We Owe It to Our Kids to Get Over the H-1B Hang-Up

In my "Mamas, Please Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Tech Pros" post yesterday, I wrote about what a shame it is that many IT professionals have become so disenchanted with the profession that they're discouraging their kids from studying computer science and pursuing a career in IT. My point was that just as I don't want us to lose access to the talent that lies outside of this country, I don't want us to lose access to the talent that lies within it, either.

 

That's exactly what's going to happen if our kids aren't given the resources and encouragement they need to prepare for a tech career. But that reality was lost in another sea of reader commentary with a familiar theme: The H-1B visa program has decimated the profession and destroyed the opportunity for Americans to succeed in it. The premise is that Americans should avoid IT because all the jobs are being taken by H-1B visa holders. And that's just preposterous.

 

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, as of May 2005, there were 5,905,240 STEM jobs in the U.S. Of those, 2,855,320 were what the BLS calls "technology occupations" or "computer specialists." Tell you what. Let's forget all the other STEM jobs, and just look at those. And let's say that fully half of those jobs have disappeared since 2005 (seems a bit extreme, but what the heck-let's make it interesting). That means there are 1,427,660 technology/computer specialist jobs left.

 

The number of H-1B visa holders in the country at any one time is difficult to pin down. According to HR Magazine, B. Lindsay Lowell, director of policy studies for the Institute for the Study of International Migration at Georgetown University, estimates the number at 500,000. That would be roughly 35 percent of the total number of computer jobs out there. I understand that if you're unemployed because you've been displaced by an H-1B visa holder supplied by some corrupt company that's abusing the system, it makes no difference to you whether the number is .0035 percent or 35 percent. You're still out of work. I get that.

 

But the fact remains that somebody has to fill the other 65 percent of those jobs. We simply can't allow the emotion of the H-1B issue to cause us to lose sight of that, especially with so many baby boomers approaching retirement. Steering our kids away from computer science is a shortsighted, impulsive reaction to the H-1B problem. For the sake of our kids, we need to get over it.



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Dec 27, 2009 1:45 AM Kim Berry - Programmers Guild Kim Berry - Programmers Guild  says:

Hi Don,

I just read you comment to Roy Lawson above. I think that to many economists "free trade" is a religion - they mindlessly cite "invisible hand" and "win-win" of trade based on simplistic examples "France makes wine cheaper and Spain makes cheese cheaper therefore it's win-win when France trades wine for cheese." That is not what is happening in today's global marketplace.

But I agree with your position that we need to face the reality that 2 billion people in India and China have a much lower cost of living and that "free trade" (or as I see it Perot's "giant sucking sound") is a strong force. I hope we agree that allowing every U.S. job to either move to India and China - and any left over to be filled by foreign H-1b and H-2 "consultants" is a bad thing for the U.S. economy and U.S. workers.

"free trade" is entropy - it's allowing your boat to rust rather than painting it. Letting your boat rust is not "win-win" - the boat loses. "trade barriers" to protect the U.S. market are the paint. I say "paint the U.S. boat before we sink!" U.S. wages are "hot water" and China wages are "cold water." Effort is required to keep U.S. wages from sinking to China's wages: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy#Entropy_and_the_Second_Law

The U.S. trade deficit of dollars moving to middle east for energy, China for goods, and India for business services is unsustainable. Some economists who are not trapped in the religion can see this. After a year in office Congress and Obama have done NOTHING to address our trade deficit. (H-1b and L-1 make the trade deficit worse as Indian consulting firms use cheaper H-1b to out-big U.S. firms, and U.S. firms like Microsoft and Intel use these visa as a means of training workers in the U.S. to then move projects and technologies overseas.

I heard last week that China now owns Volvo and Hummer. California is considering selling state office buildings to pay for social services to illegal immigrants - and to pay for Air Force One to take Obama to Hawaii for another holiday - then what - the state pays rent back to the foreign owners of the buildings?

I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Sincerely,

Mr. Kim Berry

www.programmersguild.org

FACEBOOK: tiny.cc/PGFACE

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Dec 27, 2009 3:11 AM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says:

Let me direct you the commentary just   posted..........

GREENSPAN CALLS FOR LOWER WAGES FOR AMERICA'S SKILLED WORKERS

www.newswithviews.com/Cutler/michael176.htm

It is no  wonder American students are avoiding  tech/engineering   carrers seeing the drive to depress  wages !

Might I direct you to this  quote:

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.

"For the traitor appears not a traitor-he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear."

- Marcus Tullius Cicero 42 B.C

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Dec 27, 2009 9:37 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

I think the old addage about winning bees with honey applies here.

