Why the U.S. Technology Work Force Needs the Asian Influence

Don Tennant
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As college graduation season unfolds, it would be fascinating to find out what percentage of graduates with academic honors in technology-related degree programs in the United States are either foreign nationals from Asia, recent immigrants from Asia, or the children of recent immigrants from Asia. It's probably not going too far out on a limb to predict that the percentage will be disproportionately high. If that is indeed the case, we're faced with a choice: Do we summon the courage to ask ourselves why that's the case, or do we ignore it so we don't have to come to grips with it?

 

Let me note at the outset that for the purpose of this discussion, I'm considering India to be part of Asia. So can the overall high academic performance of students from India and the rest of Asia be attributed to simply being smarter than their non-Asian contemporaries? I don't think any such argument could be taken seriously. Rather, my own observation, after having lived nearly a third of my life in Asia and observed Asian culture nearly all of my adult life, is that Asian students come from families that tend to place a greater emphasis on education and studiousness in general, and high academic achievement in particular, than the families of Western students.

 

I would argue that that influence is a very positive one, and I can speak from personal experience in doing so. Since our focus here is on technology, I'll mention the two of my four kids who have pursued educations and careers in that field - my two sons, Don and Dan.

 

Don graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in 2003 with a degree in computer science, ninth in his class with a 4.0 GPA. That earned him a full scholarship to attend Cambridge University in the UK, where he received a master's degree in computer science. A decorated veteran of service in the Persian Gulf, he's now a senior consultant for IBM.


 

Dan graduated magna cum laude from Worcester Polytechnic Institute in Massachusetts in 2009, with a double major in interactive media and game development (IMGD) and professional writing. When he graduated he was recruited directly into MIT Lincoln Laboratory, where he's winding down his service to return to WPI. He was recently awarded a fellowship to attend the IMGD master's degree program there, and to serve as a research assistant.

 

Don and Dan grew up in Asia. I have no doubt that the influence of the Asian work ethic and the priority placed on academic excellence was a major factor in their success. They expected nothing less than excellence of themselves, and they worked tirelessly to achieve it. So how can students and workers in the United States who don't have the opportunity to live in Asia be exposed to this ethic and be challenged by its influence? Part of the answer lies in a statement released on Thursday by four members of the President's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness.

 

That statement is titled, "The Great Debate: America Needs a 21st Century Immigration Policy." The four writers were Steve Case, CEO of Revolution; John Doerr, Partner at Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers; Paul Otellini, CEO of Intel; and Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook. They said there are three things we need to do to overcome our stagnation in developing a highly-educated work force.

 

First, they said, we need to invest in homegrown talent that's educated in the STEM disciplines:

The U.S. education system must be improved, top to bottom, so that our most precious resource-our children-can compete in the increasingly global world economy. Statistically our K-12 students are falling farther behind students in Korea, China and elsewhere in the physical sciences. We can and must do better.

Second, we need to allow U.S. employers to recruit and retain the world's brightest talent:

We need a pro-growth based green card system to replace the current system that is plagued with years-long backlogs. Waiting a decade or more during the H-1B specialty visa and green card process demoralizes the next great American immigrant Nobel laureate. More of them are returning to their home countries, like China and India, and driving new scientific breakthroughs and innovations there.

Third, we need to use the green card as an incentive to keep highly educated foreign talent here:

We should staple a green card to every advanced diploma in critical fields to keep foreign-born students graduating from a U.S. university or college here in America, working for our future. Today foreign nationals account for 50% of master's degrees and 70% of Ph.D. degrees in electrical and electronic engineering in the U.S. Yet, our antiquated immigration laws numerically limit the numbers of these individuals, by the thousands, from entering our country annually. What kind of strategy is it to train the world's best and brightest in our great universities-and then require them to leave?

Of course there will be those who argue that the President's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness is just an arm of an elaborate conspiracy to throw Americans out of work and import cheap labor from overseas. So be it. The fact remains that U.S. students and workers need the opportunity to compete directly against the best and brightest from around the world in order to raise our bar of excellence far higher than it is now. The recommendations of the President's Council would help us accomplish that. Anyone who has played sports knows that you play your best game when you're matched up against your toughest opponents. It's time for us to demonstrate the fortitude to do that. It's time for us to raise our game.



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May 20, 2011 1:15 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

I'll have to side with you for having the decency to express your views without the insults and personal attacks. I will have to call you on the hyperbole, though. This isn't about "Asian superiority." This is about people from different cultures being willing to learn from each other. No race, creed, ethnicity or nationality is superior to any other. But that doesn't mean that different cultures don't have values that other cultures would be well served to emulate. Remembering our own kids is precisely the point of my post. Where we appear to differ is that in my view, appreciating the values of a different culture can help us help our own kids.

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May 20, 2011 1:23 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Well, maybe I'm just cranky being an American IT worker (and blonde and blue-eyed on top of that) but I've been treated to the rhetoric and I'm especially disturbed at reports of hiring discrimination and visa abuse that are in the published news as well as on the grapevine. More of that is the last thing we need right now.

Nobody is saying, "No foreigners." but there IS an urgent need to get all Americans back to full and optimal employment, ASAP. That is something that has become obvious.

And with the well documented shortage of jobs at all levels, I feel we can make a case - at least until things are back to normal - for strengthening the protections we actually already have - Americans ARE supposed to be considered for jobs before non-immigrant visa holders, and holders of the student visa ARE supposed to go home and help their own countries. That was the original intent of the law, and it certainly wasn't sinister in intent.

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May 20, 2011 1:26 AM POed Lib POed Lib  says:

Anti-american bilge from Don the Asian pimp is no surprise. The question is, what exactly have asians done that is so impressive? The answer is NOTHING. No innovation of any value. No inventions. They are good at following orders, sometimes. I've employed a number of asian H-1bs, unfortunately, and have always regretted it. The asian rote memory model of schooling means that none of them are innovative.  They require constant supervision.

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May 20, 2011 1:33 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

I've been to Japan many times and am married to a Japanese woman - so familiar with Asian culture (well, at least Japanese culture - and Korean culture from my step mother).  I don't think we can lump all Asian nations together - that's just like lumping all European nations together and making some broad based judgement.  There are Asian nations that excel in academia, and other Asian nations or regions where human survival is an every-day struggle and education isn't their immediate concern.

