Why the Anti-H-1B Argument Isn't Being Taken Seriously

Don Tennant

The NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams last Thursday night aired a piece by Tom Brokaw about our inability to keep the best and brightest foreign students and guest workers here because of visa restrictions, which are resulting in a reverse brain drain. It focused on the H-1B visa issue, and it provided a great example of why H-1B opponents are so frustrated.

 

The piece spotlighted entrepreneurs from India who were educated here, and argued that we're letting valuable, job-creating talent slip through our fingers by sending them packing once their H-1B visas expire. The problem is that it only presented one side of the story.

 

If you're a long-time reader of this blog and you're inclined to jump on that last line and scream that I'm being hypocritical, save your breath and your keystrokes, and pop that vein back into your forehead. News stories and blog posts are different animals. I've made it very clear in this blog that I have a global frame of reference, and that I feel strongly about the promotion of endeavors that unify rather than divide people from different countries. I'm not a huge fan of the H-1B visa program as it currently exists, but to the extent that it helps bring people from different countries and cultures together, I'm all for it. That's where my head is, so my blog is naturally a reflection of that. I've written about the intolerable abuse of the H-1B program and the critical need to end that abuse. But I want a mechanism in place that enables U.S. and foreign IT professionals to work together and to share their experience, expertise and ideas. The H-1B program isn't ideal, but it's better than nothing.

 

Let me be equally clear that I agree with the thrust of Brokaw's piece. I believe it's in America's best interest to welcome bright, hard-working people from other countries, and to remove barriers that prevent them from living and working here. But I strongly disagree with the biased way in which this news story was presented. For example, Brokaw interviewed Vivek Wadhwa, a visiting professor at the University of California, Berkeley, who is a well-known and outspoken supporter of the H-1B program. But no opportunity was given for anyone to express an opposing viewpoint, one that might recount some of the problems with the program and why they need to be fixed. Why didn't Brokaw bother to interview, say, Dr. Norm Matloff, the highly respected professor at the University of California, Davis, who has written and spoken extensively and eloquently in opposition to the H-1B?

 

This is where it gets complicated. Brokaw and NBC deserve the lion's share of the blame for presenting a one-sided story, but not all of it. Part of the blame falls squarely in the collective lap of the radical, hateful, anti-H-1B fringe element, whose venomous voice blares so loudly that the reasoned voices of people like Matloff are drowned out. The mainstream media can be at least partially forgiven for presuming that since the most vociferous people conveying the anti-H-1B message convey it in a way that casts them as almost embarrassingly ignorant, there must not be an intelligent anti-H-1B argument to be made.


 

Am I overstating the case? Consider my recent post, "Can the H-1B Issue Be Discussed in a Civil Manner in an Open Forum?" In that post, I presented the key points of an H-1B-related development that had been in the news that week, and I challenged readers to discuss it without denigrating anyone, without making unsubstantiated accusations against anyone, without belittling any culture or nationality, and without using a snide or mean-spirited tone to express their views. Go to the post and scroll down through the reader comments. The combativeness and incivility were punctuated by the requisite hatefulness that we see in virtually every discussion of any H-1B-related matter. It's like clockwork.

 

These people will continue to succeed in dominating online discussion forums, simply because people with other viewpoints are unwilling to be subjected to the vitriol that's invariably spewed at them if they dare speak their minds or try to inject a call for reasoned debate into the discussion. But it's a hopelessly shortsighted, futile plan of attack. The anti-H-1B argument isn't being taken seriously because way too many of the people making it are so over the top with their hateful slurs, baseless accusations and personal attacks that they simply can't be taken seriously. The cluelessness of it all is as stunning as the hatefulness is self-defeating.



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Mar 7, 2011 6:39 AM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says:

The holographic political instability caused by Free-Trade and Federalization.

The European Union's troubles with small states is an important lesson in the (political) instability caused by Free Trade.  In the past countries like Greece and Portugal would have just done what the U.S. did, print money in order to increase liquidity of assets.

But, these countries were blocked by their European Union agreements.  So basically, the people in these countries had to compete with countires that have it together with massive economic strength? 

But can a person in Greece or Portugal seek regular work in the Germany?  I would be interested to know if they can.

So basically the EU bailed the countries out for a time, we'll see if it really helps them in the long-run. 

I think a much more realistic scenario is that people from Greece and Portugal or any other country unable to compete as successfully as Germany will have to move to Germany in order to find work.

Pre-EU, Greece and Portugal would have raised tariffs, they might have printed money, in addition to seeking loans and investment.  These countries have basically been persuaded to chop-off 2 of their 4 limbs on a false promise that free-trade works.

Free-Trade is false ideology.  Not only does it not work (unless there is a true complementary relationship), there isn't a country on this earth that actually practices it.  Germany restricts migration right and left, even from EU.

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Mar 7, 2011 7:34 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Jake_Leone

Jake: Europe and the UK have TUPE laws: Transfer of Undertaking, Protection of Employment. In America, it's perfectly legal to put workers out by the curb on trash day.

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Mar 7, 2011 8:09 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Dolores

Thanks Dolores, that's a nice (for the employee) law they have.  And underscores that "Free-Trade" is a mythological state of being, that bears no actual representation in the real world.

Before negotiation can actually begin, we need to all be talking about real tangible goals.  Often conservative/liberal groups will try to couch the argument in something that doesn't actually exist, thereby initiating the polarization.

This is as true for aweful bigotry that is perpetrated against U.S. workers, as is it for the myth of Free Trade.

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Mar 7, 2011 9:18 AM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says:

Free-Trade only works in a complementary situation. 

In other situation, it can be hirely destructive, because resources (such as human beings) are not elastic, and are not disposable.

On this I would like to point out areas in which India could be a complementary trade partner.

Let's say instead of copying us, and creating cheap work clones, Indian invested in R&D at the University level, to create new industries that could be valuable to the United States.

For example:

- Growing new human Organs (China does this by using condemned, sick but true).

- Growing unique plants (both genetically modified and through breeding).  India has a long history of this, and it can be a great wealth producer.

- Expanding their University System and opening it up to foreign students.  This would be a great employer in India, and would get many people up to basic college level, at a reduced cost to many Western colleges.

This going head-to-head, and massively over-using our Visa system to basically remove jobs from United States, is a sick way to do business.  And is not benefitting the United States. 

Just copying our industries will always lead to protectionism, indeed protectionism must occur, because U.S. workers cannot compete against low-consumption economies.  Our way-of-life requires consumption.  We don't ride buses to work, like they do in India, and we cannot and should not accept that as our future because it is reduction in our standard of living.

Creativity, Complementation, Looking for ways to benefit the countries that are allowing you to engage in Free-Trade will lead to a happy relationship between the countries, one that is politically stable.

The Free-Trade-Myth talkers have had their day, and they failed miserably, the economy was on the verge of a Great Depression, and it was liberal Keynsian Economics that prevented the worst recession since the the Great Depression from becoming the Great Depression.

Do-nothing George Bush, had his head the Iraq (doing his father business), but because he believed that letting business just go, without keeping a check on things, he almost put us all in Hoover-Villes.

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Mar 7, 2011 9:26 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Jake_Leone

I actually had to explain to an Indian why most Americans needed to consume energy to heat their homes for part of the year. I have had to explain to them how all the things they love about living in America: reliable utilities, excellent public services, and the cleanliness everywhere (to name but a few) were funded, and that our big American paychecks were not just spending money for greedy American workers, but rather the lifeblood that sustained an economic ecology where an ordinary person could have a safe and decent life.

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Mar 7, 2011 11:15 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

The extreme comments on either side of the fence aren't helpful. 

That said, I suspect that even if all those who are anti-H-1b were on their best behavior the mainstream media would still ignore our views.

There are many moderate voices opposed to the H-1b visa.  That would include Senators from both parties, many members of Congress, Ron Hira, Mattloff as you've already mentioned.  The IEEE-USA has written position statements opposed.  I personally believe that the Programmers Guild has been rather tempered also - even if you don't there are many respectable voices opposed to the H-1b visa.  Greenspan, although supportive of the H-1b visa - called it a subsidy. 

Even Vivek Whadwa, who the story quotes, is opposed to many aspects of the H-1b visa yet there is nary a mention of that.

And MSNBC ignores them all. 

Your reasons for supporting the H-1b visa seem to lack substance.  If I get your position correctly, we should support it siimply to achieve the goal of getting foreign people and American people in the same room together.  Is that more important than the economic consequences?  How about we just be friends on FaceBook and swap recipes?  It's not that I have a personal grudge against foreign people (I married one) just that I find putting food on the table outweighs the kumbaya moment that you seek.

Anyways, I don't think most people from India really want to join in on the love-fest either.  I think their goals are the same as ours - making a living.

The difference between China, India, and the USA are simple.  The USA feels the need to apologize for being aggressive in business and protecting our own interests.  India and China are loving that - and they aren't apologizing about the huge trade surplus they have with us.

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Mar 8, 2011 1:39 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says:

So (Mumbai, not the other) Don, seeing as you're the latest 'media personality' to regurgitate content on this NBC/GE PR package, just out of curiosity, are you any part of this?

http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-is-dhs-lobbying-against-uscis.html

Once a spook always a spook?

-Drunken Economist

  http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

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Mar 8, 2011 2:12 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Don

No, but since you asked, I was doing some work under hazardous conditions to help keep you and your family safe. No need to say thanks. It was a pleasure and an honor. I would only ask for one thing. If you ever run in to a serviceman or former serviceman whose views you disagree with, please don't insult him. Thank him.