I've read many of the comments toward Don - frankly many the criticisms toward him seem petty.

Let's just lay out the facts.  You have a journalist that is somewhat sympathetic to your cause.  He doesn't have all of the facts straight, but he is starting to connect some of the dots.  Instead of saying "Don, here is where I think you are wrong - sir", or "I respectfully disagree", many of the comments seem designed to tear down the man's character.

We can do better than that. 

One of the reasons we don't get fair coverage in the media is because we don't know how to deal with the media.   Who here thinks that calling Don Tennant a journalist in quotes or "shill" is going to result in him writing an article more friendly to your cause?  If anything, it will result in him writing more postings about how bitter we are.

What is our goal here?  Is to to vent personal anger or is it to change national policy?  I've seen way too much venting and way too little productive actions that will impact national policy.  I don't neccessarily disagree with most of what has been said, but I don't like how the message is being delivered.  It isn't professional, and it isn't "smart activism".  If you want to vent, go kick the dog or something.

Happy Holidays, Don and all.  I hope that in 2010 we will use more tact.

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Dec 27, 2009 11:23 AM Elizabeth Vail Elizabeth Vail  says:

11 arrested, indicted in multi-state visa fraud operation

DES MOINES, Iowa - U.S.Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents arrested 11 individuals in seven states Wednesday as part of an investigation into suspected visa and mail fraud.Matthew G.Whitaker, U.S.Attorney for the Southern District of Iowa, announced the operation, which was carried out by federal, state and local law enforcement agencies in Iowa, California, Massachusetts, Texas, Pennsylvania, Kentucky and New Jersey.

Vision Systems Group Inc., a New Jersey Domestic Profit Corporation with a branch office in Coon Rapids, Iowa, was also indicted in a 10-count federal indictment that included one count of conspiracy, eight counts of mail fraud, and one count of 'Notice of Forfeiture' in the amount of $7.4 million.

"Today's multi-state enforcement action is the result of an extensive, ongoing investigation into suspected H-1B visa fraud, mail fraud, and conspiracy," said U.S.Attorney Whitaker."Dubbed "Operation Pacific Vision," this investigation is the result of outstanding cooperation and collaboration among law enforcement agencies at all levels of government."

The investigation is being conducted by ICE in collaboration with U.S.Citizenship and Immigration Services' Fraud Detection and National Security Division (FDNS);U.S.Department of Labor's Office of Inspector General;U.S.Postal Inspection Service (USPIS);U.S.Department of State;Social Security Administration's Office of the Inspector General, and is supported by the U.S.Attorney's Office for the Southern District of Iowa.

"This case highlights the Department of Homeland Security's commitment to identifying and dismantling visa fraud schemes," said Homeland Security Acting Assistant Secretary for ICE John P.Torres."Ensuring the integrity of our nation's legal immigration system is a top priority for ICE."

"This is a prime example of how the Department of Homeland Security identifies fraud," said Michael Aytes, USCIS's acting deputy director."Our adjudication officers can spot inconsistencies during the application process that ultimately led to the successful outcome we're seeing today.Visa fraud undermines the integrity of the immigration system and I'm proud that our officers have helped to ensure that the American people and our customers can continue to depend on a reliable system."

Federal authorities, with assistance from state and local law enforcement, served search warrants at addresses in Urbandale and Clive, Iowa;in Santa Clara, Rancho Cucamonga and Arcadia, Calif.;and in South Plainfield, N.J.

This investigation involves companies that sponsor primarily H-1B non-immigrants, or temporary workers in specialty occupations that require a particular expertise.The companies that are the subject of this investigation have asserted that the foreign workers have been brought to the U.S.to fill existing vacancies.However, the companies allegedly have not always had jobs available for these workers, thereby placing them in non-pay status after they arrive in the United States.In some cases, the foreign workers have allegedly been placed in jobs and locations not previously certified by the Department of Labor, displacing qualified American workers and violating prevailing wage laws.

The companies and foreign workers have allegedly submitted false statements and documents in support of their visa petitions. Reply

Dec 27, 2009 11:23 AM Elizabeth Vail Elizabeth Vail  says:
The false statements and documents were mailed or wired to state and federal agencies in support of the visa applications.The companies are suspected of visa fraud, mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy.

"The foreign labor certification programs are designed to permit U.S.employers to hire foreign workers to fill jobs essential to American businesses," said Daniel R.Petrole, deputy inspector general, U.S.Department of Labor."Our agency remains resolute in its commitment with its law enforcement partners to investigate fraud committed against these Department of Labor programs."

