Why Infosys Chairman's Advocacy of Legalizing Bribe-giving Is So Troubling

Don Tennant

When I read Indian press reports last month that Infosys co-founder and outgoing chairman Narayana Murthy was advocating that giving bribes to officials be made legal so that the bribe-givers could freely report the corrupt officials who accept the bribes, I let it go. It sounded like one of those stupid things that people say without really thinking it through, and it seemed unfair to make a big deal about it. Surely, I thought, Murthy would recognize the outrageousness of advocating such a thing, and he would fairly quickly acknowledge that he shouldn't have said it.

 

Unfortunately, it's been nearly four weeks, and Murthy, whose last day as chairman is Aug. 20, has done nothing to retract what he said or to back away from that position. That he has stood by the idea of advocating the legalization of bribe-giving is extremely troubling, especially when it's considered in the context of the corrupt practices that Infosys is alleged to have engaged in with respect to its visa- and tax-related activities, and its treatment of the employee who blew the whistle on those activities. I'll get to that in a moment.

 

First, it needs to be made absolutely clear that Murthy is not in any way advocating the legalization of bribery in India. To the contrary, his position on legalizing bribe-giving was advanced as a means of combating rampant corruption in India, and in recognition of the need to consider innovative ideas to fix the problem. Moreover, Murthy is not the one who came up with the idea. The notion was floated this spring by Kaushik Basu, the chief economic advisor to India's Ministry of Finance and a professor of economics at Cornell University. But Murthy's full support of the idea is clear. Here's an excerpt from a July 21 Times of India article:

"If bribe giving, and not bribe taking, is made legal then the bribe giver shall indeed cooperate with the authorities to expose the bribe taker," Murthy said. "This seems to be an interesting idea and I think it should be implemented," he added. He said graft had damaged India's growth prospects, adding that "the double-digit growth that has eluded India could have been ours if we had combated corruption."

It's difficult to know where to begin in challenging such an ill-advised concept. Let's start with the glaringly obvious. Let's say I offer a bribe to an official to get a lucrative government contract, and the official accepts it. If I report the official, the official goes to jail, and I don't get the contract, but I'm free and clear. If I don't report the official, I do get the contract. So even if my original intent was to entrap the official, how tempted am I going to be to just keep my mouth shut and enjoy the good fortune of my lucrative government contract? Beyond all that, there is absolutely no incentive for me to refrain from at least trying to bribe the official, because if he refuses to accept it and reports me, I'm golden. After all, I was just doing my civic duty, trying to nail corrupt officials. I can try bribing somebody else. You think corruption in India is bad now? Try putting a policy like that in place.

 

But more to the point with respect to Murthy, a willingness to attempt to solve a problem by means of making an illegal activity permissible bespeaks a mindset that has to have permeated Infosys' corporate culture, given Murthy's stature in the company. Yes, doing something that's underhanded may not be pretty, the thinking would presumably go, but if you can do it and it solves your problem, then the end justifies the means. How big of a leap is it to conclude that it was the same institutionalized mindset that considered it permissible for B-1 visa holders to be sent to the United States to perform work that's illegal under the B-1, given that it saved the company so much time and so much money in fees and taxes associated with the proper H-1B visas?

 


There's something else that makes Murthy's advocacy of this idea particularly distasteful. It's that the idea centers around a dependence on whistleblowers to identify and report wrongdoing. You offer an official a bribe, the official accepts the bribe, and you blow the whistle on the official. The official goes to jail, and you have whistleblower protection.

 

The irony of the founding father of Infosys advocating such a plan is striking when you consider what's happened to Jay Palmer, the Infosys employee who believed that he would be protected by Infosys' whistleblower policy. His case has nothing to do with descending to the level of doing something underhanded to ensnare someone, as the idea advocated by Murthy would do. Palmer was simply a loyal employee who allegedly witnessed wanton and repeated illegal visa and tax activity at Infosys, and who filed a whistleblower complaint to expose the activity as he was advised to do. As a result, he has been ostracized, vilified, made to suffer serious financial hardship, and publicly branded as a liar by Infosys.

 

So, Mr. Murthy, I, for one, don't buy into the idea that you advocate. I do, however, buy into the idea that your advocacy of it speaks volumes about the company you're leaving on Saturday, and about your legacy as the person under whose watch all of this was allowed to happen.



Add Comment      Leave a comment on this blog post
Aug 15, 2011 1:14 AM sealTeam6 sealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6

I am stupid....don't bother reading my comments

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:17 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

From a business perspective this is brilliant.  Politician asks for bribe.  We gladly give bribe.  Now we can blackmail politician into doing whatever we ask because we didn't commit a crime, but the politician did.  He goes to jail, the company doesn't.

If you want corporations to have even more control over their government, this is how to do it.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:20 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Ah yeah the dogs have comes out... Should have known they would start the handle hijacking.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:21 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to R. Lawson

Don't we have this in place already....

Do you think real public is controlling the government ?

Corporates decide what taxes they want, what kind of visa they want, what kind of loop holes they want.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:22 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6

Ya...we should kick their a$$ asap...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:25 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6

Idiot...stop mocking my handle.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:27 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6

Ok just registered my handle. Wow I guess I really got the dogs riled up.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:32 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Now I am free from dogs...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:33 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Dump a$$ h$$$$ don't under how this registration in ITbusinessedge works...get lost

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:36 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6

Give it up. I've registered my handle to prevent DBs like you from doing what you have been doing. Now get lost.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 1:46 AM seal teams seal teams  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

I've registered my handle to prevent DBs like you from doing what you have been doing...Now you get lost and give up

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:13 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Yeah well, learn to spell.. anyone can see the page source and see your handle is not spelled right. Nice try though.  You guys are persistent. But you cannot fake the style and grammar 

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:16 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Now...no one can use my handle

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:17 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Funny....to see those fake handle gets exposed....I can't stop laughing...omg

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:27 AM seal teams seal teams  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

You guys are persistent. But you cannot fake the style and grammar 

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:35 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to seal teams

Nice try...still you are not close to my handle...;-)

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:43 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SeaLTeam6

Dude... give it up. How old are you. Mentally that is. Or in human years.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:49 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Why can't you just try different handle...you seem to be like 2yrs old crying for toys....which is not yours

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:51 AM Indian_tatti Indian_tatti  says: in response to SeaLTeam6

Now, this blog has been Hijacked by Slumdogas like IT by using American Id's.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 2:53 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SeaLTeam6

Address the content of the post. This inanity has gone on long enough. I think this just confirms the kind of people who condone/support Infosys' business practices. No wonder they have been sued.

Stick to the topic.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 3:01 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Hope these dogs learn how to post in forums/blogs...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 3:12 AM Indian tatti Indian tatti  says: in response to Indian_tatti

We have to teach those Slumdogas how to post something related to the topic of discussion...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 3:37 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to Indian_tatti

Understand guys...IT world leader declared 'Infosys is done'...

So, stop buying their stocks, apply for any job and also don't forget no project should be given to them.

If you don't understand that...you are doomed

Coward Don is just hitting the dead snake...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 4:21 AM American_Tatti American_Tatti  says:
Aug 15, 2011 4:40 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to American_Tatti

You might find this quote from that web site particularly appropriate:



"I love the app store reviewer diary, but the plodding, methodical, unthinking, rigid rules behavior? Classic Indian outsource work."

Can't fix stupid.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 4:53 AM Indian_tatti Indian_tatti  says: in response to American_Tatti

So, Frustrated Infosys Management has sent you here ...lol

How long do you think Infosys survive now...

Days Over...

GO to JAPAN>.... They will like ur fake resume.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 5:00 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to Indian_tatti

So, frustrated racist group sent you here....lol...

How long do you think racist can survive now....

Days Over...

Go to your mom's basement.....She will like ur fake monikers

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 5:02 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

It seems they won't stop without fixing it....

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 5:26 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Infosys might have to resort to using that bribing strategy to get the Indian Government off their backs. Weren't they handed a bill/fine close to $100 million  for unlawful tax evasion ?

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 5:28 AM me me  says: in response to Chamat

what makes you think I have not been a loyal employee. Really. You dont know me or anything about me. I will not sit here and quote my resume or my achievements, but I will tell you it took me 9 months to get an attorney and file a lawsuit. This after Infosys paying me a miniumn bonus during this time. 100% billable, not allowed to take vactaion, and runinng 2-3 pursuits at any time. You have no idea how loyal and dedicated I have been. My friend, I have nothing to hide. I have lost my career over this and all my friends at Infosys are not allowed to talk to me.I am black balled in the industry and I do not regret a damn thing. That is why I want a trial and I expect you to be here and watch! You need to know this has become personal after Infosys promised me protection. You do not know what my family had endured. So for you to think I have not been a model employee and put up with a lot of things, well your wrong.. The diffrence between myself and others is I refused to take it anymore.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 5:37 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to me

I have a feeling that some of the vile trolls here are smaller outsourcing companies who probably have no love for Infosys except that this lawsuit will bring them under the spotlight too. So in that sense they care about what happens when your lawsuit goes to trial.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:11 AM hireamerica hireamerica  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

This is the dumbest argument you had posted so far...

"I have a feeling that some of the vile trolls here are smaller outsourcing companies who probably have no love for Infosys except that this lawsuit will bring them under the spotlight too."

No one has any love for Infosys than their employees and  share holders...this lawsuit is on Infosys and it has nothing to do with any other company in US. Every agency in federal knows there is abuse going in using Visa and Palmer case has nothing to do with their actions/incations.

"So in that sense they care about what happens when your lawsuit goes to trial. "

Another dump statement!!! You may have forgot to take your medications...otherwise you can't be this stupid....commenting here has no effect on Palmer case...if you belive otherwise then sorry to wake you from your dream.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:12 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to me

".I am black balled in the industry and I do not regret a damn thing. "

You may be blackballed in the Indian Outsourcing industry, but I suspect you would be welcome many places in IT - including consulting.

Suggest looking at joining a firm branding themselves as an American IT consulting firm.  Your liability with Indian firms would be an asset in that type of firm.

Also, after the legal battles are over you should consider authoring or perhaps co-authoring a book detailing your experience. 

There were certainly disadvantages to taking legal action, but I think you could parlay this into something else.  Now that Infosys essentially called you a liar in a very public way, I really hope this sees a jury because this is transitioned from a case of attacking a whistle-blower to defamation.  If I were on that Alabama jury (and you proved your case) I would be wanting punitive action.

Before replying to my post, please consult your attorney.  Letting your attorney speak for you is probably a wise decision.  I'm a bit surprised you are commenting.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:21 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to me

I wish you all the best and safe life. Please refrain from commenting in public till the case get its logical conclusion. Each and every word from you valued a lot now than before. Please remember your comments (any words possible) will end up used by Infosys to defame you further to get the outcome they wanted.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:28 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to R. Lawson

FYI - I don't think it's Palmer. Don had previously deleted posts from this handle.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:33 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to hireamerica

Seal Team6 is right on!!!

The vile trolls ARE smaller outsourcing companies. They never have their own clients, and supply resources to the top tier consulting companies like Infosys, Accenture etc. They are probably now worried their meal ticket will be gone for good :P

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:34 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to hire american

If that is the case, the post was very convincing (written from what I suspect his perspective may be). 

I registered my moniker just in case.  Wouldn't want some low-life pretending to be me stirring up trouble.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:40 AM Only Only  says: in response to Roy Lawson

special people with a attitude get the special treatment. As long as anyone stay away from racial, stereotyping and affending comment there are fine...

Hint: Registering will not prevent anyone from using your handle...it is the how itbusinessedge designed for.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:44 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to hire american

Another dump....no one can do consulting on H1 or any other visa in US. Even consulting is allowed no company with business sense tie-up with top-tire consulting companies like Infosys, Accenture...You know what...they don't pay even $45/hr (but charge their client $100/hr)...which is worthless when there are companies paying $65/hr -75/hr where consulting company can earn and share some to the consultant.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:48 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to hireamerican

I see it everyday......bodyshops providing resources to top tier consulting companies...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 6:53 AM It was It was  says: in response to hire american

history...no more consulting available for H1 unless they consulting company owns the project and have authority to hire and fire anyone in the project. There are tons of cases got denied H1 or getting no more approval based on above directions.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:02 AM India_taati India_taati  says: in response to SeaLTeam6

Indian Hero, tell me what are you doing in America

you are a Hindu and should not even think of American Jobs.

Go back pls.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:08 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to India_taati

Who said I am Indian and Hindu....both are wrong...try again....

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:09 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to me

You have provided information that Senators, top-Beurocrats, and senior Administration officials could not obtain.  And for that, everyone, including probably a lot of current and future employees and customers of InfoSys will be in your debt.

And I for one, have no problem with knowing this information ASAP.  And I am very grateful we have a free-press in this country, that can get us information, other seem unable to obtain. 

And some on this board seem to be very afraid of.

The public has a right to know how the Visa are being used, because Visas are public policy, InfoSys and the other IT companies have been doing everything they can to keep that information out of the public eye.

