Will H-1B Visa Holders Feel the Pain of Impending Cisco Layoffs?

Don Tennant

As Cisco Systems gears up for what may be the biggest round of layoffs in its history, it will be interesting to see how Cisco, one of the biggest sponsors of H-1B visas in the country, makes the decisions of who stays and who goes. It would be extremely unfortunate if it's found to have released American citizens ahead of H-1B workers strictly in the interest of cost savings.

 

Cisco won't say how many jobs it plans to eliminate, but according to a May 13 Reuters report, analysts predict the number could go as high as 4,000:

Four analysts contacted by Reuters estimated the world's largest maker of network equipment will eliminate up to 4,000 jobs in coming months, with the average forecast at 3,000. That would represent 4 percent of Cisco's 73,000 permanent workers. It also has an undisclosed number of temporary contractors. Cisco cannot point to bad market conditions or a weak economy as excuses for wielding the ax to its payroll. Instead, [Cisco CEO John] Chambers [in April] took responsibility for mistakes in managing Cisco, saying it needs to focus on its core businesses and be more disciplined about expanding into new areas. Cisco said on [May 11] that it planned to trim its workforce as part of a plan to cut some $1 billion in costs from its annual budget. Executives declined to comment on how many jobs they will cut, saying they will make an announcement by the end of summer.

According to the website myvisajobs.com, Cisco sponsored 5,220 H-1B visa workers during the period 2001 to 2010. Cisco declined to say how many H-1B workers it currently employs, but since the visa is good for three years, it seems logical that the number would be at least equal to the number of H-1B visa petitions it made in the last three years. The numbers for 2008, 2009 and 2010 are 543, 394 and 166, respectively, for a total of 1,103.

 

In an email exchange I had with Dr. Gene Nelson, an immigration reform advocate in Arlington, Va., he noted that "in the detailed 2011 statistics (FY 2010) there are a significant number of managers. It would be likely that some of those managers are managing groups of H-1Bs hired from 3rd party body shops such as Tata, etc."

 

In any case, it's probably safe to conclude that Cisco currently employs over 1,000 H-1B visa holders in the United States. In an email exchange with Kim Berry, president of the Programmers Guild, he pointed out that Cisco would have to pay the travel expenses of any H-1B workers it terminates prior to the end of their authorized employment period. That raises the specter of Cisco avoiding those terminations in order to dodge the expense of sending workers back to their home countries.

 


Now, many people would argue that Cisco should get rid of all of its H-1B workers before it lays off a single American. I am not one of those people. It's just not that simple. As the Reuters article pointed out, the restructuring that will result in the layoffs is all about exiting non-core businesses:

[S]ome of the layoffs are expected to come from businesses that Cisco pulls out of in coming months. Chambers, who has led Cisco for 16 of its 26-year history, has said he will pull out of some nonstrategic areas where Cisco is not the No. 1 or No. 2 player. [In April] Chambers said Cisco would dump its Flip video camera business, ax 550 jobs and take a charge of $300 million related to the move. He has yet to disclose which business will be next to go, but Cisco has invested heavily in a wide range of consumer products that have yet to take off, including its Umi home video conference system and home security cameras.

We don't know what percentage of Cisco's H-1B visa holders work in the non-core businesses that are going to be axed, but whatever the percentage is, it will have some impact on who gets cut. In other words, if there are few or no H-1B visa holders working in the businesses that Cisco is shuttering, terminating all of the H-1Bs before any American is laid off simply isn't feasible. On the other hand, if there are H-1B visa holders working in the doomed business units, and Cisco were to lay off Americans working in the core businesses and replace them with those H-1Bs in order to avoid having to shell out the money to send the H-1Bs home, we should all have a huge problem with that.

 

But there will be instances in which an H-1B visa holder has a particular skill set, experience level and performance record that demand his continued employment. He should not be terminated before a lesser qualified American just by virtue of his nationality and visa status. Cisco just needs to do the right thing and ensure that its U.S workers get the consideration and fair treatment they deserve.



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Jun 2, 2011 1:02 AM American Citizen American Citizen  says:

Read Goolti.com. It lists how the Indians have duped and cheated America. All the guys on H1Bs and other work visas should be kicked out of America ASAP and the jobs go to American Citizens

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Jun 2, 2011 1:29 AM Brad Reese Brad Reese  says:

Hi Don,

You can find detailed information on Cisco's layoff of U.S. Citizens here:

www.bradreese.com/blog/4-26-2011.htm

Additionally, view the 16-year Cisco employee headcount chart:

www.bradreese.com/blog/12-23-2010.htm

Furthermore, view the details of Cisco's restructuring:

www.bradreese.com/blog/5-5-2011.htm

Finally, Cisco caught in maelstrom over fake job ads to hire H-1B visa holders:

www.networkworld.com/community/?q=node/16986

Sincerely,

Brad Reese

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Jun 2, 2011 1:59 AM Bob Bob  says:

bottom line, the H-1b program and the US government's relation to the citizen tech worker is FUBAR

anything the citizen tech worker thought in terms of what he/she deserved in exchange for taxes paid or military service rendered is all a mirrage.  in terms of economic justice, it is the government's de-facto position that it owes you nothing

indentured servitude, wholesale discrimination against citizens, and betrayal of the nation's economic interests is business as usual.  the government knows this, has known it, and will continue to do and know it

we have the best government money can buy

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Jun 2, 2011 3:16 AM hoapres hoapres  says:

>> But there will be instances in which an H-1B visa holder has a particular skill set, experience level and performance record that demand his continued employment. He should not be terminated before a lesser qualified American just by virtue of his nationality and visa status. Cisco just needs to do the right thing and ensure that its U.S workers get the consideration and fair treatment they deserve. <<

Afraid Not.

One big myth that the "high tech" community has gotten away with far too long is that you have to be a true intellect.

Doesn't work.

Standard Answer.

IT is not theoretical physics were true intellects are few and far between.  IT is for the most part labor with most of it being done by people not requiring special smarts.

The true geniuses can come in on the O1 Visa.

Otherwise it should be obvious.  The H1B goes home.  For arguments sake lets assume that an H1B is "more qualified" than an American.  Tough Luck.  As long as an "American is qualified to do the job" which may NOT be "the most qualified" then the American gets the job.

Tough Luck.

If I want to hire a carpenter then I am (legally) only allowed to hire those that are authorized to work in the US.  If someone outside the US is better suited then that is just my tough luck.

That's the problem with the US is this big myth that corporations should get special treatment.  You know you got problems when the political leadership in the US doesn't call GE out when its chairman starts claiming "We are a world corporation".  At that point an American president should come out and say "No GE is a US corporation and if you want to send all the work overseas then take it all overseas and don't come back"

Imagine the CEO of Mercedes Benz telling the Germans "We are a world corporation...".  You can take it to the bank that the Germans would not put up with that CEO for more than a minute.  And the German economy is doing quite well at the moment.

Cisco's long range plans is to ship most of the work to India and rapidly run down its US operations.  The days of Cisco innovations seem to be coming to an end along with facing serious competition. 

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Jun 2, 2011 3:20 AM SiliconValleyEngineer SiliconValleyEngineer  says:

To me it seems crystal clear that this issue is about cost control and corporate profitability at the expense of American workers. Nothing else.

It's not that Cisco can't hire qualified technical people here - Cisco has terminated more highly qualified people here than any other firm in Silicon Valley.

It's not that Cisco can't design networking products using American engineers - come on, the company was started here in Silicon Valley and enjoyed much of it's early phenomenal growth using home grown engineers. Isn't it ironic that Cisco is scrambling to compete now using products designed using foreign labor?

It's not that foreign engineers are more technically competent - heck we trained these guys. We trained them in our universities here in the U.S., the same engineering education that I received. We trained them on the job - here in the U.S. We helped them establish universities of their own which follow our standards. We sent managers to their home countries to help them start up their own businesses.

We trained them to do our jobs and then we gave them our jobs.

Cisco is laying off U.S. citizens and hiring foreign workers, both here and abroad, because it's cheaper to hire foreign labor - it's really that simple. It's the same reason that the vast majority of U.S. manufacturing has been outsourced off-shore. This is just a continuation of the same trend.

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Jun 2, 2011 3:28 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to SiliconValleyEngineer

All agreed. But the fact is that the Americans who trained us are the top echelon; not the whinos who complain here.

In the order of the IQ scale:

  • IQ >140, the Americans who train us (98th percentile in the US) in great American universities.

  • IQ 120 - 140, the Indians who learnt the stuff (99th percentile in India).

  • IQ 90-100, the Americans who complain here (20th-50th percentile, US).

I would argue that the US would be very glorious if it can replace members of the third set below by members in the second set.

It would Darwinian natural selection.

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Jun 2, 2011 3:32 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to An_H1B

An_H1b has no idea whatsover what he's talking about. I personally know dozens of American with IQs of 135 and above, who are either unemployed or in lackluster careers, well below where they should be. Typical Indo-ignoramous, and btw we are are getting a taste of how they treat lower caste people back home. Notice the assumptions this guy makes about us. You don't want to lose a pecking order contest with these folks! C'mon, my fellows Americans, we've got to fight!

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Jun 2, 2011 3:41 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

Yeah, now I see why you post anonymously.  Better get your copy of Mein Kempf before they sell out.  You are one racist dude. 

Previously I was hoping you would get your GC - based on your comments I hope you don't make the cut.  I don't care if you do make 6 figures; there is more to being an American than money and education.  You clearly don't share our American values. 

I guess being in an upper caste in India has gone to your head.  You really do believe you are better than all other people. 

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Jun 2, 2011 3:45 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to R. Lawson

He/she probably already didn't make the GC cut....which is why An H1b is here rubbing it in...sour grapes :P

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Jun 2, 2011 3:48 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawson

Exactly, RL - America didn't invent racism, sexism, or any sort of blanket contempt for whole categories of people. The guestworker visa programs are bringing in people who hate us, and who wouldn't hire us or work with us even if we could prove our IQs were 150 and that we could solve all their problems and make them rich. To them we are scum. I know people who collect online remarks like An_H1B's and this is a cultural phenomenon that needs to be publicized more.

I also advise, tomorrow, when the lousy jobs report comes out, that activists fan out and post lots of comments connecting the loss of good jobs to offshoring and excessive guestworker visas. It'll be a good teachable moment. Too bad we have so many of these any more.

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Jun 2, 2011 4:11 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to R. Lawson

You call me racist. Let's look at the evidence.

At an IQ of 140, I have an American at the 98th percentile.

At an IQ of 120, I have an Indian at the 99th percentile.

If you are superficial, but logical, you would accuse me of being racist as regards Indians being INFERIOR to Americans.

I am not sure much thought went into your accusation though.

If you are logical AND NOT superficial, you will recognize that IQ is lower in the developing world as compared to the developed world, simply because of lack of access to 2 things: nutrition and education.

I estimate the average IQ of the complainer here to be in the 90-100 range, because they are not broad-minded and have likely not worked on educating themselves.

When the unemployment rate crossed 10%, the rate among college educated Americans was 6% and the rate among Americans possessing graduate/professional degrees was 2%. That is statistically significant.

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Jun 2, 2011 4:17 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to hireamerican

You are perfectly right. I have been waiting for 7 years for a greencard. However, with a greencard, I would have hoped to have the increased flexibility of working for a company as good as my employer. Given that I already work for my employer, all that is moot.

If my greencard goes south and I am asked to leave the US, no worries. I will go to another developed world or even back home to India. I am into innovation and it happens all over the world.

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Jun 2, 2011 4:22 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to R. Lawson

Being upper caste in India is actually quite embarrassing. You lose 2 ways:

  • The guilt of the crap your caste gave everyone else cuts deep.

  • The strong affirmative action as regards education and employment means you better work harder than average just to be eligible for the average.

I don't believe in the caste system. It's being reinforced purely by politicians in India so as to create walls and identify key constituents. I treat each human fairly, but I will confess to befriending those humans that are smart, broad-minded and cultured. Ergo, I don't expect to be calling any of you to the next BBQ at my place.

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Jun 2, 2011 4:26 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to An_H1B

Like I said, conceited Indo-ignoramous who feels contempt for anyone who crosses or opposes him - this is how they treat lower castes in India. If they dare to protest or speak up they get shouted down with personal insults. (and for dalits it can get even worse). No thank you to people like this. He has no idea what my or RL's or anybody's IQ is here, so he just flings verbal poo. He should get over his attitude and go home and dig some sewer lines or latrine pits - I hear that's badly needed back where he comes from. Like a two year old, he sees something he wants (nice life in clean, safe America) so he claims it. How do you think the higher castes over there got richer in the first place? Nope, if there was an attitude test for immigration, he'd flunk it. Maybe there should be.

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Jun 2, 2011 4:32 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to An_H1B

Oh, the whining and eugenic arguments of an upper-caste desi.

The next thing you'll do is whine that I spelled 'desi' with a lower case 'd'.

The fact of the matter, Mr 'No Worries' is that you should be packing your bags 'for another country that will accept you'. Now.

That list is getting shorter by the day, tho'.. you may have to go back to 'mother (kali) India', and apply your so-called 'genius' to solving problems that your caste perpetuated.

Ah, Indians. No matter WHAT the level, no sense of responsibility. Whatsoever.

-Drunken Economist

  mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  twitter.com/drunk_economist

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Jun 2, 2011 4:33 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

Haha. This is just what Adobe did to Americans Dec. '05 - laid off 500 people, 499 of which were native-born US citizens. I think you have this story backwards, Don. Rather, it is Cisco that is feeling the H-1B pain - another once-great tech company gutted and thrown into decline BY H-1B WORKERS (mostly from India). When is the media simply going to acknowledge the facts: that every single tech company that employs large numbers of foreign workers goes into decline or dies? It has happened to every single tech company except Apple, which oddly enough CLOSED its R&D in India in 2006 and still hires mostly Americans. The simple fact is, foreign workers come here because they see the US as a pot of gold waiting to be plundered. They don't help our companies, they don't help our economy, they just plunder. And now Cisco is the latest company to find this out.

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Jun 2, 2011 4:35 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

What you said was any American who disagrees with you by complaining here has an IQ slightly above that of Forest Gump - and the small minority who train you, well their super smart.

"I estimate the average IQ of the complainer here to be in the 90-100 range, because they are not broad-minded and have likely not worked on educating themselves."

The fact that you would make such assumptions causes me to question your own intelligence.  You have no idea regarding the intelligence of the people posting here and your posts are particularly insulting to those people who are working to improve a broken system.

I do quite well in this profession, and in many ways the commoditization of Indian workers forced me to step up my game.  I could no longer compete on cost alone.  That said, I'm not going to brag about my salary, education, or other accomplishments like you've done.  People who do that are obviously compensating for something.  I won't speculate as to what you are compensating for.

You'll be eating a piece of humble pie soon enough. 

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Jun 2, 2011 4:50 AM SiliconValleyEngineer SiliconValleyEngineer  says: in response to An_H1B

My IQ is in the 99th percentile.

I am working as an engineer in Silicon Valley.

I quit Cisco after 9 years, so that I wouldn't have to continue to work with people like you there.

What do you say to that?

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Jun 2, 2011 4:58 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to SiliconValleyEngineer

So I'm doing my genealogy on Ancestry.com right now, for the kids, and I've discovered the darndest thing. Not only is there a signficant military participation by American relatives who I knew during life, but I'm finding a number of guys - sons of immigrants and even THE IMMIGRANTS THEMSELVES who signed up for the military during WWI. Guys who'd just gotten off the boat from Germany signed up to go fight - Germany. Because they wanted to be Americans, and they understood that there's a price to be paid for that honor.

Contrast that to the attitude we're seeing here. That America is just one big fat pot of gold, and they want to stick their hands in deep. Yes, it's wonderful, safe, advanced, and CLEAN compared to where they're from. And none of them has a clue - or a care - to know how it got that way. I've actually run into some of them who think that we have plumbing because we looted India during colonial days. And they say our kids 'dunno much about history.'

If it sounds like "An_H1b"'s attitude disgusts me, you read me right.

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Jun 2, 2011 5:06 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to SiliconValleyEngineer

Cisco is likely to offer a targeted buyout to the long term employees over 50.  Cisco is probably going to be laying off more than 4,000 people and is serious about moving most of the US operations overseas.

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Jun 2, 2011 5:12 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to hoapres

Well...If Cisco moves it's operations overseas, then Cisco will have to lower the prices on their products here in the US....

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Jun 2, 2011 5:35 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to R. Lawson

You're embittered by what you perceive as poor internet etiquette. I am however driven by a simple need to make a point. My educational qualifications are pertinent to that point and hence they made their way in.

OK, I've seen your various posts (from before) and you are clearly not in the below average IQ range. In the case of this particular sample of posts, you have many and hence boost the average IQ here. My assessment of an IQ of 90-100 surrounds those people who complain about the H-1B system by employing arguments such as the supposed inferiority of Indians, or the fact that America should bend over backwards to keep them perpetually employed.

That the H-1B is flawed is quite well known. However, what many people here refuse to see is the trajectory of where the program is headed (and it's clearly for the better). That said, it also may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater because in eliminating fraud and misuse, it has made it unattractive for companies to bring in external talent.