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Mar 8, 2011 2:15 AM Paul D. Bain Paul D. Bain  says:

Don Tennant, when the 40 million unemployed Americans finally wake up and realize that they will never again be able to afford to buy food, fuel, or clothing, they will do that which they should have done years ago: overthrow the federal government of the USA. Then, they shall round up all you Republican traitors who maximized your corporate profits by giving our jobs to the freaking immigrants. These unemployed, starving, American patriots shall give you traitors your long-overdue comeuppance: (EDITED FOR THREATENING LANGUAGE).  Enjoy your days in power, Republican traitors. (EDITED FOR THREATENING LANGUAGE.) Those days ain't gonna last much longer.-- Paul D. Bainpaulbain@pobox.com

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Mar 8, 2011 2:31 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

And I am the mother, niece, and daughter (both parents) of war veterans. Now, back to the topic: I want an America where veterans returning to civilian life can find good jobs. That won't happen if all the jobs are either flooded with young "Immigrants" or offshored.

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Mar 8, 2011 2:36 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Paul D. Bain

I don't mean to spoil the insurrection party, but wouldn't it be a whole lot easier just to tone down the maniacal stuff a tad? If you're unemployed, do you think it might possibly have something to do with the fact that employers aren't particularly keen to hire people who want to round other people up and subject them to violent death? I'm thinking immigrants probably aren't the problem in your case. I'm just sayin'...

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Mar 8, 2011 3:06 AM Doc Savage Doc Savage  says:

Well Don - You speak of yourself as a globalist, but you rarely cite historical precedence as to how this idea of replacing ... uh ... augmenting the American workforce with cheaper ... uh ... intelligent talented non-immigrant labor is a good idea. On rare occasions, you and pro-H-1B visa pundits talk about how a limited number of entrepreneurial success stories come from immigrant efforts, but I have to point out that most of these were educated from an early age here in the United States and they are thoroughly Americanized; indeed they are not an example of the less than capable H-1B visa workers being used to systematically replace the American IT workforce of 30+ year olds.

The USA politicians, bought and paid for by the Indian corporate moguls, continue to preach the benefits of the H-1B program based upon this falsification of facts and continue to be supported by pundits, such as yourself, who are also paid to be "YES MEN".

I am sure back in post civil war America, when the European and Caribbean immigrants were being used to replace the newly freed slaves, as America's primary agricultural workforce, someone was out there talking it up as being the best way to get America back on track to be the most successful Industrialized nation. But Frederick Douglas brought to the attention of the nation through his writings about the issue, that it was harmful to the worker. He referred to this labor type as "Coolie Labor" and compared it to "Slave Labor" in it's value and moral corruption.

Don - If you are truly a globalist, then your focus should be for the manifestation of equality for all workers in the world through FAIR TRADE, not free trade, Equal pay for equal work should be your mantra, not the chant of "MORE NON-IMMIGRANT LABOR".

If you can't see this then you are as blind as the Indian Agent of the 19th century that believed taking the Native American from his ancestral home and civilize him would mean sustaining their people for generations to come.

We all know how that turned out.

As for the fiery rhetoric of people over this issue, well Don, if the government were to come into your home and replace your wonderful wife with a sow and your kids with mindless zombie piglets, would you consider that fair trade, being that it would be cheaper to have pets than family? Would you not fight against such a fascist idea? Would you not have ripe vernacular for those forcing you to accept such a ridiculous exchange?

Now you can see why people like myself would rather see you and those other pundits of the labor replacement cult hung by your thumbs and see the livestock you are forcing onto us turned into sausages.

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Mar 8, 2011 3:10 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Don Tennant

I have had the good fortune to work globally for the largest tech firms in the world. While working with a diverse workforce has been a joy, i strongly disagree with your perspective that the h-1b program is a good thing for any nationality...There is a big difference between expatriates and indentured  servants.It is a fact that hundreds of thousands of intelligent qualified hardworking Americans have lost their jobs their homes their healthcare and sadly lives due to h-1b corporate greed and political corruption. Why isn't the media covering this corruption?  Simple it does not sell ad space to greedy corporate sponsors. Ask Tom Brokaw.

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Mar 8, 2011 3:13 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to Paul D. Bain

Aw, Don thinks he's a hero. No, THIS guy is a hero:

http://www.truthistreason.net/former-cia-analyst-ray-mcgovern-arrested-and-beaten-at-hillary-clintons-lecture-about-free-speech

What Ray McGovern did to Hillary Foggypants is what ALL OF US should do to Don.

This is not a Red or Blue thing. This is a demographic war on our own young, exacerbated by the Boomsters. And Don should be held accountable like everyone else... and personally I'll take the McGovern option.

-Drunken Economist

  http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

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Mar 8, 2011 3:26 AM Doc Savage Doc Savage  says: in response to Doc Savage

And to prove my point about the lack of ability of the Hindi or Chinese IT worker being anything but that, I point you to such sights as CodeProject.com, stackoverflow.com, etc. as good examples. There you will find any number of questions poised by people from India who claim to be IT professionals with extensive experience, who can not resolve a simple issue of logic flow and request that an article writer please expand upon his whitepaper by providing code so they do not have to write it themselves. Are these the best and brightest?

You will also find articles written by people with Master Degree's from colleges in India or China and a better part of these articles are reposts of tutorials from Microsoft's own website. They don't even bother to change the variable names.

Plagiarism runs rampant in both countries and we are suppose to take their post secondary educational system seriously? Hardly. Some of these jokers have even gone back to old Dr. Dobb's Journal articles and copied them and posted it as an original pieces of work.

Are you now beginning to understand why the fiery rhetoric? Why the seemingly racist fervor? It is a class and culture war as well as an economic one. We in America are taught fair play wins all, when in fact we are being assaulted by a famished horde willing to even feed on their own in order to escape the land of their birth.

It is ludicrous to preach that we Americans should continue to behave fairly and rationally when other countries refuse to and our government representatives sell us out to the highest corporate bidder.

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Mar 8, 2011 3:29 AM Doc Sasvage Doc Sasvage  says: in response to Drunken Economist

Exactly ... sorry Don, we will not go quietly into the night. We will stand there quietly hoping to get your attention and should you choose to use violence in order to shut us down, we will exact an eye for and eye.

(Sorry Pappa G)

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Mar 8, 2011 3:48 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

The H-1Bs are not here to share knowledge and ideas. They are not here to help feed and clothe us. Quite the opposite.

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Mar 8, 2011 5:25 AM Warior(one leg warrior) Warior(one leg warrior)  says:

So funny to read Don's stupidity replies...

6 years ago my cousin said something at my house similar to what Don said, H-1B visa workers are to poor to feed themselves, so why don't we help them out by giving them jobs. I told my cousin why don't you give your job away instead of mine. Boom ! one year later he lost his job to one of the import cheap H-1B worker. He stays home for three years in the roll without find a new job. I met him again I ask him "How is your stance on those import workers", he told me "f*ck them all".

Don  why don't you take care yourself your people first before you take care other people around the world. Your people is not even good enough to survive this economy why would you worry for the the rest of the world. How do you feel without job for 3 years ??

I told you over and over if companies use H-1B bringing talents to help build American a better country I would support 100%, but companies use H-1B to import cheap workers and displace American workers, that is the reason I alway go against it. The reason I got pissed off and throw garbage at you because your IQ level is less than my dog at my house. At least I told my dog he understands but not you ..

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Mar 8, 2011 6:14 AM Jobs4us Jobs4us  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don on behalf of millions of fellow laid off Americans who have lost our jobs through no fault of our own you owe us at minimum a sincere apology. Your elite holier than thou put down of Americans who have lost our jobs is misinformed, biased, severely unfair and uncalled for.Perhaps you have experienced the good fortune to avoid a layoff and being replaced by multiple h-1b and l-1 visa holders -- for now.  Rather than provoke anger why not take advantage of your media role to research and tell the true story of what is really going on.  I think you will be pleasantly surprised and shocked to see how many highly qualified, hard working, and talented American families have been devastated by these corrupt visa programs that only benefit greedy billionaires.  Do your own family a favor, get the facts straight...they too may get caught in the h-1b trap.  if treated with the proper dignity and respect we have earned, it is not hard to find people to interview, just ask us.... .  

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Mar 8, 2011 6:22 AM Jobs4us Jobs4us  says:

The real issue is that Americans speaking out against corporate visa fraud and human trafficking won't sell ad dollars.  The media advertisers are the same companies as the largest H-1b offenders.

We hear far too much coverage about Charlie Sheen and Lady Gaga....If only I had a potato chip shaped like the Virgin Mary..that way someone in the media might pay attention.

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Mar 8, 2011 7:50 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Of course they're not here to help feed and clothe us, Dolores. They're here to help feed and clothe their families. You're looking at the immediate impact of the growing pains of an economy that's going irreverstibly global. I'm looking at the long-term impact of the baby steps of an economy that's going irreversibly global. It's simply a matter of two different philosophies. You're most concerned about feeding and clothing people in this country. I'm most concerned about feeding and clothing people regardless of what country they happen to have been born in. I recognize that there are people who absolutely detest that way of thinking. So be it. This is all about people expressing differing viewpoints in an open forum. I continue to value and respect yours.

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Mar 8, 2011 8:48 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

What you fail to understand is that these "growing pains" will be fatal to the American middle class and to many smart, competent American workers and the families who depend upon them. Do the math. How many of our middle class jobs will it take to satisfy third world populations? And will we have a middle class when they're done? Do you think they will be as open-minded towards us and our workers as we have been to them? Are they as hospitable to us now? Have we let in a team of helpers, or a pack of wolves? What are their intentions towards people like you and me?