Our eyes are open now.

Being asked to do illegal things can get a person in a lot of trouble, so your motivation seems very correct.  And it seems you were very restrained and gave your employer a very reasonable amount of time to correct the problem internally.

I think a lot of the trolling is just vain response to counter this stark reality.

I hope everything will turn out all-right. 

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:10 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to It was

Nope. I am seeing them right now...right this minute.....right in front of me....in a top 5 consulting company....they are contractors via a body shop!

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:13 AM Nope Nope  says: in response to hire american

you are a liar...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:23 AM Here Here  says: in response to hire american

is the memo released on Jan 2010...

www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Laws/Memoranda/2010/H1B%20Employer-Employee%20Memo010810.pdf

Anyone goes for H1 extension, entering US, New stampting are getting validated for this memo and there are some cases where resource stopped entering US on the ground of this memo.

If the consulting company can demonstrate that they can meet the above rules the can get stamping/new visa/extension.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:25 AM More More  says: in response to Here

information on how it gets implemented by immigration attorney....

www.murthy.com/news/n_e-erel.html

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:34 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to More

As long as the bodyshop says that they have weekly phone calls with the resource working at a third party site, it satisfies USCIS requirement of contro,l and they are good to go. It is that easy :P

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:36 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Nope

LOL....What else can you say :P

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:38 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

A excerpt from Gene Quinn, a patent attorney and law professor's web site IPWatchDog.com

Outsourcing to India: National Security Subversion & Job Loss

do you really believe that those in India are concerned with U.S. intellectual property laws?  Workers move from company to company to company all within a span of months and all because they can earn an extra dollar an hour somewhere else.  Are they segregated from working on issues where they have worked for competitors previously?  Of course not.

Lack of respect of intellectual property rights seems widespread in India.  So not only does outsourcing violate the Export Administration Regulations, not only does it circumvent 35 U.S.C. 181, but there is no culture of respect of rights.

ipwatchdog.com/2011/01/05/outsourcing-to-india-national-security-subversion-job-loss/id=14256/

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:41 AM Here is Here is  says: in response to More

example effect of the memo...

cyrusmehta.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-uscis-memo-on-employer-employee.html

"It is then no surprise that the outrageous singling out of Indians since the New Year waiting in the line at Newark and other airports by CBP officials is the result of the Neufeld Memo that may have filtered through CBP officialdom but not the public until January 13, 2010. On one fateful day, January 11, 2010, when Continental Airlines Flight 49 landed in Newark from Mumbai, India, we know that CBP officer Matt McGirr and his colleagues, hunted through the lines for Indian H-1B workers even before they showed up for primary inspection. Their minds were made up. No detailed questions were asked. The moment they found Indian H-1B workers who uttered that they were working at a client site in the IT field, their fates were sealed. They were subjected to expedited removal orders and sent back to India. Some were luckier and escaped the ER order, but still had to withdraw their applications for admission to the U.S. Nevertheless, they were all coerced into making statements under threat of being detained. CBP officials also made remarks as to why the H-1B workers, singled out for deportation, earned more than U.S. workers and should not be paid so much. The consequence of expedited removal is a 5 year bar from entering the U.S. It is hoped that higher and saner officials within CBP will realize that these ER orders were unwarranted and trampled upon the civil rights of Indian workers, erase them and allow them to continue to contribute their skills and expertise, which in turn benefit U.S. corporations."

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:52 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to Here is

"Their minds were made up. No detailed questions were asked. The moment they found Indian H-1B workers who uttered that they were working at a client site in the IT field, their fates were sealed. They were subjected to expedited removal orders and sent back to India."

The only thing inappropriate about this is that the change wasn't communicated properly, preventing a wasted flight.  Outplacement firms should not be permitted to use the H-1b visa program.  Of all the sponsors of H-1b visas they are by far the most corrupted organizations and they provide the least benefit to the American people.  These companies are in the business of sending good jobs offshore. 

That is a perfectly valid business for Indian companies to be in, however my nation's immigration, trade, and currency policy should not be structured in a way supporting that model.  We need to always consider our national interests first and foremost.  Having a robust IT and engineering workforce is certainly in our national interest.  I'm all for global competition, but don't expect me to tip the table in your favor.

If Infosys, Wipro, Tata, or any of the other body shops wish to do business in the United States they should hire American workers.  That's the bottom line.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 7:53 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Ya...right person to speak about oursourcing,

He is crying because his job is on chopping line....so he will try/cry as loud as possible. There is no credibility in his pocket....

Patent breaking cases are high in US why....does these lawyers leak patent information to otherside ? If not there should be zero patent related cases in US.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:11 AM Did Did  says: in response to Roy Lawson

I missed something here ?

How come H1b become offshoring visa ? If you say B1 is offshoring vis then ya I can agree with you.

This is perfectly valid visa in US (not only valid business for Indian Companies)...if this needs a change then why blame those companies which use those visa instead of blaming the law.

When compared to B1 and L1, H1b is far better and safe visa...

H1b person work here in US, pay all taxes, spend money here in US, salary is controled by law (which needs fix), salary is declared before hand, gets reviews every 3yrs no matter what...brings in money in different forms (filing fee, renewal fee, border security fee, training fee, fraud reduction fee., etc).

More harder to get h1 more abuse you see in other visas (doesn't mean stop h1...instead control other visas)...low salary is the issue then simply increase the minimum salary(which will resolve most of the problem)...and add restriction on recruit Citizen first before asking for alien...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:25 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to Did

"How come H1b become offshoring visa ? If you say B1 is offshoring vis then ya I can agree with you."

I am speaking politics on the H-1b, not law.  Indian offshoring companies are the top sponsors of H-1b visas.  The top 20 H-1b sponsoring companies are primarily from India and primarily engaged in offshore outsourcing.

"This is perfectly valid visa in US (not only valid business for Indian Companies)"

Legally you can gain sponsorship on the H-1b visa, come to the United States, work for an Indian firm that sends American work offshore, replace a qualified American worker, and smile all the way to the bank. 

As an American I don't believe that foreign firms or any firm using the program to outsource or offshore jobs should be entitled to the program.  Foreign firms with American operations should hire American workers at their American operations.  The L-1 visa is an executive visa that should be used

You are correct in the law if you believe that it is (usually) illegal to work on the B-1 and it is (usually) legal to work on the H-1b. 

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:27 AM And And  says: in response to Roy Lawson

did you really see only the flight cost is at stake here!!!

If you can't see beyond the flight cost then I doubt you can think through any issue in a deep enough to give right solution. Let me list some for you,

1) You lose the job right away.

2) You don't have job waiting in his/her home country

3) House lease will be active and they have to pay till the end of lease. If they own a house then it is even worse.

4) Kids schools are in middle and they can't get any documentation to continue back home.

5) All the non-movable asserts left in home is there but no one to takecare.

6) All their important documents gets struck in thier home in US.

there are are lot more..but those are very serious issue right after deportation. Unfortunately illegal immigrants goes through full legal course where as legal immigrants won't.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:35 AM Please don't feed the TROLLs Please don't feed the TROLLs  says: in response to And

Let's stop the TROLLs on this blog dead in their tracks.  Reacting to their maddening comments is EXACTLY what they want.

Cut off their air supply. Ignore them. 

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:40 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Please don't feed the TROLLs

I strongly encourage the following of this advice.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:42 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to And

It really depends on the situation.  Clearly those with families here and with houses will be more impacted than junior level workers fresh out of college.  I wasn't implying that there wasn't a pain to be felt. 

I am implying that Americans currently in our country feeling the pains of this terrible economic environment should not be forced to compete with even more workers at a time like this.

Let me turn the tables.  Do you feel that you deserve to get an H-1b visa, replace an American worker (who may train you to do their job), and then assist a foreign company in sending more jobs offshore?  Do you think that during a time when so many Americans are out of work it is appropriate to import more workers from other countries? 

Americans are here for the long haul.  Temporary visa programs designed to fill shortages are clearly not appropriate right now.  It just makes no sense.  Imagine if I showed up in India and the tables were turned!

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:45 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to Don Tennant

Agreed.  BP will surely come down if I ignore the trolls.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:46 AM Again Again  says: in response to Roy Lawson

your are not 100% right...

Rank     H1B Visa Sponsor

1     Microsoft

2     IBM

3     Infosys Technologies

4     Deloitte Consulting

5     Fujitsu Laboratories OF America

6     Cognizant Technology Solutions

7     Patni Americas

8     CVS Pharmacy

9     Qualcomm

10     Larsen Toubro Infotech

11     Intel

12     Wipro

13     Goldman Sachs

14     Oracle

15     Barclays Capital

16     Google

17     Hewlett Packard

18     National Institutes Of Health, Hhs

19     UST Global

20     Tata Consultancy Services

figure out yourself where offshoring companies stand.

"Legally you can gain sponsorship on the H-1b visa, come to the United States, work for an Indian firm that sends American work offshore, replace a qualified American worker, and smile all the way to the bank.  "

If you don't understand current status you are really out of reality...

Consulting company use remote training for offshoring and use B1 (which doesn't required to pay US salary) for training. H1b is used only when client need their resources to be here in US. It is cheaper for them to get the work done offshore than getting a resource to US.

"As an American I don't believe that foreign firms or any firm using the program to outsource or offshore jobs should be entitled to the program.  Foreign firms with American operations should hire American workers at their American operations.  The L-1 visa is an executive visa that should be used"

Good choice but do you think it is easy to implement? Just say if your option has become law...all you see is new companies registered and visa will be received through them and have a tie-up with the parent company. L1 visa is worst visa you can ask them to use...reasons

1) No minimum salary requirement

2) Cannot change job

3) No limit on number of visas.

4) Very much replace American citizens without any problem and get another resource after 5yrs and keep playing this game for ever.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 8:57 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Again

The Desi outsourcing companies use bodyshop H1bs so their rankings will be lower :P

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:23 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to hire american

These are annual figures (I assume from 2010, since no source was cited).  The 2006 and 2009 figures have Indian companies topping the list.  Perhaps the increased fees sent them towards illegally using the L-1 visa. 

They don't have fewer workers here than in 2006 and 2009, so logic dictates that they found some other route.  My guess would be the B-1 and if that is true this scandal is bigger than anyone can imagine.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:33 AM Source Source  says: in response to Roy Lawson

www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/Top-Visa-Sponsor-2011.aspx

you are right...their route is L1...cheaper, safer, less verification, no number restriction, blanket approval process (you don't have to tell to whom and which location).

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:36 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Roy, In the Indian offices of outsourcing companies, B1 visa is the defacto visa for short term assignments.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:40 AM Nope Nope  says: in response to hire american

They have cheaper option to get resources than from bodyshop...reason...

Minimum rate is $45/hr which turns out to be $93k/yr+ overtime payment.

If you get a resource in L1 you can pay $50k/yr there is $43k/yr difference...

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:42 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Source

We are turning blue discussing these visa issues, but the fact of the matter is, the US government condones these practices. The government does not care about the American people anymore.

The two political party system is not working at all.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:45 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Nope

What about overheads like health insurance etc that are in addition to the L1's salary?

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:46 AM yep yep  says: in response to hire american

B1 is always for short term and there is really interest benefit out of it...

1) Used as carrot for retain a resource (with attrition rate around 20%).

2) Huge profit margin (in this case $35/hr..which is $35k for 6months) but pay $7k -$12k in home country.

3) Resource has to sign minimum 6months - 1yr bond...if they leave the company has to pay huge amount as penalty.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:52 AM What What  says: in response to hire american

health insurce ???? you may get that but resource will cover most part...hardly company has major expenses...worst case they pay $5k - $10k in additional expenses...still it is $30k in savings...

See...I used word savings when compared to using contractor...thing about the hourly rate they charge the client...at the least it starts from $65/hr...which is around $135k/yr....

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 9:57 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Nope

You seem to exaggerating company earnings and but salary paid...L1 doesn't have any minimum salary requirement but $50k/yr doesn't go with what a person can live with in US.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:03 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to What

Things are a bit more complicated.....

Workers that make less than 60K will count toward the H1b dependant employer percentages, so bodyshop employees are hired so they can be paid less than 60k.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:07 AM It is It is  says: in response to hire american

legally used..like using CPA to file your tax....you will be guided legally to make most out of the business...no inqury will find any fault.

Politics has bigger issue (election) to handle in next 18months than stupid immigration issue which hardly affect them...

They have to stand with corporates who can pay them for the election expenses than people who hardly pays in hundreds...and they have to cast their vote to one or the other.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:14 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to hire american

I meant B-1, not L-1. 

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:15 AM You are You are  says: in response to hire american

wrong....employees count and salary on L1 is not counted on defining H1 dependent company...even it gets defined (which is not) they required to pay $2k more...which is peanut. Their Immigration attorney knows how to find legal loop hole (nothing illegal is allowed here..because it cost them more if get caught)

H1B Dependency definition:

Companies with 25 or fewer full-time equivalent (FTE) employees in the U.S. are considered H1B dependent if they employ eight or more H1B nonimmigrants.