U.S.businesses use the H-1B program to employ foreign workers in specialty occupations that require theoretical or technical expertise in specialized fields, such as scientists, engineers, or computer programmers.As part of the H-1B program, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Department of Labor (DOL) require U.S.employers to meet specific labor conditions to ensure that American workers are not adversely impacted, while the DOL's Wage and Hour Division safeguards the treatment and compensation of H-1B workers.Congress sets a numerical cap for the admission of skilled workers into the U.S.The current H-1B cap is set at 65,000 visas per fiscal year.H-1B aliens can work in the United States for three years, with an option for an additional three years (for a maximum of six years).

Those arrested Wednesday by ICE agents include:

Shiva Neeli, arrested in Boston, Mass.;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Ramakrishna Maguluri, arrested in Atlanta, Ga.;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Villiappan Subbaiah, arrested in Dallas, Texas;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Suresh Pola, arrested in Pennsylvania;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Vishnu Reddy, arrested in Los Angeles, Calif.;charged with conspiracy, mail fraud and wire fraud.

Chockalingam Palaniappan, arrested in San Jose, Calif.;charged with conspiracy, mail fraud and wire fraud.

Vijay Myneni, arrested in San Jose, Calif.;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Venkata Guduru, arrested in New Jersey;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Praveen Andapally, arrested in New Jersey;charged with conspiracy, mail fraud, wire fraud, and making false statements in an immigration matter.

Amit Justa, arrested in New Jersey;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

Karambir Yadav, arrested in Louisville, Ky.;charged with conspiracy and mail fraud.

The maximum sentence for conspiracy is five years in prison and a $250,000 fine.The maximum sentence for mail fraud is 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.The maximum sentence for wire fraud is 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.The maximum sentence for making a false statement in an immigration matter is 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

The Department of Homeland Security has a multifaceted approach to detecting and investigating immigration and benefit fraud.ICE's Document and Benefit Fraud Task Forces were created in March 2006 to target and dismantle criminal organizations that threaten national security and public safety and close vulnerabilities in the immigration process.USCIS created the Fraud Detection and National Security Division (FDNS) to enhance the integrity of the immigration systems and to identify persons who pose a threat to national security or public safety. Reply

Dec 27, 2009 11:24 AM Elizabeth Vail Elizabeth Vail  says:
Cooperation between FDNS and ICE has helped to increase the incidence of enforcement actions.More information on these initiatives is available at www.ice.gov and www.uscis.gov.

The following agencies investigated or assisted in this case:U.S.Attorney's Office, Southern District of Iowa;U.S.Immigration and Customs Enforcement;U.S.Citizenship and Immigration Services' Fraud Detection and National Security Division;U.S.Department of Labor's Office of Inspector General;U.S.Postal Inspection Service;U.S.Department of State's Kentucky Consular Center (a field office of the Bureau of Consular Affairs);U.S.Diplomatic Security Service;U.S.Marshals Service;Social Security Administration's Office of Inspector General;Internal Revenue Service's Criminal Investigations;Des Moines Police Department;West Des Moines Police Department;Iowa Department of Transportation's Motor Vehicle Enforcement Office.

As with any criminal case, a charge is merely an accusation;a defendant is presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty.Because this investigation is in its early stages, it would be inappropriate to provide further details on the case at this time.As this is an open federal investigation, until further notice, the media is asked to direct any inquires on Operation Pacific Vision to the U.S.Attorney's Office, Southern District of Iowa's Public Information Officer, Mike Bladel at (515) 473-9342.No other agency is authorized to respond to questions on this matter.

www.ice.gov/pi/nr/0902/090212desmoines.htm

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Dec 27, 2009 12:48 PM Kim Berry - Programmers Guild Kim Berry - Programmers Guild  says:

Hi Don,

When you wrote "I understand that if you're unemployed because you've been displaced by an H-1B visa holder supplied by some corrupt company that's abusing the system..." are you including Bill Gates and Microsoft among the "corrupt companies"? Microsoft only hires top candidates, yet they have laid off several thousand workers in the past year. At the same time they are sponsoring thousands of H-1b workers. Congress makes "train your h-1b replacement" and "sponsor H-1b in spite of a stack of qualified U.S. applicants" legal - so is that corruption?

By your logic of being thankful that Congress has destroyed "only 35%" of U.S. tech jobs, we should not focus on the 3000 who died on 9/11, since that is a trivial percentage of the 300 million Americans who were not harmed. "God Bless you Congress and Osama for your mercy."