For our survival, I believe America has to step back from globalism and develope (or re-develop) more self-sufficiency. Open doors for the sake of open doors may give greater access to friends, but it also lets in burglars.

And, they are not that great as workers - those of us who've served side-by-side with them know that. We have let many great American workers go in order to make room for mere wannabes, who now feel like they're on top of the world and looking down on us. Their juniors are conducting job interviews - and screening our seniors and experts out. They violate American labor law right and left. If you thought Americans had prejudices about race, age, and gender, you need to get to know our global friends better. Their assumptions about us will blow you away.

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Mar 8, 2011 8:58 AM Houstonreader Houstonreader  says: in response to Don Tennant

Irreverstibly?

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Mar 8, 2011 9:01 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Dolores

Or, to put it another way: every displaced American worker represents a home, many a family, an education, a citizenship in a community that involved participation and tax contributions, and a way of life. Those things aren't Don's to give away: your life doesn't belong to him. Ditto for our government, who (according to the USAid scandal) has been trading away our livelihoods as part of an international influence game for decades. And they don't belong to our corporate leaders or our Congresspeople to trade away like swag at a convention either. But the catch is that the rightful owners of these things have to stand up and defend them. As long as we remain silent, the great American jobs giveaway will continue. What's to stop it if we don't speak up and fight back?

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Mar 8, 2011 9:12 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

I would submit to you that I know our global friends pretty well, having lived outside of this country for a third of my life, having traveled extensively in Asia, and having many friends from many countries, including India and China.

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Mar 8, 2011 9:17 AM boernereader boernereader  says: in response to Don Tennant

Irreverstibly?

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Mar 8, 2011 9:55 AM P Henry P Henry  says:

   There is nothing in this world more pathetic and sad than a traitor trying to justify hisher actions.  Tennant essentially makes a living off the H-1B visa program knowing full well how destructive it is to his fellow Americans.  He then writes a blog intended to enrage the victims of this visa program and thus garner himself more page views.  If you're not part of the solution Don, you're part of the problem.  But then again, you never really cared about any "solution" in the first place, did you?

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Mar 8, 2011 10:07 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says:

American  Tech professionals and engineers    are   outraged   becuase no  one is listening to  them

here's  a few   postings  from   years years  ago  

The scandal you are not hearing about:

http://www.etherzone.com/2002/jack102102.shtml    removed  but posted at

http://www.americanreformation.org/Articles/GlennJackson/EnronandH1BVisas.htm

Is Anybody out there?

Is Anybody listening?

www.rense.com/general35/wakeupNHwakeup.htm

and why isn't  this story being covered"?

Jim Crow in Silicon Valley is Exposed

http://www.eiass.com/Article-JimCrowe.html

The news  media  is  "Spinning"  the H-1b  story   in support of more foreign workers.  Where are the reports on American Job Destruction, the  plight of American workers ?

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Mar 8, 2011 10:19 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to P Henry

Here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Please fasten your seatbelts -- it looks like we're going to be encountering some turbulence.

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Mar 8, 2011 10:35 AM James Murphy James Murphy  says:

The anti H-1B argument is not being taken seriously for two reasons:  first the number of people hurt by it is too small to have political clout and second, and more important, the other side has the money.  Back when the cap increase to 195,000 members of Congress, in a couple of incidents of rare candor, admitted that the H1-B legislation was purely because of the industry's campaign contributions.  Sen. Robert Bennett (R-Utah) remarked,

"Once it's clear (the visa bill) is going to get through, everybody signs up so nobody can be in the position of being accused of being against high tech. There were, in fact, a whole lot of folks against it, but because they are tapping the high-tech community for campaign contributions, they don't want to admit that in public."

Rep. Tom Davis (R-Va.), said, "This is not a popular bill with the public. It's popular with the CEOs...This is a very important issue for the high-tech executives who give the money." 

Against that the 85,000 Americans who do not get hired each year because of the H-1B are insignificant opposition and no real threat to employers.

A Harris Poll in 1998 found that 82% of those surveyed were opposed to the H-1B expansion bill.  All that did was cause the Congress to act behind closed doors and pretend that the H-1B did no harm.

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Mar 8, 2011 11:47 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to James Murphy

Well, let's see, one side is fighting for access to cushy jobs, another side is fighting for their lives. Wonder who'll sound angriest?

Also, @User, the damage from excessive H-1B caps sounds small on a yearly basis, but is cumulative. By now, well over a million of them are still here, with more coming in all the time. The current jobless figures reflect this in part. America is now feeling the effects of a decade of mass work visa abuse. 

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Mar 8, 2011 11:53 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says:

Don is trying to act like Gandhi now, in the hopes that the natives will stop being restless and look at the upside of embracing the upper-caste H[indu]1-B invasion.  Just think folks, you get to experience the stench of curry, the stamp of muddy footprints on toilet seats, and the misogynist stink-eye from the feral scabs!  What a joy!

What a collaborator coward.  Don't buy the hype, and don't bring a knife to a gun fight.  This rhetorical race war was started by Vivek, encouraged by folks like Don, and will continue until we are all dead.  We Americans are in a global gladiator pit, and it is every race/nation for themselves.  It is better to accept that and fling the PC psycho-babble in the trash and GET READY TO RUMBLE.

Many of you Americans have the power to stop the scab invaders, and I urge you to do more than post worthy vitriol here.  Gaslight all the collaborators in your organizations and sabotage the reps of the IOR (Indian Outsourcing Regime) like Infosys, Tata, HCL, & WiPro that have infiltrated your American companies.  Ignore their illiterate emails and demands for documentation and training of their "debelopers". 

Rise up, America, and cast this plague off of our shores.

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Mar 8, 2011 12:44 PM John C. Welch John C. Welch  says: in response to Tunnel Rat

Funny but America was booming back when Americans were running IT. We got along just great before the mass 3rd world invasion. Since the invasion began in late 1998 it's been nothing but downhill ever since. The defintion of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

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Mar 8, 2011 12:50 PM Bob Bob  says:

"The mainstream media can be at least partially forgiven for presuming that since the most vociferous people conveying the anti-H-1B message convey it in a way that casts them as almost embarrassingly ignorant, there must not be an intelligent anti-H-1B argument to be made."

this is incredible information, Don, you're telling me that I actually control NBC News!  WOW!  My actions influence Tom Brokaw!  You've made my day.  The last time I walked past the GE building in Manhattan, I would have never guessed that I control them.  I wish I had know, I would have felt incredible pride

I think I'll set up an agency for clients that need particular new coverage, I'll just write message board posts in my current style in favor of whatever position they are against - NBC News will read the messages, know that my side is 'wrong', then only cover my client's side of the story - I'm going to be rich!

THANKS DON!!!!!

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Mar 8, 2011 12:54 PM Don Don  says:

just curious Don, when you were at the NSA, did you ever work in disinformation?

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Mar 8, 2011 12:56 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to R. Lawson

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, Roy. You call it a "kumbaya moment" and a "love-fest" that's better accomplished with a recipe exchange. You say my outlook lacks substance. I say it's the very substance of the future of humankind. You want food on the American table. I want food on the human table. There was another piece that happened to be on the NBC Evening News, just tonight, in fact, about people from Tunisia who had traveled to Libya to help feed and clothe the refugees there. An NBC reporter asked one of the Tunisian men why he was doing it. "Are you human?" the man asked. "Yes," the reporter replied. "So am I," he said. "So are they." Then he shrugged as if he found it hard to understand why the reporter would ask the question in the first place, and he went back to work. You go the recipe-exchange route, Roy. I'll cast my lot with that Tunisian guy, and say we're humans first, and Americans/non-Americans second. No, the H-1B isn't the answer to our problems. But to me the simple idea of crossing national borders to share knowledge and ideas, which is facilitated by the idea of guest worker visas, is a step in the right direction. I would submit to you that we need to step in that direction if there is to be food on anybody's table in the generations to come.

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Mar 9, 2011 3:04 AM Jeff Jeff  says:

What about this add- on the same Dice.com

Urgent Need - Business Analyst / Data Analyst in McLean, VA - NO H1B'

-So point is -business owners decide what they want. For one person stupidity deosn,t mean everything is stupid.

Dont complain- think in a more realistic way. A person coming allover thousand of mile away from home town- leaving family and friends. He is here for search of oppertunity - which is tiny.

not all companies welcome H1- Among the millions of jobs -only 3-5% may be for H1.

Afterall that is not a SIN. Capatilistic ideas always -go for profits-profits lead to missary-missary leads -


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Mar 9, 2011 4:54 AM Warior(One Leg Warrior) Warior(One Leg Warrior)  says:

Don ! I know you are very generous man and I am very impressed... I have a question for you Don, why don't you donate your own job to guess worker to help them out ?

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Mar 9, 2011 8:29 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says:

Help me out here....

Why is it all too often I have to go to INDIAN websites  to learn of the issues, the problems with the H-1B  program.   Seems the Indian are  very  very  interest in our program

here's some news the American (Corporate)  Business Press is not covering

Check the following

US employee alleges large-scale visa fraud at Infosys

http://www.hindustantimes.com/US-employee-alleges-large-scale-visa-fraud-at-Infosys/Article1-667250.aspx

seems a month doesn't  go by and yet another scandal ,  problems with the H-1B program is exposed  ...   but then   most of it ignored by the (American) media.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/ites/court-case-against-infosys-accuses-it-of-visa-and-tax-fraud/articleshow/7580456.cms

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Mar 9, 2011 9:10 AM test test test test  says:

Don says he supports H-1B but isn't a fan of the policy as implemented.  He laments the fact that skilled enterpreneurs can't get into the country.