Also, it would benefit a lot of the people here to look at the bigger picture. The balance sheet of the modern company is always going to miss the biggest asset it has...human capital. America has been the magnet that attracts human capital unlike any place else. A consequence of getting smart people from elsewhere is to increase the competition for the smart people that already live here.

Look at manufacturing. In the 1970s, barely 15% of Americans got college degrees. As the jobs starting moving east, Americans went to college more to get white collar jobs. Now 30% of all Americans get college degrees inspite of the ridiculous growth rate in college tuition feels. The American thing to do is to adapt. The un-American thing to do is to complain and look for scapegoats.

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Jun 2, 2011 5:40 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to An_H1B

So guess my degree level.

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Jun 2, 2011 5:56 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

Guess my degree level,too? I work in IT and make decent money.

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Jun 2, 2011 6:03 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

"The un-American thing to do is to complain and look for scapegoats."

I think we have been very adaptive - as you pointed out.  Many of us have accumulated large amounts of debt to adapt (get degrees) after manufacturing left.  Now we are told that perhaps we need to adapt once more.

We are a nation first and a market second.  Changing careers is costly and this notion that Americans should be prepared to change not only jobs but careers many times in their life is not sustainable. 

Free trade should have been a means to achieve a goal - instead it was the goal in and of itself.  As a result millions of jobs vanished almost overnight and we actually drove up a massive trade debt.  People who were forced out of manufacturing went to college and many pursued engineering or IT.  Asking them to throw that all away once again is too much to ask.

It's wrong to expect an entire nation to adapt every-time the prevailing economic minds decide it's time for a dramatic shift.  The decision for the United States to make manufacturing the sacrificial lamb was wrong headed, and any laws or policies that give our foreign competitors an advantage on our own soil is also wrong headed.

You talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to immigration - that is exactly what happened to American workers since we liberalized our trade laws.

Let me ask you one simple question.  Do you believe it is fair that we allow companies whose primary business is to send jobs offshore to sponsor foreign workers to help accomplish that goal?

All these people you call "whiners" have faced fundamental unfairness and a system that props up our global competitors.  When we had the big trade negotiations with Japan in the 80s we said "welcome to our market, but hire our people".  I think it is absurd that we allow Indian companies to import workers when we have plenty of able body people that are either already trained to do the job or if not willing to learn. 

If Infosys, Wipro, Tata, or any other offshore outsourcing firm wants to do business in our nation and send some of that work back to India (or elsewhere) I fully expect them to hire our people.  That is not unreasonable.  That is smart trade. 

Indian companies want a win-win relationship where they are winners both times.  Sorry that doesn't work for me or for most Americans.  Like good "adaptable" Americans we are fighting back.

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Jun 2, 2011 6:20 AM HIREAMERICAN HIREAMERICAN  says: in response to R. Lawson

We need to fight back more......some bills that were pased yesterday and today....

www.numbersusa.com/content/news/june-2-2011/rep-cravaack-amendment-strengthen-interior-enforcement-passes-house.html

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Jun 2, 2011 7:32 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to An_H1B

"IQ 120 - 140, the Indians who learnt the stuff (99th percentile in India)."

It has been well documented that the average IQ in India is 81 and in the USA is 98. We don't need you. It is an absurdity to think that the most innovative and technologically advanced civilization in the world needs help from a country that cannot even build enough toilets or run a simple sporting event properly. Your myth of the Indian Super-IT Genius is a fraud. There is no such person. Everything you know you learned from us. Americans built the IT industry long before you ever saw a keyboard. We don't need you. 13 years of importing you to work here has turned the USA into a 3rd world resembling India. You are all conmen plundering America and everyone knows it. I would argue that we've given you more than enough chance to prove yourselves and that you've failed miserably.

Sorry, this is America. You don't perform, you get fired. You haven't perfomed as promised over the past 13 years so now it's time to fire you all and send you home.

My IQ is 160 and I've worked at both Apple and Sony just to name a few. And I was insturmental to the success of PlayStation by writing that platform's audio development tools. IQ 90 who complains here? I don't think so.

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Jun 2, 2011 7:39 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to An_H1B

"At an IQ of 140, I have an American at the 98th percentile."

Except that your IQ is not 140. Boasting as usual.

My IQ is 160. Have you worked at Apple AND Sony? Did you work on software for PlayStation at Sony? I did. Why are you here working and I am not? You're outright retarded compared to my IQ. Why are you here? Why, as a US citizen am I unemployed? We all know the answer: cheap labor for corporations, and ethnic cleansing on the part of Indians against Americans in their own country.

www.topix.com/forum/world/australia/TMUIHMR8G7VLVIJSB

Go read "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" which is a scientific study that says you and your people drag the US economy down worse than any othee ethnic group.

Go home. Your game is up. You've been exposed. Found out. Uncovered. The mask has been ripped off.

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Jun 2, 2011 7:42 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Dolores

"I know people who collect online remarks like An_H1B's and this is a cultural phenomenon that needs to be publicized more. "

You must mean like this highly skilled guest worker from India who is obviously here to help America:

From: "Rajesh Kumar Ramachandran


Subject: Listen to me A******!!


Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT)

Rajesh Kumar Ramachandran has sent you a message.

Date: 5/19/2010

Subject: Listen to me A******!!

Now listen carefully to me a*****.. dont just bark around in the corner like a rabies stricken stray dog about your pathetic views about politics and jobs. If your insecure about your skills and abilities thats your f***** problem not Indians or any other politicians.. Well you want me to provoke you well then hear this, we are gonna take all your jobs away.. we gonna make sure that you dont even have money to buy s*** and eat, we gonna take evrything thatwas yours.. we gonna drape the Statue of Liberty with a saree (you dont know wahta saree iis, well its a dress which Indian women wear).. now get your f****** stinking face out of here A******!!!!!

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Jun 2, 2011 7:43 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to An_H1B

"If my greencard goes south and I am asked to leave the US, no worries. I will go to another developed world or even back home to India. I am into innovation and it happens all over the world."

Not in Japan you won't. They won't even let you in.

As for innovation in India, where is the commercial operating system from India anyone uses?

Doesn't exist IQ 140 genius!

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Jun 2, 2011 7:49 AM spell checker? spell checker?  says: in response to An_H1B

If this self-proclaimed genius is so smart, why can't he use an American English spell checker? 

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Jun 2, 2011 7:52 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Dolores

Why did Americans have to fight the revolutionary war, WWI, WWII and all the rest to win and keep America safe while India didn't help us at all?

And why do foreign guest workers who didn't have to fight and die to save America get to have good jobs here while the best American workers get sidelined? Because OUR ancestors and families fought and died to save this country, and YOURS DIDN'T, we deserve America and you don't.

Guest workers only want in to America when there are easy pickings. Let's require them to serve on the front lines first and see how many of them want to come here.

If you're not willing to prove allegiance to the USA with your life, you have no business being here.

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Jun 2, 2011 8:00 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to hoapres

What is the fate of all these IT companies ruined by foreign labor?

Well let's see....

1) PeopleSoft - invaded in 2000, collapsed, sold off to Oracle.

2) Sun - invaded in 2001, collapsed, sold off to Oracle.

3) Cisco - invaded in 2003, collapsed........

Anyone want to start a betting pool on which company Oracle will be buying next? LOLZ!

Oracle's new company slogan is going to be:

"Oracle.... where once-great IT companies ruined by foreign labor go to die".

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Jun 2, 2011 8:09 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to An_H1B

"I am however driven by a simple need to make a point. My educational qualifications are pertinent to that point and hence they made their way in."

You must mean like IIT which is so bad it can't even get international accreditation. Also google "Duke Asian cheating scandal".

"America has been the magnet that attracts human capital unlike any place else."

You mean America has been the magnet that attracts every 3rd world loser and conman. America was booming before you got here. You want to come here because Americans did all the hard work of creating the IT industry while you and your country was sitting around for 5000 years doing nothing. Now that we've built it, you want it.

That is why you want to come here. Otherwise, you'd be facing perpetual unemployment at home.

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Jun 2, 2011 8:10 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Wakjob

www.numbersusa.com/content/

This site makes it easy to keep up with upcoming bills and amendments, and also to send faxes to elected reps on what laws to support.

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Jun 2, 2011 8:14 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to R. Lawson

"We are a nation first and a market second.  Changing careers is costly and this notion that Americans should be prepared to change not only jobs but careers many times in their life is not sustainable."

Let's see.... Americans created the railroads.... and the auto industry which was given away to Japan. And the electronics industry which was given away to Japan and now China. And modern manufacturing which was invented by Americans and given away to China. And software, which is being given away to India as we speak.

How many new industries have India and China given to Americans? After all, they are both more advanced than we are and they've both had 5000 to do it.

India and China, the 2 countries with the largest populations are not pulling their weight in the world in terms of creating new industries to employ Americans.

America is not a perpetual jobs factory whose purpose is to churn out endless new industries on the backs of American workers for the rest of the lazy world to take over and enjoy.

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Jun 2, 2011 9:14 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says:

Don't make me turn this car around.

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Jun 2, 2011 9:21 AM FormerH1B FormerH1B  says:

Wakjob, Sony is a Japanese company, and I guess you were quite shitty given that PS has lost its dominant market position ? I guess Japanese companies shouldn't have hired inferior Americans where superior Japanese talent was available.

Before you blow you head, that was sarcasm. Sony was hardly innovative company after late 90s, seriously if you pull Sony card as cutting edge it does look a bit out of place, world has moved on since 80s if you haven't noticed.

BTW, you all get to jump on me, I'm non-Indian, former H1B holder who grabbed tiger by its tale by moving to Asia 6 years ago. And am I glad that I did that. I found this page by following link from another forum that I sometimes stop by for educational value only. I found that other forum few years back when I tried to evaluate a potential offer and even though it wasn't useful for that purpose it has remained as a place to stop by as it shows similarity of reaction of those who are unable to adjust to the shifting economic landscape.

As a former USSR inhabitant I get to meet quite a few people who keep bitching how good it was for them and that they have right to the job, how they got robbed by evil capitalist pigs, etc. Common traits based on my observation: rigidness, loss of creativity, inability to critically evaluate himself/herself (though females show quite less of that, at least in former USSR, absolute majority of reminiscenting whiners are males). Substantial number of them show latent hostility to churkas (derogatory russian sleng for non-white) that smells of racial prejudice as they feel that system is not fair and churkas are partially to blame for that, they are unable to comprehend or unwilling to admit that they simply suck and that's the reason for their loss in economic race. Demonization of US as the evil of this world and US corporations is widespread and common place.

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Jun 2, 2011 9:54 AM FormerH1B FormerH1B  says: in response to An_H1B

IMHO earnings are influenced by creativity rather than IQ and correlation between IQ & creativity is not strictly linear. Above certain threshold there is little correlation between IQ & creativity.

More can be found here:

www.megasociety.org/noesis/149/iq&;pear.html

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Jun 2, 2011 10:56 AM hoapres hoapres  says:

Cisco the inside scoop.

I talked to a couple of people at Cisco so take this for what it is worth.  Some of the sources have been reliable in the past but many are dubious.

>> eliminate up to 4,000 jobs  <<

It may go up to 5,000

>> In any case, it's probably safe to conclude that Cisco currently employs over 1,000 H-1B visa holders in the United States. In an email exchange with Kim Berry, president of the Programmers Guild, he pointed out that Cisco would have to pay the travel expenses of any H-1B workers it terminates prior to the end of their authorized employment period. That raises the specter of Cisco avoiding those terminations in order to dodge the expense of sending workers back to their home countries. <<

While the requirement to pay the travel expenses is correct, it is not a factor in terminating an H1B.  Assuming every H1B at Cisco claimed to be a 1000 is laid off with a travel expense of $2,000 (actually much lower than that since Cisco's travel department can get a bulk deal on airline tickets) then the total cost is $2 million which is a drop in the bucket for Cisco.

Also terminated Cisco employees are routed through HR which has an allocated budget for this expense.

>> We don't know what percentage of Cisco's H-1B visa holders work in the non-core businesses that are going to be axed, but whatever the percentage is, it will have some impact on who gets cut. <<

Cisco is laying off on a project basis.  If the project is not feasible then said employees get laid off regardless of being H1B or not. Cisco is going to offer a severance package to long term employees over 50 to mitigate the amount of layoffs.  If the project involved is currently Indian or H1B infested then the Americans are more likely to be laid off as one of the criteria for layoffs will be performance appraisals which at Cisco tend to be politically biased. 

>>  In other words, if there are few or no H-1B visa holders working in the businesses that Cisco is shuttering, terminating all of the H-1Bs before any American is laid off simply isn't feasible. <<

While it would be feasible, that is not going to happen.  My Cisco sources are pretty emphatic that the layoffs are going to be cost driven which implies at least a slight bias against American workers.  The American workers tend to be long term employees before the H1B invasion so they are more likely to get laid off.

Cisco is extremely reluctant to hire any new permanent employees and those very few will be in CORE Cisco businesses.  Otherwise workforce needs will be met with the contingent workforce. 

>> On the other hand, if there are H-1B visa holders working in the doomed business units, and Cisco were to lay off Americans working in the core businesses and replace them with those H-1Bs in order to avoid having to shell out the money to send the H-1Bs home, we should all have a huge problem with that. <<

See above.

The cost of sending ALL the H1Bs home for Cisco is a non event.  $2 million is nothing for Cisco. 

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Jun 2, 2011 11:06 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to FormerH1B

I agree.  My guess is that most people in software have higher than average IQs - but I wouldn't use that as any indication as to how well someone will perform their job.

I'm less concerned with your potential to be smart as I am with your ability to apply the intelligence you already have.

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Jun 2, 2011 11:54 AM Allen in TX Allen in TX  says:

We have truly abdicated responsibility for governing to the corporations either through indifference or allowing rampant lobbying via business and foreign governments. The United States historically functioned for the benefit of its CITIZENS, at least those are formative principles that I was taught throughout government and history classes. Companies have enjoyed the revenue and support of establishing business in the US, then turning a blind eye to those customers and employees that initially made them profitable.

I don't believe our principles have changed dramatically from when the nation was established and all elected official take an oath to support the US Constitution...

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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Jun 3, 2011 1:03 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

This is one of the better search engines.

I was curious about one local company - Nielsen Media.  They have hundreds of workers from India on site, yet only 10 applications in 2010.  That's because they are all Infosys employees.

Don, pay close attention to the LCAs from companies like Infosys.  They don't file an LCA per person - they do it in buckets:

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=0&;min=1&max=14&state=10&workers=0&searchcompany=infosys

So one LCA is for 100 workers.  That tells me no due diligence goes into evaluating each of the workers and they are all just rubber stamped.  So to the lawyers saying "yackety yack, workers are protected by the LCA, yacket yack, lie lie lie" that simply isn't the case.

Check out how much Infosys was certified to pay 100 Programmer/Analysts in Orlando:

CERTIFIED     50     INFOSYS TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED     PROGRAMMER ANALYST     $36,795.00     yr     FL     ORLANDO     75024     2010

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=0&;min=1&max=14&state=10&workers=0&searchcompany=infosys

So Don, this really is about cheap labor.  Before you dismiss that claim, simply do your own data mining of the LCA database and you will see that most of the applications are for rock bottom wages.

Guys, I personally think we should focus our energies and declare all out war on the body shops.  We can make that argument, the general public will agree with us in large numbers, and politicians will be backed into a corner during a time when the economy is on everyones minds.

It's harder for us to challenge say Microsoft because their wages are higher - so from a practical perspective I think Indian bodyshops like Infosys, Wipro, and Tata need to be where we really make our strongest case.

We welcomed Japanese automakers into our nation under one condition: build them here and hire our people.  We need to demand the same from Indian companies.  If they want to engage in their offshoring business in the United States, they need to hire our people.  Trade negotiations are just that - negotiations.  The goal should be a deal where both parties win.  India wants to be the only winner in this arrangement and that must stop!

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Jun 3, 2011 1:07 AM Jobs4Americans Jobs4Americans  says: in response to An_H1B

We cannot let this entitled, arrogant H-1b have the last word - We must prevent this SOB, his employer and thousands of other greedy abusers of loopholes in US immigration law from destroying the lives of American tech workers and their families at Cisco and countless other companies. 

What's being done to stop Cisco from repeating the Microsoft layoff debacle? What's happened legally, politically since 2009 - when Microsoft laid off 5000 American citizens (zero corporate visa workers) and replaced them with over 5000 foreign visa workers?  

Can fellow Americans please share ideas, contacts and resources to help fight this - NOW?  Please share legislative bills, law enforcement agencies who can act,  EEOC/DOJ/DOL and other government agencies who can do anything to stop the crime, elected officials not blinded by India Inc payoffs,   media - people and organizations in positions of influence to help end this fraudulent disaster?   How can we organize, and who can help us get there?

We need to send this arrogant, SOB packing, sooner, not later - and never let him return - and we need to help the hardworking Americans at Cisco fight for their jobs.

Thank you 

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Jun 3, 2011 1:10 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to R. Lawson

I agree that Microsoft and Cisco wages may not convince anyone. The rest is where the evidence is. Although I have a suspicion that these two companies may also be underpaying for the skills they demand.