Congress have effectively capped tech salaries at $60k per year, but making that the cut-off where H-1b dependent employers can continue to hire H-1b, up to 100% of staff, without even considering qualified Americans. Is capping salaries a proper function of Congress? Might Americas "best and brightest" decide to pursue law or banking, where the chances of earning a six figure salary is higher?

Why don't you get off your ivory tower for a day and focus on why Congress is still flooding in H-1b workers to fill jobs that Americans are available to fill and NEED? Consider my daughter, for example. She spent nearly six figures getting a BS and MS in Engineering from USC. Then she sees that USC is encouraging employers to hire foreign students rather than American grads because "they are cheaper"

www.programmersguild.org/docs/stephanie_job_11sept2009.html

Obama wants to create jobs. The first step should be to STOP GIVING AWAY U.S. JOBS! SUSPEND H-1B AND L-1 NOW!

Mr. Kim Berry

www.programmersguild.org

FACEBOOK: tiny.cc/PGFACE - become a fan

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Dec 28, 2009 9:14 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Elizabeth Vail

Don's gonna wish he really was Raul the Costa Rican cabana boy once global labor arbitrage gets done with America. Meanwhile, here's another example of our little culture clash: www.vdare.com/sanchez/091227_tunnel_rat.htm

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Dec 29, 2009 1:02 AM Susan Chesterfield Susan Chesterfield  says:

Visa Fraud Sparks Many Arrests Nationwide

An ongoing federal probe into H-1B visa fraud leads to many arrests and the indictment of IT services firm Vision Systems Group The controversy over the H-1B visa program for cheap labor workers is heating up once again. Federal agents detained many Indians in six states as part of a wide investigation into suspected visa fraud, those arrested are accused of fraudulently representing themselves or other workers in immigration documents. Besides the arrests, Vision Systems Group, an IT services firm based in South Plainfield, N.J., with a branch office in Coon Rapids, Iowa, was indicted on 10 federal counts, including conspiracy and mail fraud charges. The firm allegedly used fraudulent documents to bring H-1B visa workers into the U.S. The government is seeking the forfeiture of $7.4 million from Vision Systems that was gained through the alleged offenses. Five other technology companies, including Worldwide Software Services and Sana Systems in Clinton, Iowa, remain under investigation for document fraud, prosecutors said. "We are only at the tip of iceberg as to where this leads.

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Dec 29, 2009 1:07 AM Stop The Fraud Stop The Fraud  says:

H-1B's are Highly Skilled at Highly Fraud

A federal lawsuit in Iowa alleges that two men orchestrated a scheme to underpay workers who came into the country on H-1B visas. Urbandale is a thriving residential suburb of Iowa's capital city, Des Moines. Go to its Web site and you'll see a picture of a charming gazebo and the claim that Urbandale is "a growing city that has held onto its small-town charm." Part of that growth includes the U.S. headquarters of Pacific West, an IT consulting firm that employs both U.S. and H-1B visa workers from overseas. It is there, in a nondescript six-story office building at 2600 Aurora Ave., that dozens of skilled workers, mostly from India, were supposed to be working in 2004 and 2005. But according to a federal lawsuit filed on Dec. 16 in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Iowa, some of those who came to work for Pacific West didn't get to enjoy the town's charms, or the computer programing or engineering jobs they expected to fill. A federal grand jury charges that in fact many of the workers wound up on the East and West coasts, working for companies that had nothing to do with technology.

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Dec 29, 2009 1:12 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Stop The Fraud

Thank you for sharing this. I would point out that this BusinessWeek article is from last February, and that it's not news that fraud and abuse are huge problems with the H-1B visa program. It's obviously critical that these problems be fixed.

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Dec 29, 2009 4:19 AM U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services  says:

Government Report Documents H-1B Fraud Companies overstate a shortage of qualified personnel so they can hire lower-cost H-1B holders. Indian outsourcing companies receive an inordinately large share of the visas. Some companies outright scam the system. A new report by the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) provides plenty of fodder for the latter claim. According to the report, 13 percent of H-1B applications filed on behalf of employers are fraudulent and another 8 percent contain some kind of technical violations. As I wrote last summer, there is a surprising dearth of solid data on the H-1B program. The USCIS report marks the first time a government agency has documented such systematic problems, notes a BusinessWeek story. Ron Hira, an assistant professor of public policy at the Rochester Institute of Technology who is frequently interviewed about H-1Bs, says the report shows a "desperate need for an auditing system."

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Dec 29, 2009 4:27 AM Human Trafficking and Human Smuggling Human Trafficking and Human Smuggling  says:

Human trafficking and human smuggling represent significant risks to homeland security. Would-be terrorists and criminals can often access the same routes and utilize the same methods being used by human smugglers. U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Human Smuggling and Trafficking Unit works to identify criminals and organizations involved in these illicit activities.