The question then is, should the H-1B cap be increased, or stay where it is?  Don admits that current H-1B slots are underutilized, being filled by cheap labor rather than by truly talented, high-end workers and entrepreneurs.

What if current H-1B slots were properly utilized?  Would the best and brightest get in then?

Probably.  The H-1B cap, then, does not need to go up.  It can remain where it is.

---

That said, Brokaw's piece is by and large, a rouse.  Enterpreneurs aren't getting H-1B visas.  Period.

Why not?

Because it takes months, sometimes years, to develop a business plan and a prototype, get funding, and get a business off of the ground.  It's impossible to accomplish this and get sponsored on an H-1B visa at the same time.  Venture capitalists are listening, and perhaps they are investing--but they are not sponsoring.

One of the most popular examples of an immigrant entrepreneur-Phillipe Kahn, founder of Borland-was not a H-1B but rather an illegal immigrant.  It's not suprising.  The only way to get an H-1B visa is to become an employee, and it's impossible to develop prototypes, chase funding, and be an employee at the same time.

Perhaps that's whats wrong with H-1B.  It's focus on tech employees is so narrow that entrepreneurs can't get in.  Had H-1B been around in 1900, a telegraph operator would have been sponsored and we would have told Jack Kraft of Kraft foods to stay in Canada.  After all, Jack Kraft had nothing to do with high tech telegraphs and he never went to college.

But Kraft Foods is a much cooler company than those new-fangled telegraphs don't you think?  So much for having the government predict what technical workers the economy needs.

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Mar 9, 2011 9:26 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to test test

Oh yeah? Well I started my own business and am trying to get into the contracting and staffing business, especially governmental. Guess who's already there, not just the workers, the companies. Why are they here when we need to get work? Where is the Neufeld memo when we need it? No good reason whatsoever. And when they start a company, they usually would rather get tied down over an anthill than hire 'goras.'

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Mar 9, 2011 9:48 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Dolores

Because, Dolores, Indians are DISADVANTAGED in IT, and are eligible for section 8(a) contracts.

Many come to the US and put up with low wages with express intent of starting a section 8a company the moment they are greencarded.

Disadvantaged, of course, does not mean economically disadvantaged, because Indians aren't.  It means, simply, not caucasian.  This type of entreprenurial activity isn't highlighted on NBC news very much.  It's closely related to this type of enterprenurial activity:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-03-04/local/28669557_1_budget-gap-charter-schools-massive-teacher-layoffs

Yes--the companys ripping the government off in this case are almost all Indian, section 8a "disadvantaged" contractors.

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Mar 9, 2011 10:13 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Test Test

"Hevar Systems" is hiring 3 programmers at the NYC department of education.  The technology is high tech.  Very high tech.  So high tech that it won't change a bit in the next two years.

Either that, or it's messy.  Very messy.  So messy it won't get done in two years.  Take your pick, keeping in mind that the screenshot of the computer contractor above is using a VB6 app running on Windows XP.

OK, here's the position.  There's 3 of them, right now, being offered by a Indian-owned Section 8a contractor:

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=hevarsection8a&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=ee7ae51cefa9981c

Position:- 3

Brooklyn, NY

24 months

Programmer Analyst II - Developer

Assignment Description

The New York City Department of Education requires the services of a

consultant to perform application development activities in an environment

that utilizes the .NET Framework.

Under the direction of NYC Department of Education management, consultant

should be able to perform application development, maintenance and

production support of web-based transactional systems. The consultant must

be a highly experienced, self-motivated, creative team player, who is able

to perform application or database architecture duties or lead a team of

developers, if necessary.  He/she will be expected to participate in all

activities that comprise the system development life cycle, including code

walk-through and documentation.  In addition, the consultant will be

expected to participate in the development of application development

standards.  These applications are related to, but not limited to the

following areas:

.        Employee Recruitment

.        HR Management

.        Case Management

.        Student Administration

.        Executive and Analytical Reporting

Requirements

The core competencies for the position are as follows:

.        Five or more years of technical IT experience - required.

.        Excellent written and verbal communication skills - required.

.        Web Services, BizTalk, DTS, HTML, ASP.NET, VB.NET, ADO.NET,  C#,

Assemblies, XML, ASP, VB, COM/DCOM, MTS, ADO, VB Script, JAVA Script,

ActiveX, IIS, MS SQL/Server, Active Directory, Windows Integrated Security,

Visual Studio -  required.

.        LDAP, Crystal Reports, Oracle, DB2 Connect, UML, digital signature

- highly desired.

.        Application/database design and team leadership skills - highly

desired.

.        MS Word, MS Excel, MS Project, MS PowerPoint, Visio, MS Share Point

- highly desired.

.        Public sector experience and K-12 Education experience - desired.

.        HR, Financial, and Payroll/Personnel application experience -

highly desired.

The current applications have been developed in Microsoft ASP/VB and .NET

technologies.

Thanks And Regards

Arun

Hevar Systems Inc.

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Mar 9, 2011 12:04 PM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Don Tennant

"do you think it might possibly have something to do with the fact that employers aren't particularly keen to hire people who want to round other people up and subject them to violent death?"

Apparently not Don. Corporate America seems to be enthralled with hiring millions of people from the Indian subcontinent whose cultural caste system insures the daily rounding up and burning of lower-caste Dalits. India is known the world over as being one of the most violent countries on earth. But as long as the people being hired aren't angry white Americans, then it's perfectly fine.

Besides, FEMA is planning to do that to upity Americans who dare resist the NWO anyway. Rounding up and killing is common the world over. It's only when white Americans suggest it that you (the media) seem to have a problem with it.

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Mar 10, 2011 1:07 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Test Test

>> Then, Don, you would agree with tearing down the borders and letting in the billions of people who are NOT programmers.  <<

IT is just another job.  As the above points out, why not let everybody in the US

>> After all, the list immigrant entrepreneurs is much larger among non-college grads than it is among the college-educated employees that the H-1B visa selects. <<

Agreed

>> There is no particular reason to pick on IT for visas. <<

IT is just another job for the most part.  Why not have an H1B program for all labor to keep wages down.

>>  It does not prevent outsourcing (as H-1Bs are three times more expensive than overseas workers); it does not select entrepreneurs, and those entreprenuers that it DOES select seem to more orientated towards taking advanatage of government regulations than true innovators. <<

H1Bs are the "insourcing" visa.  H1Bs come to the US to learn the job from Americans whose severance package is conditioned on training the H1Bs who then take the job back to India. (Ref: BofA in Concord, CA shutting down the IT department in 2002)

"Americans and Indians working "side by side" proudly to improve corporate profits by exporting jobs"

>> Actually, it may not be suprising that the H-1B visa selects people who are good at skirting government regulations. <<

Agreed

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Mar 10, 2011 1:18 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Gosh, Don just admitted:

1. That he doesn't care about enforcing US immigration laws or protecting US boundaries.

2. That it is ok with him if Americans starve and die in America because foreigners fraudulently take away their livelihoods (this is a summary of what the H-1B program is all about. Anyone who supports it is supporting this whether they realize it or not.).

2. That America doesn't have any special place in his affections.

Don just tinkled on the entire concept of patriotism and American law. Yet we have shown over and over again that the intentions of foreigners towards Americans is not always fair and nice. Heck, I'd let in an H-1B if it was a trade for him.

I'm an American, not just by birth but by caring about America and putting it first. Don just showed he isn't an American, never mind where he was born. If America is just a big fat pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, of course it's unfair not to lot foreigners come grab a chunk. But it's not.  The open borders attitude shows an immense contempt for those of us whose fortunes are pledged here. America is not a winning lotto ticket. It was built by past Americans and Americans most certainly deserve a primacy of consideration here. America is not a pie to be chopped up and shared. It's not an all-you-can eat buffet. It belongs first to Americans, but Don is ok with Americans being elbowed aside and discriminated against in their own land. Because that's what's happening.

I'm dog-tired of Don's contempt for America and American workers. That's what it is. Maybe it's his religion. But it's too bad that a global religion, failing at producing world peace, will simply settle for producing fifth columnists. 'The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens,'  - this was the credo of its leader. No wonder there is so little respect for American law here. Do we really owe India our lives, considering how they messed up their own country? According to this, we do.

A much more wise and mature religion declared that God determines the rise and fall of nations, and ordered mankind: Thou shalt not covet.

H-1Bs and their supporters don't seem to have that commandment.

But in the religion of globalism, thievery, deception, fraud, and twisting laws is all ok. But I say that Americans still have the right of self-defense against the international Crips that constitute the H-1B progam supporters.

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Mar 10, 2011 1:26 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to hoapres

Regarding this:

"If you take the 'people are people' argument to the extreme then Americans should cut back on food consumption to feed the starving third world."

This may shock the daylights out of you, but there are a lot of people who don't think that's all that extreme.

In response to this:

"Would you rather have homeless people less than a mile from your house or thousands of miles away?"

Wow. What difference does it make? What do you think my response should be? Thousands of miles away, so I don't have to look at them? Thousands of miles away, so I can pretend the problem doesn't exist?

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Mar 10, 2011 1:32 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Um, I HAVE homeless people less than a mile from my house, in middle America. Some of them were former IT workers.