Companies with 26-50 FTE employees in the U.S. are considered H1B dependent if they employee 13 or more H1B workers.

Companies with 51 or more FTE employees working in the U.S. are categorized as H1B dependent if 15 percent or more of their total full-time equivalent employees hold H1B status.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:17 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

The bottom line for businesses is "The end justifies the means". Bribery, coercion, lying etc are all perfectly acceptable arrows in their quiver of weapons. Just don't get caught. Or if you do, cry "racism", "protectionism", "discrimination". And let loose your Dogs of Words to spam the boards. Cue to that now.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:26 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

So what exactly do Microsoft et al gain by sending work to India ? Here's what their own CTO said a few years ago:


What Ails India's Software Engineers

'India does not produce enough good computer engineers and those it does are good at theory but not very well equipped to handle the practical aspects.'-- Microsoft Chief Technical Officer Craig Mundie

India's software engineers can work cheaply and quickly, but when it comes to quality, industry experts are unanimous in their opinion: Few Indian software engineers are probing new frontiers, raising the bar or exploring new horizons.

Retired engineering professor K S Madhavan says research and development in engineering has been in a state of decline in the last few decades because of the poor state of affairs in India's colleges.

But, the quality of Indian engineers is questionable, says Madhavan, who has had a career spanning four decades and is now advisor to several engineering colleges in Karnataka and Kerala.

www.rediff.com/money/2005/nov/28bspec.htm

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 10:38 AM Chamat Chamat  says:

"Palmer was simply a loyal employee who allegedly witnessed wanton and repeated illegal visa and tax activity at Infosys, and who filed a whistleblower complaint to expose the activity as he was advised to do."

Where has this been proved?? Its only in this blog where this is assumed. Also what was immediate need of deleting the whistleblower's comment from your last blog when he called spade a spade (read Jhonson Control)?

P.S you may delete this as well if you are uncomfortable with it.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:00 AM Drifter Drifter  says: in response to Chamat

I thought he (Jay) and his lawyer submitted sworn testimony to congress and as well they have internal evidence to support their claims? That should be enough to prove it...

'Where has this been proved' - I don't understand what you mean.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:08 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says:

As I stressed in my post, he is not advocating making bribery legal. He is advocating making bribe-giving legal as a means of catching corrupt officials who accept bribes. That said, it is my view that advocating the legalization of bribe-giving is disgusting and a very bad idea for the reasons I outlined in my post.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:10 AM Chamat Chamat  says:

@ Dolores -- these are just opinions and we all know the difference between a small time blogger Vs an entrepreneur. Here the information provided is filtered and highly adulterated to suit blogger's opinion. If not then what was the reason when a whistleblower commented with the client name and other details in Don's previous blog then Don immediately deleted them? There are so many offensive comments in his blog but he never delete them saying he hate to delete any comment but when there was a pure form of information he didn't think twice before deleting them.

@ Drifter-that is not called as proof when its one sided. It will be proved when it will come from a court where both parties will participate.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:17 AM SeaLTeam6 SeaLTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Fraud activity seems to there in all areas of US....last week it was in High School...now in our Navy...

When the Navy discovered an exam-cheating ring aboard one of its submarines, it swiftly fired the commanding officer and kicked off 10 percent of the crew.

Navy officials describe the case aboard the USS Memphis as a rare lapse in integrity, but some former officers say the shortcuts exposed by the scandal are hardly unique to a single vessel.

The former submariners tell The Associated Press it is not uncommon for sailors to receive answer keys or other hints before training exams. They say sailors know how to handle the nuclear technology, but commanders competing with one another to show proficiency have made tests so difficult - and so detached from the skills sailors actually need - that crew members sometimes bend the rules.

An investigation report obtained by the AP through a Freedom of Information Act request describes an atmosphere aboard the USS Memphis that tolerated and even encouraged cheating: Sailors were emailed the answers before qualification exams, took tests outside the presence of proctors and openly asked officers for answer keys. One sailor told investigators that test-takers were encouraged to "use their time wisely" during breaks, insinuating that they should look up answers to exam questions.

news.yahoo.com/ap-enterprise-exam-cheating-scandal-hits-navy-sub-200819130.html

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:24 AM Drifter Drifter  says: in response to Chamat

Okay but - let's say for example that Infosys is innocent. With all of the negative press in the media, why wouldn't they produce some supportive proof of their own to counter the claims - instead of calling someone a liar? That's all we've seen thus far; or have I missed something? It is one sided, but what is Infosys doing to balance it?

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:27 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to You are

www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/h1b.htm

Additional rules apply to employers who are dependent upon H-1B workers or are willful violators of the H-1B rules. An H-1B dependent employer is, generally, one whose H-1B workers comprise 15 percent or more of the employer's total workforce. Different thresholds apply to smaller employers. H-1B dependent employers who wish to hire only H-1B workers who are paid at least $60,000 per year or have a master's degree or higher in a specialty related to the employment, can be exempted from these additional rules.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:30 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to SeaLTeam6

Well...these guys put their lives at stake to defend the country....You are not even qualified to say the word 'Navy' :P

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:42 AM You are You are  says: in response to hire american

right about the law...but those won't applicable when the company use L1, it is not even reviewed as deep as H1 by USCIS , DOL & DHS.

Small consulting companies all fall under H1 dependent category no matter how hard they try...because they don't have citizens who can work for them, simple reason is citizen can work on W2 and get every penny from the client but H1 resource need a employer to work on any place (before 2010). You can see there was steep decrease in H1b usage the moment Employee-Employer relationship memo got implemented.

L1 as mostly suggested in place of H1 to avoid tons of issues comes with H1.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 11:53 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to Drifter

Here you have to understand that Infosys is an organization who is doing a business and not an individual who is full time involved in this case. They will provide their side of evidence only in the court. Is there any requirement to provide it to press? Infy has nothing to do with you, me or Don and they will be least bothered to prove anything to us.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 12:06 PM hireamerica hireamerica  says:

Murthy said legalize 'giving bribes' only. He did not say legalize 'taking bribes'. The dynamics in India justify his stand to help stop corruption. This is a non issue as far as US and the Palmer case.

NEXT!!!

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 12:16 PM Drifter Drifter  says: in response to Chamat

The court of public opinion is a very powerful tool; it would benefit Infosys to ensure it's reputation and public perception are in the best light possible. This is why they have an entire marketing department - to sell the company and it's reputation to potential clients. So - requirement, legally? No. But from an image standpoint, it would only help them.

If Jay was some crackpot spouting off in blogs about what he had seen without anything to back it up, it clearly would be reason to ignore it by marginalizing it. This case has federal attention however.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 12:18 PM iPhone_rocks iPhone_rocks  says: in response to hireamerica

Now you are talking, my friend. This guy, Don, must be reaching for any non-sense to get more hits to his blog. But he is winning and laughing all the way to the bank.

What happened to our Jay Palmer issue?

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 12:35 PM Indian_tatti Indian_tatti  says: in response to Chamat

Evidence?

Are they going to provide the visa fraud evidence by themselves.

You are too funny!!!

Infosys is done.

Understand that.

Reply
Aug 15, 2011 12:59 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Drifter

So far Infosys has lost 2 sexual harassment cases , lost an age discrimination lawsuit, has another discrimination lawsuit pending (or has that been settled too ?). Have they actually won any in US courts ? I'm curious.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 1:16 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to who knows

Sara, at the very minimum work should be on projects internal to the company.  It doesn't take special training for the DOL or USCIS to determine if work is internal or external.  And we have a hotline to call if we become aware of L-1 workers being placed on third party projects.

This isn't rocket science, yet everyone wants to make it more complicated than it really is.  If your work is billable to a third party, there's your sign.  You aren't really here to complete some internal proprietary project - no you are here to work for a client and bill for those hours.  You are a worker, not a manager or person with unique proprietary skills.

Personally I think the L-2 should be abolished since clearly this is just to hard for people to comprehend.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 1:24 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Tools that are unique to the company are being claimed to be unique knowledge. The proprietary tools can be anything - it could be an Excel sheet to do something menial :P.

Besides, once the resource is on US soil, no one monitors if they are in fact using said prorietary tools.I have seen L1s do administrative tasks like updating project plans, perform routine database maintenance,tracking timesheets etc.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 1:41 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to hire american

I use to work in the same office where we had dozens of Infosys employees, some on the L-1 visa and some on the H-1b.  This was at Publix (a grocery chain in the south-east) about 7-8 years ago.  Then the L-1 was tightened so that L-1 workers couldn't work on a client site and miraculously jobs came back.

I've told this story before, but one of the employees showed me his paystub - came out to roughly $7k a year or about what a part-time McDonalds employee would earn.  He was a business analyst working for Infosys here in Florida, working at a third party site and being managed by a third party company.  He was a room-mate with some of the other guys and they had absolutely no proprietary knowledge prior to their arrival.

This is exactly the type of wage-depressing business and immigration practices I expect my government to protect me from.  At the time, to my knowledge neither Publix nor Infosys were even breaking the law.  That's what I find most incredible!

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 1:44 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Just to clarify - Publix was the "3rd party site and company".  Infosys was simply billing for his time and paying his salary.  They were the "wall" between Publix - so if you searched the LCA database that worker would show up under Infosys and not Publix.  They get cheap labor, and none of the nasty political side effects that come with discriminating against Americans.  Unless you were at the corporate office, you would have no idea what was going on.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 1:48 AM Madagasper Madagasper  says:

I have always been amused at the reverence accorded to Murthy in India.  The man has never had an original thought.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 2:18 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Roy, I agree to your points but disagree on the details DOL or USCIS get to see on those visas.

"This isn't rocket science, yet everyone wants to make it more complicated than it really is.  If your work is billable to a third party, there's your sign.  You aren't really here to complete some internal proprietary project - no you are here to work for a client and bill for those hours.  You are a worker, not a manager or person with unique proprietary skills."

I am not sure your point is valid in terms of how USCIS validates the visa request. I am not arguing for any L1 misuse, all I am trying to do is share my understanding which may or may not be correct.

Lets say Infosys have a banking product which got developed offshore and it got sold to company X in US. Now Infosys need to have their team of people to come here (to US) to make tons of changes to meet the client requirement (every banking process changes) which will be charged by number of hours worked by the resources.

In this case any person with programming language many not able to do the job, it could be performed only by the resources who where part of the company and has knowledge on where and how to change the code to meet the requirement. Ultimately he does code change in programming language but still it is proprietary code/product. I don't see how a customization of product should be non-billable task.

Again this is how most company apply for L1 saying the need of internal resource in US. Here do you think USCIS can validate the real expertise of resource knowledge in the product. At times company may claim they are sending resources for implementing Product X for Client Y where as in reality they never work anything related to Product X.

Most of the time Client don't even question on which visa the resource is working in their office and what they get paid (as salary or allowance) and they don't have any information on what basis (even the client never bought their Product X on the first place) they got L1.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 2:21 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Roy Lawson

All this is possible because there is no liability for the client in which those resources work, just add their (end client) skin as part of game then you will see big difference in the usage pattern.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 4:04 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to who knows

Sara I agree that end clients shouldn't be able to hide behind the cloak of a third party contractor.  That said, so long as consulting firms are using the program they either need to be subjected to intense scrutiny or outright barred from the L-2.

The problem is that the benefit (meeting corporate claims of shortages) does not outweigh the cost.  Corporations haven't established shortages, and even if they have the programs aren't used to fill these niche shortages.  As such, temporary worker programs are used to subsidize the general labor market - most especially in IT.  The cost is that we are losing American jobs and seeing our earning potential reduced.  It just isn't worth that trade-off.

It's clear that companies have no intention of following the spirit of the law and instead are leveraging every loophole they can find to game the system and avoid paying premium (domestic) wages. 

The bottom line is that it will cost way more than it is worth to police these companies, and the fact that they must be policed in the first place is problematic.  The best solution is to simply phase out all guest worker programs.  Corporations have proven that they aren't responsible or ethical enough to have any role in the immigration process.

We get caught in this endless loop of "if only we fix this one thing" our problems will go away.  But they never do.

Corporate motives don't align with what our national immigration motives should be.  Immigration should not be about corporate profits.  It should be about building a stronger nation and welcoming people who share some fundamental values.  So long as corporations have their thumb on the program, immigration will be driven by greed, not national interest.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 4:16 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Roy Lawson

This is very true. Having corporations control immigration policy is like having McDonald's or Reynold's Tobacco setting national health and diet guidelines. The very nature of the beast so to speak is in direct conflict with the wider scope and social implications of the immigration and employment environment in the US.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 6:26 AM Mahakalayata Mahakalayata  says:

You are biased. Period. I am not saying there are no errors on Infosys's side. But your preaching is like the proverbial cat that ate a 100 mice but proclaims itself holy. Jealousy is your driver and maybe insecurity.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 6:54 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Mahakalayata

Perhaps you are right.....but the bottomline is, Americans need to have a fair chance to compete for jobs in their own country!!!!