Human Trafficking is the recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, or obtaining of a person for labor or services, through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for the purpose of subjection to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery. Sex trafficking occurs when a commercial sex act is induced by force, fraud, or coercion, or when the person induced to perform such acts has not attained 18 years of age.

Human Smuggling is the importation of people into a country via the deliberate evasion of immigration laws. This offense includes bringing illegal aliens into a country, as well as the unlawful transportation and harboring of aliens already in a country illegally.

Some smuggling situations may involve murder, rape, and assault. The perpetration of violent crime in itself does not constitute human trafficking, because its elements remain fraud or coercion for commercial sex or forced labor.

In the fight against human smuggling and trafficking, ICE has developed highly successful initiatives that focus on attacking the infrastructure that supports smuggling organizations as well as the assets that are derived from these criminal activities. This might include seizing currency, property, weapons, and vehicles.

One of the new tools that helps ICE fight human smuggling and trafficking is the issuance of Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act (CAFRA) notices to property owners whose properties have been identified as being used to facilitate smuggling or harboring aliens. This is an important tool because many employers turn a blind eye to the facilitation of criminal activity on their properties.

ICE is committed to preventing the smuggling and trafficking of persons through initiatives, tools and resources that effectively impact organizations engaged in these practices.

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Dec 29, 2009 5:22 AM Anita Bonghit Anita Bonghit  says:

The only way to fix this mess is to send the bastards packing back to India or any other third world country from which they come. Call and write to your sentators and congressmess and demand they suspend the H-1B/L-1 and similar guess worker programs. Demand that they tax companies highly that send American jobs offshore and make it illegal to send any tax payer money be it State or Federal to offshore workers. Give the current H-1Bs 90 days notice to leave the country or by jailed, fined and banished. Any company that hires an American in place of a foriegn worker should receive Zero tax liability for 1 year or until they leave which every is earlier. Maybe even a siginifcant tax credit on top of that. These simple things would turn the economy around in 90-180 days and reduce unemployment to below 5% with in 6 months.

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Dec 29, 2009 6:09 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

"That readers almost never make posts like this under their own names says a lot to me. It will always puzzle me why people who present themselves as feeling strongly about a topic don't feel stongly enough about it to have the courage to step out from behind the shadow of anonymity."

Corporate propagandists dont get blacklisted, Don. It doesnt take a lot of guts to suck up to the powers that be, like you're doing here.  Amd besides, most people are presenting an argument based on evidence, not personal credibility.  Anyone can check to see if it's true or not

And besides, we DO put our names on paid work, just as you do

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Dec 29, 2009 6:14 AM Endless H-1B/L1 Visa Fraud Endless H-1B/L1 Visa Fraud  says:

According to BusinessWeek, most of the problems were uncovered during site visits to 246 companies that filed H-1B petitions. Among the issues: visa holders who had never worked at the location given in the application, workers paid below the prevailing wage, and workers performing job duties that were significantly different than those listed on the application. Accounting, human resources, business analyst, sales and advertising were among the occupations most likely to involve fraud, though problems were also documented with managerial and computer-related occupations. The report hints that USCIS will implement procedural changes to address the problems.

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Dec 29, 2009 6:31 AM Top 6 Entrepreneurs in the US  Top 6 Entrepreneurs in the US  says:

The following are in Jail or will be in Jail very soon:

1) Rajj Rajaratnam (Largest insider Trading Fraud EVER! YES Ever!).

2) Sanjaay Kumaar: Pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice and securities fraud charges in a massive accounting scandal.

3)Vivek Wadhwa: Number 1 H-1B PIMP of All PIMPS!

100% a total Fraud and a traitor to the US.

4) Narendra V. Mandalapa: Immigration-fraud. Had forged immigration papers for more than 250 foreigners. "He caused all of those people to work and live illegally in the United States".

5) B. Ramalinga Raju, and eight others for stealing millions of dollars from the company.

6) Sushil Bansal, charged with bribery of a public official, money laundering, wire fraud and conflict of interest. I could go on and on, too many to list here. Hopefully you get the idea.

Just the FACTS! Please look them up.