I have Zipcode up for you now sir.

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Jun 3, 2011 1:17 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

You did this?  Great job!

Do you have some ETL process to bring in the data?  I had something about 5 years ago but most data at the time was fax and it was really messed up.  I never put it online because I didn't have the time to keep it updated every year.

If you have scrubbed data and can expose that via web service, WCF, JSON, or whatever I'd like to integrate with a phone app.  Also, I want to produce some printable reports that people can easily generate using SSRS.  I'm a .net developer and I see you used ASPX so we'll probably be talking the same language.

On the BI/reporting side, I want to give people averages and expose the "worst of the worst", and also run custom reports for whatever company they are interested in.

Contact me offline if interested - relawson at sdsflorida dotcom.  Anything I produce could live on your site if you wanted it.

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Jun 3, 2011 1:20 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to R. Lawson

Besides 2005, 2011 is a record year for Infosys filings with nearly 2000.  That is amazing given the economic situation and an overall decline in H-1b filings.

This is exactly why we need good BI and charts - so we can quickly and easily present a case that people can visualize and easily understand.

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Jun 3, 2011 1:24 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

Poker player, I noticed this disclaimer:

" A stated wage of $25,480,666 (listed as hourly) is most likely erroneous data and undoing the conversion will usully result in the correct salary (in this case divide by 2080 for hourly). I am open to hear any suggestions. Also, many thanks to the FLC Data Center for proving the .mdb's to work with."

I think it is important that we remove obvious errors from data because people run queries (say averages) and that one bad entry can have a huge impact on overall calculations.

Nice that you got the MDB file - I had to work with delimited text which wasn't always delimited correctly.

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Jun 3, 2011 1:38 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to R. Lawson

I could hardly believe Infosys alone brought in 85,000 H1Bs last year. And 160,000 in 2005. There are some errors in the data (not mine) but the Infosys data is actually real believe it or not.

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Jun 3, 2011 1:41 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to R. Lawson

"I think it is important that we remove obvious errors from data because people run queries (say averages) and that one bad entry can have a huge impact on overall calculations."

It is indeed raising the Average wage 10% in many cases

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Jun 3, 2011 2:14 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to pokerplayer

I don't know that they can do blanket filings any more. It may have been outlawed. But your figures will still be valid because most of those who came in on the blankets are still here. It's a myth that they ever really have to go home.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:16 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

For time being I set default "maximum wage" to $3,000,000 to at least filter out the extreme cases of error, this however removes a few that are legit.

Is removing obvious errors legal? Anyone know?

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Jun 3, 2011 2:17 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> Since Cisco wouldn't say how many H-1Bs it currently employs, <<

Surprisingly enough I agree with you noting that this should be a "no brainer".

After all H1Bs are "guest workers".  It would seem only natural that the number of "guest workers" should be available to the public.

>>  I simply went with the calculation you see in the post, which was supplied to me by Dr. Gene Nelson in my e-mail exchange with him. <<

Not picking on you.

Did you consider simply calling up Cisco and ask ?  I did and they would not give me the number.

>> He was just saying we can assume it has to be at least that number (1,103).  <<

Would you not agree that it would be a good idea to have a good ballpark figure of the number of H1Bs.  Clearly we have a big difference between a 1,000 and 30,000.

>> I have no special way of getting the accurate number, <<

Not picking on you but journalists in general.  Did YOU (with YOU referencing journalists in general) call Cisco and ask ?

>>  so anyone who has more accurate information is encouraged to supply it, as a couple people in this string have purported to do . <<

"Purported" might mean you won't check to see if the 30,000 number is accurate.

Because if the 30,000 number turns out to be accurate then your basic contention that some of these H1Bs really are needed becomes more suspect.  30,000 makes the argument "It is all about cheap labor" a LOT more credible than if the number is 1,000.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:18 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to Dolores

Well they obviously were not outlawed last year. Why do you think they were outlawed since?

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Jun 3, 2011 2:23 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hoapres

Just for the record, 30,000 is for 2007-2010. For the years 2008-2010, it is 15,000. Not that it really matters. 1500% error is still kinda off the mark.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:34 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to pokerplayer

It would just seem to me at least to be "common sense" that the number of H1Bs employed at Cisco.  This might sound odd but the public really does have the right to know how many "guest workers" are employed at a company that is about to do a major layoff.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:36 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to pokerplayer

Well, someone just told me that they had, but I can't find a reference for it. In fact, I'm finding someone on Murthy's forum in 2011 talking about being part of a blanket filing. And I'm finding references to blanket LCAs for H-1Bs. So if they're still legal, since the recession and all the layoffs, that would prove that it's all about cheap labor and discrimination against American job applicants.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:40 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

Also unknown is the number of H1Bs as part of Cisco's contingent workforce along with other "guest workers" on visas other than H1Bs.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:46 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to hoapres

Yes, in spite of the Neufeld memo, the placing of workers by desi workships is continuing under the radar.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:50 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

And the cynic in me says Don will publish some more articles to put this on the back burner.  Of course Don may happily prove my theory to be wrong.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:51 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

>>According to the website myvisajobs.com, Cisco sponsored 5,220 H-1B visa workers during the period 2001 to 2010. Cisco declined to say how many H-1B workers it currently employs, but since the visa is good for three years, it seems logical that the number would be at least equal to the number of H-1B visa petitions it made in the last three years. The numbers for 2008, 2009 and 2010 are 543, 394 and 166, respectively, for a total of 1,103.

myvisajobs.com not only ignores the # Jobs per LCA, but there numbers are apparently off even ignoring that fact. Number of LCA's CERTIFIED  is 549, 395, 394 for 2008, 2009, 2010. I noticed they a RARELY denied at Cisco. In 2008, every single one was certified.

h1bistro.com/trends.aspx?min=0&;max=15&state=0&workers=0&searchcompany=cisco%20systems

shows about 35,000 since 2002 (i have temporarily disabled 2001 graphing data due to extreme clerical errors until I contact FLC) as compared to 5,000 since 2001. I doubt 2001 had many as it looks like Cisco did not really get that many H1B's until 2007 when they went crazy and got 15,000. Many interesting things lie in that data. I wonder why they provide the databases but no decent interface??

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Jun 3, 2011 2:52 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to R. Lawson

US Companies like IBM,Accenture, Deloitte etc had no choice but to follow INFOSYS, TCS etc...If not they would have gone out of business by now.

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Jun 3, 2011 2:53 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Dolores

BTW H-1Bs, if they play their cards right, can apply for and receive unemployment, and can be unemployed for a long time and not have to go back. The trick is, do they have an application for adjustment of status underway? Once they do, it seems like anything goes. This thread is one of many that helps to illustrate that: immigrationvoice.org/forum/forum105-immigrant-visa/1598332-unemployment-benefits-on-ead.html#post1964475

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Jun 3, 2011 2:54 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to R. Lawson

>> So Don, this really is about cheap labor.  Before you dismiss that claim, simply do your own data mining of the LCA database and you will see that most of the applications are for rock bottom wages. <<

Likely a forlorn hope that Don will do anything but dismiss that claim.

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Jun 3, 2011 3:41 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Don Tennant

There was a time when one could expect that this would not happen in North America. Not anymore....this is typical in third world countries like India.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jessica_Lall

www.siasat.com/english/news/22-yr-old-gang-raped-killed-politicians-son

And guess where most of the aid money goes that we give to countries like India and Pakisthan....it goes into the pockets of the politicians....like the one below

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363056/Indian-politicians-14m-wedding-son--complete-18-000-guests-replica-Rajastani-palace.html

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Jun 3, 2011 3:46 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hoapres

h1bistro.com/trends.aspx?min=0&;max=15&state=0&workers=0&searchcompany=cisco%20systems

So the H1B's have been trained so now they fire the Americans? Is that what happened here? By looking at the graph it seems kind of obvious. When they get laid off we can check if the job titles seem like the same as the lay-offs.

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Jun 3, 2011 4:05 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to pokerplayer

>>So the H1B's have been trained so now they fire the Americans? 

EXACTLY

The soon to be laid off Americans as a condition of receiving their severance train the Indian H1Bs the requisite skills so the jobs can be exported to India.

This is old news and has been happening for over a decade.  One of the first published cases was the Bank of America facility in Concord, CA which shut down their IT department shipping the jobs to India.

It is claimed that Tata Consulting Services was part of that job migration and that the soon to be laid off Americans were forced to endure presentations which condensed to :

Americans and Indians working proudly together by training Indians to export jobs to increase bank profits by laying off overpriced American workers.

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Jun 3, 2011 4:37 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, use zazona.com's LCA database to find how many H-1Bs each company applies for. However, remember this is only part of the picture since under L-1s, Indian bodyshops like InfoSys, Tata, etc can and do bring in unlimited numbers of foreign workers claiming intra-company transfer and then sending them to work at client sites, which is illegal. H-1B is just the tip of the iceberg and as we saw in the InfoSys case, they are using all kinds of visas illegally to get their people into the country. So relying on H-1B numbers is kind of meaningless.

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Jun 3, 2011 4:50 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

What we need to remember is that an LCA doesn't always equate to a worker.  Infosys may apply for 100 project managers say in Tampa (which really happened, and approved) and then like good body shoppers start trying to sell labor still in India... and they may not be able to fill 100 under the terms of that LCA.  In fact, they may not have 100 project managers on the bench.

So, in my view the best use of the LCA is the wage reported.  It is a good indicator of what Infosys is paying their employees, and not as good of an indicator as to the number of workers they actually sponsor.

What we need are actual visas approved and arrival/departure information.  We also need to know not only the sponsoring company, but in the case of body shops the job site.  Without that information we can only guess as to exact numbers.

At the end of the day we need to fight with all our might against the body shops.  They do us the most harm. 

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Jun 3, 2011 5:03 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to hoapres

"Likely a forlorn hope that Don will do anything but dismiss that claim."

I think Don is genuinely curious about the program.  He will certainly look at the data, and give his view on what he discovers.

My guess is that he will find companies that he believes are using the visa properly, and I can't imagine him then comparing those results to the body shoppers and conclude that they too are using the program correctly.

As to the body shoppers, the data speaks volumes.  The general population is going to look at Microsoft and Cisco salaries - and although they may be low for that region those salaries will appear high to the average American because they don't understand the IT job market and probably earn far less.  The body shop numbers are going to raise eyebrows and I think our best argument against the program.

There are even American companies upset that these body shoppers from overseas are hogging all the visas, so we can win support from the business community as well.  In short, pick your battles.  If we battle Microsoft we may come out looking greedy to the average person.  If we battle Infosys we get more allies and we come out the aggrieved party.

What Infosys and the bodyshops are doing just sounds fundamentally unfair.  We can take them on and we can easily win that debate.  This debate has been ongoing for decades and changes won't happen overnight, so we need to really tackle what matters to us the most.  In my mind, that is clearly the body shoppers.

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Jun 3, 2011 5:05 AM nol1 nol1  says: in response to Wakjob

Even companies like IBM bring L-1s, not just the Indian body shops.

There is a pharma company in Philadelphia where the entire third floor is filled with IBM L-1 resources in production support roles.

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Jun 3, 2011 5:06 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawson

Don't look now, but the government that supports the bodyshops is not done trying to get back their pre-fee-hike sweetheart deal.

www.deccanherald.com/content/166247/india-raise-h1b-visa-issue.html

Our workers have never gotten this much support from our government.

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Jun 3, 2011 5:49 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Jobs4Americans

Pull any and all money out of the stock market. That ought to fix everything.

Can you imagine what a racket the 401k is? It is an endless pipeline of PLAY money for Wall street :P

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Jun 3, 2011 5:51 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to FormerH1B

"Wakjob, Sony is a Japanese company"

So what? What's your point? I worked in the US PlayStation division run by Americans. All my coworkers Were Americans. At the time (2001) Sony and PlayStation were boming and dominant. If they lost their dominant position today, it must be guestworkers who csused it, just like at every other company you touch.

And Apple isn't a Japanese company. It's American.

"and I guess you were quite shitty given that PS has lost its dominant market position ?"

Hardly. I was instrumental to the success of PlayStation since i wrote the entire suite of audio development tools for the platform. No games could have been published without those tools. I'd say I was instrumental to the platform's success.

"I guess Japanese companies shouldn't have hired inferior Americans where superior Japanese talent was available."

If you knew anything about Japan you would know they tried to take over software in the early 90s and failed miserably. Where is the Japanese OS anyone uses? Doesn't exist. Google "Why zen software doesn't come from Japan". Ever hear of comparative advantage? Americans are the best in software, that's just the way it is. Next you'll be tellng us eskimos makes better NBA players than black Americans.

"Before you blow you head, that was sarcasm. Sony was hardly innovative company after late 90s, seriously if you pull Sony card as cutting edge it does look a bit out of place, world has moved on since 80s if you haven't noticed."

I worked there in 2000-2001. Don't blame me for their downfall. And Sony is still huge - employing over a million people worldwide. And you failed to mention Apple. Not exactly what you'd call declining or "80s". Perhaps you can tell us which companies you've worked at. I can guarantee you it's not at world-class companies like Apple and Sony. You obviously know very little about Japan.

"BTW, you all get to jump on me, I'm non-Indian, former H1B holder who grabbed tiger by its tale by moving to Asia 6 years ago. And am I glad that I did that".

Another failed conman who helped ripoff and destroy the US economy and then fled. Thanks for admitting it. You had to move to Asia because people like you destroyed all the jobs here. Don't confuse mere bank robbery without producing anything in an economy.

"As a former USSR inhabitant I get to meet quite a few people who keep bitching how good it was for them and that they have right to the job, how they got robbed by evil capitalist pigs, etc. Common traits based on my observation: rigidness, loss of creativity, inability to critically evaluate himself/herself (though females show quite less of that, at least in former USSR, absolute majority of reminiscenting whiners are males). Substantial number of them show latent hostility to churkas (derogatory russian sleng for non-white) that smells of racial prejudice as they feel that system is not fair and churkas are partially to blame for that, they are unable to comprehend or unwilling to admit that they simply suck and that's the reason for their loss in economic race. Demonization of US as the evil of this world and US corporations is widespread and common place."

Oh so you're Russian. Nice failed empire you have there. Where is the Russian OS. Amercians suck? We're the only ones in the world capable of producing a working commercial OS anyone wants. Where is Putin's vaunted Russian Silicon Valley? Doesn't exist! You had to come begging for a job in the USA because you ruined your own empire and by your being here, you ruined ours too. Thanks. Failure follows oiu wherever you go.

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Jun 3, 2011 5:52 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Dolores
Jun 3, 2011 5:52 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to FormerH1B

"Wakjob, Sony is a Japanese company"

So what?What's your point?I worked in the US PlayStation division run by Americans.All my coworkers Were Americans.At the time (2001) Sony and PlayStation were boming and dominant.If they lost their dominant position today, it must be guestworkers who csused it, just like at every other company you touch.

And Apple isn't a Japanese company.It's American.

"and I guess you were quite shitty given that PS has lost its dominant market position ?"

Hardly.I was instrumental to the success of PlayStation since i wrote the entire suite of audio development tools for the platform.No games could have been published without those tools.I'd say I was instrumental to the platform's success.

"I guess Japanese companies shouldn't have hired inferior Americans where superior Japanese talent was available."

If you knew anything about Japan you would know they tried to take over software in the early 90s and failed miserably.Where is the Japanese OS anyone uses?Doesn't exist.Google "Why zen software doesn't come from Japan".Ever hear of comparative advantage?Americans are the best in software, that's just the way it is.Next you'll be tellng us eskimos makes better NBA players than black Americans.

"Before you blow you head, that was sarcasm.Sony was hardly innovative company after late 90s, seriously if you pull Sony card as cutting edge it does look a bit out of place, world has moved on since 80s if you haven't noticed."

I worked there in 2000-2001.Don't blame me for their downfall.And Sony is still huge - employing over a million people worldwide.And you failed to mention Apple.Not exactly what you'd call declining or "80s".Perhaps you can tell us which companies you've worked at.I can guarantee you it's not at world-class companies like Apple and Sony.You obviously know very little about Japan.

"BTW, you all get to jump on me, I'm non-Indian, former H1B holder who grabbed tiger by its tale by moving to Asia 6 years ago.And am I glad that I did that".

Another failed conman who helped ripoff and destroy the US economy and then fled.Thanks for admitting it.You had to move to Asia because people like you destroyed all the jobs here.Don't confuse mere bank robbery without producing anything in an economy.

"As a former USSR inhabitant I get to meet quite a few people who keep bitching how good it was for them and that they have right to the job, how they got robbed by evil capitalist pigs, etc.Common traits based on my observation:rigidness, loss of creativity, inability to critically evaluate himself/herself (though females show quite less of that, at least in former USSR, absolute majority of reminiscenting whiners are males).Substantial number of them show latent hostility to churkas (derogatory russian sleng for non-white) that smells of racial prejudice as they feel that system is not fair and churkas are partially to blame for that, they are unable to comprehend or unwilling to admit that they simply suck and that's the reason for their loss in economic race.Demonization of US as the evil of this world and US corporations is widespread and common place."