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 8:26 AM hire american hire american  says:

Per this article, over 90% of employees of Indian outsourcing companies in US are on L-1/H-1B visas.

www.business-standard.com/india/news/ishigh-margin-story-over-for-indian-it-firms/446045/

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 10:07 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to hire american

I'm biased also in favor of American workers.  It's not something to be ashamed of.  It's a necessity.

Within these borders I believe we should be considerate of our foreign guests but at the end of the day we need to put our people first.  There comes a time when we must ask guests to leave. 

When I have guests over at my home, I've never asked a guest to leave.  They seem to have the good grace to know when it is time.  In this economy it's time for our guest workers to remember that they are in fact guests and to leave in a manner that they will be welcome back one day.  Good guests never put their hosts in a position where they must ask them to leave.

Behave as if you were in someone's home and be considerate of the household.  Currently our household is partially unemployed and we are not ready for guests, or at least those who also want jobs here.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 10:28 AM Only Only  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

need will define the usage of any program...

As of today "Wells Fargo to test $3 a month debit card fee"...know why they started this..."Federal Reserve implemented a cap on the fees banks can charge retailers every time customers swipe their debit cards." full story...@ money.cnn.com/2011/08/16/pf/debit_card_fee/?iref=NS1

Government can try all tricks in the name of public benefit/safety...but at the end only corporates decide who wins...and for sure they do whatever it takes to win because ...there money at risk which worth more than anything....

Lawson...you seem to dislike corporates...well how about you start a big company and show your national interest...by recruiting only US citizens with starting pay of $150k/yr for fresher graduates and $250k/yr for experienced people.

When you stand on the ground with your legs..it will be very easy to guide someone to walk on the rope...when you try...you know what it takes even to put a single step.

Corporates always align their interest on profits that's how it can pay you big salary otherwise they will pay everyone $9/hr with full of national interest/love in it.

They can give jobs to every single citizen in US and only to US citizensprovided everyone (US citizen) agrees to get paid $9/hr no matter what expertise they have....are you guys ready

How is that possible to pay you $100k/yr -150k/yr but charge client very less (otherwise they don't give any project) and also make sure they do national service.What kind of logic you are speaking...do you think US people can eat your IT projects?Or did you forget that IT was supposed to be add-on service or to improve the performance of any main services.

You are speaking for a million or two IT employees..whereas there are 300million in US.Any cost increase in IT services will affect other costs associated with it...just an increasing in cost of IT services by 10% will have ripple effect .every corporate will increase their goods cost by 15% and whole sale retailer will increase their cost to 17% and end retailer will increase the cost to 20%.All for what...just to get 10k - 25k news jobs and 10 - 20% salary increase for 2millions...and you want all 300million Americans to pay 20% extra on everything for this.

You never bother about what happen to Housing sector, manufacturing sector, auto industry and financial sector...what will you suggest getting job for those people who lost their jobs in those sectors? When IT unemployment rate is @ 4.5% you are crying this muchwhere as other sectors face on average of 20% unemployment4 times that of ITohyou are going to look on those big issues after you bring that 4.5% to 2% or after Infosys got heavy penalty of $10million.

Do you think your suggestion will get 20k or 30k jobs?Who will give jobs for rest of 14millions?All your suggestions are self-centered and have nothing to do with national interestall you want is heavy demand for your jobs so that you can get start earning huge money in short period.

One and only solution to end all problem is END FREE TRADE and END ALL STUPID WARS....which was started by US with guidance from big corporates to earn more from developing countries...and they did earned but they never told anyone about the side effects..which is what all developed nations facing now. Reply

Aug 16, 2011 10:28 AM Only Only  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6
All they told was we can sell our project and offer than immigration Visa which mostly won't qualified to even applybut in reality immigrants flooded all developed nations and also took control of corporates..

And to escape for corporate greed you want government to take control of all aspect of immigrations ????

At least you can question corporates for their greed...if it was government that will take 2 generations to get any answers and will take 3 generations to fix any single issue.All it can help is sink faster and no hope of reaching the shore.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 11:21 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Roy,

You have missed some of the basic differences between the guest worker program and guest at home your home.

Here is what guest at home gets,

You invite your guest and you take the responsibility of everything (most of the time) like stay, food @ your home, some outing and will be treated equally as family member.

Guest worker

No citizen is allowed to invite any guest worker.

Government doesn't invite any guest worker rather it gave permission to companies to invite guest worker with pre-defined set of rules.

Companies invite guest worker and they have every right to send them back whenever they feel appropriate not the government (as long as companies play by those rules).

Jobs (which is must to come here) provided by the company sponsoring the visa (not from anyone else), rest is same as all other citizens with restrictions below,

1)     Should be in Job all the time.

2)     Spouse cannot work (except on L2).

3)     Pay all taxes like any other citizens.

4)     Pay SS tax but you may or may not get back (you need to work at least 10yrs to be eligible).

5)     Eligible to stay as agreed with government and the companycan get extension if company needs you morestill max limit is set even for extension. If the company wanted the resource permanently then there is set of rules to have them permanently.

6)     Driving license will be restricted to your Visa eligibility dateif you struck with USICIS for any reason you may not drive till you resolve that and lot more

You forget they are not machines with zero emotions to play with, they are real humans with/without family and for many there is lot at stack than what you can see.

Guest workers cannot stay more than 6yrs (on H1), 5yrs(on L1) and 6months (on B1), it is up to the company to decide how long they need the resource.

You can implement different restrictions on new applications but any attempt to kill the existing people would harm lot more than what you would imagine.

I would suggest to keep everyone already in US into consideration before implementing anything because they are not the reason for current unemployment problem.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 11:33 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Good guests never put their hosts in a position where they must ask them to leave.

"Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days." -- Benjamin Franklin

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 11:40 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to who knows

This is why you will never assimilate into American culture!!! You have no idea how people here think!!!!

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 11:47 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to who knows

SaraR, of course there are differences.  I was speaking abstractly and on principal - and using a parallel to communicate my point.

"You forget they are not machines with zero emotions to play with, they are real humans with/without family and for many there is lot at stack than what you can see."

I have not forgotten that.  Everyone in this world has family, emotions, and are real human beings and we should treat everyone humanely.  I would absolutely oppose a gestapo-like roundup and mass deportation.  I would suggest honoring all current H-1b visas and to give a 1-year instead of 3 year extension so that they have time to get their affairs in order.  If the worker has a pending permanent residency application, I would continue 1-year extensions until that reaches a conclusion.  And yes, they (the government) needs to speed up that process.  Either approve or deny a person, but don't leave them in limbo for years.

"Guest workers cannot stay more than 6yrs (on H1), 5yrs(on L1) and 6months (on B1), it is up to the company to decide how long they need the resource."

H1 is a 3 year, renewable for another 3 years.  Since we have in the past rubber stamped the 3 year renewal I wouldn't simply revoke the 3 year visa coming up for renewal, and instead give them another year with a clear message that this is the last one.

L1 is not a working visa.  It is a managerial visa and some companies have been creative in how they define "manager".  In my view if you are writing code or administering a system, you are not a manager.  We need to strictly police that, and add prevailing - no strike that - MARKET wage requirements.  We need to make sure that only senior level managers and executives are using this visa and that their duties are that of a true manager.

B1 is most certainly not a working visa, so that visa isn't a concern to me so long as it is being used as intended.

"You can implement different restrictions on new applications but any attempt to kill the existing people would harm lot more than what you would imagine."

That's a mis-characterization of my view on this matter.  I assume you meant "kill" in the figurative and not literal sense and even that goes too far.  I think my solution is reasonable and considerate of our human guests.

Can we at least agree that future H-1b admissions - until the economy improves - should be halted?

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 11:59 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Only

Hmmm...who needs banks? Do your banking at a Credit union!!!

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 12:01 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:



Curious case of India's unemployable engineers

Complaints that the overwhelming majority of science and engineering graduates churned out by India's 352 universities and 18,000 colleges are nowhere near industry ready are rising to a crescendo as there's growing awareness that the technical education being dispensed by them is way below par.

Even as ill-informed reports in the western media herald that India possesses the world's second largest pool of technical and scientific manpower, India Inc, confronted with an unprecedented shortage of skilled professionals and technicians, is unimpressed. Complaints that the overwhelming majority of the 1.2 million science and engineering graduates churned out by India's 352 universities and 18,000 colleges are nowhere near industry ready are rising to a crescendo as there's growing awareness that the technical education being dispensed by them is way below par, if not obsolete.

"The NASSCOM-McKinsey study found that the three major constraints to the employability of Indian engineering graduates are lack of English language communication skills; inadequate domain knowledge, and technical skills especially among graduates of the vast majority of second and third rung engineering colleges which are burdened with obsolete curriculums and poor quality faculty," says Kiran Karnik, the Delhi-based former president of NASSCOM, the consortium which serves as the lobby of the Indian software and BPO industries.
www.educationworldonline.net/index.php/page-article-choice-more-id-1247

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 12:05 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to Roy Lawson

" If the worker has a pending permanent residency application, I would continue 1-year extensions until that reaches a conclusion.  And yes, they (the government) needs to speed up that process."

There is lot of process, time and money involved in extending any visa every year. And some states don't even give driving license without having a valid Visa in hand and always the license expire date is that of Visa expire date. Think about standing in MVA every year just to extend the driving license and there is no good reason to have it extending every year.

Seriously I can't handle USCIS,DOL,DHS and Local DMV every year that is too much to work for every year. You can't hurt any guest worker more than having this one rule in place.

" Either approve or deny a person, but don't leave them in limbo for years"

There are tons of organization who don't want this to be resolved...there is tons of benefit for thme in not having this fixed.

"That's a mis-characterization of my view on this matter.  I assume you meant "kill" in the figurative and not literal sense and even that goes too far.  I think my solution is reasonable and considerate of our human guests."

My apology for using the word 'Kill'...and I meant figurative and not in literal sense.

"Can we at least agree that future H-1b admissions - until the economy improves - should be halted?"

There is no reason to disagree on this, it even benefits any people who are in GC limbo. H1b number has to be reviewed every year but I seriously doubt govt will consider general public opinion in place of corporate interest.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 12:07 PM hire american hire american  says: in response to You are

H1b usage decreased due to higher visa fees and recession in the US.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 12:23 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to Roy Lawson

"L1 is not a working visa.  It is a managerial visa and some companies have been creative in how they define "manager".  In my view if you are writing code or administering a system, you are not a manager.  We need to strictly police that, and add prevailing - no strike that - MARKET wage requirements.  We need to make sure that only senior level managers and executives are using this visa and that their duties are that of a true manager."

I am not sure if you are aware of L1 categories

The L-1 visa has two subcategories: L-1A for executives and managers, and L-1B for workers with specialized knowledge. L-1A status is valid for up to 7 years, L-1B for 5. After the expiration of the 7 or 5 years respectively, the person(foreigner) must leave the United States for an aggregate of 365 days, and must work for a parent, subsidiary, affiliate or branch of the U.S. company during that time before becoming eligible to reapply for an L-1 visa.

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 12:33 PM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to who knows

The L-1b is for specialized - meaning work that is unique to a company and generally proprietary.  Knowing Java or some other development language is not a unique or proprietary skill to a company.

It is also an INTRA company visa.  So really any work performed by consultants on the L-1b for 3rd party clients should not be allowed.  Unfortunately the top sponsors of the L1 are who's who of Indian offshoring firms:

1     Tata Consultancy Services     Mumbai, India     India     4887

2     Cognizant Technology Solutions     New Jersey     India     3520

3     IBM     Armonk, New York     USA     1237[3]

4     Mahindra Satyam     Hyderabad, India     India     950

5     Wipro     Bangalore, India     India     839

6     Hindustan Computers     Noida, India     India     511

7     Deloitte & Touche LLP     New York, New York     USA     513

8     Patni Computer Systems     Mumbai, India     India     440

9     Intel Corporation     Santa Clara, California     USA     392

10     Kanbay (currently Capgemini)     Chicago, Pune, Hyderabad, and Chennai     India     329

Reply
Aug 16, 2011 12:51 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Roy, I am trying to say that L1 is not only for Managerial positions but there are other categories too.

I agree L1 is mostly used by Indian companies the main reason is they are the one who has offices in both location.

I can't get into validity on L1 because I never been on L1 and to my understand they (most big companies) have blanket approval and they use it on any resource who had completed 1yr with them. And if you ask me USCIS cannot validate L-1 visas unless the companies use them change the behavior.

"The L-1b is for specialized - meaning work that is unique to a company and generally proprietary.  Knowing Java or some other development language is not a unique or proprietary skill to a company."

This is the key issue with L1, how a company project the work makes it eligible or not.

Say if Company X has product 'Accounting' and it was developed in Java, then company X will say resource is expert in their product 'Accounting' where has in reality the resource is Java developer but worked in 'Accounting' product. Now how USCIS can validate this critical difference, and do you think USCIS has capability at any level to validate this ?