That said, I think there are things to admire about education in Japan.  One of my favorite things is the shorter summer break.  I believe we are doing our kids a huge disservice by taking them away from their studies for such a long period of time.  They spend the first part of the next year reviewing what they forgot over the summer.  There is no reason not to have year-round school.  Primary education is the first step in improving overall education.  That needs to come first.

There are also things I don't admire about Japanese culture.  One thing is what I would describe as a conformist culture.  I believe this results in "group think" and stifles innovation.  I see this changing as western cultures, the Internet, and young people challenge older Japanese customs - so young people in Japan I believe will be more innovative than older generations.

There are some Japanese customs that I respect allot - such as the concept of family honor.  After the tsunami you didn't see looting, or people with their hands out.  You haven't seen corporations profiteering and gaming the system to take advantage of a bad situation.  I really think the Japanese will band together and resolve their latest crises much more admirably than how we handled Katrina.  The aftermath of Katrina is something that should cause all Americans some degree of shame, on many different levels.

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May 20, 2011 1:34 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don  writes:

"No race, creed, ethnicity or nationality is superior to any other."

Here's some data I received on the testing of American students.

Quite revealing,   also disturbing!

Black students nationally score at rock bottom on SAT and ACT with no outcry or action from leaders or parents.

These  scores predict and parallel low college admission rates, high unemployment rates and high incarceration rates.  Black students are in trouble!      

National SAT scores by various categories for class of 2010

By score and group:

.     1721: Students reporting family incomes

of more than $200,000 a year

.     1714: Students who had taken AP

or honors courses in natural sciences

.     1636: Asians

.     1580: Whites

.     1558: Students who took core curriculum

.     1546: Students who previously took PSAT/NMSQT (a pre-SAT)

.     1523: Boys

.     1510: Students reporting family incomes

of $60,000 to $80,000 a year

.     1509: National average

.     1496: Girls

.     1444: American Indian

or Alaskan natives

.     1407: Students who did not take

core curriculum

.     1400: Students who did not take

PSAT/NMSQT

.     1369: Mexican and Mexican Americans

.     1363: Latinos (excluding Mexicans,

Mexican Americans and Puerto Ricans)

.     1349: Puerto Ricans

.     1329: Students reporting family incomes

of less than $20,000 a year

.     1277: African Americans

Source: SAT 2010

National Average ACT Composite Score by Race/Ethnic Group, 2010

Asian American/Pacific Islander 23.4

Caucasian American/White 22.3

American Indian/Alaska Native 19.0

Hispanic 18.6

African American/Black 16.9

Source: ACT 2010

    But   no  one discusses this disparity in test scores.  It isn't politically correct.

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May 20, 2011 1:36 AM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says: in response to Don Tennant

It is you, Don that are distasteful; in the context of wide-spread corporate discrimination of US talent, you continue to propagate "superiority" myths, defending the culture of bypass and displacement.

You are following in the footsteps of Americans who argued for corporate discrimination of Blacks and women, using "personal views" based on "personal experience" during the context of ending corporate discrimination.

Like Bull Connor, you "hose down" Americans who can't get a fair chance to compete for job openings in our own country.  Like Bull Connor, you "hose down" unemployed Indians who languish in guest houses, without a penny to their names.

I am, in fact, in a unique position to admonish you, and any other American who uses a public forum to defend this reprehensible state of affairs. 

I was the one who got Durbin's office to introduce H1-b & L-1 reform.  I was the one who established Bright Future Jobs.  I was the one who revealed the wide-spread posting of discriminatory want ads for US job openings on Dan Rather Reports.

Ask not what destroying American Opportunity and the trafficking of unemployed Indian techs can do for you, Don.

Ask what you can write, in the context of discrimination and trafficking, that steps our nation and our globe out of this quagmire.

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May 20, 2011 1:40 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to EngiNERD

Are you arguing that blacks are inferior to the other races?

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May 20, 2011 1:56 AM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says: in response to Don Tennant

Black Computer Science graduates essentially reached parity in 2006; no longer can they be dismissed as an "under-represented minority", according to a study released by the National Society of Black Engineers.

If their graduation rates continue, they will be over-represented in Computer Science degrees.

Silicon Valley now has fewer White, Black, Hispanic and Female IT professionals than in 2000, according to the SJ Mercury News.

Mythological superiority always accompanies legal discrimination.

Don, your columns are framed in these superiority myths as you commit a serious error of omission: failing to report legal corporate discrimination.

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May 20, 2011 2:00 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Don Tennant

EngiNERD: "Black students nationally score at rock bottom on SAT and ACT with no outcry or action from leaders or parents."

Don:"Are you arguing that blacks are inferior to the other races?"

It is clear that black students (on average) aren't performing as well academically, however it has nothing to do with their race and everything to do with their economic situation.  Poor students across all racial boundries perform much worse than students from wealthier families. 

The key to improving scores among poor students across all races is to improve their economic situation.  Communities fund schools.  If a community is primarily poor, their schools will be underfunded.  Their children will be less able to compete, and ultimately will find themselves in lower paying jobs so the cycle will continue.

I believe that black people are for the most part a silent victim of our current immigration programs (among other policies).  They are impacted the most, but strangely most black advocacy groups remain quiet on the matter.  A few have taken positions recently which I find interesting.

Also, welfare is a curse on poor people.  Whenever a social safety-net becomes a way of life, there are big problems.  We must acknowledge that for many people (across all racial lines) it is a lifestyle spanning generations; if you are raised that way, chances are you will continue on doing it.  Political correctness should not prevent us from solving complex problems like this. 

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May 20, 2011 2:10 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Donna Conroy, Director

Thank you for anything you've done that has helped anyone.

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May 20, 2011 2:34 AM POed Lib POed Lib  says:

The STAPLE Act is an acronym for "Structure the Age Prejudice to Leave Employees At Corporate Tyranny" The H-1B system is a method for systematic, deliberate and insidious age discrimination, where anyone 35 or older is dumped in favor of the oversupply of cheap labor. What is implicit in all of this is the terrible lie that there is a uniquely best qualified individual for a job. That is not true. There are often hundreds of qualified individuals. Some are not trained in the microscopic requirements for a job. Today's corporate culture of Disposable Enginneers means that corporations use these qualified individuals for 10 years after college, and then discard them like disposable razors. We do not need a huge pool of cheap labor to allow corporations to simply discard their old labor to get new cheap labor. We need a policy which works for AMERICAN families.