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Mar 10, 2011 1:39 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> This may shock the daylights out of you, but there are a lot of people who don't think that's all that extreme. <<

This may shock the daylights out of you but Americans are among the most generous people on earth. 

They (on an individual level) go out of their way to help those in need.

>> Wow What difference does it make?

Well

What is more likely to bring down the social order in YOUR country.  Let's use some common sense, don't you think it would be a good idea that people in THIS country are gainfully employed before bringing in more people.

This should be a no brainer. If one has to choose between exporting jobs to the third world than to bring the third world to the US then ship the jobs overseas.

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Mar 10, 2011 1:42 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Dolores, since you brought up religion, do you think it matters to God whether a homeless person is American or not? If it doesn't matter to God, then why would He want it to matter to us?

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Mar 10, 2011 1:58 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

To answer your question, I would call upon common sense. To God, of course it doesn't matter. But at the same time, there is a realization that people need to do what they need to do. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, the question of 'Who is my neighbor' i.e. who should I care about and help was answered eloquently. Helping the distressed traveller did not entail rendering the local Samaritan community homeless and hungry, much less causing the traveller to supplant them in their own land. But that is what's happening to hundreds of thousands of competent, formerly productive American workers in their own land.

Individual and community generousity upon confrontation with suffering? You bet. But we need to balance that against 'Thou shalt not steal' and 'He who provides not for his own house denies the faith.' These are an admonition against fraud and trickery (rife within the H-1B program) and a reassertion of our own responsibility to take care of our own. (charity begins at home)

I remember, in the early days, before we understood the enourmity of the problem facing us, that some of us would try to explain the suffering of the jobless in America to Indians by way of trying to get them to understand why we were fighting the H-1B program. It fell on deaf ears. Families homeless? People living on the streets? Children dying of starvation and preventable diseases? They didn't care because that was the daily reality in India and they didn't see a problem with making us share that too so that some of them could get ahead. That was their philosophy. When some of us spoke about their duty to use their education and abilities to help their own folks back home, we were told that if we felt like helping the poor of India, we should go ahead, but that was viewed by them as a private, optional calling. I submit that the current problems of modern India are primarily their doing and their responsibility to solve. We can help, but not to the point of suicide. That's crazy.

There are lots of laws given about 'sojourners' in the Bible and admonitions to be kind to them. But there are also admonitions to the sojourners to obey the local laws and to assimilate. People tend not to quote that far.

So, give of my own income and time to help others? You bet, even to the pont where it pinches and inconveniences me. But I'm smart enough to know I can't fix India, and making white collar America homeless and unemployed is not really going to help them, salivating though they may be.

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Mar 10, 2011 2:28 AM twins.fan twins.fan  says:

This is a totally superficial industry biased story that presents the story benefiting the owners of this network.  I used to have respect for Tom Brokaw.  Now he is playing the Bill Gates talking points, but what would you expect from MSNBC, the Bill Gates Broadcasting Network?

First of all, the USCIS prints up around 200,000 to 250,000 H1B visas every year.  The 65,000 or 85,000 number, which ever you want to use, is total BS.  And that is just the start.  That does not include the L1, OPT, B1, and the other alphabet soup visas used to bring in cheap labor into the US to replace US STEM workers.

Second of all, the H1B visa is mostly used to import entry level workers, not experienced workers.

Third, a million US STEM workers have lost their careers in the past decade due to the massive importation of cheap labor from India.

Why don't we ever hear those stories?  Why does Tom Brokaw not come on the air and talk about the abuses of the H1B visa?

When you know the intimate details about a certain issue, and you see Tom Brokaw give a shallow, superficial whitewash presentation benefiting Brokaw's employer, how can you believe anything else that Tom Brokaw says?

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Mar 10, 2011 2:48 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Dolores, we can all "but" from now till the cows come home, and rationalize it all in a way that's most beneficial to ourselves. You say that it doesn't matter to God whether a homeless person is American or not. I agree. The difference between you and me is what we consider to be common sense. To me, common sense tells me that if God doesn't make the distinction, then He doesn't want me to, either, so I try to live my life that way. Is that so bad?

Some of the things you've written suggest you believe I wish Americans ill. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you truly believe that. I think you know that I don't wish anyone ill. I didn't tinkle on the concept of patriotism. I love my country. As you know, I have sacrificed for my country. I do have a special affection for America. I'm an American. But having a special affection for my homeland doesn't mean that I should be less concerned about the wellbeing of people outside of this country than I am about the wellbeing of people in this country. You mentioned the Bible, so I presume you're Christian, which means, based on what you said about God, that you believe Jesus doesn't prefer the wellbeing of one person over another simply by virtue of what country he was born in. It's fine to disagree with my views, Dolores, but can't you just accept that since Jesus doesn't prefer the wellbeing of one person over another based on whether he's American, then it's OK for me not to?

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Mar 10, 2011 3:23 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

What if you were a witness to a crime. What if you knew about a fraud ring that was preying on a vulnerable segment of your community? Would you lift a finger to put a stop to it? Of course you would.

I would insist that the H-1B program as it has become is such an entity. Competent American workers are being displaced for no good reason, which was not supposed to happen. I would insist that we have a duty, not just a right, to try and stop a harmful scam that may well cost America its technological well being as well as impose suffering on millions of American workers.

I've been a witness to claims that this is just "migration" which neither can or should be stopped. I've heard some of them claim that America (the most generous county in the world) has it coming. I've interacted with more of them and their supporters than I can count, and I don't like what I've heard and seen. I don't mean personally, I mean the philosophy expressed towards America and Americans.

When I have grandchildren, I want them to have a shot at a career in technology, just like my grandfather did (yes, American technological expertise goes back a long ways). If some people have their way, 'goras' and 'hubshees' will not be allowed to work in tech jobs in America. Their ambitions and talents will be dismissed out of hand. Some of us see that happening in some (American) places already. We don't treat them that way, but not all cultures have our laws and scruples.

If you don't want to get involved, simply understand that I do. The open-mindedness and generousity of America is being severely abused by the guestworker visa programs. Nobody is saying 'no Indians' here. But we certainly don't have room for all 1.2 billion of them either. The appropriate answer is something reasonable in between. And, the appropriate answer is not to pauperize Americans in their own land. That will not fix India.

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Mar 10, 2011 3:33 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

Let's use some common sense.

Labor is just labor.

IT is just like being a janitor, stock broker, plumber, etc.  If a labor shortage exists then a prospective employer has a simple solution.

PAY MORE MONEY.

WHY should ANY young American enter a field such that one needs to compete with legions and legions of foreign CHEAP labor imports that are willing to work for almost NOTHING.

Wages in IT have dropped so much that many are working for FREE as unpaid interns in a vain attempt to find gainful employment.

The only good news (if it can be called that) is that the rest of the planet (being India and China for IT) have "figured it out" that coming to the US results in one being a wage slave with very little opportunities for advancement.

Bright Indians and Chinese are NOT coming to the US for the most part and the ones that do are intending to go BACK HOME to start their OWN companies.

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Mar 10, 2011 4:30 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Dolores, I agree with every word of what you wrote, with a single exception -- I have not reached the point of labeling the H-1B program a "sham." I don't think it's a sham. I think it's being abused, and I hate the fact that it's being abused, and I hate what that abuse is doing to American families. The fact is, there are a lot of good, hardworking, wonderful people who are not abusing the system. I don't want to see them punished because of what the abusers do. We need to clean up the abuse, not dismiss the program as a sham. At least that's where my head's at right now.

I understand that you want to get involved. I admire you for that. I want to get involved, too, and I have. We just happen to have fundamentally different approaches to fixing the problem. Why can't that be OK? I believe the solution lies in changing the attitudes that underly conflict and foster abuse. So I write about the need to change those attitudes. I understand that you disagree with that approach, and that's fine. But why do it in a disparaging way?

So yes, I understand. Now, let me go back to my question, which underlies where I'm coming from, and which wasn't a rhetorical one. Can you understand that since Jesus doesn't prefer the wellbeing of one person over another based on whether he's American, then it's OK for me not to?

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Mar 10, 2011 4:37 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> I don't think it's a sham

Of course it is a sham

Again let's use some common sense.

If we have a shortage of plumbers then we don't import plumbers but simply raise plumber's salaries to encourage more people to enter the field.

In IT we just simply bring in more low cost foreign workers.

The H1B program was started in the late 1980s with the avowed goal by the NSF to keep labor costs in the STEM fields DOWN.

It has worked exactly as intended.

Young American are avoiding STEM (and IT) fields for the obvious reason that they are going to be competing with people willing to live like the third world in this country.

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Mar 10, 2011 5:02 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

No problem with Jesus and compassion, the problem is when we build on the basic premise of everyone being precious in the sight of God to somehow reach a viewpoint where American workers become patsies in an international influence game.

I disagree with you about the overall nature of the H-1B program because of one simple fact: it's based upon a lie. The lie was about some shortage of tech workers we were supposed to be having. That was never true.

Now the lie is, yeah we have workers, but they don't have up to date skills so we have to bring in foreign workers. Also a lie, because the foreign workers don't have the skills either. Their resumes are edited, they have tricks and support networks for learning on the job, and they will work for somewhat less money.

How can a program based upon a defamatory lie turn out good? Good for America and Americans, I mean.

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Mar 10, 2011 5:46 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

>> That was never true.

Totally accurate.

We never had a shortage but a chronic glut of unemployed STEM (and IT) workers.

It is all ABOUT LABOR COST.

This "best and brightest" malarky gets spewed out throught the media by reports that are at best clueless along with not doing their homework.