 

Always big companies has tons of products which USCIS have zero knowledge or information to cross check.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 1:00 AM John80224 John80224  says: in response to Only

Wow, Only, you make this too easy.  I don't have time to tear your entire argument apart, so let's just work on the part about IT services cost increases...

"...just an increasing in cost of IT services by 10% will have ripple effect .every corporate will increase their goods cost by 15% and whole sale retailer will increase their cost to 17% and end retailer will increase the cost to 20%. All for what...just to get 10k - 25k news jobs and 10 - 20% salary increase for 2millions...and you want all 300million Americans to pay 20% extra on everything for this."

Just because you type digits and those cute little symbols with two circles and a slash (%) doesn't make it "math" nor does it make seemingly random assumptions into "facts".  Somehow you've managed to translate a 10% increase in a single facet of a cost structure into a 20% increase in final cost to consumers.  Even companies whose sole product is IT have administrative and other costs that would mitigate your 10% figure.  In reality, your 10% IT staffing figure likely translates into some figure closer to, or under 1%.

You next go on to demonstrate a general lack of comprehension in either markups or how percents (indicated by '%') work.  Typically, as you work down the chain from producer to final consumer, the markup is a relatively static percent.  The next link does not inquire, "How much did your cost go up so that I can incorporate 1.5 times that amount on top of my usual margin into my price?"  Instead, taking your ludicrous 10% idea and applying it to a $10 product retailing for $20, a 10% increase to $11 will result in a final cost of $22.  Since your math skills seem to be lacking, I'll just let you know that represents a 10% higher final price to consumers--not 20%.  So far you've overstated your case by roughly 2000%.

At the end of it all, you then extrapolate this concept to EVERYTHING EVERY American purchases.  Honestly, there simply is not enough data nor sophisticated enough economic modles to estimate how much further you've hyperbolized.

On the other side, you naively indicate that 10k - 25k jobs might be created.  How does a visa system that only counting H-1bs accounts for about half a million imported workers translate into, at most, 5% of that number of jobs?  On one side, not ALL H1-bs are in IT, but the lion's share are.  That said, I've left out the hundreds of thousands or millions who've since gotten GCs or are on other visas (L1, B1, etc.) being at times abused for a similar purpose.  FURTHER, as these are often misused to bring business analysts and project managers to forward work overseas, we could well be speaking of millions of jobs predicated notably on these visas, yet you indicate an increase of 10-25 thousand.  In which case, why didn't you factor in the billions being saved by cutting back the workforce so much?

I've worked alongside some Indians I still consider friends who would be ashamed of your lack of mathematical and analytical skills.  If you are more typical of the "high" skills, I'm beginning to see why 25K truly skilled workers could replace millions.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 1:08 AM George George  says:

>>Let's say I offer a bribe to an official to get a lucrative government >>contract, and the official accepts it. If I report the official, the official >>goes to jail, and I don't get the contract, but I'm free and clear. If I >>don't report the official, I do get the contract. So even if my original >>intent was to entrap the official, how tempted am I going to be to just >>keep my mouth shut and enjoy the good fortune of my lucrative >>government contract? Beyond all that, there is absolutely no incentive >>for me to refrain from at least trying to bribe the official, because if he >>refuses to accept it and reports me, I'm golden. After all, I was just >>doing my civic duty, trying to nail corrupt officials. I can try bribing >>somebody else. You think corruption in India is bad now? Try putting a >>policy like that in place.

Don,

I don't agree with Narayana moorthy if this was the scenario he had in mind. But knowing what most people and businesses go through for running an honest business in India, I will defer judgement.

The common situation for most folks and businesses that need government approval is extortion - corrupt officials forcing you to pay them for approvals and needed services. This has happened to me when it came to passport verification (cop told me that he won't clear me unless I slipped in 100 bucks). My Dad had to go through so many hurdles just to pay house tax not realizing that they were actually trying to get him to offer a bribe but since my Dad didn't get it, they eventually let it through. I know a self employed contractor who is honest to the core and runs his own CAD consultancy and he wants to do the right thing when he needs to import devices from abroad, pay the duties etc but customs officials make him go through hell until he offers up something. Poor guy feels guilty to the core but there is nothing he can do about it. This is the kind'a stuff that makes you go through the school of hard knocks.

Extortion has permeated to so many levels of government that it is impossible for people who want to be good to be good. The system forces you to pay a bribe. Of course, there are people and businesses that game the system by actually making generious bribes to get preferential treatment.

If the government cracks down on this practice with severe punishment, things would change drastically in favor of those who want to abide by the laws.

I don't think Narayana Moorthy, a respected contrarian that is the the public face of a company who is not involved with operations, be tied with with the Jay Palmer incident. You would have to have some evidence that links Narayana moorthy with the visa incident before you try to connect the two dots.

Regards,

George

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 1:31 AM George George  says: in response to George

My! I just took a quick glance at the previous comments after posting my last comment and realized that I'm the only person who actually had anything to say about this post.

Just a question to some of you: do you actually show your distaste for an H1/L1 worker when you are face to face with them?

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 1:42 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to George

Hi George,

I have family members in a country where bribes are not uncommon.  Not to mention names but a certain family member wanted to build a healthcare facility.  The cost was a $600,000 bribe - which was paid to an official who could control the outcome.  Another firm out-bribed that bribe.  The money was paid back to my family member, but the project went to the highest briber.

That's not my country and not my laws, so I saw my way out of that one.  But I have seen firsthand bribery and on a lower scale.  I personally think politicians should be shot for treason who do that, and I don't understand why some cultures see this as "business as usual".

So be it your $100 bribe, million dollar bribes, or whatever I think it is a very serious offense.

So for the sake of argument let's assume Murthy really wants to stop bribery.  My point is that his "solution" just won't work.  It all boils down to incentives:

In bribery there are usually three parties.  Bribe giver, bribe taker, and witness/es (whistle blower).  Currently bribery is a crime for both parties.  That means the bribe giver and bribe taker have an incentive to keep quiet.  Because whistle-blowing doesn't pay, witnesses also have an incentive to keep quiet (or do their own bribing).  This is a recipe for crime upon more crime.

So let's suppose we changed the equation slightly and made it a crime to only receive bribes as Murthy suggests.  The bribe giver would now have an incentive to pay-off someone willing to take a bribe.  Perhaps the bribe taker would be more leary, but if they were desperate they just might bite.  Now the bribe giver is in a position of power and can continue to ask for favors - lest they report the bribe and face no consequences themselves.  The equation remains the same for any potential whistle-blowers.

So clearly Murthy's suggestion would not work.  What would work?  Secrets are very difficult to keep between two people.  Especially secrets involving large sums of money. 

I would provide greater incentives for whistle-blowers.  Look at Jay Palmer and how few people are reporting visa violations.  He stands to lose money and future career prospects.  I believe that Jay Palmer and those who provide evidence that triggers an investigation and ultimately prosecution and conviction should be rewarded greatly for any money recovered by the government. 

For example, if Infosys was able to avoid $100,000,000 in H-1b fees by illegally using the B-1 visa and the government recuperates that I think Jay Palmer should be given at least 10%.  You save tax payers 90% of what would have been stolen and you provide an incentive for people to report crime.  Jay can retire on $10M and not care if he is blackballed.  Infosys is punished monetarily for the crime, and it does not pay.

Murthy seems to enjoy having ultimate power.  He wants his corporations to sponsor immigrants - and use that as leverage to keep them working away at rock bottom wages.  He wants amnesty from bribe giving so he can have more leverage over politicians.  His motives are so transparent that I don't see why he gets away with it.  This is a sick man punch-drunk from power.  Somebody sober him up.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 1:58 AM John80224 John80224  says: in response to George

As dichotomous as it may sound, my dislike is for those companies that lie and cheat the system (not all using these visas do) and the lawmakers who knowingly support it or are disinterested in being educated.  Not all fall into this category.  I do not begrudge individuals wanting to better their lives accepting an opportunity to do so, especially given my suspicion that many/most are not fully aware of the politics, etc. until already committed.  If I were directly confronted by entitlement, I might feel differently. 

To clarify one implication of last point, I do not feel entitled to a job, but I DO feel entitled to NOT being put at a disadvantage in my country by my government.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 2:05 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George

Just a question to some of you: do you actually show your distaste for an H1/L1 worker when you are face to face with them?

I find that question kind of ironic, since the cases of distaste and derision have been by H1/L1 guestworkers directed at the Americans they displaced. Observe the statements here about how Americans aren't worth hiring.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 2:10 AM You are You are  says: in response to George

welcomed here....whoever speaks for Infosys/NR Murthy has to be Infosys employee or NR Murthy itself...if you wanted to be yourself better come with against Infosys/NR Murthy otherwise you will be ridiculed

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:14 AM Welcome to real world Welcome to real world  says: in response to John80224

"Just because you type digits and those cute little symbols with two circles and a slash (%) doesn't make it "math" nor does it make seemingly random assumptions into "facts"."

Same applies to your comment of ".In reality, your 10% IT staffing figure likely translates into some figure closer to, or under 1%." .ohif it is coming from you it is fact if it is from anyone else it is assumption.

To wake you upyou don't have to really increase the cost for companies to increase the pricejust if you say sothey will increase it because they already counted all earnings before they earn it.

Did you every notices Oil price changes in the world.did the production cost increased/decreased anytime from 2009-2011but the Gas price for every one increased from $1.61/gallon to $3.96/gallonguess what the price moved 245% without any change in any single facet of cost structure (share market is always for future deliveryeven that plays role on your current price).

Your end product price is not always 1+ 1 = 2it is always 1 + 1 = 4there are invisible numbers before and after the +' sign which you never get to know unless you are part of middle man.

"You next go on to demonstrate a general lack of comprehension in either markups or how percents (indicated by '%') work.Typically, as you work down the chain from producer to final consumer, the markup is a relatively static percent.The next link does not inquire, "How much did your cost go up so that I can incorporate 1.5 times that amount on top of my usual margin into my price?" Instead, taking your ludicrous 10% idea and applying it to a $10 product retailing for $20, a 10% increase to $11 will result in a final cost of $22.Since your math skills seem to be lacking, I'll just let you know that represents a 10% higher final price to consumers--not 20%.So far you've overstated your case by roughly 2000%."

I just cut short the lengthy chain of sellers to reduce the boring contentunfortunately you used that with assumption there is only one seller between producer and buyer which is never true in real world.Before you get your rice in bowl it has crossed so many borders and so many sellers if you think otherwise you are one sane person living in dream so far.Producer gets around 10% of the price you pay in the shop, rest 90% goes to middle vendors that is how whole market works unless you go to local markets where producer itself sells.

"On the other side, you naively indicate that 10k - 25k jobs might be created.How does a visa system that only counting H-1bs accounts for about half a million imported workers translate into, at most, 5% of that number of jobs?On one side, not ALL H1-bs are in IT, but the lion's share are.That said, I've left out the hundreds of thousands or millions who've since gotten GCs or are on other visas (L1, B1, etc.) being at times abused for a similar purpose.FURTHER, as these are often misused to bring business analysts and project managers to forward work overseas, we could well be speaking of millions of jobs predicated notably on these visas, yet you indicate an increase of 10-25 thousand.In which case, why didn't you factor in the billions being saved by cutting back the workforce so much?"

You mean to say the suggestion from Lawson is throw every guest worker in US out' .my understanding is of future visa reductionand my numbers are based on that benefit nothing to do with existing people. Reply

Aug 17, 2011 3:14 AM Welcome to real world Welcome to real world  says: in response to John80224
Did you know what the current usage of H1 is for FY 2012 (Oct 2011-Sep 2012)?As of 08/12 the count is 25,300 general quota and 14,700 MS quota and you think every application will be approved and every approved applicant will land in US?

Hope now you get how I reached 10k-25k count and also every single visa stopped cannot be treated as a job created in US.

You have (there is no choice for you) to leave those already got GC, and already in H1 in US because they get grandfathered in most cases.

And you never get to stop L1 and B1which is one wild dream you can have but in reality your voice is not the one hear loud in Congress.Those visas will be here and closing those visas won't create millions of jobs here in USmay be those can create millions of jobs in offshore centers permanently (with current technologies you never need to visit US to have knowledge transfer).

Just let say you got your wish granted and there is no L1,L2 and B1 any more .now those companies (using those visas) will give two options to their client

1)     Don't expect any resource to work onsite.

2)     When you want a resource onsite get ready to pay $150k (includes salary, benefits of employees and margin for company) for each resource.

Guess what client will pick We understand the difficulty in getting resource here in local..so we will get one resource (usually one existing employee) here who will do nothing but whatever you ask for (request from offshore team)'.

"I've worked alongside some Indians I still consider friends who would be ashamed of your lack of mathematical and analytical skills.If you are more typical of the "high" skills, I'm beginning to see why 25K truly skilled workers could replace millions."