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May 20, 2011 2:39 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says: in response to R. Lawson

Good  Point...     (Economically) Poor students across all racial boundries perform much worse than students from wealthier families. 

Here's something else about African-American workers

What isn't anyone discussing the following:

Jim Crow in Silicon Valley is Exposed

www.eiass.com/Article-JimCrowe.html

Why Indian H-1Bs Are Not Superior

And Aframericans Are Not Cry Babies

www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/Library/Archives/TonyBrown.htm

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May 20, 2011 3:03 AM Mark Petersen Mark Petersen  says:

Conveniently ignored in this article is the fact that Americans flocked to STEM professions in years past.  This was the case up until the H-1B floodgates opened and IT/engineering jobs were outsourced by the millions.  America's best and brightest have long since seen the hand-writing on the wall and have avoided these professions.  This is the sole reason for the current dominance of Asian students in STEM related courses at American universities. 

Rather than contributing to this problem by bringing in even more cheap foreign workers, we as a nation need to realize that this short-term distortion will kill us in the long run because 1) it enables overseas competition 2) It contributes to reverse brain drain  3) it leads to key shortages of American born STEM talent in areas requiring American workers (defense fields for example) 4) It deprives jobs from America's best and brightest STEM workers while also reducing the standard of living of those who decide to tough it out and stay in the profession (wouldn't it be nice if STEM workers could work with Americans for a change?) 5) It contributes to the dangerous myth that Americans are too lazy to excel in STEM fields.

The myth perpetuated in this article seems to be that only Asians can excel in STEM fields.  The reality is that you only see people flocking to this country from low cost countries which just happen to be mostly from China and India.  It's not about Asians, it's about low cost foreign labor.  By contrast, Germany is an export powerhouse and seems to do just fine paying high wages to workers without flooding their country with Asian workers. 

Americans need to wake up and realize that immigration in this country is being driven by the Wall Street Robber Barons.  Greedy corporate America realizes that the job market is based on supply and demand.  Reduce the demand (outsourcing) while increasing the supply (immigration) means more money for the Robber Barons and less for the workers via lower wages.

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May 20, 2011 3:58 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says: in response to Mark Petersen

Mark  Peterson writes:

Conveniently ignored in this article is the fact that Americans flocked to STEM professions in years past.

Let  me  point all of you to

Why Americans Don't Study Science-It Doesn't Pay

www.vdare.com/rubenstein/050215_nd.htm

What Kind of Country Destroys the Job Market for Its Own Citizens?

  By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

www.counterpunch.org/roberts07162005.html

How Young Engineers and Our Economy Are Betrayed

www.creators.com/opinion/phyllis-schlafly/how-young-engineers-and-our-economy-are-betrayed.html

Bye Bye Engineering

www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38064

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May 20, 2011 4:51 AM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says: in response to Mark Petersen

Legal discrimination ALWAYS creates an oversupply.  That's why we have an over abundance of experienced, highly-skilled IT professionals and new sci & tech grads whom we've paid dearly to educate!

Did you know that two of the original Greensboro 4, who started the Lunch counter sit-ins, were science and engineering majors? Joseph McNeil, was studying engineering and Franklin McCain was majoring in chemistry when they launched the lunch counter sit-ins back in 1960. They changed the circumstances of their lives and our entire nation.

At that time, American technology firms were legally allowed to discriminate against both of them, despite graduating in these fields. Not until 1964, with the passage of the Equal Opportunity, did these men have the freedom to compete for jobs he was qualified to do-right in their own country!

ONLY HIRING creates shortages.  In Silicon Valley in the 1970s, there was a shortage of qualified Americans...so IT firms hired UNQUALIFIED Americans - and trained the hell out of them.

I can't wait until we have a shortage.  That means all the highly talented Americans will be back at work and rebuilding our national economy!

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May 20, 2011 5:35 AM POed Lib POed Lib  says:

What's amazing is the ignorance of many in this country about the university system and it's basic function and mission. Take the Land Grant system, founded in 1865, and containing many or most of the best universities in this country. I quote "Your new employer, North Dakota State University, is a land-grant institution. But what does that mean?  A land-grant university is directed to educate the people of its state and solve problems through academic, research and extension programs." Note that the mission involves the education of the people OF THAT STATE. Not of China, or India, or Pakistan. Of the STATE THAT THE UNIVERSITY IS IN. SO why is it that University of Illinois has about 20% Chinese? Simple. Economics. The Land Grant System has found that charging FULL TUITION to foreign students instead of doing what it is chartered to do, educate the people of Illinois, pays better. It used to be that EVERY STUDENT IN ILLINOIS was guaranteed a spot at U of Illinois. Not anymore.

We need to restore the land grant system to its mission of educating the people of that state, including both undergraduate and graduate students, and deprecate the education of foreign students.

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May 20, 2011 6:56 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to POed Lib

Yes, education at the land grant schools really does belong to the population they were set up to serve. It's a form of theft to divert that from them. To find out if the school that turned you or someone you care about down is a land grant school, here' s the list: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_land-grant_universities

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May 20, 2011 12:15 PM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says:

As the issue of corporate discrimination rises in the press, the public and in the halls of Congress, it would be interesting to discover what percentage of professional journalists would find your column completely lacking in the professional process of information gathering that seeks fairness, completeness, and accuracy.

Obviously, you leave that up to your readers to provide.  So here goes:

American 4th and 8th graders outperform their German counterparts in the latest round of TIMSS, the prestigious math and science international test. India and China, the two countries where tech companies recruit most from, don't participate in TIMSS.

The LAST thing Americans should be doing is following in the footsteps of India and China.

The FIRST thing we should be doing to is what Americans are good at: busting racially tinged superiority myths that you are promoting and telling our story of ingenuity and innovation in technology.

We've got an overabundance of experienced, highly-skilled Americans who can be put back to work when companies stop recruiting abroad. 

Allow Asians to create their own story of ingenuity and innovation in technology.  No amount of racist fantasies will effect they ability to do so.

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May 20, 2011 12:48 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Donna Conroy, Director

Frankly, judging by your history of commentary on my blog posts, you are hardly in a position to admonish anyone about fairness, completeness, and accuracy. The hypocrisy of that is glaring and extremely distasteful. This is a blog post in which I have expressed my personal views based on my personal experience. Period. I have provided a forum for you and others to express counterviews. Claiming  that this somehow bespeaks a lack of professionalism on my part is arrogant and insulting. It astonishes me that someone in your position is incapable of expressing a viewpoint without sinking to that level.