Lets use some common sense

How many true geniuses exist justifying their importation to the US under these extremely grim economic conditions.  Certainly not 65K+ a year.

Even worse is the importation by academia of low cost wage slaves (aka graduate student TAs) paid by the US taxpayer because young Americans simply have abandoned the STEM fields.

The concept of closing graduate schools down because of the glut of unemployed STEM workers is not even considered.

Lets use some common sense.

If you produce too much of something then you produce LESS.

It is just crazy to go out of our way to encourage people to enter STEM or IT when not enough jobs exist to go around.

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Mar 10, 2011 7:59 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to jobs4us

Actually, the secret I was trying to expose is that Indian firms deliberately bankrupt government agencies (who hire them based on their race) by intentionally using horrible coding practices.

At the New York Deparment of Education, $52 million dollars a year, for five years, has bought about 50 applications with about 50 data entry forms each.  That's 100 thousand dollars per data entry form.

White male-owned firms are ineligible for these contracts.  Indian-owned firms win the bids on them (they are "racial minorities" and perceived by government officials as being cheap despite becoming very expensive when the invoice is actually sent.)

These dishonest minority contractors account for much of the "entreprenurial activity" that former H-1Bs contribute to our country once they are greencarded.  They have no loyalty to the United States and they rather loudly declare us as suckers.

Two stereotypes about Indians exist within the US.  One is "Indians are always cheaper."  The other is "Indians are never poor."

Somehow, these two have never been reconciled.

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Mar 10, 2011 9:05 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to hoapres

Don, I'm sure it doesn't matter to God, nor to Daffy Duck, whether American programmers choose to act as a group in their own interests or not.  However, turning to a higher, lower, or non-existant entity to justify acting in one's own self interest is illogical.  It is to deny one's worth as a being, and as a citizen to feel the need to get approval from another before standing up for oneself--whether that "other" be God, the tooth fairy, or Mickey Mouse.

It is not really a philosopical discussion we should be having here.  Programmers are guaranteed equal protection under the law by the fourteenth ammendment.  No appeal to God is needed.

And as such, one needs to ask: are programmers GETTING equal protection under the law?  In the context of H-1B, are programmers treated exactly the same as truckdrivers and hairdressers?

They aren't.  H-1B targets programmers for special, adverse treatment under the justification that programmers are paid well enough that they can afford to be treated slightly worse if the rest of the country benefits from cheaper and more abundant programmers.

The visa recognizes that it is a special exception to an otherwise protected labor market.  It recognizes that it treats programmers differently-and worse- than everyone else.  That's why there's a cap.

I recognize that the visa isn't likely to disappear any time soon, but feel that raising the cap is unjustifiable.  If there is a concern that truly talented individuals may leave the US due to visa constraints, these can be addressed by better allocating the visa slots we already have.  There less than 7 million college gradutes each year in the US; less than 5% of these are foreign, so 65,000 H-1Bs is more than adequate to cover any foreign student in the upper 10 percentile.

Don, you start out arguing economics and business.  Then later on, you start arguing religion and utiltarian charity--as if programmers need to prove a greater worth before asserting their equal rights as citizens.  Do us a favor and leave both Jesus and Mickey Mouse out of your arguements.

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Mar 10, 2011 9:28 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Test Test

Actually, Don did not bring up Jesus. Don is Baha'i. (See his twitter page, dontennant)

I was wondering why so much sympathy for non-Americans, so much blame for Americans.

We are in a fight for our lives here in this country. Of course we have the right. We just aren't getting the respect we deserve. It's way bigger than just this blog. 

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Mar 10, 2011 9:29 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Test Test

I did not inject religion into the discussion. I responded to a reader who injected my religion into the discussion, and all of my comments that mentioned religion were directed to that reader. You're welcome to read the comments I address to a specific reader -- this is, after all, an open forum. But it is not your place to tell me what to write about or not write about in my blog, and it is most especially not your place to tell me what to write or not write to one of my readers. None of this is required reading for programmers or anyone else, my friend.  If you're not interested in it, I suggest you don't read it.

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Mar 10, 2011 9:41 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

And I am an ex Mormon ex Gospel Doctrine (adult sunday school) teacher. I often hear people defend illegal immigrants and globalism on religious grounds, and I am so ready for them ..... Utah just passed a guestworker law for illegals, btw.

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Mar 10, 2011 9:46 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Don Tennant

Programmers read blogs about H-1B so that they may comment on, and collectively attempt to defeat well-published arguements in support of increasing the Visa.  It is not your blog, but rather the fact it appears in the Google News results for H-1B visas, that causes American programmers to show up discussing the issue.

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Mar 10, 2011 9:48 AM Warior Warior  says: in response to Dolores

@Dolores, I believe Don is Hindu instead of Bahai..

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Mar 10, 2011 10:05 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Test Test

It's my blog regardless of where it appears. If you or anyone else chooses to read it in order to try to defeat the positions I stand for, that's fine. But I will reiterate that it is not your place to instruct me as to what to write about in my blog or in the comments I address to my readers.

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Mar 10, 2011 10:13 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Warior

To some limited extent the Anti-H1B argument is "GOING somewhere".  Not very quickly to be sure but those few of us who have been complaining since the early 1990s can testify that it was next to impossible to debunk the myth of a science and engineering manpower shortage.

At least this time around the anti-H1B crowd is starting to get heard.

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Mar 10, 2011 10:19 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to hoapres

@hoapres: And, the Neufeld memo, the increased fee, the increase in audits (RFEs), and the recent GAO report. Too little, too late? Perhaps but there's a definite change in the air.

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Mar 10, 2011 10:21 AM walterbyrd walterbyrd  says:

As usual, Don is outright lying. There is no reason on earth that NBC could not have given equal time to somebody like Norm Matloff, or Ron Hira.

Don, please explain why a few message board posters prevented NBC from being fair. I could use a good laugh.

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Mar 10, 2011 10:22 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dolores

If you believe my economic predictions posted since 2007 posted on the Dice bulletin board then the issue is going to be moot.

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Mar 10, 2011 11:15 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to hoapres

OK, sorry about that.  Please continue to quote God's opinion that American Programmers are equal to Indian programmers, but not equal to American truckdrivers.

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Mar 10, 2011 12:07 PM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> Of course they're not here to help feed and clothe us, Dolores. <<

Agreed

>> They're here to help feed and clothe their families. <<

Agreed

>>  You're looking at the immediate impact of the growing pains of an economy that's going irreverstibly global. <<

That "immediate impact" might be all that matters should you be the one that is about to go homeless because you can't find a job.

>> I'm looking at the long-term impact of the baby steps of an economy that's going irreversibly global. <<

Right now most are concerned about the short term.

>>  It's simply a matter of two different philosophies. <<

Just maybe we should concern ourselves with the US for a change.

>> You're most concerned about feeding and clothing people in this country. <<

DUH

DUH

DUH

Let's use some common sense here.  Consider this like the family table.  You are going to feed YOUR family first before feeding someone elses family.

>>  I'm most concerned about feeding and clothing people regardless of what country they happen to have been born in. <<

Your attitude might change when you see legions of homeless people at your doorstep looking for food.

>> I recognize that there are people who absolutely detest that way of thinking. <<

Some of us can't afford the luxury of the above way of thinking.

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Mar 10, 2011 12:24 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to hoapres

I would argue that we can't afford the luxury of not adopting that way of thinking. And with respect to the family metaphor, I, too am most concerned about caring for my family first -- that's the nature of the family unit. But outside of that, I'm disinclined to distinguish between people solely on the basis of whether they happen to have been born in this country or not. People are people, and there's nothing inherently preferable about legions of homeless people looking for food in one country rather than another. I don't take the position that a problem that's not on my doorstep is not my problem.

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Mar 10, 2011 12:30 PM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Test Test

The secret is out We have exposed the hidden job market for USA jobs American jobs, only advertised in INDIA. Yes, India.    And these Indian recruiters have gone through elaborate hoops to make sure Americans can't find out about their American cash cow-jobs in YOUR zip code,

Don't get mad, get even. 

We can do more than blog.

American citizens are legally eligible to apply for these positions.  It's time for American Tech Workers to assert our legal rights and APPLY for these jobs.  

Show India's recruiting/outsourcing/offshoring companies that that Americans won't roll over and play dead while surrendering our paychecks.    The United States Congress abolished segregated employment in 1964.  There is no way on the planet earth that these greedy people can deny talented Americans the right to apply and compete for jobs that we are qualified to do. 

American citizens are ARE LEGALLY ELIGIBLE to apply and compete for jobs in our own country.

DO NOT let these USA jobs only advertised in India get offshored.   APPLY and APPLY OFTEN.

Tell your friends, family, students, unemployed, and colleagues to apply, often

For jobs that you don't plan to apply to,  fax (for legal reasons)

1. Fax a copy of job posting(s) in your area to the senior most contact at the employer (HR, Legal, and Senior Executives). Ask these hotshots why the bypass American citizens for jobs in the community and exclusively hire offshore.

Then, send a copy of your letter and the job ads to your local newspaper or media outlet, elected officials, unemployment office, and college.

3. Fax (regularly) copies of job postings in your community to your elected officials in Congress and ask them what they are doing to fix the problem.  

Like many people responding to this article, I too am a laid off tech worker.   By exposing these egregious job postings,  I hope we together can do more than blog.  These ads show in black and white that American citizens are being bypassed for jobs in our own country. These ads are real, easy to understand, and, illegal,  if these don't get Congress and the media to take action we'll need to ask Egypt ways to get our voices heard peacefully (sort of).  