One wise dream (kicking millions out of country in one shot) you have .you cannot expect all different types of visa gets closed just by commenting in Don's blog.And for your information truly skilled people always get a job no matter how many immigrants are there.Truly skilled people are who give more than what they are paid forwhich seems to be very less percentage than you wish to have.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:19 AM George George  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Thanks R.Lawson,

I see your point of view and tend to agree. I never agreed with N.moorthy's approach to begin with but I have a feeling that he may have had extortion in mind. Ratan Tata complained the same thing.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:28 AM George George  says: in response to John80224

John80224,

>>As dichotomous as it may sound, my dislike is for those companies that lie and cheat the system (not all using these visas do) and the lawmakers who knowingly support it or are disinterested in being educated. 

Same pinch. I have no respect for Infosys, Wipro, TCS, CTS who are well known for gaming the system and taking advantage of otherwise honest and well qualified people that were unaware of the realities since they came here  (some of whom I know).

>>To clarify one implication of last point, I do not feel entitled to a job, but I DO feel entitled to NOT being put at a disadvantage in my country by my government.

Agree with you. Can't stand it when people think they are entitled to a service.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:30 AM George George  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

>>I find that question kind of ironic, since the cases of distaste and derision have been by H1/L1 guestworkers directed at the Americans they displaced. Observe the statements here about how Americans aren't worth hiring

Valid point but doesn't answer my question.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:37 AM Person Person  says: in response to Roy Lawson

with no knowledge or only knowledge from this blog... of NR Murthy should avoid judging him...

Your comments suggest motives of someone whom you have no clue about.

"This is a sick man punch-drunk from power.  Somebody sober him up."

Really this is not called for and you gone down to cheapest level by name calling a person on whom you have no knowledge about.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:41 AM George George  says: in response to You are

>>welcomed here....whoever speaks for Infosys/NR Murthy has to be Infosys employee or NR Murthy itself...

Rubbish. Better come up with more impressive logic if you don't want to look ridiculous.

>>if you wanted to be yourself better come with against Infosys/NR Murthy otherwise you will be ridiculed

Nonsense. And who cares.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:48 AM You sound You sound  says: in response to George

like care for others comment...otherwise why you respond...

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 3:49 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to Person

"Really this is not called for and you gone down to cheapest level by name calling a person on whom you have no knowledge about."

Really? 

I know he was heading a billion dollar corporation while at the same time they are alleged to be involved in massive immigration fraud. 

I know that he has advocated legalizing the giving of bribes. 

I know that he has attempted to influence my government so that he can continue controlling immigrant workers' very right to live here, and at the same time displacing my fellow citizens from their jobs. 

I know that his company hires over 90% of his citizens in my country while hiring a token staff of Americans.

Is there anything else I should know about him before jumping to the conclusion that this man is a bad person?

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 4:28 AM I don't see I don't see  says: in response to Roy Lawson

your reasons are sufficient enough to go that low...

"I know he was heading a billion dollar corporation while at the same time they are alleged to be involved in massive immigration fraud." 

You think a billion dollar company CEO wants to involve in day to day operation?What did Golman Sachs CEO know about his companies involvement in selling 'Sic mortgage packages of security'.Every CEO trust their employees for day to day activities.

You want to blame every single activities in a company on a CEO looks childish to me, you can ask him to take responsbility but telling that he himself involved is ridiculus.

"I know that he has advocated legalizing the giving of bribes." 

     He is not advocating....he said 'I agree with suggestion given by some X', is it so wrong to agree with someone just because you disagree with the opinion.He didn't even asked for this to be implemented in any place...it is just a opinion and has nothing to do with reality.

     It looks like if you have to be Gay to agree for Gay marriage, looks silly and childish.

     

     Here in US any company can contribute for elections that to anonymously...and why would a company pay for someone's election...just have a great leader in congress...nope..it is all to make sure their interest is kept ahead of anything else.And in any other country (as far as I know) it is called bribing.

     

     You never know...it may very will work in India for fixing corruption...after all it is so prevelent there...what harm it can make there...

     

     Also his suggestion is for India only...It is not for US...because it is there already (in different format) in US and working very well for corporates so he don't want the existing system to be changed.

"I know that he has attempted to influence my government so that he can continue controlling immigrant workers' very right to live here, and at the same time displacing my fellow citizens from their jobs."

I don't know get what you are trying here....'he was trying to influnce your government'...

You mean to say 'If someone influence you to so some work it is not your mistake...it is the mistake of the person who was trying to influence'

And...you forget that it is legal in US to influence (kind of bribing in any other country).Even Pakistan influence your government to continue pay them billions.What kind of government is yours which gets influced for few bucks and you want the person to stop paying bribe (here in US it got named as contribution) rather than asking the person to stop accepting bribe.

And Infosys is not the only company doing all possible things to maintain existing flawed immigration system...every company (MS, IBM, Oracle, EBS, Apple...every single company using the visa system).

"I know that his company hires over 90% of his citizens in my country while hiring a token staff of Americans."

He don't want to hire anyone in US because it is costly for him, he wants every job to be offshored and it has nothing to do with Americans...it is the business model his clients (mostly American companies) wanted him to do. Reply

Aug 17, 2011 4:28 AM I don't see I don't see  says: in response to Roy Lawson
If his clients ask him to hire only Americans he would do right away...my company is not more than 500+...even with this small size (when compared with Infosys) our CEO never bother to ask HR whom you are recruiting...it is upto the managers to put a opening and ask HR to get a suitable person.CEO cares only the end result...and it is his earnings.And Infosys is 100k employee company and you are suggesting he instruct their HR to get only Indians.

Just self check your company...how the recruitment process goes...does your CEO ask HR to recruit only Whites (I remember in one of your comment you said...your company has very few African Americans)?If so then hating should start from your CEO...your Clients....

"Is there anything else I should know about him before jumping to the conclusion that this man is a bad person?"

He is no more (in few days) CEO of Infosys....and he earned enough money for his life and has no reason to influence anyone in the world.He got all he need and don't have to earn any more money to live.From your comment one thing is very clear...you know nothing about him other than what Don blogs about him or from the comments you read here.World is beyond this blog and people are there beyond commenters here.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 4:39 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George

Valid point but doesn't answer my question.

Ok.. to answer your question, speaking for myself I treat everyone with the same professional courtesy at work. But I have observed some Indian workers using disparaging terms in Hindi towards their American coworkers, especially women, since they thought nobody understood them . I refrained from reporting them since I did not want to get involved in a potentially complicated HR situation at that time.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 5:52 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to I don't see

It looks like if you have to be Gay to agree for Gay marriage, looks silly and childish.

Gay marriage is a civil rights issue. Condoning giving bribes is not. Or can you not tell the difference between the two. Such a flawed analogy says a lot about you.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 6:01 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to I don't see

"He don't want to hire anyone in US because it is costly for him, he wants every job to be offshored and it has nothing to do with Americans...it is the business model his clients (mostly American companies) wanted him to do. "

Can I get you on camera saying that? 

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 6:15 AM John80224 John80224  says: in response to Welcome to real world

"Same applies to your comment of €œ.In reality, your 10% IT staffing figure likely translates into some figure closer to, or under 1%.€€.oh€if it is coming from you it is fact if it is from anyone else it is assumption."

Fair enough. No, I don't cite labor statistics and will readily admit I'm estimating based on personal experience. But simple logic is on my side. I overrated your ability to infer. My 1% was based on a GENEROUS estimate of IT staff equalling 10% of the total budget. 10% of 10% is...1%. Your math indicated that a 10% increase in IT is a 10% increase in total cost. If you'd like to support that 1:1 ratio, let me grab some popcorn first. If you'd like to tell me about some company whose SOLE cost is IT personnel salaries (no buildings, no other employees, no computers, no postage, no phones, no...) PLEASE enlighten me. From a more reasonable planet, I work in a software company and only about 1/3 of our employees are IT. I worked for a major insurance company and less than 5% of their budget was IT (which included more than staff salaries).  Basically, I was being conservative at 10% of total corporate costs being IT salaries. I won't waste my day teaching you what common sense tells the rest of us, but here's some random support. www.metrics2.com/blog/2006/06/26/average_company_spends_34_of_revenue_on_it.html

"To wake you up€you don€™t have to really increase the cost for companies to increase the price€just if you say so€they will increase it because they already counted all earnings before they earn it."

I very much get that, but YOUR premise was based on the effect of a cost driving a price change. I know your math sucked but to "school" me on an unstated premise I already understand makes no sense.

"Did you every notices Oil price changes in the world€.did the production cost increased/decreased anytime from 2009 €“2011€but the Gas price for every one increased from $1.61/gallon to $3.96/gallon€guess what the price moved 245% without any change in any single facet of cost structure (share market is always for future delivery€even that plays role on your current price).

Your end product price is not always 1+ 1 = 2€it is always 1 + 1 = 4€there are invisible numbers before and after the €˜+€™sign which you never get to know unless you are part of middle man."

First off, from whence comes "it is always 1 + 1 = 4"? I know what you mean, but I fear you think collusion and monopolies have more overall control than the market demonstrates in most industries.

To underscore AGAIN, YOU had drawn a connection to raising price due to raised cost. Yes, other factors may be introduced but for the most part a point which you continue to miss is that GENERALLY margins remain relatively similar (percentage-wise). In competetive markets wildly raising price opens you up to be undercut. Oil is very heavily controlled by relatively few companies--many of which openly collude on pricing.

"I just cut short the lengthy chain of sellers to reduce the boring content€unfortunately you used that with assumption there is only one seller between producer and buyer which is never true in real world. Reply

Aug 17, 2011 6:15 AM John80224 John80224  says: in response to Welcome to real world
Before you get your rice in bowl it has crossed so many borders and so many sellers if you think otherwise you are one sane person living in dream so far.Producer gets around 10% of the price you pay in the shop, rest 90% goes to middle vendors that is how whole market works unless you go to local markets where producer itself sells."

Actually, it is I who owe the apology for simplifying. Principle still holds. Take a widget that costs $8 to produce with 9 total companies (including original producer) making a 10% margin before the consumer has it in his grubby hands. In order, each company will sell that widget for: 8.89, 9.88, 10.98, 12.20, 13.56, 15.07, 16.74, 18.60, 20.67. Raise the cost of production by 10% to $8.8 and guess what...every number along the way goes up 10%: 9.78, 10.87, 12.08, 13.42, 14.91, 16.57, 18.41, 20.46, 22.73. Yes, some middle men may try to increase their margin, but in most industries, those equalize out and are not up for discussion if you're going to generalize to the level of all Americans.

"You mean to say the suggestion from Lawson is €˜throw every guest worker in US out€™€.my understanding is of future visa reduction€and my numbers are based on that benefit€ nothing to do with existing people.Did you know what the current usage of H1 is for FY 2012 (Oct 2011 €“Sep 2012)?As of 08/12 the count is 25,300 general quota and 14,700 MS quota and you think every application will be approved and every approved applicant will land in US?

Hope now you get how I reached 10k €“25k count and also every single visa stopped cannot be treated as a job created in US."

Yes, I was discussing historical impact and a comparative "what if". (Side note: I personally don't call for sending everyone not born a citizen back). However, unless those visas have been curbed to one year rather than the three to (often) open ended until GC status is finally decided, you still need to multiply your numbers by something in the vicinity of a factor of 5.

"Just let say you got your wish granted and there is no L1,L2 and B1 any more € "

Given the level of realization that outsourcing has its own pitfalls and is not typically the fantastical 70% cost savings Infosys told the CFO, I'm pretty comfortable it will be more of a middle ground outcome than every single company moves all operations offshore or all jobs are done in the US.

"One wise dream (kicking millions out of country in one shot) you have €."

For this one, I will hold my sarcasm. I recognize what's already happened and do not begrudge individuals wanting to improve their lives.

"And for your information truly skilled people always get a job no matter how many immigrants are there.Truly skilled people are who give more than what they are paid for€which seems to be very less percentage than you wish to have."

Thanks for the chuckle. It's amazing how absolutely pathetic so many companies were until they were introduced to India or China. Entire departments were cut because, as you imply, every single person in that department sucked, how did we ever firgure out how to turn on a computer without you? Here's what really happens--a new VP comes into your your division and immediately starts telling people he's never met nor seen their resume that, "You're not qualified to do your job" (which by some amazing coincidence is the single highest-weighted corporate HR allowed reason to lay someone off) and suddenly every manager, lead and senior person is laid off.  Reply

Aug 17, 2011 6:15 AM John80224 John80224  says: in response to Welcome to real world
Funny how the most experienced somehow happened to be the least capable. Now demonstrate at least some semblance of little logical thought and recognize that employability is not a simple formula based on your intellect and skills.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 7:42 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

Why are you so shocked Don? Bribery is a way of life in India. Ooening our doors to India, Inc. Has brought their corruotion here and corrupted our govt and corporations. I am quite sure Milions changes hands between NASSCOM and America's politicians and business executives.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 8:01 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Only

So basically anything corporations want, they should get ? Till the 1930s there was no such thing as an 8 hour day. You worked 10-12 hour days 6-7 days a week, Because that was what corporations wanted. The government and workers forced the corporations to accept reasonable working conditions. This of course reduced the corporate profits. But that of course is just "tricks" to thwart the corporations according to you.You want to take working conditions back to third world sweat shop environments. I wonder where you got those ideas... oh let me guess...