Oh so you're Russian.Nice failed empire you have there.Where is the Russian OS.Amercians suck?We're the only ones in the world capable of producing a working commercial OS anyone wants.Where is Putin's vaunted Russian Silicon Valley? Reply

Jun 3, 2011 5:52 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to FormerH1B
Doesn't exist!You had to come begging for a job in the USA because you ruined your own empire and by your being here, you ruined ours too.Thanks.Failure follows oiu wherever you go.

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Jun 3, 2011 5:54 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to FormerH1B

"Above certain threshold there is little correlation between IQ & creativity."

Since you brought up creativity, can you name the new industries or products created by India or China. Chess? Noodles? Compass? Firecrackers? That's it? In 10,000 years of combined history, that's it!!! Ha! What a joke. India and China are the most uncreative countries in the world. We don't need these people who have inventrd next to nothing.

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Jun 3, 2011 6:04 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to R. Lawson

>> I think Don is genuinely curious about the program. <<

I don't think so but I hope you are right.

>>  He will certainly look at the data, and give his view on what he discovers. <<

Not if history is any guide.  "Wandering Don" will simply ignore the issues brought by this article and move on.

One example being "Over 50 stop whining and get back to work".  Don brought out a "success story" of sorts but "ran away" when it was discovered that the "get back to work" was a customer service rep job at AT&T paying no more than $14 an hour.

Don never answered nor apparently will he answer the question : Is getting a $14 an hour job a success ??

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Jun 3, 2011 6:09 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to R. Lawson

So if Infosys applies for 100 project Managers and gets approved, Dont they pay 100 times the fee? I feel like 100 workers means 100 workers. I refuse to ignore the total and go with just salary. At the same time, I agree with everything you said and would like to investigate these "blanket applications" more.

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Jun 3, 2011 6:36 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

"So if Infosys applies for 100 project Managers and gets approved, Dont they pay 100 times the fee?"

No.  The LCA doesn't cost anything or really offer any real benefits.  The LCA is the first step where you are essentially telling the DOL your company would like approval to hire x number of H-1b workers at y salary at z location.  The application to the USCIS is where the fees come in - so at that point they have a job and a worker to pair with it.  Very few LCA applications are denied even if they are clearly below prevailing wages.

Once approved, you can use that LCA to sponsor those workers.  The LCA is really just a rubber stamp process and does nothing but give the AILA and the body shops political cover - so they can claim that they tried to find workers locally and that a "strenuous process was followed".  It's one of the most insulting aspects of this whole thing, where they use this program to convince everyone they are not harming American workers.

You've probably already seen this video, but it is worth watching again.  It describes how immigration attorneys intentionally weed out American workers to disqualify them and hire the H-1b worker: www.youtube.com/user/programmersguild?blend=10&;ob=5

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Jun 3, 2011 6:51 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to R. Lawson

Only time will tell if Cisco becomes a victim of "The Indian effect" which is the company being "run into the ground" with minmal new project development and just selling the current products. 

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Jun 3, 2011 7:27 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to R. Lawson

So this data is worthless then it sounds like. Thanks for letting me know. I mainly did it for a learning project anyway. Do you think I should take it down immediately? 

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Jun 3, 2011 7:45 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

I think what you have proves how arbitrary this perception of skilled labor shortage is.

If the LCA is approved and not all slots are filled, what does it say about the entire process?

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Jun 3, 2011 7:51 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to Wakjob

The summary of all your points is:

"America has made every important product of software, and by extension, technology. Therefore, every American has to be more employable than every other non-American."

That second statement is a shabby logical leap even assuming the first is close to true.

My employer will be prominently mentioned when the history of technology is written. About 20% of my colleagues are American. Only about 30% of my colleagues are Indians or Chinese. The vast majority of the others are from all over the globe (other Asians from Israel and Russia, a lot of Europeans, and a healthy number from South America and Africa).

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Jun 3, 2011 7:52 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to hireamerican

To summarize. 

Not picking on Don but the field of journalism together.

We start off with Cisco having 1,000 H1Bs and a distinct possibility that it has approximately 30,000 H1Bs with Don using the words "purported". 

Only Don can give the definitive answer whether or not he called Cisco for clarification.  I did and Cisco did not give me an answer but then I don't claim to be a journalist.

So the issue becomes are some of these H1Bs trully indispensable or is it "all about cost"

Don probably won't address the obvious.  If 30,000 out of a workforce of 73,000 is temporary "guest workers" then that certainly would be more supportive of the contention that it is all about cheap labor versus "the best and the brightest"  instead of Cisco having 1,000 H1Bs.

Also not addressed but the issue raised is the number of H1Bs in an undetermined number of Cisco contingent workers.

Also not addressed is the salaries of the Cisco H1Bs versus the Cisco American employees.

Only time will tell "If Don steps up to the plate".  If history is any guide he won't even get out of the dugout.

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Jun 3, 2011 7:53 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

I did just notice though that my site includes the fax data whereas myvisajobs does not. In some years 70% of LCAs are faxed.  They are missing a decent amount. Maybe is still useful but not anything special:(

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Jun 3, 2011 7:59 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to hireamerican

If you pull your money from the stock market, you will have to invest it in fixed income (bank CDs, some bonds) which returns less than inflation.

Wall Street is a racket, no doubt. But you deserve to enjoy returns that are more in keeping with equity returns especially given that you won't be touching your money for 2-3 decades.

Goldman was subpoenaed yesterday. Hopefully, regulatory authorities make it uncomfortable for Wall Street to carry on its shenanigans which in turn will lead to flatter incomes and more bright kids going to STEM instead of finance. WHEN that happens, I will agree that the US will lower its dependence on international talent to staff technological innovation.

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Jun 3, 2011 8:20 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to An_H1B

>>According to the website myvisajobs.com, Cisco sponsored 5,220 H-1B visa workers during the period 2001 to 2010. Cisco declined to say how many H-1B workers it currently employs, but since the visa is good for three years, it seems logical that the number would be at least equal to the number of H-1B visa petitions it made in the last three years. The numbers for 2008, 2009 and 2010 are 543, 394 and 166, respectively, for a total of 1,103.

Each Visa petition may be for hundreds of employees. These numbers are not even in the right ball-park. Look at my site for the real numbers.

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Jun 3, 2011 8:22 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

Click my name to see site, enter cisco systems for employer. Is like 30,000 total last few years. And he says 1,000

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Jun 3, 2011 8:27 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to An_H1B

An,

You seriously need ro go read Wealth of Nations. Different countries have different specialties. This is a well-known economic fact. No major commercial software application comes from India nor are there even any companies in India capable of producing their own software products. There is no commercial Indian OS anyone has heard of. Meanwhile every major OS in use today was invented by Americans long ago, long before Indians ever came to the US. Every major US IT company was created and made sucessful by 99% Americans. The ones that have been taken over by foreigners have either died (PeopleSoft, Sun, Bell Labs), or are dying (Microsoft). The one exception is Apple which does 0% of its software work offshore and still hires mostly Americans. Apple is booming.

Facts simply do not fit with your argument. Americans were and always will be the best at software - just as Japanese and Germans are the best at autos, french are the best at wine, and backs make the best NBA players. Indians do have total mastery over one field however - fakery and deception.

Stop pretending to be someone you are not just to grab money.

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Jun 3, 2011 8:33 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

Actually, I don't think it is worthless data.  It doesn't tell the whole story, but it tells a key part of the story.  The data is 100% reliable, but when you spend a little time scrubbing it is reliable enough.

I think you should keep it.  BTW - great job considering you just picked up ASP.NET a few weeks ago.  I'm impressed how quickly you got that online.  For the time being I would maybe put a disclaimer that the data is still in rough shape, but once that is ironed out it is really good information.  What I especially like is the chart, and I would encourage you to add more charts that depict the data in other ways.

It's hard to send someone to a link where they need to mentally absorb hundreds of thousands of rows of data and make sense of it all.  A picture (your chart) is worth a thousand words.

So the data isn't perfect, but it's really all we've got at the moment.  The government doesn't do an adequate job collecting data for us, so any flaw in your application is really their fault.

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Jun 3, 2011 8:35 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

Sadly, you assume a lot of things....I have been out of the market for over 3 years but ahead in terms of returns compared to people I know that have been in the market the wholetime.

"But you deserve to enjoy returns that are more in keeping with equity returns especially given that you won't be touching your money for 2-3 decades."

This is how they keep you in the casino...once you pull your money out, their house of cards will come down, and show them the power of the common man.

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Jun 3, 2011 8:43 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to pokerplayer

Yes, Don needs to clarify the point about the numbers of visa applications. There is such a thing as a blanket application that can cover 10, 50, 100 or a 1000. I saw that a lot with companies like Tata.

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Jun 3, 2011 8:48 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to Dolores

Does anyone know the logistics behind these "blanket applications"? Infosys has a 50-pack or 100-pack of H1Bs going to every city in the country. Where do they show up for work? Are they all sent to different companies as contractors?

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Jun 3, 2011 8:54 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to R. Lawson

I was planning on using tabs above the graph for different analysis. Then using jquery when they click to slide the other graph over it. Just to demonstrate to an employer I can do it. But yeah I should not be too hard on myself. Like I said it does combine fax data, whereas myvisajobs charges for the info, and was too lazy too include it. We are talking like 10-20% of overall results. Plus, if you think about it, you really NEED to count an LCA more if it asks for 100 workers. It sounds like nobody really knows how many H1Bs are hired by a certain company. For instance, OP's claim of 1,000 jobs is stilly probably way off. If they ask for 100, they are not bringing in 1 employee.  Clearly an LCA asking for 100 workers should not be weighted equally with an LCA asking for 1 employee. At any rate, thank you very much for the education. I will keep in touch. I have many questions like...

I had implemented ajax, but then sacrificed it to be able to use query strings for linkable results. Can you do both at same time? Is the best solution to use AJAX but then output the link to the screen so they can copy it?

Stuff like that

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Jun 3, 2011 9:09 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to pokerplayer

They may be pulling a variation of the old Maine H-1B scam, where shell companies with faked offices filed oodles of H-1B requests for Maine, and a guy there wondered how on earth there could be so many high tech jobs to justify it. Then it turned out that they were filing in Maine because of a lower prevailing wage figure, but the actual worker would be working in an area with a much higher prevailing wage, which they wouldn't have to pay him.

www.pressherald.com/archive/government-confirmation-of-visa-fraud-should-bring-action_2008-10-16.html

And Cisco has been on the radar for excessive H-1B use in the past: www.networkworld.com/community/node/27421

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Jun 3, 2011 9:15 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

They are sent all over the country, like how Vision systems did, except Vision systems was a small fish. The big guys getaway with it all - IBM,Accenture, Deloitte, Infosys, TCS, WIPRO......

In the case of L1 visas, L1 visas are to bring people that have proprietary knowledge of company products. But, L1 visas are used to bring in cheap labor to implement third party applications or for production support at client sites . An example would be - L1 resource implementing or supporting SAP applications and IBM is the implementation partner. L1s get moved from one project to the next all over the country:P

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Jun 3, 2011 9:26 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says: in response to An_H1B

I guess that your fellow "self appointed third world geniuses" ran poor ole Microsoft into the ground.  For years, Microsoft has led the tech world in laying off US STEM workers while simultaneously leading US companies in importing H1B workers.

Microsoft is now in real good shape.  Microsoft has consistently underperformed the Nasdaq for the past ten years.  In fact, Bill Gates is leading the current investors in selling off Microsoft.

Actually, we all know that the third world immigrants are not here because they are super smart.  They are here because they are cheap.

A recent GAO report tells us just that, that over half of the H1B visas are granted to cheap entry level workers from the third world.  The same report tells us that only 7% of the workers granted H1B visas are compensated at rates customary of highly productive workers.

And the shape of Microsoft tells us that hiring cheap labor is not always the best decision.

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Jun 3, 2011 9:46 AM Best and Brightest USA! Best and Brightest USA!  says: in response to pokerplayer

Great job on the site, you my colleague are on of America's best and brightest!

Let's show the self appointed geniuses how to play ball.

And,  we haven't even touched the corp-corp human trafficking, placing benched/unemployed H1 visa workers into legitimate USA jobs - but you won't find them unless you know where to look.  This morning, in less than one hour, from one of the corp-corp sites I found 120 job ads - over 2 per minute how's that for displacing Americans?   This site averages 700 corp-corp ads every day which is over 250,000 per year.  Imagine how many Americans would return to work if they shut down this human trafficking mafia.

See www.brightfuturejobs.com for details

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Jun 3, 2011 9:54 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to pokerplayer

I would look more at jquery as opposed to AJAX - a very powerful javascript extension and a skill there is alot of demand for.  Integrates very well with ASP.NET.  Also checkout the ASP.NET MVC framework. 

There are some reasons you don't want to expose parameters in query strings (security, among others) and there are still ways to achieve deep linking and preserve navigation in the browser.  There are also legitimate reasons to expose parameters in query strings also.  In your case security may be an issue - I can see someone not being very happy about what the data says and taking vengeance on your application.  Either way should be fine, but since part of your objective is to learn new things I would suggest jquery and ASP.NET MVC.

A great resource is DNRTV - www.dnrtv.com/archives.aspx. ; Thats all free and I'm sure you will find something helpful there.  Also, one of my favorite resources that I've actually used about a decade now (man can't believe its been that long) is learnvisualstudio.net.  Very affordable and very comprehensive collection of online videos.

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Jun 3, 2011 9:57 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to twins.fan

Cisco tactics.....

www.vancouversun.com/news/usedunmitigatedgallcourtjail+exec/4885987/story.html

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Jun 3, 2011 9:59 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Since Cisco wouldn't say how many H-1Bs it currently employs, I simply went with the calculation you see in the post, which was supplied to me by Dr. Gene Nelson in my e-mail exchange with him. He was just saying we can assume it has to be at least that number (1,103). I have no special way of getting the accurate number, so anyone who has more accurate information is encouraged to supply it, as a couple people in this string have purported to do .

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Jun 3, 2011 10:04 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

"Some of them have been spewing the same old rhetoric for so long, it's interesting to see if they are capable of alternate arguments."

I think that's called staying on message.  If we changed our argument every 10 minutes, that wouldn't be very sincere would it?

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Jun 3, 2011 10:09 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to hireamerican

This story blew me away -- thanks for sharing it.

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Jun 3, 2011 10:19 AM POKERPLAYER POKERPLAYER  says: in response to Don Tennant

"I have no special way of getting the accurate number"

This is why I am making the site. For people like you to use the real numbers and DOL supplied data.

h1bistro.com/Default.aspx

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Jun 3, 2011 10:21 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to POKERPLAYER

You can link to specific searches as such,

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=0&;min=1&max=14&state=35&workers=4&searchcompany=infosys

The link is built for you.

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Jun 3, 2011 10:29 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Ok, I see you did all the diligence you could under the circumstances. Just be aware that they have ways of obscuring the damage they do. The blanket visa is a largely unknown and unresearched aspect of H-1B abuse.

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Jun 3, 2011 10:39 AM Vincenzo Vincenzo  says: in response to pokerplayer

I was working on something like you implemented.  As part of my project, I was planning on using an API provided by The Sunlight Foundation called Sunlight Congress API.  This API provides developers with an interface that returns information on Members of Congress.  See services.sunlightlabs.com/docs/Sunlight_Congress_API/ for a better description.  At the least, you may want to consider using this to allow users to do a search for their Congresspeople by zip code and to email them with the results of their LCA query.  Please let me know if you would like me to help out with this.  Problem is, I'm primarily a Java developer.  I did some C# a few years ago but it was a small project.

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Jun 3, 2011 10:42 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to Don Tennant

As you see here, Cisco Systems brought in 15,000 H1B workers in 2007 alone.

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=3&;min=1&max=14&state=0&workers=0&searchcompany=cisco%20systems

With a little toying around I am sure you can figure out how to get the figures you need. Let me know if you have any questions.

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Jun 3, 2011 10:57 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

This explains why any and all tech projects are over run by Indians, from the highly technical resources to Admininstrative assistants.

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Jun 3, 2011 11:05 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

It explains how I can pick up ASP.NET/VB and make this project in 3 weeks, yet i have been looking for a job for almost 20 years.

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Jun 3, 2011 11:18 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says: in response to Don Tennant

So if this story is right, Cisco is claiming that they brought in a Nigerian worker to work for Cisco.  This worker ultimately left Cisco to become an entrepreneur, and then decided to sue Cisco for forcing Cisco's clients to buy support contracts from Cisco.

Is this an example of the genius foreign entrepreneurs that come to America? Now Cisco is forcing this genius to leave the country.

I guess that Cisco did not save any money by hiring this foreign worker.

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Jun 3, 2011 11:28 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

Well...maybe that's your problem....you do things really fast. If you get things done quickly, then how can you support the inflated estimates that funnel money out of the company :P.

Like I always say, this whole outsourcing thing is nothing but a way to launder money. It is THE business model in India - show fake expenses and not pay taxes. With a billion plus people and no system like the SSN we have here in the US, one can claim I paid someone who lived in that slum out there. It happens at all levels.