Together we can and must reclaim our own, and America's  w Apply Now. Apply Often.  Tell Everyone.

You can find these formerly secret USA jobs on Twitter 

www.twitter.com/usjobsoffshored

I hope a fellow American can find a job by exposing these secret job ads. 

Thank you

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Mar 10, 2011 12:36 PM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Don Tennant

Then, Don, you would agree with tearing down the borders and letting in the billions of people who are NOT programmers.   After all, the list immigrant entrepreneurs is much larger among non-college grads than it is among the college-educated employees that the H-1B visa selects.

There is no particular reason to pick on IT for visas.  It does not prevent outsourcing (as H-1Bs are three times more expensive than overseas workers); it does not select entrepreneurs, and those entreprenuers that it DOES select seem to more orientated towards taking advanatage of government regulations than true innovators.

Actually, it may not be suprising that the H-1B visa selects people who are good at skirting government regulations.

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Mar 10, 2011 12:42 PM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Test Test

make that:

"the list of immigrant entrepreneurs is much larger among non-college grads than it is among the college-educated employees that the H-1B visa selects."

My suggestions would be:

1.  Leave the cap where it is.

2.  Try to ensure we sponsor the best and brightest.

3.  Leave some flexability for change among H-1B recipients

4.  Eliminate Indians from Section 8a contracts.  They aren't disadvantaged.

5.  Monitor government spending on IT contractors to make sure that true innovation is occuring.

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Mar 10, 2011 12:59 PM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> I would argue that we can't afford the luxury of not adopting that way of thinking. <<

In the long run the standard of living throughout the planet will even itself out.

>> And with respect to the family metaphor, I, too am most concerned about caring for my family first -- that's the nature of the family unit. But outside of that, I'm disinclined to distinguish between people solely on the basis of whether they happen to have been born in this country or not.<<

Maybe old fashioned but saying "people are people" sounds to me that you don't believe in taking care of the US first.

If you take the "people are people" argument to the extreme then Americans should cut back on food consumption to feed the starving third world.

>> People are people, and there's nothing inherently preferable about legions of homeless people looking for food in one country rather than another.<<

Well

How about this ?

Would you rather have homeless people less than a mile from your house or thousands of miles away.

Nor is this rhetorical as homeless (IT people I might add) exist in Silicon Valley.

Of course, no one wants to see homeless people anywhere.

>> I don't take the position that a problem that's not on my doorstep is not my problem. <<

Some might not have that luxury and have only the resources to deal with a problem in their own backyard.

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Mar 11, 2011 1:31 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Warior

American programmers have two attributes.   They are Americans, and they are programmers.

Some on this forum claim that "all programmers should be treated equally (regardless of origin.)"  This, in effect, makes anyone whose primary skillset is Information Technology, who were born with this talent, rather than others, a non-citizen for all pratical purposes.

The constitution claims that "all Americans should be treated equally."  That an American programmer, and an American truckdriver should have equal rights and equal protections.

Some on this forum have invoked God to support their arguement.  That explains where I was coming from when I (sarcastically) told them to "continue to quote God's opinion that American Programmers are equal to Indian programmers, but not equal to American truckdrivers."

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Mar 11, 2011 1:56 AM P Henry P Henry  says:

For those of us who have been working in IT for over ten years, the single most hilarious aspect of the H-1B is that these slaves are somehow competent workers.  For example, I just finished speaking with a "tech" from a well-known virtualization company and this person was borderline retarded.  I can tell by the accent and the Palo Alto area code that he's on an h-1b and I literally had to hang the phone up in his face because I couldn't take explaining basic concepts anymore.  Anyone who has any interaction at all with the H-1B workers (and these days that is anyone in IT) can see immediately that there are no "special skills" needed for this cheap labor visa.

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Mar 11, 2011 2:27 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to P Henry

Actually it's even worse than that. There's an expose coming concerning H-1B employment in the US that may dwarf what has already been revealed about their true levels of competence. Stay tuned......

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Mar 11, 2011 11:06 AM Warior Warior  says: in response to Test Test

@Test Test, equal in what term ? Salary or brain ??

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Mar 11, 2011 11:40 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says:

Here  we  go again again again  and AGAIN

Another   case:

Morrow company to give $78,000 in back pay to foreign teachers

 

http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/morrow-company-to-give-867813.html

Seems to me  these case   are  exposed  every  few  months  .. and is this only the tip of the iceberg?   But how much news of these abuses do you see, read,  hear reported?

 

Maybe  now that  Lou Dobbs  returns to  TV  (Fox Business Channel   this  coming Monday) maybe  Dobbs will expose  these cases.   He was one of the few ( very few)  news Journalists  to expose to abuses  in the H-1b  program.   And it was Dobbs  (when he was at CNN)  had   interviews with Prof. Ron Hira,  Prof. Norm Matloff,  and Programmers Guild-  Kim Berry.

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Mar 11, 2011 11:51 AM James Murphy James Murphy  says: in response to Jeff

Jeff,

When you see a job add that says 'No H1B' what it usually means is that there is no job available because they are trying to get a green card for one of their existing H-1B employees who's H-1B is about to expire.   H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.  That is not true for a green card.  To hire a foreign worker on a green card employers must look for an American worker.  What they do is look for an American worker and then find fault with all who apply and then they get the green card.  This is a sham process best seen at youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

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Mar 12, 2011 1:16 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Test Test

It's funny to watch how only American IT workers are being attached. It's plain that anyone can argue that CEOs, VPs, doctors, lawyers, or even news writers are WAY overpaid. But if you work in one of those industries, then "cutting costs" and "being efficient" doesn't apply. It only applies to American IT workers.

Mesa, AZ cops who write tickets? They make $250K a year.

Public hospital admins in CA? They make $800K a year.

But a brilliant American programmer who makes a product that brings in $20 million dollars for the company? OH YOU'RE OVERPAID BECAUSE YOU MAKE $100K.

Make no mistake American IT workers, this is class envy and class warfare. In the 90s our prestige eclipsed that of every other member of society, and they won't stand for it. Hence the need to bring us down so they can look better.

That's all this is.

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Mar 12, 2011 1:20 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Test Test

"Programmers read blogs about H-1B so that they may comment on, and collectively attempt to defeat well-published arguements in support of increasing the Visa.  It is not your blog, but rather the fact it appears in the Google News results for H-1B visas, that causes American programmers to show up discussing the issue."

What well-published arguments in support of H-1B? That importing 10 million of you since 1998 has created the biggest recession in 70 years whereas before you got here, Americans had this economy booming?

Yeah, well-published arguments like that.

You can "argue" in favor of more H-1Bs all you want, but the proof in the actual economy doesn't like: H-1Bs have been a total disaster for America.

Now go back to your hovel in India and stop pumping more propaganda designed to allow India to rape the U.S. economy further.

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Mar 13, 2011 3:01 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Test Test

You can also go to Dice discussion board and under tech market conditions see an ad for OPT workers at $10 an hour requiring an MS degree. 

H1Bs are likely to be a moot point.  IT is pretty much dead in the US and the prospective H1Bs are figuring it out that they are much better off staying at home.

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Mar 13, 2011 6:48 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to hoapres

Not true.

There are people working in IT.  There will be people working in IT 20 years from now.  At decent wages.  A programmer's salary will never fall below the administrative assistants--no matter how many we bring in.  However, there will be massive unemployment because for pratical reasons the wage can't adjust to match the incrase in supply (programmers won't accept less than the admin's salary; and the employer won't offer it anyway.  Wages are sticky, as Keene's liked to say.)

Every job that can go overseas will.  H-1B will only serve to lower wages on the jobs that are left--to a point.  After that point H-1B will only serve to provide misery and unemployment to programmers because the wage is unable to fall any further.

H-1B is not a "moot" point.  There are millions of programming jobs that for legal, logistical, and practical reasons cannot be performed overseas.  The only question is--how many people will be competing for this smaller segment of jobs, and how much will they pay?

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Mar 13, 2011 9:01 AM jeff jeff  says: in response to Test Test

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/US-moves-to-deport-Trinidadian-born-US-Army-veteran

Immigration rules- Sucks- that is the whole point.

If H1B- candidate is linked to his employer- Why should a skilled person become independant- Enterpreneur.

He would create jobs- and Start small firm which compete the enterpreneurs not challange Jobs.

Now- EAD can be given to H1B- skilled people if not green card. The economy will boost.

Since all Skilled people cannot invest here, all the dollars they earn is held up not investing here.

Make the positive of what is happening.

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Mar 13, 2011 9:05 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Wakjob

Wakjob--I am not indian, and I do not support increasing the H-1B cap.

I think American programmers should have the exact same rights as everyone else in the United States.  That means, if we are to have immigration-and to remain a decent nation in the world's eyes and to avoid conflict we must have immigration-then, no particular occupation should be singled out for the pain that immigration causes.

THAT SAID, I recognize the ununionized groups that represent most of the other decent-paying occupations in the United States aren't giving up one cent of their wages and won't accept allowing the visa laws to target them as well.  In this political environment, we won't be bringing in truckdrivers, plumbers or stagehands; tech immigration will remain the only way most people can get into the country legally.  The choices offered by our politicians are "accept only STEM occupations" or "close our doors completely be xenophobic."  I wonder what the world's 6,900,000,000 non-programmers feel about that.