Once again you start lecturing us about our government and country while being a guest here. You think you are a John Maynard Keynes don't you, spouting "economic theory"... Well, you are not.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 9:09 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to Only

"Lawson...you seem to dislike corporates...well how about you start a big company and show your national interest...by recruiting only US citizens with starting pay of $150k/yr for fresher graduates and $250k/yr for experienced people.."

Sorry, until now I didn't realize that corporations were benevolent organizations who care about our long-term national interests.  Thanks for helping me understand.

"You are speaking for a million or two IT employees..whereas there are 300million in US. Any cost increase in IT services will affect other costs associated with it...just an increasing in cost of IT services by 10% will have ripple effect "

I don't know about you, but the projects I am on increase company productivity and profitability greatly.  With the ROI teams I work with deliver, a 10% increase is nothing.  In fact, I've increased our own productivity by a factor of 3-4 by introducing code generation and solid architecture. 

The cost per developer per hour is not the measure you should be looking at.  You should look at the ratio between cost and ROI.  You get a huge bang for your buck when you do business with me because I'm not interested in racking up billable hours. 

Indian companies thrive on racking up billable hours.  To the body shops, it's not about what they can do for their customers - no it's about how long they can take to do it.  Woe to the developer who finishes their tasks early.  That's why very few companies see any savings by going offshore. 

The commoditized labor market is good at manually doing commoditized tasks.  I'm good at automating commoditized tasks.  Check-mate.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 11:23 AM hmmm hmmm  says: in response to hire american

whatever :P

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 11:40 AM ya ya  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

keep twisting whatever direction you wanted...but make sure you never give reasonable argument that is the style.

You read what you want to read...and interpret the way you wanted it or fit for your agenda here.....

All I said was government can try different way to curb the earnings of corporate and ultimately corporates will find another way to earn the money...doesn't mean not to control on them but put reasonable control instead of dictating every single action in the name of rules ....then they will end up having people to find holes in it and exploite it till any govt agencies wakeup...which usually take a decde or two.

Govt work should be monitoring and identifying fraud and not to run the any program. In this case (immigration program...) they run the whole immigration program from start to finish and corporate has only role of filing and paying everything else falls on govt agencies.

1. Not all agencies get highly talented people to get the work done in efficient and cost effective way..because their pay is always below average for any high skill people to work for long term. You have to work slowly or match the spead of other slow workers in government agencies.

2. No individual accountability in government agencies which would make individual to work better.

Your comment on 8hrs work was laughable... do you really think no corporates expect you to work more than 8hrs? And you never do more than 8hrs work....if you are in IT then for sure there is no such law...your job doesn't fall under the 8hr category.

If you don't want any lecturing ...better don't read it...and I didn't grab your hand and holding your ear to listen....you did it at your will ....you read it then you bound to cry latter which is your choice not mine. This is not your blog and you have no say on what should I type here...when you start your own blog there you define your own set of rules.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 12:05 PM Good try Good try  says: in response to Roy Lawson

I don't know about you, but the projects I am on increase company productivity and profitability greatly. With the ROI teams I work with deliver, a 10% increase is nothing. In fact, I've increased our own productivity by a factor of 3-4 by introducing code generation and solid architecture. I am not in pure IT but I do work with them...unfortunately very few companies (none of the clients who give projects for outsourcing) have any metrics to predict ROI. They start with a million here and there believing that is enough to complete a project and put in use...by outsourcing it...but in reality they end up spending twise or thrice on getting a project of sub-standard and endup having life long maintanance and support from the outsourcing company. Prediction always comes with tons of moving parts which has its own risks. Not more than 15% of IT projects started by any corporates/agencies would provide the intended results or outcome. And your project is 1 of those fall in 15% and it doesn't mean that will be the case for every single IT project in the world. Your team (or you if you are single man army) deserve the hike of more than 10% but that doesn't mean every single IT resource in this country deserve it. I would say you need to look beyond your project/work to speak for the industry because your project/work is one exception and not a standard in the real world. Every company in reality measure cost per developer per hour at the initial stage of any project when they never identified the resources. Once any resource start a productive work you will know the real ROI till then all your values are assumptions only. And if you got a bad architecture (usually one person decide this and rest of the team follows it) to start with then forget about ROI...in most cases even a real product outcome.It is surprising to know still people claiming Code generation is the way to go (I have attended some session in our organisation from IT people..but never seen single product out of such claim to validate the real outcome) for all projects, hope you know one size doesn't fit of all people. Don't take your one isolated sucess/development story and paint the whole IT industry works like that."Indian companies thrive on racking up billable hours. To the body shops, it's not about what they can do for their customers - no it's about how long they can take to do it. Woe to the developer who finishes their tasks early. That's why very few companies see any savings by going offshore. "I would say it is lack of client knowledge and experiece in getting the output...If I don't know what I want and I have no clue on how to present it to the builder ....I never get my house construction completed on time and on budget....if at all I gets it completed...I would never like it. The commoditized labor market is good at manually doing commoditized tasks. I'm good at automating commoditized tasks. Check-mate.

You are exception from general IT field and for sure you are not the sample to pick to start with. Rest of the world runs on commoditized labor market and manually doing commoditized tasks.

And by the way you got anything to offer for other industry or you are like a frog in the well...who doesn't know  (get to know) anything beyond his/her well...and always work for or praise his/her well water.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 12:10 PM Re-posted Re-posted  says: in response to Good try

as my previous post got messed on alignment....

"I don't know about you, but the projects I am on increase company productivity and profitability greatly.With the ROI teams I work with deliver, a 10% increase is nothing.In fact, I've increased our own productivity by a factor of 3-4 by introducing code generation and solid architecture."

I am not in pure IT but I do work with them...unfortunately very few companies (none of the clients who give projects for outsourcing) have any metrics to predict ROI.They start with a million here and there believing that is enough to complete a project and put in use...by outsourcing it...but in reality they end up spending twise or thrice on getting a project of sub-standard and endup having life long maintanance and support from the outsourcing company.

Prediction always comes with tons of moving parts which has its own risks.Not more than 15% of IT projects started by any corporates/agencies would provide the intended results or outcome.And your project is 1 of those fall in 15% and it doesn't mean that will be the case for every single IT project in the world.

Your team (or you if you are single man army) deserve the hike of more than 10% but that doesn't mean every single IT resource in this country deserve it.I would say you need to look beyond your project/work to speak for the industry because your project/work is one exception and not a standard in the real world.

Every company in reality measure cost per developer per hour at the initial stage of any project when they never identified the resources.Once any resource start a productive work you will know the real ROI till then all your values are assumptions only.

And if you got a bad architecture (usually one person decide this and rest of the team follows it) to start with then forget about ROI...in most cases even a real product outcome.It is surprising to know still people claiming Code generation is the way to go (I have attended some session in our organisation from IT people..but never seen single product out of such claim to validate the real outcome) for all projects, hope you know one size doesn't fit of all people.

Don't take your one isolated sucess/development story and paint the whole IT industry works like that.

"Indian companies thrive on racking up billable hours.To the body shops, it's not about what they can do for their customers - no it's about how long they can take to do it.Woe to the developer who finishes their tasks early.That's why very few companies see any savings by going offshore."

I would say it is lack of client knowledge and experiece in getting the output...If I don't know what I want and I have no clue on how to present it to the builder ....I never get my house construction completed on time and on budget....if at all I gets it completed...I would never like it.The commoditized labor market is good at manually doing commoditized tasks.

"I'm good at automating commoditized tasks.Check-mate."

You are exception from general IT field and for sure you are not the sample to pick to start with.Rest of the world runs on commoditized labor market and manually doing commoditized tasks.

And by the way you got anything to offer for other industry or you are like a frog in the well...who doesn't know  Reply

Aug 17, 2011 12:10 PM Re-posted Re-posted  says: in response to Good try
(get to know) anything beyond his/her well...and always work for or praise his/her well water.

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 12:20 PM This is This is  says: in response to Roy Lawson

how government agencies function...

I am not against government employess(and not specific to US govt employess..it is common across world) but when they get (mostly) below average or converted to below average this is what you get. As of today USCIS and DHS not able to give one solid numbers on how many are in US and how may left US (came on work visa).

"Social Security wrongly declares 14,000 people dead each year"

"It is unfortunate, but some of the death data that we post to our records ... proves to be wrong and we correct it as soon as possible," said administration spokesman Mark Hinkle. "Usually the error was inadvertently caused because of a human typing error when death information was entered into a computer system."

money.cnn.com/2011/08/17/pf/social_security_deaths_mistakes/index.htm?hpt=hp_c2

Reply
Aug 17, 2011 12:28 PM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says: in response to ya

"It is surprising to know still people claiming Code generation is the way to go (I have attended some session in our organisation from IT people..but never seen single product out of such claim to validate the real outcome) for all projects, hope you know one size doesn't fit of all people. "

80% of code in a project is "plumbing" - meaning code that connects the layers, is responsible for persistence of data, and doing things that are easily predictable (CRUD operations, business objects, etc). 

I find it surprising that people still think it's acceptable to not automate this aspect of software development.

If you automate the plumbing - instead of spending 80% of your time doing mindless work and 20% of your time actually implementing business requirements you could now spend 80% of your time delivering value and 20% doing monkey work.

You can't automate everything, but I've been doing this long enough and seen the value across enough projects to know it is silly not to automate wherever it makes sense.  I'm not talking about generating the presentation layer (though some of the plumbing there is also generated).  I'm simply talking about generating things that are easily automated.  When you do that you now have time to focus on your business and spend more time improving the user experience and creating an elegant UI.  Our applications look great - they don't feel like "shoebox apps" and the reason is because we code generate the plumbing.  We have time to smooth the edges.  We have time to speak with our customers and make sure what we deliver is going to solve their problems.

Almost all my projects are with Fortune 100 or big 4 firms.  So this isn't some isolated thing.

Companies with a goal of billing you for as many hours as possible will of course steer you away from code generation.  It's not profitable for them and they need to keep as many people off the bench as possible.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 1:43 AM John80224 John80224  says: in response to jake_leone

Good point, Jake.  I was trying to keep the numbers conservative.  In the simple cases (WellPoint is one) they target at least a 1:4 ratio of onshore BAs/PMs to offshore coders.  But I have no trouble believing the final goal in the Infosyses is to have as many onshore as possible with as many more offshore as possible (be it 1:2 or 1:100).  Interestingly enough, though, Cognizant (for bill-rates?) pushed the department I was in to ramp up onshore more than off.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 2:04 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to John80224

Cognizant's onshore resources are mostly H1bs from bodyshops. Also, Cognizant does not do any employment or resume verification before hiring the contractors:P

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 6:36 AM And And  says: in response to hire american

they pay the least possible salary for H1...I know a person in MD was working for $55k/yr...but after a year he changed job for higher salary...

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 7:55 AM Now Now  says:

US decided to enforce deporting only on high profile cases...rest can enjoy staying in US...howray!!!!

Finally vote politics only will win...nothing else...no matter how loud you guys cry...

www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/18/deportation.reviews/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

In a move that could shake up the U.S. immigration system, the Department of Homeland Security is going to begin reviewing all 300,000 pending deportation cases in federal immigration courts to determine which individuals meet specific criteria for removal and to focus on "our highest priorities."

DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano said the review will enhance public safety. "Immigration judges will be able to more swiftly adjudicate high priority cases, such as those involving convicted felons," Napolitano wrote Thursday in a letter to assistant majority leader Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Illinois, and 21 other senators including Indiana Republican Richard Lugar.

In April, Durbin and Lugar sent a letter to Napolitano asking her to stop deportations of immigrant students who could earn legal status under the the DREAM Act -- legislation that would give children of illegal immigrants a path to citizenship through military service or college education.

Napolitano said the Obama administration has frequently pointed out "it makes no sense to expend our enforcement resources on low-priority cases, such as individuals... who were brought into this country as young children and know no other home."

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 8:24 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Now

For a few minority votes, they sacrifice the majority votes :P

Good luck winning the next election!!

Go Michelle Bachmann!!!!

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 8:29 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Now

.rest can enjoy staying in US...howray!!!!

Yep.. in a detention center... just because they aren't deported doesn't mean they will go free immediately. With the criminals deported, the detention centers will have more space. Laws and politicians in the meantime will change.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 9:29 AM So... So...  says: in response to hire american

you seem to favour Republican President .....at least we can agree on one point.

That sounds Pro-Business...according to Republicans corporates are people and they don't want any restrictions on them.

Who created this wonderful H1 program...Dem (S-56 , H-267)  in 1991 for FY 1992 under Rep President...