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May 20, 2011 12:55 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

I have to side with Donna here on the need to bust the myth of Asian superiority. We've been hearing it for years. They work harder. Their families guide them better. Americans only concentrate on sports. Whatever.

The shocking truth is that American STEM (and other) grads are being passed over as sadly and unfairly as experienced American workers are, in their own land. (www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/business/economy/19grads.html?_r=2&;partner=rss&emc=rss) There's no way American can recover from the "Great Recession" so long as this is happening.

Our economy won't be healed until Americans can earn a living in America, and that is not accomplished by importing more of their competitors.  Let's stop mindlessly lionizing foreigners and remember our own kids.

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May 21, 2011 4:09 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

More nonsense from Don.

Let's use some common sense

We have the worse economy since the 1930s and we can apparently if you believe this nonsense "grow our way out of it" by importing even more foreign help.

Sorry Don.

Doesn't work that way.

I don't think Don (along with many others publishing this nonsense) has a clue of how this works.

We don't have a shortage of qualified people.

We might have a shortage of people willing to work for minimum wage after spending over $100K to get an economically worthless degree.

If you really read this "stuff carefully".

It comes down to.

"Americans are too stupid"

Right

Somehow we didn't have this problems in the 1950s and 1960s  when we graduated enough engineers and scientists without bringing in low cost imports.  Of course jobs were more plentiful and paid decent.

Most IT is just labor not deserving of any special consideration.

In the long run, India and China are going to be getting more and more of the work.  That may not be such a bad thing because it should be a "no brainer" that if Americans are not going to be getting the work then it is better for the work to get out of the US.

And that is exactly what is happening.  A bright Indian Institute of Technology graduate doesn't have to come to the US anymore to get a job as he has better opportunities in India.

Of course we should remember that Don also published a "great article" from someone saying that people over 50 should stop whining and get back to work.  Only problem was "Don got busted" when I and others found out that the article was about a person who ended up with a "throw away" job for $10 to $14 an hour.

Every time "Don gets called out".  He runs for cover.

Carry On Don.

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May 21, 2011 4:15 AM walterbyrd walterbyrd  says:

Why is it that the so-called "best and brightest" always come from the world's poorest countries. And, invariably, countries that are not known for any sort of tech innovation? Why is it that those so-called "best and brightest" are breaking their necks to get an "inferior" US education? Why do the major H1B users always argue for even lower standards? According the US GAO, over half of H1Bs are entry level. Could it be that US employers simply prefer indentured servants, instead of free agents who can more easily change jobs?

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May 21, 2011 4:46 AM Joe B Joe B  says: in response to walterbyrd

Don, remember NINA? No Irish Need Apply?

Now it's NANA, No American need Apply, when it comes to IT.

The discrimination against Americans by Indians who have colonized our IT departments is something most anyone who actually does the work (versus writing articles that make no sense) can see.

I hope that Nasscom check is worth you selling out Americans.

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May 21, 2011 5:06 AM Faux Faux  says: in response to Don Tennant

Lookup "Useful idiot", and you will be directed to reference "Don Tennant"

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May 21, 2011 7:21 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Faux

Don can tell all the unemployed American IT workers that we need an Asian influence.

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May 21, 2011 10:21 AM USCitizen USCitizen  says: in response to hoapres

As a member of a relatively affluent community consisting of small to large business owners and Wall Street bigshots, I can personally attest to the fact that low-wages, 24/7 availability and compliant personalities outweigh all other concerns.

NOBODY in my neighborhood would allow their child to go into ANY science but medicine as all other STEM professions result in, at best, a few years of low paid employment followed by a lifetime of serving up coffee and pizza.

I have worked with many of these best and brightest Indians who come here with their worthless Masters Degrees who don't even know how to write a SQL statement that joins two tables, let alone development a full system.

My friends and acquiantances who own small businesses genrally fire these H1-Bs after 6 months or so because nothing gets done.

But these business owners can't resist the $10-$15 / hour pay rates.

They're always hoping they'll be lucky and get someone with a true skill-set.

Hey Don, want talent?

Try Israel.

Try Germany.

Except Israelis and Germans won't accept the sub-standard wages and horrendous hours and working conditions that the Indians accept.

But Don won't stop his shilling as long as he's paid well to sell out his fellow country men and women.

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May 21, 2011 11:23 AM I write code I write code  says:

Don, it's not a game.

If our businesses cared about quality and productivity they would pay for it.  They don't, as STEM wages are down from 1990 (just before H-1B) by 50% to 75%, adjusted for inflation.  I'm not sure there's anything else to say on the subject.

The tiny grain of truth in your screed is that, in a globalized world, game or not we have to compete on both quality and price.  But that assumes that all the players in the game are after the same thing.  Say that a business owner could work some magic so that he made a ton of money for twenty years, and then the entire economy collapsed.  Would anyone follow that road?  Hmm?

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May 22, 2011 1:07 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says: in response to Joe B

You have to wonder where Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are these days.  The presence of African Americans in the Silicon Valley engineering departments are almost ZERO!  Where is Al  Sharpton?  Where is Jesse Jackson?  Have they been bought off?

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May 22, 2011 2:32 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to twins.fan

India and China probably have the "critical mass" of expertise to do the vast majority of IT work and thus don't need to come to the US.

I suspect that the Indians and Chinese coming to the US are those that can't find a job in their own country.  If Don has as much Asia expertise as he claims then he knows that the job market for STEM is better in Asia than in the US. 

The Indians and Chinese coming over to the US for employment are likely to be those that CAN NOT find a job in their own country.

Why would a "best and brightest" Indian or Chinese want to come to the US in the first place with the exception of getting an American education along with perhaps some temporary employment to put US on the resume.

As I said before, it is far more preferable to export jobs to the third world versus having the third world come to the US.  Of course even better would be Americans having the job in their own country but that is not likely to happen.

Another big myth is that the US isn't smart enough.  Right.  That is why the US does extremely well at the "top".  The US places well at the math and physics competitions.  Sorry Don it is not quantity but quality that matters in theoretical physics.

BUT

IT is not theoretical physics were you "grab the genius" from whatever country he resides from.  IT is just labor for the most part.

If companies really need "outside help" then pay more money.  If Microsoft paid an Indian $200K a year because he is a genius versus say paying an American a $100K a year then you might have a case.  If Microsoft through a contract agency pays the Indian under $60K a year then it is hard to argue that the person was needed except for the fact that he was cheap.