That said, we're in the political environment we're in.  The best we can hope for is to not raise the cap.  So I directed my arguments at that-that we should not raise to H-1B cap because the cap is there for a reason-it recognizes that H-1B is an exception to the labor market protections that all other Americans enjoy; an exception to "treat all Americans equally" and therefore should be limited.  Since there is no shortage, the cap should not be increased.   There are enough visa slots to cover any foreign student in the upper 10 pecentile; any objection that we are missing out on the best and brightest can be answered by better allocating the slots we have.

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Mar 13, 2011 10:09 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to Test Test

Make that "THAT SAID, I recognize the unionized groups that represent most of the other decent-paying occupations in the United States aren't giving up one cent of their wages and won't accept allowing the visa laws to target them as well."

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Mar 14, 2011 2:37 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Test Test

>> Not true. <<

Afraid So.

>> There are people working in IT. <<

With declining salaries.

>> There will be people working in IT 20 years from now. <<

How many is the question ?

>> At decent wages. <<

Afraid Not.

>>  A programmer's salary will never fall below the administrative assistants--no matter how many we bring in.<<

That has already happened.  More often than you might think the administrative assistant makes more than the software engineer.

>>  However, there will be massive unemployment because for pratical reasons the wage can't adjust to match the incrase in supply (programmers won't accept less than the admin's salary; and the employer won't offer it anyway.  Wages are sticky, as Keene's liked to say.) <<

In Silicon Valley with homeless software engineers without unemployment, you either "take it or leave it". 

Every job that can go overseas will.  H-1B will only serve to lower wages on the jobs that are left--to a point.  After that point H-1B will only serve to provide misery and unemployment to programmers because the wage is unable to fall any further.

>> H-1B is not a "moot" point. <<

It's a moot point.

>>  There are millions of programming jobs that for legal, logistical, and practical reasons cannot be performed overseas. <<

On the contrary over 90% of the programming jobs can be performed overseas.  We won't have millions of programming jobs in the US.

>>The only question is--how many people will be competing for this smaller segment of jobs, and how much will they pay? <<

The jobs will be close to minimum wage or even free.  The employee will either accept those near slave like conditions or be terminated at the first complaint.  Happens on a daily basis in Silicon Valley.

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Mar 15, 2011 7:20 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to hoapres

>>  There are millions of programming jobs that for legal, logistical, and practical reasons cannot be performed overseas. <<

>On the contrary over 90% of the programming jobs can be performed overseas.  We won't have millions of programming jobs in the US.<

You realize, of course, that they said this TEN YEARS AGO.  And that, the date on which EVERY programming job could be moved overseas was within the next six months.  They were a bit off, weren't they?

Defense industry:  can't be sent overseas.

Banking information: isn't wanted overseas by consumers

Health care information:  isn't wanted overseas by consumers

Criminal record information: unwise to send overseas

Police information systems: unwise to send overseas

Military information: cannot be sent overseas

Government data:  may times is too sensitive to go overseas.  I did not say "always."  I said many times.  If it requires a clearence to see the information, it cannot go oveseas.  If if involves tax, legal,

Small projects:  Cost a lot to gather requirements.  Cost very little to program.  The requiments gathering will be done in the US--and so will the programming if done by the same person.

All told, is that not MILLIONS of jobs?  I stand by my statement.  Millions of programming jobs will not go oveseas.

Of course, the number of jobs will go down, which makes increasing the H-1B cap hard to justify.

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Mar 16, 2011 5:56 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Test Test

>> You realize, of course, that they said this TEN YEARS AGO.  And that, the date on which EVERY programming job could be moved overseas was within the next six months.  They were a bit off, weren't they? <<

Clearly not every IT job but the majority can be.

>> Defense industry:  can't be sent overseas. <<

Low level defense work can be sent overseas.  More and more of the defense establishment is getting work done OUTSIDE of the US

>> Banking information: isn't wanted overseas by consumers

Health care information:  isn't wanted overseas by consumers <<

And the customer don't really count. 

Come on now

Let's get real.

You think any bank is really concerned about customers leaving because of offshore IT operations.

>>  Criminal record information: unwise to send overseas

Police information systems: unwise to send overseas <<

Maybe so but it is being done.

>> Military information: cannot be sent overseas <<

Done every day.

>> Government data:  may times is too sensitive to go overseas.  I did not say "always."  I said many times.  If it requires a clearence to see the information, it cannot go oveseas.  If if involves tax, legal, <<

Security cleared work is done overseas.  Tax and legal is sent overseas on a daily basis. 

>> Small projects:  Cost a lot to gather requirements.  Cost very little to program.  The requiments gathering will be done in the US--and so will the programming if done by the same person. <<

No it won't.

The trend is to offshore the ENTIRE project. 

>> All told, is that not MILLIONS of jobs?  I stand by my statement.  Millions of programming jobs will not go oveseas. <<

It's not.

I really doubt that it is even hunderds of thousands of jobs.  IT at least from a business point of view is played out.  Version 9,999 of your software works quite well for me and I don't need Version 10,000.

>> Of course, the number of jobs will go down, which makes increasing the H-1B cap hard to justify. <<

Sheer economics is going to drive H1Bs out of business.  Now that Americans are working for close to minimum wage or even free, prospective H1Bs simply won't come over willing to live 12+ in a 1BR apartment.

India and China are at the point such that the US can simply send an order for software like ordering a Mcdonalds cheeseburger and have it shipped without having thousands and thousands and thousands of H1Bs living like the third world in the US

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Mar 16, 2011 8:11 AM Test Test Test Test  says: in response to hoapres

Hoapres lives overseas apparently, because he knows about every project there and none of the projects in this country.

Seriously.  I mentioned these types of projects because I worked on them, and I have not seen them go overseas.  There's been a pattern in the types of projects that have stayed in this country, and I mentioned what it was.

The response was "yes it is" and "no its not" without much proof or justification.  I can not prove to Hoapres that millions of programming jobs will remain in the US.  Even when I mentioned small projects that were not ECONOMICAL to send overseas he response "the entire project will be sent overseas."

What I can prove is this.  Hoapres was saying the same thing five years ago.  And for five years straight, he's been incorrect about the exact date at which less than one million programming jobs will exist in the United States--since I'm pretty sure if you asked Hoapres in 2005 whether 6 million IT jobs would exist in the US in 2011, he would have said no.

Outsourcing IS bad news.   But will millions of jobs remain in the US?  Yes--because it is either cheaper to perform the project here, or more expensive but less risky.

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Mar 16, 2011 9:37 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Test Test

>> Hoapres lives overseas apparently, because he knows about every project there and none of the projects in this country. <<

Sarcasm aside being that I have been overseas.  What I can say is that projects are being offshored on a dailay basis.

>> Seriously.  I mentioned these types of projects because I worked on them, and I have not seen them go overseas.  There's been a pattern in the types of projects that have stayed in this country, and I mentioned what it was. <<

Of course some projects are going to remain in the US but it won't be many.

>> The response was "yes it is" and "no its not" without much proof or justification.  I can not prove to Hoapres that millions of programming jobs will remain in the US.  Even when I mentioned small projects that were not ECONOMICAL to send overseas he response "the entire project will be sent overseas." <<

Wow

A small project of a couple of people staying in the US is going to be pretty small in the grand scheme of things.

>> What I can prove is this.  Hoapres was saying the same thing five years ago.  And for five years straight, he's been incorrect about the exact date at which less than one million programming jobs will exist in the United States--since I'm pretty sure if you asked Hoapres in 2005 whether 6 million IT jobs would exist in the US in 2011, he would have said no. <<

Well

I defy you to find a post of mine on a bulletin board dated from 2006 stating an exact date with my prediction of only a million programming jobs existing in the US.

With the above noted, I definitely have stated that IT has a dismal future in the US.

>> Outsourcing IS bad news.   But will millions of jobs remain in the US?  Yes--because it is either cheaper to perform the project here, or more expensive but less risky. <<

Come on now

Let's get real.

The millions of job remaining in the US depends on the labor costs being cheaper here than overseas.  Banks, large  software companies, etc. are NOT hanging around in the US for the most part. 

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Mar 28, 2011 3:01 AM Jimbo60666 Jimbo60666  says:

My IT co-workers and I have been "rightsized"/outsourced (essentially FIRED) for the 2nd time in 3 years with two different US based companies.  They HIRED Covansys and Wipro respectively and their H-1B visa'ed individuals with to do the work of US citizens.  It is no wonder the employment rates are growing.  We have the HOME GROWN talent and skill RIGHT HERE in AMERICA.  HIRE US! 

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Mar 29, 2011 12:20 PM Mili Mili  says:

I am a little confused here.

If I am not mistaken, H1B is the visa to bring skilled people from outside the US, IF the corresponding skills are not available in US. And thus, those skilled labour are paid salary at par with American Citizens, as the law requires them to.

In this case, why will a company would want to fire a citizen and hire a somebody from outside america and pay him the same amount? Is it not loss for the company?

Isnt outsourcing and H1B visas two completely issues and shouldnt they be dealt separately?

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Mar 30, 2011 1:26 AM Ken Ken  says: in response to Wakjob

Hey Wakjob,

There are angry Americans of all nationalities  that are being affected too.

Who exactly are you mad at? The Indians? Why?

Go and look at the find the top 100, 500, 1000, 10,000 compaines that Outsource jobs, you will find that, in most cases, a non-angry, greedy white American is running it.

I'm not trying to turn this into a race debate, we AMERICANS need to understand that we are all being affected by the H1-B/B1/B2 issue.

So again who are you mad at?

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Mar 31, 2011 4:21 AM ken ken  says: in response to Mili

Should be like that. But is it really happening? Need to stop the missuse of H1b. The intention was good when it started.

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