Who increased from 65k to 115k ? Rep (S-55, H-223) under Dem President in 1998 for FY 1999

Who increased from 115k to 195k ? Rep (S-55, H-223) under Rep President in 2000 for FY 2001

Rep are pro-business and they give what business wish for no matter what.

Dem introduced all sort of hurdels for legal immigrants like 2010 employer - employee memo, H1 cost increase for offshoring companies, tons of denial for H1s, L1, and B1s.

PS: I am Rep (Finally...I can cast my 1st vote on 2012!!!) because they always support legal immigrants...hate Dems...they always worry about illegal immigrants and put all hurdles for legal immigrants.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 9:30 AM Much Much  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

better than deportation...and you get everything free from US tax payers right...

Nah...laws won't change ....but for sure politicians...

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 9:55 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to So...

Michelle is a Tea partier, big difference!!

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 10:14 AM Now Now  says: in response to hire american

it is added advantage...they don't like big government...

I did verified her view on immigration and rating in numberusa which is B- ...she sounds typical pro-business Republican...

Only sad part is people don't have high regard towards tea partiers after this job in debit celing issue..hope she wins ....

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 10:49 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Much

Not if it is a "work program". They use prisoners to make license plates and filing cabinets ... don't see why these inmates cannot be put to work too. Well you do get "conjugal visits" from other inmates. Some of you may enjoy that.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 11:07 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to John80224

One engineer, doesn't equal one job. One engineer typically sits at the doorway that leads to hundreds of jobs.

The engineer, lawyer, and business process specialist are three of the critical positions that a CEO needs under him.  Engineers, are needed, to understand the system that will be utilized by thousands of lower skilled workers.

The Outsourcers are bringing in engineers from their home country in order to fascilitate the removal of jobs.  Software Engineers are an ideal choice for this because of their mathematical and IT training.

So guys, the number of jobs taken by one engineer is a multiplier of 2-3 orders of magnitude (100-1000x).

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 11:20 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Now

The economy is going to tank further and that will really call the elections next year!!

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 12:12 PM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says:

In related news, Indians are taking to the streets in protest of graft and other forms of corruption: www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/south/Social-Activist-Hazares-Campaign-Strikes-A-Chord-Across-India-128000498.html.

That is good news - and I congratulate those in India who are standing up against those who are betraying their oath to represent you.  I think we should also take to the streets here in the US.  This next election is going to be a real eye-opener now that there are no stops on big money campaign contributions. 

I believe we need Congress to revoke person-hood status of corporations and any entity that is not an air breathing human being with blood running through their veins.  People have rights, corporations are licensed and are granted privileges that the people can grant or revoke.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 12:14 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Sometimes I get the feeling that we're in pre-revolutionary France, with the "Let them eat cake" attitude of our corporate oligarchs.

Reply
Aug 18, 2011 12:45 PM hire american hire american  says: in response to Roy Lawson

We must take to the streets....If not, the voices that will be heard will be these....

www.wbez.org/story/police-arrest-10-protesters-immigration-hearing-90732

Reply
Aug 19, 2011 2:09 AM FYI FYI  says: in response to Roy Lawson

NR Murthy was not heading Infosys at the time of this immigration fraud was happening...here is the list of positions and duration of him in Infosys, after March 2002 he was not involved in day to day operations

Murthy served as the founder CEO of Infosys for 21 years, and was succeeded by co-founder Nandan Nilekani in March 2002. Murthy retired from his executive position at Infosys on 20 August 2006, but continued as the Chairman Emeritus of the Board. He retired completely from Infosys on 20 August 2011.

Reply
Aug 19, 2011 3:19 AM George George  says:

www.wbez.org/story/police-arrest-10-protesters-immigration-hearing-90732

How ironinic: Illegal immigrants that drain the economy using social services (www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79013,00.html) protesting against immigration laws right out in the open.

What's even more ironic is that there is actually a sizable citizeneary population in this country that supports them while another bunch is up in arms because there are a couple of thousand legal immigrants from one particular country over here due to their employers. They've done all the paper work, paid the fees and submitted the documentation waiting in queues and for months for the required authorizations with respect to the normal course of the process and it's these people that recieve flak.

While people complain against H1s and L1s, there is the regular flow of immigration applicants that get processed in the millions every year. And while people still complain, governments badly need these legal immigrants because they are the revenue generators (www.nfap.net/researchactivities/studies/SocialSecurityStudy2005.pdf) required for filling in this country's and most western country's flawed social(istic) service coffers. With a dwindling natural population due to various factors (abortion, broken families and less importance to the family as a fundamental unit in society since the 70s being one of them), the population that fills in the coffers in years to come is simply reducing. Countries like Austrailia, New Zealand and Canada have been suffering from a bad bout of negative population growth. Western governments (the US, Canada, Austrailia, New Zealand, Germany especially and the UK off late) know this pretty well and that's why  they're trying to make legal immigration of skilled immigrants a priority.

Reply
Aug 19, 2011 4:41 AM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says: in response to So...

One thing Republicans to have right is the repatriation of offshore funds.  And Democrats are really waffling on this.  If I were a Republican candidate I would be hitting this really hard.  Instead we get Rick Perry shooting off at the mouth, "Bernanke is a traitor". 

Please, Republicans, have a good candidate this time.  I know that party can do it, if they just use some thoughtfulness and stop catering to sound-bites. 

Because I will vote for the best candidate (I about even Republican vs Dem on the presidential races) on the economic issues, and will work to destroy the candidates who are fools on the economic issues.

Republicans also waffle on the civil rights, and the visa issues are an issue of civil rights.  The citizens of this country should not be victimized by visa programs that create a separate group of people who, simply by act of law, are able to indenture themselves and in doing so give themselves a fenced off area in which citizens are not allowed to compete.

Because of the way Visa's are administered and the complete lack of enforcement of our immigration laws, we have created a condition where U.S. citizens are deemed "Unemployable" (An Indian CEO's words, not mine).

Citizens, Republican and Democrat, have got to realize that if we don't allow other citizens to be able to compete for work on U.S. soil, we are dooming ourselves to either hire taxes, the continued ruining of the value of the U.S. dollar, or default (through Congressional inaction).

Reply
Aug 19, 2011 12:37 PM 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy  says: in response to Roy Lawson

You might fail, but get started

Learn from mistakes and move on.In 1976, Murthy founded Softronics, a company that lasted a year and a half.When he realised that his first venture wasn't taking off, he moved on.

Think big.don't hesitate to start small

In 1981, a determined Murthy started Infosys with Rs 10,000 he borrowed from his wife.In few years, Infosys went on to become one of the largest wealth creators in the country.

Lend a hand and throw in a foot Too

After Murthy convinced seven of his colleagues, there was a problem.Nandan's future inlaws were not sure about him.Murthy met Nandan's uncle and convinced him.

Own up, and then clean up

In the '80s Infosys developed an application for a German client.Murthy noticed a single character error and informed the client immediately.

Keep the faith

Infosys almost wound up in 1990.Murthy did not want to sell the company.He asked co-founders if they wanted out and offered to buy their shares.All of them stuck together.

Get involved

Infosys won a contract from Reebok in the early '90s.Seeing the founders involvement, the software, was nick named 'Dinesh, Murthy and Prahlad.' Infy veterans still recall those days.

Treat your people good, but your best better

Murthy always had a thing for good performers.And he rewarded them well.When Infosys decided to give its employees stock options, Murthy insisted that some shares be given to good performers through the 'Chairman's quota.'

Hire a good accountant, even if he is argumentative

A young, argumentative Indian, was asking too many questions at an annual general body meeting of Infosys.More impressed than irritated, he hired Mohandas Pai, who went on to help Infosys list on Nasdaq.

Leave the family out

Murthy told his wife that only one of them could be with the company.Murthy, along with other founders, said that none of their children would work for Infosys.This left no room for nepotism at Infosys.

Don't be a pushover

In 1994, when General Electric wanted to re-negotiate rates, Murthy said no to selling services any cheaper.This helped Infosys not to be overly dependent on any one client.

Brand-aid first, get clinical

When the sexual harassment case against Infosys' top sales guy Phaneesh Murthy threatened to tarnish the company's brand, Murthy decided to quickly react.He let go of Phaneesh, and settled the case out of court despite Phaneesh wanting to fight it out.

Mind your business, you'll see things coming

Murthy carries and updates a mental model of Infosys' business all the time.According to him, every leader must have a model, consisting of six to seven parameters that might affect business.

Founders keepers, but not forever

Murthy's decision to not allow founders to continue with the company after the age of 65 set another standard for the company.This way, younger leaders at Infosys had a greater chance at the top positions.

Talent spotting and division of labour

Murthy is known to have an eye for talent and a talent for dividing labour.Nandan was given sales responsibilities while Kris and Shibu did the tech stuff.N S Raghavan was asked to handle people and Dinesh was assigned quality.

Give, it only gets you more

In 2010, the Murthy's donated $ 5.2 million USD to Harvard University Press for a project that aims to make India's classical heritage available for generations to come. Reply

Aug 19, 2011 12:37 PM 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy  says: in response to Roy Lawson
He is also supporter of the Akshaya Patra Foundation.

Do it first and do it right

Infosys did many things first.And most things right.For example, it was the first Indian company to list on Nasdaq.It was the first Indian company to make it to the Nasdaq 100 list and it was the first Indian company to attain the highest level of quality certification.

Get rich.Honestly

Rich businesses were considered to be dirty in the days when the country had a socialist bent.Infy was a company which got rid of this sentiment.Murthy, with his 'no compromise' policy on greasing palms and doing ethical business, set the standards.

Do not be afraid to court controversy

Ever since Infosys became a success, Murthy was under constant public glare.This did not deter the straight talking Murthy from courting controversy or voicing his opinions openly.

Never lose the common touch

The big man of Indian IT kept his personal life simple.He lives in a simple, middle class house and flies economy till date.Murthy has always been accessible to people around him.

Do good, look good

Murthy knew the importance of creating an image for Infosys.He invested in creating a sprawling, world class campuses early on, bigger than any other company's headquarters in the country, that would make his global customers feel like they were in a global office.

Reply
Aug 19, 2011 12:38 PM 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy  says: in response to 30 lessons from life and career of NR Narayana Murthy
Aug 20, 2011 4:26 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to George

What's even more ironic is that there is actually a sizable citizeneary population in this country that supports them while another bunch is up in arms because there are a couple of thousand legal immigrants from one particular country over here due to their employers. They've done all the paper work, paid the fees and submitted the documentation waiting in queues and for months for the required authorizations with respect to the normal course of the process and it's these people that recieve flak."

There is no such thing as legal immigrants while US citizens are out of work. Title 8, Section 1182 forbids ALL foreign workers from working in the US while citizens are out of work. You can fill out all the forms you want, and get all the visas you want - you are still illegals if Citizens are out of work. And they are not here due to their employers. Many of you are here on fraud as the InfoSys case is now clearly showing. Plus once you do come here, you get into positions with hiring authority and of course you never hire Americans because of your jealousy and 200-year old hangups about Britain invading India. You're not conning anyone. Foreign workers in the US are deliberately denying jobs to US citizens and you know it.

"While people complain against H1s and L1s, there is the regular flow of immigration applicants that get processed in the millions every year. And while people still complain, governments badly need these legal immigrants because they are the revenue generators"

If you are revenue generators then why are American governments going broke? Back in 1998 when Americans were working, US governments had huge surpluses. Even Senator Diane Feinstein admitted foreign workers pay no taxes and certainly L-1 visa holders don't. Don't act so innocent - we all know you come here hating the US and with the sole purpose to ripoff and siphon our economy and then return home. You're not fooling anyone.

Reply
Aug 20, 2011 10:50 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Looks like some changes are coming...


Death Knell for Outsourcing to India, China

A new law passed in India and a new set of laws being considered in China may spell the end for many types of outsourcing to the two countries. On April 13 of this year, India issued final regulations to implement the Information Technology (Amendment) Act of 2008, dealing with the protection of personal information. These regulations will effectively eliminate the possibility in both India and China that companies can effectively collect and utilize the personal data of customers. Essentially, this means that call centers, sales centers, and support centers can no longer keep or transmit the personal data of callers to anyone. Since so many companies from the EU and US outsource business divisions to India or China specifically to deal with customers, if the outsourced companies can no longer collect or transmit digital information about said customers, the companies are thus rendered almost completely useless to their EU and US affiliates.

www.biztechreport.com/story/1493-death-knell-outsourcing-india-china

Reply
Aug 21, 2011 11:57 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Seems the Infosys articles are being picked up more widely:

News About Infosys & Allegations About Visa Abuse Now Becoming More Widely Circulated On The Internet

xrecruiters.blogspot.com/2011/08/news-about-infosys-allegations-about.html

Reply

Post a comment

 

 

 

 


(Maximum characters: 1200). You have 1200 characters left.

 

null
null

 

Subscribe to our Newsletters

Sign up now and get the best business technology insights direct to your inbox.