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May 22, 2011 2:39 AM Joe B Joe B  says: in response to hoapres

Plenty of them come here to pick up whatever info they can on systems being slated for offshoring - H1B or L1 or even B1 visas have been used for that. Then they 'accompany' the system back to the Bangalore Elephant Graveyard, where good systems go to die.

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May 22, 2011 3:52 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Joe B

Ok, international diversity IS interesting, but I think we'd all enjoy it more along with a steady paycheck, not instead of like it has worked out for us.

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May 22, 2011 3:56 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Joe B

It's called insourcing.  The temporary importation of foreign guest workers to pick up the skills to export the job.  Some of us remember BofA which in 2002 required the Concord, CA as a condition of their severance had to train their Indian replacements along with shipping the jobs to India.  Or as one exec says "Americans and Indians working proudly together to improve corporate profits by exporting jobs"

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May 22, 2011 4:04 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

>> ...steady paycheck

Those days are gone especially in IT.  IT is now among the "lowest of the low" paying close to minimum wage in many cases.  Some are even working for free in equity only startups.  The latest trend is to bum around from one job to another with each job being considered as an "unemployment rebuilder"

>> ...not instead of like it has worked out for us

Sure seems like that Don among others really don't care that American IT workers are displaced by foreign workers.

Reply
May 22, 2011 6:03 AM Joe B Joe B  says: in response to hoapres

As long as Don gets a paycheck he could care less about anyone else

though I doubt he gets paid much for writing garbage like this.

Reply
May 22, 2011 6:37 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Joe B

>> ...he could care less

I suspect that you are right

>> ...paid much...

Probably accurate

Reply
May 22, 2011 7:01 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says:

Wow, Mumbai Don sinks to new lows for his NASSCOM employers:

1/ Whoring out his entire family on a shaky premise of 'Asian ethics'.. whatever that is.

2/ Considering Indians 'Asians' when they have more in common with Afghani Pashtuns than Chinese, Japanese or Koreans. INDIANS ARE NOT ASIANS. Figure it out, Donny Boy.

3/ Oh, and then there's the myth that Chinese and Indian universities & schools are 'superior'.. even Vivek Wadhwa can't make that pile of shit stand.

For being a general whore, I now dub you NASSCOM DON. Evermore. You can double down, try to promulgate this tripe, but no one is buying it.

Or forgetting this. Ever. Oh, and congratulations on besmirching whatever 'service' your sons did to this country by being an agent for a foreign power. Because that's what you are, Donny.Boy.

-Drunken Economist

  mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  twitter.com/drunk_economist

Reply
May 22, 2011 9:05 AM walterbyrd walterbyrd  says: in response to Don Tennant

So typical of a bully mentality, isn't it? Don has whined extensively about the anti-h1b comments not being "civil" enough for his liking. Yet Don's replies are disrespectful and almost goes down to name calling. What in Donna's post is so hypocritical?

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May 22, 2011 9:12 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

Where exactly in Asia did you live Don? Japan? Everyone familiar with mainland Asian cultures especially China and India know that corruption is their main hallmark, not achievement. Can you please name on new industry or invention to come out of Asia recently? Everything they have they got from us.

Since you mentioned Indian academics, I would point out that Asian cheating in US colleges is rampant (Google "Duke Asian cheating scandal"). Many US universities closed their Asian branches last year due to rampant cheating. Avergae Indian IQ is 81 and average American IQ is 98. IIT can't even get accredited. And we need these people to help run our economy?

All one needs to do is look back a mere 13 years when the demographic in It was 98% white American males. Oh, and thr US economy was booming back then.

We're TRAINING these people we are bringing in from Asia. Americans invented IT and we have a comparative advantage at it just like Japanese and Germans do with cars and French do with wine.

The flooding of USA with millions of Asian IT workers over the past 13 years has brought our economy to its knees. We need to put Americans, not Asians back in these jobs. One IT company after another has been harmed by these people. Apple is the last holdout. Oh wait... Apple is booming.

You cannot deny reality much longer Don. Asians have had over a decade to produce and have failed miserably. They had their chance. America can no longer afford to humor and subsidise Asian IT wannabes.

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May 22, 2011 9:20 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to walterbyrd

We're importing most of the peeps from the poorest countres not because they are best and brightest, but because H-1B is really a 3rd world jobs training program designed to cycle millions of 3rd worlders through our economy, train them, and send them home to compete against us. This is International Socialism folks. Americans work hard creating great new industries, the rest of the lazy world gets to walk ina nd take it away for free. Make no mistake, this is communism. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Since Americans are the most able and produtive, and countries like India and China aren't, we're having everything taken away from us and given to those who didn't have to work to create it. And we wonder why the world economy is in trouble? We're rewarding the least productive countries the most.

If we wanted good foreign engineers, we'd be importing millions of Japanese and Germans. Not people who have yet to master indoor plumbing.

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May 22, 2011 9:28 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Don Tennant

Would you argue Don that Zimbabweans make better cars than Japanese or that Eskimos make better NBA players than blacks Don? While there are exceptions to every rule, the fact is, all races have their own specialties that they are good at - for whatever reasons.

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May 22, 2011 9:59 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Drunken Economist

NASSCOM Don must not know that India placed 14th(!) in the 2008 International Math Olympiad. True China placed 1st but USA did place 2nd and 71% of all H-1Bs are Indian. 14th? So much for the idea Americans are bad at math and science!

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May 22, 2011 11:09 AM Joe B Joe B  says: in response to Wakjob

Under the Rug is a good name for the Insecty writings of Don the Shill

Reply
May 22, 2011 11:27 AM Len Len  says:

The problem is that engineering and technology are a bad career choice.  For example, my son recently garnered a perfect score on the mathematics section of the SAT.  As an engineer myself, I had a talk with my son and we decided that medical school is a much better career choice than engineering or technology.  When you combine the OPT/H1b/L1/B1 and offshoring, a degree in the mathematical sciences doesn't pay off.   Even with 10% unemployment, the US government is increasing OPT and outsourcing incentives.  If you want top skill in engineering and tech again, end these corrupt government programs.  Just my 2 cents.

Len

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May 22, 2011 11:42 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Len

Yeah and I told all 4 of mine, that they should definitely get good at computers, but that they should major in something else. They're all working.