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Jun 3, 2011 11:33 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to twins.fan

Cisco actually lost money with this particular former employee.

Imagine the expense of four lawyers, travel to Canada, income lost by stopping the practice of forcing customers to buy suppport services and ultimately settling the case with the Nigerian. That must have run into the millions of dollars. You reap what you sow :P

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Jun 3, 2011 11:38 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Vincenzo

Another thing to integrate with would be prevailing wage data - based on job title and location how does it compare to prevailing wage.  Identify all the sponsors that don't appear to be paying prevailing wages, and still had their LCAs approved.

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Jun 3, 2011 11:58 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says: in response to hireamerican

Thanks man,  this is a great story!!!

But that is my thinking, maybe Cisco's recruiters did not do such a good job here. After all, who woulda thunk it.  An "entrepreneur" from Nigeria is something that you would expect to pan out,  right?  Maybe just not this time I guess.

Maybe they will have better luck when they ship their operations to India.  India has a strong reputation of ethical business arrangements, right up there with Nigeria.

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Jun 3, 2011 12:09 PM H1 Contractors? H1 Contractors?  says: in response to pokerplayer

Very cool site!

Can you search the site by work site zipcode  to see how many H-1b contractors are deployed near H-1b hotbeds -  near MS, Cisco? 

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Jun 3, 2011 12:18 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to twins.fan

Yeah....after all those Nigerian emails.....don't know anyone who had not received one....LOL....

I was completely surprised when American corporations started moving to India when Indians themselves do not trust their own countrymen :P

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Jun 3, 2011 12:27 PM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to Don Tennant

It's kinda fun to rattle their cages sometimes. Some of them have been spewing the same old rhetoric for so long, it's interesting to see if they are capable of alternate arguments.

In any case, in 10 years here, I have not met any one of these haters in the US. Neither have my other H-1B friends. On the whole, this is one gracious country and on average, no-one begrudges you hard-earned success.

I don't think there is an easy way for this particular crowd to see it, but most industries including IT have an S shaped lifecycle (imagine the integral sign from calculus to be the S that is laid flat on the X axis). In its infancy, the going is slow with innovators and entrpreneurs pushing the show forward. As it gathers steam, the industry ramps up offering great employment opportunities and the curve ramps up. Here is where analytical minds join the fray. Like all other industries, the fun eventually ends and we hit the top part of the S where jobs are no longer created.

Reality if not quite as bleak. In technology, if you're savvy, you can actually hop S curves as long as you develop vision, a business savvy and entrepreneurial self-governance. The sad truth is that there are many analytical minds that are cannot pick up these somewhat orthogonal traits. It is these people that don't realize when the top of the S-curve has been reached. So while some of the savvier people have jumped into cloud computing or building apps for smart devices, these guys are too busy building superior desktop apps for Windows. They are great programmers, but don't realize that continuous improvement is not about making your code look far more elegant than it did last year, but to stick your nose away from the grindstone to smell the path of the green.

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Jun 3, 2011 12:43 PM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to H1 Contractors?

Give me time to eat lunch and I will hook that up for you. Should be a cinch.

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Jun 3, 2011 12:47 PM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to An_H1B

Yeah, I have quite a few typos here. Just excited that the Mavs won

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Jun 4, 2011 1:06 AM Approver Approver  says:

It has become a total joke for Indians...to cheat USA. These scum from India lie and are stealing all the IT Jobs of Americans. Read Goolti.com and you will know

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Jun 4, 2011 1:17 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to twins.fan

I heard about someone that owned like 4 to 5 Dunkin Donut outlets that sponsored H1b visas for a bunch of his friends for accounting and network admininstrator jobs. All five cash registers needed to be networked and accounting standards needed to be followed, you know :P

All these guys did was run the cash register and drive the truck running donuts back and forth. They ultimately got their greencards, got trained in software QA and moved onto real IT jobs. This was back when people did not do fake payrolls and stuff, so he paid them wages well above cashier wages. Needless to say, the business went bankrupt. Guess where the owner ended up? Yes, he too moved on to an IT job. Pretty sure Dunkin donut experience was replaced with some nifty IT experience on all of their resumes :P

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Jun 4, 2011 1:20 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Approver

Just read my posts right here and you will get a good sampling. No need to rush to Goolti.com, wade through all that mess and run up traffic over there :P

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Jun 4, 2011 3:35 AM James Murphy James Murphy  says:

Take a look as some of the jobs H-1Bs have been brought into the country to do.  Go to h1bistro.com/Default.aspx and set salaries to "no minimum" and "no maximum."

Now find the best and brightest H-1B muffler mechanic hired by Sil's Muffler Shop of Wilmington, CA by entering Year 2003 and Employer Contains "muffler" 

Our Subway sandwich shop franchisees could not possibly succeed without the best and the brightest from around the world.  See them by entering Employer Contains "subway" and vary the Year

Poor beleaguered employers should not have to rely on Americans for secretaries so enter Job Title Contains "secretary"

A few others I found:

$29,640 a year accountant (remember an H-1B is supposed to have a 4 year college degree) for a Sea Isle City, NJ 7-Eleven Franchisee in 2002.

"Day Care" in the Job Title Contains finds a lot of hits especially in New York.

The Boulder Mesa Restaurant of Boulder, UT hired a "host, waiter, cashier" for $10,400 a year in 2006.  Was that below minimum wage in 2006? Was that due to a shortage of trained domestic workers?  4 year degree to do this job? 

In 2003 Alcazar Check Cashing, Inc. of Charlotte, NC hired three "Tri-Lingual Cashiers" for $20,800 a year.

In 2002 BYTE TECHNOLOGIES of Springfield, VA paid $12,168 a year for a cashier.  Wonder why the need a cashier with a college degree?

Florida seems to need foreign "youth counselors."

In 2009 the Sacramento Bee hired reporter at $43,680

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Jun 4, 2011 6:43 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to twins.fan

Wow, thanks twins.fan! Great response too.

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Jun 4, 2011 6:55 AM James Murphy James Murphy  says: in response to hireamerican

h1bistro.com/Home.aspx

Shows H-1Bs for Dunkin Donuts for each year from 2002 to 2009.

If a donuts shop brings a relative in on an H-1B claiming he is an accountant and then uses him as a cashier they will almost always get away with it. Nobody is going to check.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:20 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to James Murphy

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=3&;min=0&max=12&state=0&workers=0&searchcompany=dunkin donuts

I provide a link for each search now. It is given right above the results. You can not however use the "back" button for your last search. I have to pick between nicer looking pageloads and site navigation until I become more knowledgable.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:26 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

I realize the total number I give does not represent H1B's brought into the country that year as LCA's being certified is only the first step, and also 500,000 per year is not right. But i think they have to do an LCA for each existing H1B every year. So in fact, my totals may actually reflect the total number of H1Bs (even though many are not freshly minted). Any thoughts on this?

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Jun 4, 2011 8:34 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

These records contain the word Dunkin in the buisness name. Lord know how many more are there that are holding companies that do not have the word Dunkin in the name.

This whole thing has become a joke. The only way to curb this is to have rules like much higher annual sales etc and get local law enforcement involved in terms of checking up on them and stuff.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:35 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=2&;min=1&max=14&state=0&workers=0

Of course the totals given will still be too high due to erroneous data provided by DOL. Click above then click #JOBS twice to sort high values first. Obviously these are not asking for 500 H1Bs 990 H1bs etc.

Given that H1Bs are granted for 3  and 6 years, this would be right in line with my totals.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:38 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

The above poster was indeed right on this one. How does a dunkin donuts franchise owner need to bring an accountant H1B over here.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:43 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

A search for Subway came up with accounts clerk for 20,280/year. A temp agency in he US can find Accounting clerks with no issues.

This is highway robbery. All this can only mean one thing. There is no question corruption is involved at all levels.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:50 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

Latest thing I heard is that some people are claiming their home basements as HinduTemples and sponsoring H1 visas for Hindu priests. Although the priests do not make much money, it is better than what they make in India and also they will eventually get greencards which will be beneficial to their children in the long run.

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Jun 4, 2011 8:58 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

Yes you are right. Searching for Subway gives many results. DBA means "doing buisness as" and means a franchise owner. I saw a bunch where they are obviously bringing in sandwich makers. "director of operations" for a single subway restaraunt?

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Jun 4, 2011 9:04 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=3&;min=0&max=12&state=0&workers=0&jobtitle=programmer&searchcompany=subway

A computer programmer for subway in stockton, CA. Yet there headquarters is in Ohio...

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Jun 4, 2011 9:08 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

Not only tech jobs but all kinds of jobs have been taken over. Most franchise restaurants like Subway and Dunkin Donuts are run by Indians.

So they are probably sponsoring relatives to work the cash registers or getting kickbacks in India to sponsor the visas. What a shame :P

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Jun 4, 2011 9:12 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

Yes in the case of Subway, they are abusing visas to bring family/friends over. Saving money is not an issue in this case.Still costing jobs though...

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Jun 4, 2011 9:17 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

I wonder what kind of business this company is in....

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=3&;min=0&max=12&state=0&workers=0&jobtitle=programmer&searchcompany=subway

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Jun 4, 2011 9:18 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

NO WONDER WE HAVE CLOSE TO 10% UNEMPLOYMENT!!!!

Sorry for the caps...just had to vent!!

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Jun 4, 2011 9:20 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

It looks like you copied the link from the browser. Copy it from above the results.

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Jun 4, 2011 9:29 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says:

hireamerican,

You have some great info.  How about joining us at community.dice.com/ ? Please, come the "Tech Market Conditions" section.  We have a vigorous discussion about the abuses of the corrupt H1B visas, the Silicon Valley Outsourcers, and the sockpuppet politicians that do their bidding.

How about coming over and joining the conversation and posting?  Your contributions will be very welcome!!

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Jun 4, 2011 9:33 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

Unless you were refering the the JAI GAYTRI INC. in which case I cant really tell, it looks like it may be an owner of a  few subway sandwich shops, using a non-food sounding name so he can ask for programmers.

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Jun 4, 2011 9:39 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says: in response to pokerplayer

Pokerplayer, this data is very valuable.  You have done a tremendous job.  You just need to know what the data really is.

Those salaries are the salaries that the Silicion Valley Outsourcers and Indian H1B body shops intend to pay.  This is where you get that data.

Again, this data is important.  Thanks for doing such a GREAT JOB!!

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Jun 4, 2011 9:46 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

No, not JAI GAYTRI....search in Florida with company name

MIAMI BEACH SUBWAY 41ST, LLC

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Jun 4, 2011 9:47 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

For they year 2010

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Jun 4, 2011 9:50 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

Your tool is a goldmine!!!

Is there a way to search for jobs that paid less than 20k for multiple years?

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Jun 4, 2011 10:01 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

I had "all years" at first but took it out because if you search "all years" "all states" it takes like a minute and a half. I decided to take the option away, but lets face it, that option needs to be there. I will put it back soon.

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Jun 4, 2011 10:31 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

i added the "ALL" for years. It is quick for <$20,000 but in some searches it may take a while.

In the future a list of check boxes would be better than radio, so you can select 2010,2009 and 2008 if you want

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Jun 4, 2011 10:41 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to twins.fan

Representative Rothman of New Jersey has turned traitor and needs to be exposed for his opposition to American workers.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/careers/job-trends/H-1B-visa-fee-hike-impacting-US-firms-too/articleshow/8722148.cms

Get the word out!

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Jun 4, 2011 12:40 PM James Murphy James Murphy  says:

I join in applauding pokerplayer for putting the LCA data online in a searchable form.  You can download some of the LCA data from the government at

www.flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx

Once this site made the data searchable but removed it.  Too bad because they had all the LCA data fields there.  Pokerplayer has done a lot of work because the government makes it hard.  Each year is in at least one separate file and different formats.  Data before 2001 is not made available the there are numerous data errors.   It is easy for a company to hide data.  For example they can do a variation on their name.  General Electric is particularly hard to track in this regard. It is very common to list the corporate owner rather than the name by which people know it. 

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Jun 5, 2011 1:32 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

They were denied but look at the gall of the company to even apply to begin with :P

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Jun 5, 2011 1:44 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

can you see the link now? i have a feeling i had a glitch and some screen resolutions could not see it. I made more room for it, should be below the "get records" button

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Jun 5, 2011 3:32 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to hireamerican

400+ million scam...

www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/06/01/2011-06-01_the_payroll_scandal_that_keeps_on_giving__sleazy_new_revelations_we_oughta_just_.html?r=news

This is a well established business model with Indian IT firms....US managers funnel money to Indian owned companies in the US who will then launder the money back to US managers via fake companies in India. Audit any and all Indian owned company books and it will all come out

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Jun 5, 2011 5:18 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

Yes, I can see it but it is not a hyperlink.

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Jun 5, 2011 5:47 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

The prosecuter is the Indian national who outlawed poker in the USA. Preet Bahraha, a real scumbag. Will he let the Indians involved of the hook? Still dont see how an Indian can  ban one of the USA's favorite pasttimes..

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Jun 5, 2011 5:50 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

>>Preet Bahraha, a real scumbag. Will he let the Indians involved of the hook?

Nevermind looks like he already let them flee back to India.

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Jun 5, 2011 7:01 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to pokerplayer

Looks like he did. It appears he still has not charged them, giving them enough time to sort things out for themselves and flee while their employees are left holding the bag.

Good luck getting them charged/extradited to face charges. They will payoff the politicians in India. They will live the life of royalty in plain sight. They won't even have to get their own drink of water. India has so many poor people they can afford to pay for several servants that will wait on them hand and foot.

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Jun 5, 2011 7:44 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to R. Lawson

Alright, I have been distracted by the many others here; I confess to not taking on the one guy making sense here.

The H-1B is absolutely flawed. I am actually on your side on the issue. All the tales of Dunkin Donut employees on H-1Bs...absolutely true.

In case it isn't clear, I have 2 major points to make:

- The H-1B sucks, but it is not statistically significant. Without the H-1B, IT in the US would undoubtedly have gone down the same path it has gone down. You can argue that the impact would have been diminished without the H-1B, but that's missing the forest for the trees. It's important to chase the direction of a trend before you argue its magnitude.

- The bulk of the arguments against the H-1B are really fronts to racists pushing their agenda.

That said, the H-1B has brought has a certain kind of worker that is a pretty good investment for the US. 60% of all H-1Bs are holders of graduate degrees. And while Tri-Valley university may be an H-1B shop, it is not producing a significant number of these graduate degrees.

So, my point is that even assuming 70% of the H-1Bs are extraneous, the remaining 30% are a happy marriage of people who prize the quality of professionalism and academic advancement in the US and bring a lot of much needed technical and entrepreneurial abilities to the table.

Of this 30%, even if one in ten comes up with key innovation, or a commercially viable idea, the number of jobs that could result from it is many.

While getting the H-1B right is definitely good to weed out the 70% that should not be making it (and that's the direction things have taken given the H-1B usage rates over the most recent 2-3 cycles), it's just as important to recognize the importance of continuing to bring in the 30% that go on to be professors, technocrats and businessmen. The H-1B does not have to be the vehicle to do that. I say, ban the H-1B and have a new system that has a higher bar and is impossible to game.

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Jun 5, 2011 8:04 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

You have certainly shown how much you know...we did have a program that was working fine....much like the 30% scenario you just described......it was the recent H1bs that muddied things up....so it's got to go!!

And one more thing...it is easy to call it racist agenda when you have no valid points...

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Jun 5, 2011 9:11 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to R. Lawson

You can stay on your message, but it does not protect you from the need to make counterpoints when a different argument is made.

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Jun 5, 2011 9:15 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to An_H1B

There are indeed a few - a very few - H-1Bs who are worth bringing here. But there seems to be no way to get the rest to go home once they set foot here. You can watch them coach each other on how to get around our laws over on Immigration Voice.

I am almost 60 and third generation American IT. I kid you not. IT goes back that far in America because it was mostly invented here. Look up the history of IBM. So I have had a front row seat to the rise and progress of IT in America. And so I know for a fact, IT was great when it was ours.

The H-1B needs to go. Most H-1Bs here need to go.

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Jun 5, 2011 9:20 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says:

It's beyond amusing when people make arguments saying H-1Bs should go back to India to build 600 million toilets. Hey, you guys are finding it hard to keep a damn job. You're here taking it out on some unrelated guy!

First feed your family and then you can get on the soap-box about someone else building toilets. I can feed about 10 people on what I make. And I follow through. I have a juicy discretionary budget. I spend my weekends at a homeless shelter. And I tithe to my local church.

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Jun 5, 2011 9:52 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to An_H1B

The toilet situation in India is but one example of a hideous public health and sanitation deficit. Indians have little to brag about until this deficit, and many others are remediated. Rabies is a significant cause of death in India - for humans. So is starvation. Illiteracy is still very high. Indians love to crow about being cheaper to hire than Americans, but they remain deliberately, blisteringly ignorant of the purpose of that American salary - they think it's all spending money for a greedy American. They cannot seem to comprehend where all the 'niceness' of life in America comes from - and how much of it is funded by taxes on that big fat American salary. They remain uncaring about all the big fat American bills are paid from that salary - as such they have the mentality of barbarian looters where American is concerned. To them, America is just one big fat pot of gold, and they want some. I have long since grown weary of the childish ignorance of Indians where America and how America works is concerned. Yes, go the hell home. You wore out your welcome long ago.