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Dec 29, 2009 6:46 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

At some point you need to recognize that the reckless-accusation response only goes so far. Nothing in your response makes me less thankful that the men who signed the Declaration of Independence weren't intimidated and afraid of being "blacklisted." In any case, I'm comfortable that on this topic, there's a much greater fear of being identified as mean-spirited, snide, intolerant and hateful than of being "blacklisted." I'm just sayin'

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Dec 29, 2009 7:15 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, is your skull really this thick?

you say " Nothing in your response makes me less thankful that the men who signed the Declaration of Independence weren't intimidated and afraid of being "blacklisted." "

Don, you kind of HAVE to sign your name when you're overthowing an entire government and founding a new one with yourselves as the new leaders - it clarifies who's in charge if and when you win?!?!

We're not overthrowing the government, Don, We're not expecting to be in charge of a new government if our position prevails.  And no, they wouldnt have been blacklisted if they lost - they would have been hung.

Are you trolling us Don, or are you really this dense?  If it's an odd sense of humor, that's ok, but if you're serious, it's really scary that you were an NSA analyst

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Dec 29, 2009 7:37 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

I really don't think it's that complicated. They didn't have to sign it at all. And yes indeed, they would have been hung, not blacklisted. I don't think they signed it because they wanted to have a leadership position if it worked out well. I think they signed it because they were prepared to stand up, with their own signatures for all to see, for what they believed in, regardless of the cost. If that concept is difficult to understand, I think that's part of the problem we face.

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Dec 29, 2009 8:44 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Apples and oranges from Don, as usual. He wants us to out ourselves. The basic fact is, in the 21st century (as opposed to the 18th) we can fight just as effectively, if not more in some cases, without doing that. This is a false argument. Ad hominem and red herring, for starters. There is no logical necessity for us to behave like the signers of the Declaration of Independence in this fight, because this fight is different. No reason whatsoever why we should not avail ourselves of the tool that is the Internet however we are able to enlist its resources in our battle. Don might as well argue that we should ride Percheron horses and wear chain mail and carry lances, and challenge our adversaries to an open joust, otherwise we are merely ignoble brutes. Don't fall for this, he is totally making his argument up.

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Dec 29, 2009 11:43 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Anita Bonghit

That readers almost never make posts like this under their own names says a lot to me. It will always puzzle me why people who present themselves as feeling strongly about a topic don't feel stongly enough about it to have the courage to step out from behind the shadow of anonymity.

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Dec 29, 2009 11:55 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

What argument? I'm not making an argument -- I'm just making an observation. I made the Declaration of Independence analogy just to underscore my own belief that if a person strongly believes in something, he should have the courage to say it and stand up for it without hiding, regardless of the consequences. So yes, I do indeed believe that the "joust" should be open. If you disagree, that's fine. On a less lofty, more practical level, I think it matters in a discussion like this not because of some sinister conspiracy to "out" anybody, but because hiding in anonymity makes a person much more likely to adopt a temperament of recklessness and mean-spiritedness that I believe is counter-productive. Scoff at that as a "Miss Manners" approach if you will, but I've found that that temperament has achieved little of lasting value. As I've said before, I guess we'll see how effective it turns out to be in this case.

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Dec 29, 2009 12:19 PM Doc Savage Doc Savage  says:

Once again another fool that thinks they know IT displays his/her ignorance as to the real issue. India is sending us high school equivalent educated persons to fill jobs that need Masters level engineers. And corporate America is willing to take them in as subpar paid slaves in order to bring up their bottom line.

Ever since the market in the United States has been flooded with these under-educated engineer-wanna-bees from China and India, the quality of workmanship has nosedived into the sea of mediocrity. Instead of coming out with a reasonably good product every three to five years, Microsoft (one of the world's largest employers of mediocre engineers) is now forced to reinvent a product every two years to cover the fact that the previous version of a product is sheer crap.

The truth Don is that we, as engineer parents with bright intelligent talented children, refuse to throw them to the wolves of the IT world and instead point them to other STEM disciplines that have meaning and a future in this country.

There is no refuting my point Don since I have spent the last 25 years in IT, 15 of them cleaning up after these very people that promote themselves as IT professionals. I have worked or contracted for HP, Intel, Tektronix, John Deere, Microsoft, NASA, JPL, Mazda, Toyota, GM, Northrup and then some and only those corporations where subpar talent  is not used is there a more time spent engineering and less time spent cleaning up the floor after the bloodbath of peer code review.

The old adage of "Walk a few miles in my shoes" fits here Don. Until you have lost your job and seen it shipped overseas or have had to train your subpar replacement, you really are just blowing smoke. Go blow it somewhere else.

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Dec 29, 2009 12:27 PM Doc Savage Doc Savage  says: in response to Don Tennant

Because of the fear of retribution Don. It is a well known fact that people are hired into HR positions just to peruse the net looking for postings from disgruntled employees or former employees. At which point the legal beagles are tuned in on the scent and track down the offenders with extreme prejudice.