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May 22, 2011 12:01 PM USCitizen USCitizen  says:

On the other hand, the Banner Advertisement is paid for by Indian Business Machines, so what possible other position would we expect Don to espouse?

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May 22, 2011 12:38 PM Joe B Joe B  says: in response to USCitizen

Indians have been replacing African Americans as minority status hires for years. Companies would hire African Americans to meet EEO standards but the H1Bs being mostly Indian means their EEO problem is solved. Indians counts as minorities. Two birds with one stone - cheap and minority status

Any crocodile tears for African Americans, Don?

I have no idea how you keep a job you're so lousy at it

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May 23, 2011 3:46 AM hoapres hoapres  says:

I doubt Don spent a single day working in IT.  Of course, IT is a vague term but for sure Don probably never had any significant software engineering experience.

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May 23, 2011 3:49 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> The hypocrisy of that is glaring and extremely distasteful. <<

What is extremely distasteful is your constant misrepresentation of people who disagree with your views.

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May 23, 2011 5:56 AM Wayne M Wayne M  says: in response to hoapres

Mr. Tennant, I must respectfully disagree with your notion that the US workforce needs more foreigners.  There are plenty of highly skilled American workers that are either receiving low pay or are unemployed; why in this sort of economy are we wanting to bring in more foreign workers instead of getting our own back to work?  This isn't about race, it's about US corporations looking to fill their ranks with cheaper workers so their senior management, executives and shareholders can pocket the difference!

These same companies repeatedly claim that they can't find qualified people, yet the tasks they are looking for aren't very complex in the first place.  The real issue, and one that seems to be glossed over, is that these companies often aren't paying an appropriate wage for the work, so it's no wonder that they cannot find "qualified people" - the unspoken part being "willing to work at the wage we are offering".

I live in Tampa, Florida.  I regularly see companies want a varied skillset but offer a laughable compensation package for the work; I have often seen job advertisements looking for skilled software developers but paying below $20/hour, which is nowhere near the median wage for a software developer.  The issue with these companies isn't that they can't find skilled people, it's that they are unwilling to pay adequately and attract skilled people; instead they claim a shortage of qualified people and claim the need to bring in foreign talent, throwing the abundance of qualified US citizens under the bus in the process without a second thought.  Most of these companies not only pay substandard wages to their H1-B employees, but they also treat them as little more than indentured servants.  I realize that there may be some companies that treat H1-B worker fairly, but even then the issue is that there isn't a NEED for the visa workers; there are already many qualified US citizens willing to work, but NOT for a fraction of what the job pays.  How would you, Mr. Tennant, react if you applied for a job as a journalist (or whatever title you wish to use for your career), which you know should pay you let's say $80,000 a year, and the company offers you $35,000.  Would you not feel insulted, or at the very least that the company isn't offering adequate compensation?  What if that company, after going through several individuals who turned down offers of employment due to low wages, said "We cannot find skilled journalists.  We must apply for Visas for workers" because they know the workers on a Visa will accept $35,000 a year salary to work?  I'm sorry, but that doesn't sit right with me, and that's pretty much how this charade of "IT companies need skilled foreigners" tends to go.  The only "skill" many of these visa holders have, when compared to the average US talent, is the skill of having little or no responsibility (at least not on the same level as the average US citizen who might have a spouse, children, and have friends and wish to engage in social activities after work) and, therefore, the ability to work for less pay.

You can talk about "staying competitive in a global environment" all you want, but in the current economy's state of affairs these companies are doing a disservice to everyone except their already-rich shareholders by claiming a worker shortage instead of offering better compensation packages to attract qualified US workers.  With the current unemployment rate, we do not need more foreigners, even highly skilled ones (which, as others have pointed out, is often NOT the case with the H1-B visa anyway); what we need is to put AMERICANS back to work to help stimulate our economy and get AMERICA back on it's feet - we need to be focused on the average American, not a corporation that only cares about it's bottom line and how best to line the pockets of its principals at any cost.

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May 23, 2011 5:57 AM Wayne M Wayne M  says: in response to hoapres

Mr.Tennant, I must respectfully disagree with your notion that the US workforce needs more foreigners. There are plenty of highly skilled American workers that are either receiving low pay or are unemployed;why in this sort of economy are we wanting to bring in more foreign workers instead of getting our own back to work? This isn't about race, it's about US corporations looking to fill their ranks with cheaper workers so their senior management, executives and shareholders can pocket the difference!

These same companies repeatedly claim that they can't find qualified people, yet the tasks they are looking for aren't very complex in the first place. The real issue, and one that seems to be glossed over, is that these companies often aren't paying an appropriate wage for the work, so it's no wonder that they cannot find "qualified people" - the unspoken part being "willing to work at the wage we are offering".

I live in Tampa, Florida. I regularly see companies want a varied skillset but offer a laughable compensation package for the work;I have often seen job advertisements looking for skilled software developers but paying below $20/hour, which is nowhere near the median wage for a software developer. The issue with these companies isn't that they can't find skilled people, it's that they are unwilling to pay adequately and attract skilled people;instead they claim a shortage of qualified people and claim the need to bring in foreign talent, throwing the abundance of qualified US citizens under the bus in the process without a second thought. Most of these companies not only pay substandard wages to their H1-B employees, but they also treat them as little more than indentured servants. I realize that there may be some companies that treat H1-B worker fairly, but even then the issue is that there isn't a NEED for the visa workers;there are already many qualified US citizens willing to work, but NOT for a fraction of what the job pays. How would you, Mr.Tennant, react if you applied for a job as a journalist (or whatever title you wish to use for your career), which you know should pay you let's say $80,000 a year, and the company offers you $35,000. Would you not feel insulted, or at the very least that the company isn't offering adequate compensation? What if that company, after going through several individuals who turned down offers of employment due to low wages, said "We cannot find skilled journalists. We must apply for Visas for workers" because they know the workers on a Visa will accept $35,000 a year salary to work? I'm sorry, but that doesn't sit right with me, and that's pretty much how this charade of "IT companies need skilled foreigners" tends to go. The only "skill" many of these visa holders have, when compared to the average US talent, is the skill of having little or no responsibility (at least not on the same level as the average US citizen who might have a spouse, children, and have friends and wish to engage in social activities after work) and, therefore, the ability to work for less pay.