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Jun 5, 2011 10:28 AM American Citizen American Citizen  says: in response to Dolores

Hi Dolores, i can understand your situation. The fact is over 80% of the guys on Work Visas are frauds and deserve to be kicked out of our country. No More H1Bs or any Work Visas...for 5 years...Period.

Way beyond time to take our country back. Since our Politicians Dont care about our citizens, the best way to get attention on this H1B Nonsense, is groups of American Citizens stand outside the buildings wherever these H1B Scamsters work and tell these Pigs to get the hell out of our country! The fact is there are 14 Million Americans looking for Jobs and another 100,000 are coming to the Market seeking work each month. It is way beyond Tolerance for us, as citizens of our country, to see fraud H1B Pigs stealing our Jobs and ruining our Middle Class and our country.

For the years 2009, 2010, the last 2 years, only 3 out of every 10 kids has even found a job! The rest are staying with Mom and Dad seeking better times. Mark my words...any party that supports Work Visas for Fraud H1B Pigs, will loose badly comin' Nov 2012. It is time to kick these H1B frauds out of America and the jobs rightfully go to our citizens.

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Jun 5, 2011 10:34 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

>> The H-1B needs to go. Most H-1Bs here need to go.

While I agree with you, Don probably doesn't.

1.  Don stated that Americans should be willing to reduce their standard of living to help the third world.  Sorry to give you the bad news Don but while a lot of Americans in your words might agree with you most don't.

2.  Don won't answer the question : "Is $14 an hour job a true success story ?" after his post "Over 50 stop whining and get back to work"

It appears that Don believes that we should be happy that Americans are working for close to minimum wage.

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Jun 5, 2011 10:51 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to American Citizen

Problem is, both political parties support this program despite the fraus- Republicans for cheap labor, and Democrats for votes. Come election time, it is not going to make a difference, since they are all the same.

However, the idea to protest in front of places where the H1bs work does sound like a good idea. It will most definitely grab the attention of the powers that be.

We also should entertain voting for independant candidates that run on immigration reform favoring the American voters.

So, how do we go about doing this?

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Jun 5, 2011 11:08 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to hireamerican

It's a shame to see that both Canada and the UK are ahead of the US in this regard. They have a neat system to allocate points to decide the worth of a foreign worker in their countries. So things such as earning advance degrees from top schools, or making 6 digits, or putting out a couple of patents, or creating a job after having stood up to dismissive VCs to create a firm are all traits that earn points. When you have enough points to beat a certain threshold, you earn the right to become a permanent resident.

This basically takes the power away from the employer and reduces indentured servitude. Simultaneously, it expects the foreign worker to shape up or ship out. A competitive system that benefits the best immigrant and the country.

It's a shame that the US is not heading something like this. It's the country that got Einstein and Chandrasekhar to become Americans. The latter earned his Nobel after immigrating.

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Jun 5, 2011 11:17 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

That's what we have been talking about all along on this thread, DUH!!!

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Jun 5, 2011 11:47 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

If you would like to debate me publicly on the issue and someone is willing to moderate - I'd be more than willing to debate you on any point.  Or anyone else for that matter. 

Doubtful that anyone from the AILA or any of the industry groups would be willing to debate myself or others (like Berry, Matloff, Hira, Miano, and half a dozen others) because their arguments have so many holes in them.  Their arguments are really intended to be propaganda and a marketing campaign and weren't designed to withstand scrutiny - because they correctly calculated there wouldn't be much scrutiny.

I don't think you've raised any points that we haven't had a strong argument against.  This thread is growing long so remind me what point have you made that you don't believe we have a strong argument against?

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Jun 5, 2011 12:52 PM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=0&;min=1&max=2&state=0&workers=0&searchcompany=ASSURANCE EMPLOYMENT SERVICES IN

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Jun 5, 2011 12:56 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

A degree in the US costs over 100K at a minimum, while an Indian degree costs about 4K.

So while you have money to feed 10 people, the American is busy paying off the 100K in loans that he/she borrowed to get that degree.

So, the question is - Is it really important to pay for a degree in an US accredited university any longer?

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Jun 6, 2011 4:00 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to hireamerican

>> However, the idea to protest in front of places where the H1bs work does sound like a good idea. It will most definitely grab the attention of the powers that be. <<

How about get some unemployed American IT workers picketing in front of Lofgren's office ??

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Jun 6, 2011 7:53 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to hireamerican

46% of all H-1Bs go to Indians. At that run-rate, almost a half of all H-1B fraud will be associated with Indians. If you are biased however, you will focus on the ethnicity of the fraud-perpetrator.

Your latest post actually exposes how your creed thinks. You guys are more happy jumping to conclusions and then digging up supporting evidence.

Yeah, it is most depressing for me to know that you don't care what I think. I guess I will sink my sorrows in my enviable job, while you guys can rejoice in the unemployment line as you suck the tax-payer dry like leeches.

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Jun 6, 2011 8:20 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

I would say close to 100% of the fraud is with H1bs from India. I have all the evidence that I need to come to this conclusion.

No where in the world can you get training like you can in Hyderabad, India on illegal copies of software. Java training for six months costs a mere 100 dollars. So it all begins in India.

Obviously your success has gone to your head....you think all of us here are unemployed. You also think we are all racist. Enough said :P

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Jun 6, 2011 9:28 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to hireamerican

Why do they all assume that anyone who criticises them is a) unemployed, and/or b) without a degree? I have a recent master's in the IT field, from a real, respected school. A few years back I actually had one of these raving immigrant-wannabes tell me to "go to college, any college" and learn about the world and how things are interconnected. My bachelor's is from a Great Books college. And always accusing us of hating them for the color of their skin. How about hating them because they're obnoxious and show contempt for us every chance they get? I think that's a more plausible reason for our reaction.

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Jun 6, 2011 11:03 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to Dolores

Whatever job it is you have, it apparently is not worth your best effort since you spend all of your time bashing the H-1B. I would be pretty miserable if I were 60, worked on a pointless job and spend my entire day consumed by hatred.

Say what you want about the H-1Bs, but there aren't too many of them who sign up for Google notification on news items about the H-1B and then waste their time regurgitating the same old crap from 2005 in response. They work hard and are likely more contributory to the US than you'll ever be. At 30, some of them have likely accomplished more in their careers than you have at 60.

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Jun 6, 2011 11:04 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

OK An-H1b, I'll tackle each of your points. I think we agree on some things, and may not be in total agreement on others. And I'm sure we may have a few points of disagreement.

An-H1b:"The H-1B is absolutely flawed.I am actually on your side on the issue.All the tales of Dunkin Donut employees on H-1Bs...absolutely true."

Excellent - we have a starting point which is "The H-1b is flawed". I believe it is flawed beyond repair, and as such it needs to be abolished in favor of something smarter. I believe that corporations should not be immigration middle-men. Immigration is about something much more pure and sacrosanct than corporate profits.

I believe it needs to be abolished in favor of permanent immigration, self sponsorship as opposed to corporate sponsorship, the favoring of relatives (families) over new immigrants, and sustainable numbers. I would limit new immigration to 25% of net job gains each year. In years where we have job loss, I would restrict immigration. Finally, certainly more people would apply than we have openings for. I would make the acceptance based on merit, not first come or a lottery.

An-H1b"In case it isn't clear, I have 2 major points to make:

- The H-1B sucks, but it is not statistically significant.Without the H-1B, IT in the US would undoubtedly have gone down the same path it has gone down.You can argue that the impact would have been diminished without the H-1B, but that's missing the forest for the trees.It's important to chase the direction of a trend before you argue its magnitude."

I strongly disagree on this point. Because the H-1b visa has been highly concentrated in IT occupations (disproportionate than all other occupations), the average wage is below market wages, and that companies engaged in offshore outsourcing acquire the lion's share of visas it has had a major impact on our occupation. The numbers are statistically significant in the IT occupation.

If you claimed it was insignificant across ALL occupations I would probably agree with that. But because it is a corporate sponsored visa and body shops who want to offshore jobs are first in line it is very harmful to the IT profession and a few others who also have disproportionate numbers. IT is by far the hardest hit.

An-H1b"- The bulk of the arguments against the H-1B are really fronts to racists pushing their agenda."

I'm making my case, and nobody else's. My case is about economics and national interest, and has nothing to do with race. In fact, I want greater protections for immigrants. I believe the reason they are so easily exploited is because of corporate sponsorship. Green cards (in sustainable numbers) would make them equal players in the labor market. An H-1b visa amounts to second class labor and corporate sponsorship gives companies leverage against your wages and salary. This hurts you directly and it hurts us indirectly - because we now must compete against workers who are easily exploited. To remain competitive our own wages and benefits face downward pressure.

An-H1b"That said, the H-1B has brought has a certain kind of worker that is a pretty good investment for the US.60% of all H-1Bs are holders of graduate degrees.And while Tri-Valley university may be an H-1B shop, it is not producing a significant number of these graduate degrees."  Reply

Jun 6, 2011 11:04 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to An_H1B

I'm not sure where you got that statistic, but it is not correct. This study is from 1999, but I have not seen changes reported since:

colosseumbuilders.com/Guild/h1b/library/reports/ins/report1.pdf

"Approximately 57% of the H-1B workers were reported to have earned the equivalent of a Bachelor's Degree;nearly 41% earned a Master's Degree or higher;10% earned a Professional Degree (MD, DDS, LLB, JD) or Doctorate Degree (PhD, EdD)."

An-H1b:"even if one in ten comes up with key innovation, or a commercially viable idea, the number of jobs that could result from it is many."

Yes, but on in ten won't come up with a key innovation because so many are here as entry level labor - not innovators. The vast majority are entry level and fresh out of college. You may be able to make this argument with the O visa, but certainly not the H-1b visa.

I would agree that there are some very talented H-1b holders however this visa puts them through an immigration limbo and many will ultimately return home. We are giving on the job training to our future global competition. These people with extraordinary skill are in the minority amongst H-1b holders and if they have some idea that could create jobs they don't own that idea. They legally can't be entrepreneurs and must be sponsored by another company.

An-H1b:"I say, ban the H-1B and have a new system that has a higher bar and is impossible to game."

So finally, we are in absolute agreement. We need to ban the H-1B and create a system with a higher bar and impossible to game. I believe that should not be a corporate sponsored visa because there hasn't been a corporate sponsored visa not violated in every way imaginable.

To solve this problem, you need to understand how laws are written and how they are ultimately applied. Fixing the H-1b is like asking Congress in the 1800s to "fix slavery". The concept of slavery is fundamentally wrong, so there was no way possible to "fix it" other than abolish it. The same applies towards the H-1b visa.

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Jun 6, 2011 12:10 PM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to hireamerican

You can slice it any way you want, but India-bashing is so embarrassingly obvious in the posts that most of these guys cannot be taken seriously.

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Jun 6, 2011 12:34 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

You don't have to....no one cares if you don't :P

But the fact remains - there is widespread fraud with Indians in the H1B program in terms of resume faking, running fake payrolls,giving false referrals, false recruitments, running segregated recruiting ads, hiding behind incorrect visas to avoid fees, the kickbacks, the schemes, the fraud, the human trafficking element of it all......it's all there...you can't deny it!!

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Jun 6, 2011 12:51 PM Hireamerican Hireamerican  says: in response to Dolores

Dolores,I want these people to see me in person. They will hightail out of this country in two seconds from embarassment cuz seeing me in person would invalidate every point they make in support of H1b visas.

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Jun 7, 2011 4:12 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to An_H1B

The funny thing is the poor chinese must hear this and take offense, when we all know they ACTUALLY ARE the best and brightest. Any chinese programmer is more than welcome here as far as I am concerned.

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Jun 7, 2011 4:46 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

Ofcourse they are busy.....busy padding their resumes with fake experience :P. It will be the legacy they will be leaving....which will haunt their children, and their grandchildren

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Jun 7, 2011 5:33 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to An_H1B

I used to think well of India and Indians, but at this point I have been insulted by so many of them over the Internet and elsewhere, people like you who don't know me, have no idea what I'm like, but assume the worst, that my atttitude has changed. I have never needed to sign up for Google notifications about your activities: they are all over my country befouling it. You guys fouled your own nest back home, and now you want to go to better, cleaner, safer countries and take over. You have more adversaries here than you think and win more dislike for yourselves every day. I'm tired of hearing that you people think you're better than us and have more of a right to be here than we do. But I see it frequently, most recently over on IV and I have archived the page it is on. That's disgusting. These 'guest' workers sure have rotten manners for a guest. Fortunately, our current jobs crisis for citizens is doing more to wake up America to the sheer toxic wrongness of your presence here than anything I could do or say.

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Jun 7, 2011 5:40 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

Fresh H1Bs for 2011 are in if you want to see them click my name! Many more entry-level programmers and business analysts taking the exact jobs I am looking for.  

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Jun 7, 2011 7:17 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to hoapres

That is a good idea.

How about sending her office emails and faxes and phone calls.

DC Office:

102 Cannon House Office Building

Washington, DC 20515

Phone: 202-225-3072

Fax: 202-225-3336

Email: zoe.lofgren@mail.house.gov

Web Email

Website

District Office- San Jose:

635 North First Street, Suite B

San Jose, CA 95112

Phone: 408-271-8700

Fax: 408-271-8713

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Jun 8, 2011 12:15 PM Mark Mark  says: in response to An_H1B

The vast majority of H1b's are Indian at about 65% (Chinese are a very distant second at around 8%). Source: www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~matloff/georgetown.pdf#€;‹page=53

In 2009, of employer filings for green cards for their H1b employees, 59% filed for Indian nationals while 7.5% filed for Chinese nationals.

I personally have never had any issues with anyone of Asian descent.  I have never faced discrimination at their hands as I have from Indian males in this country.

It's gotten so bad here that it's become a monopoly over jobs.

Once they reach the hiring manager level, upper caste Indian males (the only ones who seem to come over here) hire only other upper caste Indian males.  It's really blatant, discriminatory and it is racist (giving those of one's own ethnicity preference over others is racism).

The almost funny thing is that they call us the racists for merely noticing this.  And they call us this without even knowing our ethnicities.

....

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Jun 9, 2011 2:12 AM dontknowwheretostart dontknowwheretostart  says: in response to Dolores

Dolores,

First off: I'm Indian and I'm on H1-B. In your eyes "I'm a low-IQ scam artist who stole an American job to escape my hellhole country and now Intend to take ove America." I don't want to argue any of that - but bear with me for a moment.

You talk about hating my country and all Indians - based on a comments on an Internet site, on a topic that is often clearly targeted against Indians. This is the Internet - what do you expect? People to be polite and nice? Have you seen the comments on CNN articles on YouTube videos - a vast majority of them from Americans too? I empathize with your cause - i.e. to minimize H1B fraud and to ensure citizens have a right not be scammed in their own country. But when I read your comments I cannot make out whether you are a reasonable, intelligent, IT engineer who wants to fix a broken system - or whether you're a raging bigot who hates a whole country and its people based on a visa program. When you take a stand you believe in, you also have to ignore a vast amount of 'noise', i.e. people saying crap and abusing you - and as you mentioned you were an IT professional for many, many years, you should know that in the US too it's very common for people to receive huge amount of abuse and threats when they post things people don't like, on the Internet. It's pervasive regardless of nationality.

Do I agree that H1B is being abused by several employers - yes I do. I also agree it needs to be fixed to ensure the right people can come in. Perhaps your view is no one should come in and US should simply shut its doors - well, it's your country, your policy makers, your companies, your people at the top management, your fellow citizens who invest in your stock markets. If that is your choice, then that's that too, I have no complaints.

Raising to a bait and getting increasingly hateful and angry is hardly the way to convince anyone.

Of course, if your opinion is to simply ban everyone regardless, and preferably target it to a race, then that's a different topic that requires a different approach.

@R. Lawson - oh c'mon, Mein Kampf in India? Really? Let's rise above that kind of sensationalist nonsense, shall we? Just as a few people reading V. Nobokov's Lolita won't turn a country into paedophiles, a few people reading Mein Kampf won't turn Indians into Nazis. Besides, I've never known anyone who actually read it. Anyway, stay on topic please, if one has to find idiotic pieces of examples on any country, one can find it easily.

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Jun 9, 2011 4:16 AM Mark Mark  says: in response to dontknowwheretostart

The one who originally brought up all the BS about IQ's was an Indian H1b on here.

He was discussing how his IQ is so high compared to lower caste Indians and how he and other upper caste Indians here have been taught by the "highest IQ Amerians."

Pretty racist stuff and all without any evidence of course.

Eugenists would be proud.

So before you go criticizing any of us about "IQ discussions," consider who brought this whole thing up...and in a highly arrogant fashion I might add.

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Jun 9, 2011 4:48 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pk

Germans and Chinese are more than welcome here as far as I am concerned.

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Jun 9, 2011 5:14 AM dontknowwheretostart dontknowwheretostart  says: in response to Mark

@Mark - sorry, where exactly did I criticize any of "you" for IQ discussions? Besides - that wasn't the point of my post, was it?