Anonymity is our shaker of Cajun spices used to throw off the scent of these hounds from HR hell. And unlike us you are a corporate mouthpiece used to propagate misinformation and lies in order to maintain the status quo

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Dec 29, 2009 12:39 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don knows perfectly well what will happen to people in PC America if they get caught saying the wrong thing in an era where everyplace is looking to cut headcount. When I first learned about the H-1B, I still had kids at home, for crying out loud! Should my dependents pay for my activism? The answer is to solve the problem by ceasing the importation of surplus labor, not to out the whistleblowers. Surely Don has seen how readily they toss the "R" word around when it's not about race at all. They know better: they are trying to discredit Americans and get us fired.

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Dec 29, 2009 12:47 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Doc Savage

Well, OK. I guess all I can say is I'm thankful that the signers of the Declaration of Independence didn't feel that way.

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Dec 30, 2009 12:19 PM Todd Todd  says:

Two points (not having to do with H1B displacement)

1. Retiring boomers? I suspect that lots of boomer-aged STEM workers get retired long before they turn 65. Age discrimination is rampant.

2. See Dilbert. 40 years stuck in some crappy cubicle managed by a PHB? That's attractive?

Engineering (programming, electronics) make a great hobby... Career? Not so much.

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Dec 31, 2009 2:12 AM Train your H-1B Replacment or Else Train your H-1B Replacment or Else  says:

Total H-1B Fraud and Displacing U.S. Workers

The fraud identified in the announcement echoes patterns outlined in the October USCIS report. Specifically, Vision Systems Group is accused of filing petition requests with the government showing the H-1B visa workers would be employed in Iowa to take advantage of lower requirements for wage rates. But the workers were allegedly placed in locations on the East and West coasts. Whitaker says that by doing so, the company "dislocated and displaced United States workers that could have done those jobs." In other cases uncovered in the investigation, foreign workers have allegedly been placed in jobs and locations not previously certified by the Labor Dept., displacing qualified American workers and violating prevailing wage laws. The companies and foreign workers allegedly submitted false statements and documents to state and federal agencies supporting their visa petitions. The operation was conducted by federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies in Iowa, California, Massachusetts, Texas, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and New Jersey.

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Dec 31, 2009 2:25 AM Indians Equal to the Fastest GROWING segment of Illegal Aliens Indians Equal to the Fastest GROWING segment of Illegal Aliens  says:

The San Jose Mercury News notes that the fastest growing group of illegal immigrants comes not from a Spanish-speaking country but rather from India. YES! Indians Equal to the Fastest GROWING segment of illegal aliens

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Dec 31, 2009 2:56 AM Wage Slave Wage Slave  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don Tennant  says in response to Anita Bonghit: "That readers almost never make posts like this under their own names says a lot to me. It will always puzzle me why people who present themselves as feeling strongly about a topic don't feel strongly enough about it to have the courage to step out from behind the shadow of anonymity."

Don, Google your name. See how easy it is to get insight into you political views. Every IT manager I know does it. It doesn't cost them anything but a couple minutes of their time and can yield volumes of information.

The labor market is brutal already. Why would anyone want to make it worse for themselves?

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Jan 1, 2010 1:00 AM We MUST ABOLISH ALL H-1B/L1 Visas ASAP! We MUST ABOLISH ALL H-1B/L1 Visas ASAP!  says:

The Labor Department said the number of new jobless claims rose to a seasonally adjusted 637,000, from a revised 605,000 the previous week.

Before any rebound can happen, first we must Abolish ALL visa's which are being used to replace American Workers with cheap cheap labor labor from the 10th world countries.

American worker replacement that has been ongoing for 20 years.

Visas that are used to place workers from abroad in professional positions include: H-1B, H-1B1, TN, E-3, L-1, and J-1.

Total visas issued in these categories from years 1989 through 2008: 7,053,656.

This means that, if the visas were used to push Americans out of the job market in the STEM fields, the way they are commonly being used today, then over 10 million US workers have already been forced to leave their professions since 1989 and take other jobs.

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Jan 1, 2010 1:02 AM Indians involved in major US H1-B visa racket Indians involved in major US H1-B visa racket  says:

US Federal authorities have claimed to have unearthed a major H-1B visa racket with the arrest of at least 11 persons, most of them suspected to be of Indian origin. The names released indicated that almost all of them are either Indian or persons of Indian origin.

Vision Systems Group, an IT company HQ in S.Plfd NJ, has been indicted on 10 federal counts including conspiracy and mail fraud charge. Viswa Mandalapu is its CEO and president. US attorney Matthew Whitker alleged that Vision Systems Group, with a branch office in Coon Rapids, Iowa, used fraudulent documents to bring H-1B visa workers into the country.