You can talk about "staying competitive in a global environment" all you want, but in the current economy's state of affairs these companies are doing a disservice to everyone except their already-rich shareholders by claiming a worker shortage instead of offering better compensation packages to attract qualified US workers.  Reply

May 23, 2011 5:57 AM Wayne M Wayne M  says: in response to hoapres
With the current unemployment rate, we do not need more foreigners, even highly skilled ones (which, as others have pointed out, is often NOT the case with the H1-B visa anyway);what we need is to put AMERICANS back to work to help stimulate our economy and get AMERICA back on it's feet - we need to be focused on the average American, not a corporation that only cares about it's bottom line and how best to line the pockets of its principals at any cost.

Reply
May 23, 2011 6:02 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Wayne M

The only shortage is people willing to work for free in the "booming high tech field".  IT is not like theoretical physics with "Either you are a genius or not" but just labor for the most part.  You can find someone easily enough by offering to pay MORE money than your competition. 

The system is set up so you won't have a labor shortage.  Companies can keep bringing in more and more cheap foreign labor. 

This applies to all labor.  Those that want illegal immigrants (e.g. undocumented Americans) to pick food complain about labor shortages.  Start paying farm workers $500 a day and you won't have a shortage of farm workers.

What is happening with regards to IT is that America (believe it or not!) is no longer very attractive to Indian or Chinese immigrants who can find better job opportunities in their own country. 

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May 23, 2011 6:29 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Wayne M

Thank you for your eloquent post. I respect your viewpoint and sincerely appreciate your excellent contribution to the discussion.

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May 23, 2011 7:22 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> Thank you for your eloquent post. <<

Wayne did a good job.

I suspect that you knew along that this is all about cheap labor.

>> I respect your viewpoint <<

I doubt it.

>> and sincerely appreciate your excellent contribution to the discussion. <<

Doubt that too.

You have been called out on cheap labor before without responding.  As pointed out previously you posted "Over 50 Stop Whining and get back to work".

You never did respond to the query being "Is a $10 to $14 an hour job a success?"

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May 24, 2011 3:23 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to walterbyrd

>> So typical of a bully mentality, isn't it?  <<

Yes

>> Don has whined extensively about the anti-h1b comments not being "civil" enough for his liking. <<

If you disagree with Don then something is wrong with you.  Or so it appears.

>> Yet Don's replies are disrespectful and almost goes down to name calling. <<

Agreed.

>> What in Donna's post is so hypocritical? <<

Nothing as far as I can see.  Of course in Don's view it must be hypocritical because he says it.

Not picking on just Don but this is classic lazy journalism.  You can pretty much figure out who is telling the truth when they start backing it up with hard cold facts instead of just waiving their hands.

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May 24, 2011 4:35 AM Mary Jane Mary Jane  says: in response to hoapres

Don is a typical Lawyer who has been Bribed by Infosys to speak in favour of Infosys for few hundered thousand dollars .

If you notice in his past blogs he was pro America and suddenly he has become pro Asia , what has caused this change of faith ?? The reason is huge bribing by Infosys officials to Don .

American public should unite against the Infosys and Indian Cheats .

Reply
May 25, 2011 10:31 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to Mary Jane

My wife and I are both around 30. I am on an H-1B and my wife is on an EAD (a working authorization until we get our greencard which has been pending 7 years). We cumulatively make 250k and have 2 graduate degrees and 1 professional degree between us.

As Asians, I will attest that we are very motivated.  I have spent all but 2 of my last 26 years in school. My parents were middle-class Indians (which would be well below the poverty line in the US). They blew every single penny on making sure I got the best education. I went to an IIT, which as someone points above is not accredited. I do know that it was a very challenging experience and I don't think I have seen such an assemblage of intelligence elsewhere.

I cannot talk about non-Indian Asian cultures, but I think we do one thing well and another thing badly. What we do well is enforce thoroughness is learning. That is particularly good for building block subjects such as anything science or math based. We are particularly bad at promoting creative learning. That is particularly useful for entrepreneurship and a whole lot of artistic disciplines.

So an Asian approach to education and career will likely improve the probability of making it to "successful", but will diminish the probability of making it to "killer success" or "interesting".

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May 27, 2011 4:35 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to R. Lawson

>> H-1b was supposed to be used

No

The original intent was to bring in foreign labor to keep costs down.

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May 27, 2011 11:58 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Indian_H1B

"We cumulatively make 250k and have 2 graduate degrees and 1 professional degree between us."

Congrats.  You fit the profile of how I believe the H-1b was suppose to be used.  Unfortunately you aren't representative of the majority of H-1b holders and are in an elite minority.

"...until we get our greencard which has been pending 7 years"

And your experience is typical - representing one major flaw with the H-1b program.  It wasn't designed with permanent immigration in mind and unfortunately those who want to make the USA their new home for good must frequently go through a very long and risky process.  It's a very cruel program - one that has corporations in mind.  Not families and certainly not workers.  It's not the first experience we should desire for our future American citizens.

Best of luck.  I hope you can settle down and plant roots here soon.

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May 30, 2011 2:20 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Don Tennant

First and foremost, we need to be able have a roof over our heads and put food on our tables to take care of our families. Once we are able to accomplish that, we can look at learning about other cultures.

There is not a day that goes by that I see people holding up signs that say "unemployed", "homeless","need food" etc at traffic signs. Pan handling happens in third world countries. I can see the US is heading that way rather rapidly. Time to stop both illegal and legal immigration until we have our affairs in order.

There is too much outflow of money in terms of immigrants buying and building real estate in their home countries thus contributing to their home country economies.  Also, it is very easy for individuals, especially in the high tech sector, to funnel money to an overseas makeshift business office in their home countries and avoid paying taxes here. It is child's play to launder money in third world countries.

Reply
May 30, 2011 2:57 AM Hireamerican Hireamerican  says: in response to POed Lib
May 30, 2011 3:04 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to walterbyrd

You hit the nail on the head!!!

Reply
May 30, 2011 3:27 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Graduates from the IITs of India definitely fit the profile of "the best and brightest" that the US can benefit from.

But most H1bs are graduates of Indian Corporate colleges that cost less than $4000 for a four year technical degree. They are definitely not bringing any value to the US.

Reply
Jul 5, 2011 2:58 AM Crema DaCrop Crema DaCrop  says:

It seems to me that we are linking two things that are both important, yet have different, if parallel, possible solutions.

Problem 1: immigration policy.

Giant political football (the English kind) as we kick each other around to try to solve the problem.