I can't debate with haters - if your point is 'go home, you're all dimwits' then there isn't anything to say, is it? But if your (rather Dolores') had some specific debatable points, a lot us of are also willing and civil about talking over them, even if some are difficult topics.

Respect goes both ways, and I'm willing to respect you for your points if you're willing to respect me for mine. As long as we're happy calling each other 'curry smelling dimwit' and 'fat lazy stinky american', we're going to get nowhere. Not now, not ever.

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Jun 9, 2011 6:38 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to dontknowwheretostart

H1Bs are paid less than a 10% premium for being the "best and brightest". I believe US citizens get a 30-60% premium. This is also based on numbers that may be "fudged" a bit by the hiring company anyway. As for the "curry", Indian food is quite tasty and any Indian coming here to open a restaurant is more than welcome.

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Jun 9, 2011 6:51 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to pokerplayer

The issue is not with racism and hatred. It is with the sheer absurdity that 2/3 of the worlds "best and brightest" just happen to come from the same place. The accompanied arrogance and xenophobia turns unacceptable into infuriating for the US ex-worker.

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Jun 9, 2011 7:24 AM John John  says: in response to American Citizen

Without H1Bs Cisco would have ceased to exist in the business world a long time ago.  The american slave employees will never understand this simple fact...and that is why they are what they are...just slaves!

Moreover, American women have a misguided understanding, that if they have a college degree and competency, then somebody owes them a job.  However, in reality that's  not how things work in the real world.  They've been living in zombie land for way too long, that they've developed a sense of entitlement and perverted ownership of something that was never theirs in the first place.     

H1B are any day better than American women for a company.  The H1B is an asset.  The American women is a liability.

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Jun 9, 2011 11:59 AM pk pk  says: in response to Wakjob

America created shit, just about all the industries in America are based on ideas created or conceived by non Americans. Mass production, Railroads, automobiles, jet engines, petrol engines, airlines, television, electronics, laser disks and just about everything else, even the computer and software in the 1940's and the integrated circuit in the 1950's. The landing on the moon was done by Europeans mostly German. The Chinese had an oil industry over 800 years ago, I could go on.

Americans are good at exploiting and innovating which is not the same as inventing or creating. It just steals or reinvents a technology it and calls it, its own.

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Jun 12, 2011 2:40 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

Hmmmmm....so all the posters here are malnourished and uneducated and are engaged in bashing India with worthless remarks....Now get off your highhorse and go back to where you came from where you have the opportunity to be with the high IQ, well nourished intellectuals :P

Once again from a low IQ malnourished American - H1bs engage in the practice of fake resumes, fake referrals, seggregated recruiting to push Americans out of jobs in their own country.

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Jun 12, 2011 3:44 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to hireamerican

This is just SAT-level cause and effect. Not sure how many of you passed the exam; so here goes.

Education and Nourishment lead to good overall IQ. They move the average up. However, not all people with low IQ are malnourished and uneducated. In fact, it is perfectly possible to close your mind and let it atrophy.

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Jun 12, 2011 4:52 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to An_H1B

You have definitely closed your mind to the fact that those who are posting here have been robbed of their birthright, that is the ability to work and earn a decent living, due to fraudulent means by the H1bs.

There is something called the heart, which is what you are seeing people pour out here for the wrongs that they have experienced.

Ofcourse, you have definitely clsoed your mind to feelings from the heart - so when did it happen? When you made up your first fake resume?

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Jun 12, 2011 7:05 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to hoapres

Actually the Guest Workers Expsoed book calls it "The Hollywood Effect" - when a usually homogeneous group of people create something great out of love of doing something great, it creates all kinds of $ and that then attracts all the losers of the world who can't make it anywhere else - they eye all the $ and drive the creators out, then the place collapses because morons took it over. This is exactly what has happened to Silicon Valley and the US in general. Once Steve Jobs dies, expect it to happen to Apple next.

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Jun 12, 2011 7:07 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to hireamerican

"US Companies like IBM,Accenture, Deloitte etc had no choice but to follow INFOSYS, TCS etc...If not they would have gone out of business by now."

Haha! They ARE going out of business now. Both PeopleSoft and Sun would have closed their doors if they hadn't been sold off to Oracle. Quark nearly died and lost 60% of its customer base thanks to offshoring to India and an Indian CEO. Lehman, which hired Wipro and large numbers of Indians DID go under. Do did Fannie Mae which also hired lots of Indians.

Sorry, but the USA IS going down with you people running things.

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Jun 12, 2011 8:30 AM An_H1B An_H1B  says: in response to Mark

Just to be clear, my points about IQ were based solely on Gaussian distributions. The things that move the needle (the mu and sigma) as concerns IQ are nutrition and education.

The one contentious point I made was that the average IQ among the complainers here is sub-100. I made no remarks about IQs among castes or ethnicities.

Your comprehension as to my points is consistent with my hypothesis as to the complainers and their IQ. Barring R Lawson, the pattern among the complainers is to state a screamer that usually is India-bashing and then made inane supporting remarks having already proven to be idiots on the face of their starting point.

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Jun 13, 2011 5:21 AM quidam quidam  says:

Unfortunately, business is neither patriotic or humanitarian so if those are things you care about, you better start lobbying Congress for change.

I don't understand how anyone can NOT see the relationship between the 'need' for H-1b ('there aren't enough qualified citizens') and the sad state of our educational system coupled with a nutritional and social environment designed to 'dumb' everything down.

We need to rethink a bunch of stuff. Scrap H-1b. Maybe then employers will take an interest in getting better schools so they can have better employees (they were interested in this about 70 years ago). And start raising import duties and tariffs (once upon a time our entire Federal government was funded this way). If parts are imported to make a product, imported labor (either physical or virtual through offshoring) should be treated the same way.

We don't need to get isolationist, but we really need to stop giving away the store in the name of a quick buck now. These policies are having long-term negative affects. Germany hasn't gone this way and their growth is solid, and unemployment in check.

I'd like to hear from anyone who thinks if the shoe was on the other foot that India, Malaysia, China or others would happily import cheap labor or outsource it all without any fuss. Those places are as nationalistic as we are when the rubber hits the road.

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Jun 13, 2011 12:27 PM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to An_H1B

"This is just SAT-level cause and effect. Not sure how many of you passed the exam; so here goes."

Well obviously more of us passed the exam than Indians did since with an average IQ of 81 and massive economic failure of the US economy on their hands, Indians are incapable of doing anything that isn't in the criminal arena.

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Jun 16, 2011 4:13 AM Global Citizen Global Citizen  says:

I am an Indian on a H1B visa but I would like to offer some ideas for all the American Citizens who deserve better. If I was a US Citizen, I would focus my attention entirely on the law makers of the US. The fundamental problem lies there rather than any given company and much less an individual on any visa. If there is a consensus among the American elite that the H1B program is a fraud, if I was a US Citizen, I would try my best to gather fellow citizens in huge numbers and stage protests in front of the important Govt institutions.

People go where there is opportunity and that is the case with all the H1B workers in America. You guys have a great country and if every citizen got politically active and more or less aligned in the same right direction, unemployment and the likes of it would be a thing of the past.

As for the person who goes by "An_h1B", antagonizing people is not going to help anyone's cause in the long run. On a visa in another country, we are in someways an ambassador of our own. Building bridges and friends would be just brilliant for everyone's sake.

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Jun 16, 2011 5:19 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Global Citizen

Organizing and staging protests will make the US another third world country...protests are the only thing left for third world country status. Efforts are certainly underway to resolve the current issues. Go to NumbersUSA and check it out.

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Jun 16, 2011 8:45 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to hireamerican

Looks like this guy thought he was still living in India :P

www.wtae.com/news/28254633/detail.html

Lemme take a wild guess...he is either an H1B or got in via chain migration.

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Jun 16, 2011 11:10 AM Global Citizen Global Citizen  says: in response to hireamerican

Protests have happened in every country of the world. None to popular than the civil rights and anti Vietnam war protests (the ones lead by John Lennon included). Civilized protests are pretty powerful to put a point across about popular opinion.

One thing I have noticed on the web(as probably is the case in general as well) is that usually, people with extreme views are the ones to voice their opinions. As with any other nation there are nut cases in India as well. And that guy in your other post is one such person(if proven guilty). I think  for personal and collective benefit of everyone it is best that we do not develop any sort of a strong dislike/hatred towards a people based on a few bad apples.

Anyway I am in support of local people having the right for local jobs first. The right laws are the only thing that can ensure that.

You will find that there is talk of 'reverse brain drain' when it comes to India which is essentially about people heading back to India from various other nations as opportunities grow there. It is only a matter of time before India and China become big consumers and American products will have a great chance at taking the market share. So there is room for everyone to gain.  Take it easy and have fun.

I do hope that people in the US think that Indians as a people have had a net positive contribution for the US economy(and possibly culture) which I think is the case.

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Jun 17, 2011 9:41 AM Guest Guest  says:

It is Sad to read all the India-bashing in the comments. I am an indian working on a H1-B visa. I am not working for some cheap salary. I got a post-graduate degree here in US and now working for a big tech company.

  Obviously, there are people/companies gaming the US immigration system regarding H1-B, L1 and all the work visas but using that as a reason to attack all indians and make derogatory comments against India, claiming it as some 3rd world country and all the comments about toilets and what not is sad.........There will always be people who take advantage of some loopholes in the system and gain advantage......that doesn't mean every indian working on a H1B is some sort of scam artist working for cheap salary......

  Don't you think there are US citizens commiting fraud by taking advantage of some loopholes in medicare or anyother social welfare program for that matter.....does that make every american a scam artist....

No one denies H1B is a broken program.....and it should be fixed in a way that deters someone from taking advantage of it......but please don't use that as an excuse to go off against indians.......

  And no not all H1B workers are cheap labor....

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Jun 18, 2011 1:58 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to Guest

You would benefit greatly from H1B reform. 10-20% raise plus no phonies giving  you a bad name. But yes I agree, bigotry will not help any cause. No matter how arrogant those Indians can be! It can be hard to remember this though when you are a victim of genocide as it can be quite stressful.

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Jun 18, 2011 2:33 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Guest

I understand there are three levels of H1bs, better understood  in terms of EB-1,EB-2 and EB-3. It is the EB-2s and EB-3s that make up a bulk of the H1bs, and they are the the ones stinking up the joint.

The EB-2s and EB-3s are the ones that get away with the the fake resumes and fake references. All they have to do is give a friend's name as a reference. The employers hire outside companies that check the references, who simply call the references listed on a prospective employee's application and note down whatever the person at the other end of the phone call tells them. I can give my mother's name as a reference and they would not know the difference. It is that easy.

As for EB-1 type resources, they work in fields where everyone knows everyone in their respective fields, so it is not easy to get away with the fake stuff, but then they make up a very small percentage of H1bs anyways.

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Jun 18, 2011 3:29 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to hireamerican

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=0&;min=1&max=13&state=0&workers=0&jobtitle=nano

  1. H1Bs in 2011 containing "nano" in job title... a whopping 6 lol

  1. CONTAINING programmer and wage <50K= 80,000

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Jun 18, 2011 3:31 AM POKERPLAYER POKERPLAYER  says: in response to pokerplayer

h1bistro.com/default.aspx?year=0&;min=1&max=13&state=0&workers=0&jobtitle=programmer

sorry only 12,000. but still 12,000 compared to 6 hmmmm

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Jun 18, 2011 6:04 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to POKERPLAYER

Yes, Pokerplayer, the nano researcher types would fall into the EB-1 category. The rest are average who are nothing but cheap labor displacing American citizens under the guise of 'high-skilled':P

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Jun 18, 2011 6:59 AM FedUpWithBloviating FedUpWithBloviating  says: in response to Global Citizen

Global Citizen -- your support of the American worker is laudatory.  We have protested in the past -- in the early part of this century, when the downturn first started, a number of us did protest.  It didn't help -- in fact, in many cases, we were called xenophobes, racists, and unworthy of political concern.

It's a fact that members of Congress would sell their grandmothers if it would get them donations or ensure their election,  They have sold us out continuously to the largest purveyors of cheap labor -- and they will do it again -- possibly as soon as the next election cycle.

The last time they increased the H-1B limit, it was done on a voice vote without any debate, after most members were told there were no more votes to be taken.  In fact, most feel there was no legal quorum, but since no quorum call was taken -- we will never know.

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Jun 18, 2011 9:16 AM pokerplayer pokerplayer  says: in response to Guest

  For what jobs is it OK to bring in foreign labor? How many? Clearly if the flood gates are let open, every single job in the country (including policeman) will be filled by a foreign worker. So where does it end? After there is not a single American programmer or engineer, who will they replace to save more money?

   The term "genocide" comes to mind except it is a slower process and performed on a class rather than a race. It is still genocide as far as I am concerned. Not many middle class americans being born today right? The rich want the spoiled americans out of the picture, just GONE. Then they can rinse and repeat. No this is not to be blamed on Indians. In fact it is exactly what the rich want. Divide and conquer. And also to only anger small cross sections of the populace   (one occupation at a time).

As far as H1B, they could just outsource everything. But they need to get people to accept foreigners being brought in to do jobs that require being on-site in the US. Soon all jobs will be filled with cheap foreign labor.

We really are just considered livestock to the rich. You are either profitable to get milk from or be butchered.

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Jun 18, 2011 9:28 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Guest

You mention that you you received a post graduate degree in the US....How did you get your first job?

As far as I know, for ALL Indian graduate students, the standard practice is to get training from one of the Indian training institutes after or just before graduation. The training encompasses training on a particular software appplication, resume preparation with FAKE experience, and then marketing of the resume to companies that need resources. This is absolutely how it works.

Lying to gain an economic advantage is ILLEGAL.

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Jun 18, 2011 12:27 PM Guest Guest  says: in response to hireamerican

I worked as an intern at my current company and they then offered me the Job. Maybe you came across some people who did the things that you are mentioning and as I was pointing out not everyone is like that.

As far as I know, every major company does a full back ground check whenever they hire a full time employee. So, I am not sure how someone can get over that with fake resumes and fake experiences.......Maybe there might be some H1Bs doing that as a contractor....I don't want to comment on what I don't know......

All I am pointing out is not ALL H1Bs fit your description......I am all in for modifying H1B.....US Govt should make the laws more stringent so that only people with specific skill sets that US companies require should be allowed H1Bs...

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Jun 18, 2011 12:52 PM Guest Guest  says: in response to pokerplayer

I undestand your point. As far as who should be brought in over H1Bs...I will offer an example..Lets take the field of Nanotechnology. Although 90% of research and expertise on this field is in US universities, 75% of that is done by professors and students from foreign countries. If one of the US companies wants to hire one of these PHDs they most likely need the help of H1B visas...same goes with Hardware design etc. Most of the people graduating from US universities with post graduate degree in these fields are foreigners....and in some of these fields the percentage of foreigners graduating from US universities in speciality fields is as high as 90%. The entry level salary for these people from my experience is around 85-90K. So, it is not cheap labor too. These are the type of Jobs that a US company can't replace with an american citizen and these are not the type of jobs that fit the description of cheap labor.

  I suspect most of the issues with H1B might be in the IT field and laws should be made more strict in that area....

  I can understand you, but all I was requesting in my previous post was not to paint all the indians working on H1Bs with the same brush...Have a Good Weekend!

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Jun 22, 2011 12:17 PM Global Citizen Global Citizen  says: in response to FedUpWithBloviating

A part of the greatness of the American people is their liberal mindset on an average. I could be wrong, but there are some who are inordinately liberal which is not good for anyone's cause. That aside, I still think there is something to people power. Even in a country like India where corruption in the political circles is rampant, people power can and has made those in power respond to mass protests. I think the average American politician is more honest that the Indian one and so I think if mass protests can have meaning in India, it might have an even better one in the American context if done peacefully and necessarily in large numbers and very peacefully and with media coverage.

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Jun 23, 2011 12:00 PM cantcit cantcit  says: in response to Guest

Bull crap, just because you don't have quality education in your country and choose to study in the US doesn't grant you automatic H1B status. Go home and apply the knowledge you learned in the US to benefit you own country and make it a better place. Quit leaching off what the americans have built and calling it yours.  Secondly the majority of engineers in my graduating class were male americans with a few foreigners.

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Jun 24, 2011 6:22 AM americanbybirth americanbybirth  says:

You have no idea; Cisco was founded as an American company taking its name from one of America's best-known cities. It was founded by a group of Stanford Grads, yes once again American. Now Cisco has turned into one of the largest abusers of the H-1B program in the US. Not stopping there is has sent American jobs overseas at an alarming rate. They call it "offshore or outsourcing". As far as how much an impact H1B will have on layoffs, don't hold your breath since a large majority of senior management is in or from India. Don't feed me this crap about a global economy, just look at the positions that are being filled in the US by H1B workers, the only reason for this is it's cheaper to import workers than pay benefits to people that deserve to live and work in the US. Ask any H1B worker, "what branch of the US military did you or one of your relatives serve in"? What is your social security number for tax purposes, Medicare and social security? Cisco doesn't have the right to call itself an "American company" anymore; a name change would also be in order.