The government is seeking the forfeiture of USD 7.4 million in proceeds raised through the alleged offenses. This is just the tip of the iceberg as far as this investigation goes, he said. Besides Vision System Groups, at least five other companies are under investigations because of their alleged visa fraud.

Two of them Worldwide Software Services and Sana Systems from Iowa. president of Pacific West Corp of Santa Clara CA, Praveen Andapally, president of Venturisoft Inc was arrested in NJ.

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Jan 1, 2010 1:51 AM So who votes at the Golden Globe Awards? 100% NOT Americans! So who votes at the Golden Globe Awards? 100% NOT Americans!  says:

Ever wonder why so many in Hollywood and media only promote non-American Trash Movies? Non-American Over-rated Trash Actors? Non-American Trash TV shows.

Well, Wake Up America! Our movie and TV industry has 100% been taken over mostly by the British or the Australian (Same). Thus the reason for why we have so much crap on TV and why most movies are soo Bad! Add to that just about in every ad or infomercial there is the crude British or Australian accent. Which means an American has been Replaced! Are you or your Family NEXT? Just a matter of time.

Beware of the Real and the worst kind of terrorist, a Anglophile!

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Jan 1, 2010 12:27 PM Tech firms faking job ads to avoid hiring US workers? Tech firms faking job ads to avoid hiring US workers?  says:

Tech firms faking job ads to avoid hiring U.S. Workers? Hewlett Packard has been accused of advertising for jobs it has no intention of filling -- at least with US citizens -- on the Idaho Department of Labor Web site.

HP is allegedly posting fake jobs online and in newspapers to fulfill the requirements of Uncle Sam's Program Electronic Review Management process. Resumes come in, Americans get winnowed out, and the PERM job goes to Enrique or Sanjay or Vladimir.

Meanwhile, HP recently announced it's slashing 24,600 employees as a result of its merger with EDS, half of them employed in the States. According to SiliconValley.com, "HP said it plans to replace about half those jobs with new positions performing other functions."

It will be interesting to see how they define "other functions." Of course, HP is hardly the only company suspected of doing this. Cisco has been accused of running similarly bogus ads.

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Jan 1, 2010 12:29 PM Banks Continue to Replace Americans with H-1B Visa Banks Continue to Replace Americans with H-1B Visa  says:

Despite Rising Unemployment, Banks Continue to Replace Americans with H-1B Workers. Amid last week's announcement that the nationwide unemployment rate has now climbed to 8.5% (Bureau of Labor Statistics), immigration experts and media reports have highlighted how banks who received funding from last year's $700 billion federal bank bailout are utilizing the H-1B visa program to replace American workers with cheap foreign labor. This discrimination against American citizens in favor of foreign workers continues despite legislation aimed to prevent this. In February, Senators Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and Chuck Grassley (R-IA) successfully attached the "Employ American Workers Act" (EAWA) to the stimulus bill. On Thursday, March 30, WSOCTV in Charlotte, North Carolina revealed that bailout recipients Wachovia and Bank of America are utilizing a process known as "on-shoring" to allow them to continue to lay off American workers and replace them with H-1B visa holders.

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Jan 2, 2010 11:06 AM Computer Science as a career Computer Science as a career  says:

This article shows that the writer has no clue of how things work in the real world. I am very well educated and I have noticed that many companies (especially the companies that use stock options for CEOs and upper management) DO NOT want to train its employees.

Their position has always been to try to find a candidate who matches 100% for as little pay as possible. This is what happened in the Computer Science field (thru outsourcing) and now no smart kid in the US wants to even bother with Computer Science as a career.

You have to be generally in the top 10% of class to be successful in Computer Science or Electrical Engineering since these are fairly hard subjects and requires very hard work. Instead the bright students simply choose Medicine, Law or Financial Engineering and go to WallStreet (before 2009).

May be it is time to start paying the CEO less. No one is worth $100 million a year as salary. The CEOs are free to earn a huge amount by starting a company if they are so smart, like Bill Gates or Buffet, not just get paid obscene amount of salary to simply outsource jobs and meet quarterly earnings and make out like a bandit and lobby Congress for H1B visas! yech!

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Jun 24, 2010 11:15 AM itgrunter itgrunter  says:

So, John Deere says they need more H-1Bs while laying off thousands. Yeah, some hangup you bozo!

blog.vdare.com/archives/2010/06/24/john-deere-ceo-says-us-needs-lots-more-h-1bs/

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