Here's my take:

Let's look at this as immigration policy, not corporate or economic policy. The truth is, we expel many highly-talented folks after they graduate our top schools with honors, while we are discussing amnesty for landscapers and carpenters. All of these professions are just that - professions. We need to look at them all in the same light. No intended insult to the rightfully-PO'd native american population, but we have essentially been a society of immigrants for over 200 years (closer to 400, actually). We need to accept this, and engineer our policy to match it. We were only able to climb out of the great depression and win WWII because of our (albeit slow) climb from a bunch of squabbling groups into one society, working together to attack the problem domains at hand. If we can't do that now, making room for those best and brightest from anywhere who are willing to stay and help us make a go of it, we are doomed and no manner of education nor internecine one-upmanship will help us. Fix immigration policy, make it just and equitable, and do what we should always do (encourage the best to stay here).

Problem 2: STEM (and general education):

People want to chase money and prestige. In an age where you can be a wealthy celebrity just from showing up on reality TV, how do you get people interested in STEM?

As long as profit is the primary motive driving business (big surprise), and as long as labor is seen as one of the highest costs in business, there will be a consistant effort to drive the labor CoB down across the industry. This is essentially orthogonal to the immigration issue (above), and our societal views, but there is a definite intersection set between them.

My take: corporate taxes are seen as a sometimes-necessary evil by much of the US CofC and the interational corporate community. Most often, these taxes go into the general fund and are (at least figuratively-speaking) never heard from again, as far as corporate America is concerned.

Fine - so do this. Either a) earmark a certain percentage of corporate taxes to go towards STEM education (and by that, I mean K-Post-secondary - the whole frickin' enchilada). If a corporation doing business in the US has the gumption to go it on its own, fine - cut that portion of their tax burden and let them fund said STEM programs unilaterally. As long as some standards are set for outcomes, this should be relatively inexpensive to do and will result in greater numbers of kids getting hooked on STEM programs from an early age. Hey, it worked for me - it can work for others.

and/or: b) Encourage hiring at wages commensurate with education level (how come physicians and attorneys make so much? - because there's both legal and professional community support for the regulation of their respective industries). Through tax breaks and closing of loopholes (e.g., don't reward offshoring), make it much more lucrative and beneficial for corporations to get the best and brightest right here in North America. Fund colleges' and universities' programs in STEM. It costs money, but in the long run, will boost domestic corporate revenue and governmental tax bases.

No one wants to talk about this stuff. As an older-fart, I can say that I've watched with dismay the general malaise that has infected American engineering.

But if w can just see these things as two different yet intersecting problems, and confront the issues head-on, we can fix this.

Reply
Jul 5, 2011 2:59 AM Crema DaCrop Crema DaCrop  says:

It seems to me that we are linking two things that are both important, yet have different, if parallel, possible solutions.

Problem 1:immigration policy.

Giant political football (the English kind) as we kick each other around to try to solve the problem.

Here's my take:

Let's look at this as immigration policy, not corporate or economic policy.The truth is, we expel many highly-talented folks after they graduate our top schools with honors, while we are discussing amnesty for landscapers and carpenters.All of these professions are just that - professions.We need to look at them all in the same light.No intended insult to the rightfully-PO'd native american population, but we have essentially been a society of immigrants for over 200 years (closer to 400, actually).We need to accept this, and engineer our policy to match it.We were only able to climb out of the great depression and win WWII because of our (albeit slow) climb from a bunch of squabbling groups into one society, working together to attack the problem domains at hand.If we can't do that now, making room for those best and brightest from anywhere who are willing to stay and help us make a go of it, we are doomed and no manner of education nor internecine one-upmanship will help us.Fix immigration policy, make it just and equitable, and do what we should always do (encourage the best to stay here).

Problem 2:STEM (and general education):

People want to chase money and prestige.In an age where you can be a wealthy celebrity just from showing up on reality TV, how do you get people interested in STEM?

As long as profit is the primary motive driving business (big surprise), and as long as labor is seen as one of the highest costs in business, there will be a consistant effort to drive the labor CoB down across the industry.This is essentially orthogonal to the immigration issue (above), and our societal views, but there is a definite intersection set between them.

My take:corporate taxes are seen as a sometimes-necessary evil by much of the US CofC and the interational corporate community.Most often, these taxes go into the general fund and are (at least figuratively-speaking) never heard from again, as far as corporate America is concerned.

Fine - so do this.Either a) earmark a certain percentage of corporate taxes to go towards STEM education (and by that, I mean K-Post-secondary - the whole frickin' enchilada).If a corporation doing business in the US has the gumption to go it on its own, fine - cut that portion of their tax burden and let them fund said STEM programs unilaterally.As long as some standards are set for outcomes, this should be relatively inexpensive to do and will result in greater numbers of kids getting hooked on STEM programs from an early age.Hey, it worked for me - it can work for others.

and/or:b) Encourage hiring at wages commensurate with education level (how come physicians and attorneys make so much?- because there's both legal and professional community support for the regulation of their respective industries).Through tax breaks and closing of loopholes (e.g., don't reward offshoring), make it much more lucrative and beneficial for corporations to get the best and brightest right here in North America.Fund colleges' and universities' programs in STEM.It costs money, but in the long run, will boost domestic corporate revenue and governmental tax bases.

No one wants to talk about this stuff. Reply

Jul 5, 2011 2:59 AM Crema DaCrop Crema DaCrop  says:
As an older-fart, I can say that I've watched with dismay the general malaise that has infected American engineering.

But if w can just see these things as two different yet intersecting problems, and confront the issues head-on, we can fix this.

Reply
Jul 5, 2011 4:52 AM Wolverine Wolverine  says: in response to Hireamerican

hireamerican,

You seem to know a lot about India and Indians ... either you are a 'frusto' Indian or you are a Pakistani. Which one is it?

Reply
Jul 5, 2011 4:57 AM Wolverine Wolverine  says: in response to Drunken Economist

Drunken Economist,

You were perhaps drunk (as your alias indicates) when you wrote this statement:

'Considering Indians 'Asians' when they have more in common with Afghani Pashtuns than Chinese, Japanese or Koreans. INDIANS ARE NOT ASIANS. Figure it out, Donny Boy'.

Indian civilization is many many centuries old; almost as old as Chinese, Greek, Egyptian, etc. Afghanis invaded India and occupied India and spread Islam. That doesn't make every Indian an Afghani by ethicity. And last I checked, India belongs in the Asian continent, making all Indians Asians.

Get your facts right!

Reply

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