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Jun 29, 2011 4:46 AM Joe Joe  says: in response to americanbybirth

Many of H1Bs got their Green Cards and few more will get in next 2 months. Cisco is biggest sponsor of GCs, compared to other Tech companies they use/abuse H1B visas, but they don't sponsor GCs to them.

The # H1bs is ~500 now, this is a negligible number for compared to Citizens and GC employed at Cisco, On H1B people work extended hrs for the same or less salary compared to Citizen or GC holder to save their status, That's the reason companies love them to stay. They work extended hrs by scarifying their family time, while others Njoy evenings, summer vacations..:-).

So please stop blaming H1/L1, learn to work with Global teams. In this globalization era.

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Jul 1, 2011 3:07 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Joe

Do you know that on an H1 visa, it is illegal to work extended hours without getting paid for it?

If your company is making you work for more than 40 hours and not paying you for the extra hours, your company is breaking the law big time!!!

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Jul 6, 2011 1:19 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

Would you direct everyone on "where is it got mentioned" so that all H1b resources can benefit out of it ?

You had just provided false information with no reference to prove your point.

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Jul 6, 2011 5:05 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Go look it up yourself. It is not difficult to find it.

Also, H1bs are actively managing their own businesses in the US, which is very much illegal.

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Jul 7, 2011 6:43 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

How about you sharing if you really know about (may be by now you know your mistake and decided to dodge my question!!!)...there is nothing like beyond 40hrs h1b employees have to be paid. Every h1b employees are full time (very rare case you can get h1 approval for part time ) and they are not required to get paid for more that 40hrs unless it is company policy to pay for extra hours. People working in IT jobs are exempt from over payment as per federal law so do h1 employees who work on those positions.

Instead of keep throwing vague, false, hateful and useless comments better prove your that statement is correct with credible reference. Whenever someone ask to prove your statement you always throwing some more trash and digging yourself in more deep.

Do you really know what it takes to get h1b approval for a company?

Do you think with a letter pad and no turnover you can get h1 approval?

One thing is very clear, you never owned a company or reached to a level where you can understand how companies run. Just working at least possible position in a company won't provide you with required insight of how to operate a company and what it takes to get any kind immigration visa approval.

If you don't know what are you talking about then better don't talk and prove your ignorance to whole world?

You wanted to sound like American, but people who read your comments (more south Indian history, religions, and to my wonder deep caste details but very poor knowledge on immigration,economy,politics related stuffs) can easily say your are not. To me you sound like a south Indian, who like to have fun by throwing some trash comments (with no credible reference) across many blogs/forums.

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Jul 8, 2011 2:25 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

So funny....thanks for your fun talk...still you didn't show from where you derived that innovative (misinformation) law ....

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Jul 8, 2011 6:40 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Obviously your goal is to spread misinformation....IT workers are exempt upto 45 Hours....but in H1b it is not....

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Jul 8, 2011 7:20 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

Show every one from where you derived this (mis)information...now you mean to say after 45hrs/week every IT workers have be paid Over Time ? wow...you continue your own way of digging more deeper when ask for any explanation. Hourly pay is for contractors not for full time employees and H1b candidates cannot be paid as contractors because a company can sponsor h1b only for full time positions not for contract jobs.

Instead of providing more (mis)information how about providing credible source for your information. Hope you are in US and speaking about US labor law...learn from DOL website what it means exempt...

From where I derived my statement ? you can verify that from below pdf.... www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17a_overview.pdf

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Jul 8, 2011 9:02 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Whatever :P

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Jul 8, 2011 10:08 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

The devil is in the details, when you mix the H1b in here.

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Jul 8, 2011 10:29 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

So, is that all you can provide for others to validate your (mis)information?

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Jul 8, 2011 11:49 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

YUP.

When an H1b employer runs a fake payroll, which inevitably happens, the exempt status comes unravelling, and there opens the door for overtime :).

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Jul 12, 2011 3:54 AM Indian Indian  says: in response to hireamerican

Its indian who make the wrong work culture for working extra hours without overtime, though in india this is common because of weak law but US is great country, but few greedy indian spoiling everything.

The fact is every indian in US is suppose to train local talent, also US companies hiring foreigner for a skills where local talent is not avaliable should also work to provide trainning on that skills to local people..

As far as i know now people is not ready to go to US because saving is not more and job Uncertainty. Also US should put condition of experience ( like 6+) of guy coming to US on H1B so that only best people will come there..

Also my suggestion to US that they should not purchase cheap chin'se product which is reducing US companies profit..

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Jul 15, 2011 5:10 AM Xsevern Xsevern  says:

As someone who worked for Cisco from 2000 - 2009 I can tell you with certainty that there are an in-proportional number of non-H1B visa workers laid off when layoffs occur. 

It is a farce to believe that the H1B workers are temporary workers. Cisco pays the attorney fees for H1B visa workers to get green cards, and can typically file extensions on H1B work permits until green card status is obtained.  If this doesn't work, Cisco has a LARGE multi-billion dollar campus in India, where the majority of the H1B visa holders came from, and they can return there to work.  Many of the managers within Cisco are H1B visa holders, and the buddy system is well established as they continue to hire more and more H1B visa holders, even though there are ample American citizens fully qualified to fill the positions.

Cisco is not a fair company, since the layoffs in 2001 it has been run by bean counters who time and time again prove to be penny foolish, pound wise.  As someone who worked at Cisco HQ for nine years, I can tell you that there are far more non U.S. citizens working there then U.S. citizens. 

Since it lost it's way after the dot.com implosion, it has been a company run by fear, exceedingly poor management, and greed.  Promotions are given without raises, only additional responsibility.  Stock options are all but gone for all but the chosen few who "lead" the company, but the individual contributors who make the company run are all but forgotten. 

Chambers needs to retire, it's clear that his vision is clouded by obscurity and ineffectiveness. He is seriously out of touch with reality, and the individual contributors that keep the company running.  Chambers used to genuinely care, he was in touch with what was going on in the industry, and recognized that by understanding and respecting the needs of the workers, it paid off in spades with higher productivity, trust and a general sense of pride.  Chambers used to make the rounds around campus, involved with every day operations, visiting and talking with the individuals that made Cisco what it was.  That hasn't happened for years (unless you count the birthday breakfast, which is more like an all hands meeting these days).

Multi-million dollar projects are driven into Cisco culture, yet they fail at a higher rate than California sub-prime mortgages. Management and organizational changes are made so often that it's impossible to tell if a positive impact was ever obtainable, let alone actually achieved.

One other interesting bit of information.   Cisco has masterfully laid off employees before and is very good at keeping it out of the press.  Back in 2001 they laid off 8,500 employees.  It made all the news headlines.  There were new crews out on Tasman Drive trying to interview Cisco employees that would talk to them (we were told we could not speak with the media).  I've read recent accounts that cite the 2001 layoffs as 1,000 - 2,000, but there were 8,500 people laid off.

In 2009, they did a "limited restructuring" and laid off an additional 3,500 employees.  This time to keep it under the media radar, they meticulously laid off smaller groups of people over a longer period of time as to not catch the attention of the media.  Who knows what they will "actually" do this time, but I know from acquaintances that still work there that things have been very bad there for some time, and they have nothing else to cut anymore, aside from laying people off.

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Jul 15, 2011 5:11 AM Xsevern Xsevern  says:

As someone who worked for Cisco from 2000 - 2009 I can tell you with certainty that there are an in-proportional number of non-H1B visa workers laid off when layoffs occur. 

It is a farce to believe that the H1B workers are temporary workers.Cisco pays the attorney fees for H1B visa workers to get green cards, and can typically file extensions on H1B work permits until green card status is obtained. If this doesn't work, Cisco has a LARGE multi-billion dollar campus in India, where the majority of the H1B visa holders came from, and they can return there to work. Many of the managers within Cisco are H1B visa holders, and the buddy system is well established as they continue to hire more and more H1B visa holders, even though there are ample American citizens fully qualified to fill the positions.

Cisco is not a fair company, since the layoffs in 2001 it has been run by bean counters who time and time again prove to be penny foolish, pound wise. As someone who worked at Cisco HQ for nine years, I can tell you that there are far more non U.S.citizens working there then U.S.citizens. 

Since it lost it's way after the dot.com implosion, it has been a company run by fear, exceedingly poor management, and greed. Promotions are given without raises, only additional responsibility. Stock options are all but gone for all but the chosen few who "lead" the company, but the individual contributors who make the company run are all but forgotten. 

Chambers needs to retire, it's clear that his vision is clouded by obscurity and ineffectiveness.He is seriously out of touch with reality, and the individual contributors that keep the company running. Chambers used to genuinely care, he was in touch with what was going on in the industry, and recognized that by understanding and respecting the needs of the workers, it paid off in spades with higher productivity, trust and a general sense of pride. Chambers used to make the rounds around campus, involved with every day operations, visiting and talking with the individuals that made Cisco what it was. That hasn't happened for years (unless you count the birthday breakfast, which is more like an all hands meeting these days).

Multi-million dollar projects are driven into Cisco culture, yet they fail at a higher rate than California sub-prime mortgages.Management and organizational changes are made so often that it's impossible to tell if a positive impact was ever obtainable, let alone actually achieved.

One other interesting bit of information.  Cisco has masterfully laid off employees before and is very good at keeping it out of the press. Back in 2001 they laid off 8,500 employees. It made all the news headlines. There were new crews out on Tasman Drive trying to interview Cisco employees that would talk to them (we were told we could not speak with the media). I've read recent accounts that cite the 2001 layoffs as 1,000 - 2,000, but there were 8,500 people laid off.

In 2009, they did a "limited restructuring" and laid off an additional 3,500 employees. This time to keep it under the media radar, they meticulously laid off smaller groups of people over a longer period of time as to not catch the attention of the media. Who knows what they will "actually" do this time, but I know from acquaintances that still work there that things have been very bad there for some time, and they have nothing else to cut anymore, aside from laying people off. Reply

Jul 15, 2011 5:11 AM Xsevern Xsevern  says:
Jul 17, 2011 5:08 AM GB GB  says: in response to Dolores

I have no idea what your degree level is.  You could have a Ph.D. from MIT in Computer Engineering and work in R&D for NASA.  But based on your comments, you are a bitter person whose posts are not rational.  Grow up and take responsibility for your actions.  Stop with the blame game and the name calling.

Reply
Jul 17, 2011 5:23 AM GB GB  says: in response to Wakjob

Whoa, you worked at Sony and Apple?!  Yet you are now unemployed even though you were so great.  Let me guess, it was a conspiracy of a secret Indian cabal that was gunning for you and prevented you from obtaining a job.  According to answers.com, Playstation was invented in 1991.  What have you been doing since then.  If you're so great, why did Steve Jobs not keep you working at Apple?  Is it because you didn't keep your skill-sets up to date?  Is it because nobody at your previous jobs liked you?  Is it because you may be a victim of ageism?  Could be worse, you could be a victim of sexism - way less than 50% of engineers or CXOs or politicians are women.  You know, if you're so great, you may want to try working as a consultant or starting your own company.  Just a piece of friendly and hopefully constructive advice to someone who has in-demand skill-sets.

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Jul 17, 2011 5:31 AM GB GB  says: in response to Jobs4Americans

At least one fact in your call to arms is wrong.  I have many Canadian friends on work visas who used to work at Microsoft but got laid off in 2009/2010.  I wonder how much other info in your comment(s) is inaccurate.

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Jul 17, 2011 5:53 AM GB GB  says: in response to Dolores

Yes, I can see how the Great Books colleges listed in Wikipedia can give Harvard/MIT/Stanford a run for their money.

"Several schools maintain some version of a Great Books Program as an option for students. Some of the most prominent schools are the University of Notre Dame, Boston College, Boston University ("Core Curriculum"), Pepperdine University, Baylor University ("Great Texts"), University of San Francisco, Mercer University, University of Dallas, Gutenberg College, New Saint Andrews College, the Torrey Honors Institute at Biola University, Saint Anselm College, the Integral Liberal Arts program at Saint Mary's College of California (Moraga), the Hutchins School at Sonoma State University, the Great Conversation, American Conversations, Asian Conversations, and Science Conversation programs at St. Olaf College, The Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, Franciscan University of Steubenville, the Thomas Jefferson Center for the Study of Core Texts and Ideas at the University of Texas at Austin, and the Louisiana Scholars' College at Northwestern State University (Natchitoches).[4] In Canada Great Books programs exist at the College of the Humanities at Carleton University, at the University of King's College (the Foundation Year Programme), at Tyndale University College in Toronto, at the Liberal Arts College at Concordia University, at St. Thomas University (New Brunswick), and at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."

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Jul 17, 2011 6:08 AM GB GB  says: in response to GB

Crap, I just realized I wasted around 2 hours of my life reading and responding to a lot of garbage.  A lot of IT jobs have been sourced to Ireland, Poland, and Israel.  Many people from all across the world immigrate to the US.  And there may be other reasons for companies failing, e.g. bad decisions by corporate executives, e.g. Enron, Lehman Brothers, GM.  Try reading this article: www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2081930,00.html?artId=2081930?contType=article?chn=bizTech .  Good luck to all of you.  With your attitudes, you'll need it.

Reply
Jul 18, 2011 9:42 AM Joe Joe  says: in response to hireamerican

I think you live law books than real life, The people with title VP, SVP, Direcotr and Manager are working late evenings to save their Jobs, Do you think they all paid for that.

Reply
Aug 4, 2011 2:27 AM jeux casino jeux casino  says:

There are definitely a whole lot of details like that to take into consideration. That is a nice point to deliver up. I offer the thoughts above as basic inspiration however clearly there are questions like the one you bring up where an important thing will be working in honest good faith. I don?t know if best practices have emerged around things like that, but I'm positive that your job is clearly recognized as a good game. Each boys and girls feel the impact of only a second's pleasure, for the remainder of their lives.

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Nov 25, 2011 3:58 AM John Doe John Doe  says:

Because of a huge backlash against H1B workers following new problems have emerged -

a. What corporates are doing is they are outsourcing more work to offshore than ever.So either ways H-1 or no H-1 visa, american jobs are getting lost.

b. These outsourcing companies bring people onsite on B-1 Visa which does not require them to pay taxes in US. (e.g. Search on google for Infosys B1 visa case)

So atleast with H-1B , they have to pay taxes and Social security ...which gets  lost if companies go outsourcing.

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Dec 7, 2011 1:20 AM Biff Jones Biff Jones  says: in response to John Doe

Face it we screwed up. If we wanted the U.S. to produce engineers, the government would subsidize engineering degrees from the particular engineering schools that produce top engineers and make those subsides available to U.S. citizens only. Charge more for people taking stupid majors that aren't needed and only facilitate fun times in college.

This is what the engineering hierarchy looks like in America. The top is full of white guys with titles including Director or VP, Strategic, Marketing. The from there down are all Asian. At the bottom are white contractors and new hires typically older than any of the hire levels. In fact, often times they used to be senior engineers over the ones that are now above.  

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Mar 14, 2012 6:15 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

Well the H-1Bs are who CAUSED the layoffs by ruining yet another once-great American company. Everywhere these people go, there is decline, destruction, and collapse.

Reply
Dec 13, 2012 7:53 AM cara cara  says:
"If "An H1B" was indeed telling the truth about himself, he definitely isn't typical." Yes, I agree. That is the problem with the system. If it was intended to bring over the "best and brightest" it hasn't served that purpose. Well, I guess it all boils down to how you define "best and brightest". 1/3 of white adult working males has just a high-school diploma. So if that is the bar, they are certainly more educated because the minimum requirement is a college degree. I define "Best and brightest" as just that - the top 5 percentile. Not "ordinary workers". The top 5 percent should also earn well above average wages and distinguished themselves in college. So if "An H-1b" is telling the truth he probably fits in that category. He is posting anonymously so I don't take his comments as seriously as someone posting under their real name. Reply
Aug 20, 2013 3:01 AM Evaluate Claims through Sacramento Robert L Meissner Lawyer Evaluate Claims through Sacramento Robert L Meissner Lawyer  says:
Your post is extremely useful for the Visa Holders and I am very glad to know about Cisco System, which is one of the biggest sponsors of H-1B visas. Reply
Oct 9, 2016 2:50 PM Jerome Dillon Jerome Dillon  says: in response to cara
Cara you are right, H1b is intended to bring the 'best and brightest' but sadly companies are abusing it to bring cheap labor from overseas and as of now Asia is the hot bed. Saying more specifically more then 80% of the H1b visa holders in US are South Indians Only. I worked in a tech sector for a while, 70-75% employees at my work place are H1b visa holders and you know what exactly took me by surprise, they are all from 2-3 South Indian States, I didn't met a single person holding H1b from any other nationality. I worked with same company for 7 years and we have nearly 140 H1b employees and there is one more thing I want to bring up, I spoke to few of them and came to know that only few of them are directly hired from India and then later brought up here on H1b sponsorship, most of them came to US as an international students and after finishing their studies they get a job in tech companies through employment staffing agencies who takes a big share of their monthly salaries and in turn help them with getting H1b visas. I don't know for sure how legitimate this process is but you can Google "H1b visa scam by Employment Staffing Agencies" to know more about this. Reply

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