The American Dream Need Not Be Realized in America

Don Tennant

It's obvious that there's a great deal of resentment among many IT professionals who are either unemployed or underemployed and who are watching as growing numbers of people from other countries fill this country's IT job ranks. What's more difficult to see is where this demographic change is heading, and what IT workers need to do to cope with it.

 

If many of the resentful had their way, non-immigrant visas would be abolished, and anyone here who holds one of those visas would be rounded up and shipped back to wherever they came from. But given that saner minds will prevail and the IT workforce will continue to be a global one, how can U.S. IT workers turn that reality to their advantage?

 

The answer is right under our noses. It lies in recognizing that if the IT workforce is global, it follows that the employment opportunity is global. When people from other countries see that the employment outlook in their own country is bleak, they begin considering opportunities outside of their home country. Yes, the sacrifice can be a formidable one. The idea of pulling up stakes and moving far away from family and friends can be difficult to consider. But if people from other countries can do it, why can't we? My response is that we can, and we will.

 

According to an article in the January issue of HR Magazine, Manpower Inc. estimates that in the next 20 years, half a billion people will legally work outside of their home countries. That's a 100 percent increase over the number of people who do so today. David Arkless, president of global corporate and government affairs at Manpower in London, says that increase will come "due to conflict, natural disasters and climate change, and economic opportunism."

 

Whatever the reasons, the sooner we recognize the reality that that's where things are heading, the better equipped we'll be to position ourselves favorably in the shift. It's time we expand our horizons. For starters we can begin making full use of international job boards like International Job Search, International Jobs and jobsabroad.com.


 

Of course, there are obstacles. Arkless explained one of them in the HR Magazine article:

"In Europe, we've lost 10 million jobs because of the recession, but we can't fill 3.5 million skilled positions. The school system isn't producing the necessary skilled workers. At the same time, the European Union is erecting barriers to immigration of skilled workers from countries outside the EU."

If that obstacle sounds familiar, it's because it's the same one faced by those who argue that the H-1B visa cap should be raised, as the article points out:

The story is similar in the United States, where numbers of graduates in science, technology, engineering and math have flattened to roughly 225,000, well short of the estimated 400,000 needed by 2015, according to the Business-Higher Education Forum, a coalition of chief executive officers, university presidents and foundation leaders. In addition, U.S. executives have failed to persuade Congress to lift the cap on the annual number of H-1B visas for skilled immigrants.

Now, my own view is that the H-1B cap should not be raised until the ongoing problems with H-1B fraud and abuse are fixed. But what's clear is that the sooner this type of problem is overcome and the barriers to the free flow of skilled workers between countries are lifted, the better off the global IT workforce will be.

 

In the meantime, the U.S. contingent of that workforce needs to be as open as workers from other countries have long been to looking beyond their own shores for opportunity-for what we like to call "the American Dream." It's worth noting that that term was coined in 1931 by James Truslow Adams in his book, The Epic of America. A reminder of how Adams defined it might be in order:

The American Dream is that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position.

That dream needs to be realized everywhere, not just within the borders of one country. Imagining its fulfillment in a place on a different continent could be the first step towards the attainment of one's full potential.



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Jan 21, 2010 1:07 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

It's nice to be nice - but it is killing us in some industries. Not just tech, but at the lower end of the job spectrum too. America needs ample jobs to open up right now at all levels - unskilled labor to upper white collar. that is what needs to happen, and when it does, Americans need to be able to compete for those jobs. The jobs must not be earmarked for foreign workers as happens (legally in most cases) with the H-1B program. Compare and contrast: right now they are caterwauling over on Immigration Voice and Trackitt about the recent USCIS memo that clarified what the proper employer/employee relationship should be for the H-1B. Nothing new, really, but something many of their bodyshops and personnel have been conveniently ignoring for years. After all, ICE doesn't come after H-1B overstays. From the howling, you'd think we were packing them into freight cars for a long cold ride to a bad place. Now compare what India did to get control over a foreign labor situation in their own country very recently: http://tinyurl.com/yc23wpj. All this hospitality has gotten us is abuse and joblessness from what I can see. America should be a technological wonderland by now with all the "help" we've brought in, but instead it is fraying at the seams and falling behind. Something different needs to happen. It is a form of insanity to continue doing what we've been doing for the last 10 years (i.e. high H-1B caps) and expect it to all of a sudden get wonderful for America. That doesn't make any sense.

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Jan 21, 2010 1:08 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

here you are Don

India to Chinese investors: No more visas, hire Indians

16 Sep 2009, 1919 hrs IST, Saibal Dasgupta, TNN

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News-By-Industry/Services/Travel/Visa-Power/India-to-Chinese-investors-No-more-visas-hire-Indians/articleshow/5019220.cms

So let me get this straight - you suggest that people who've had their opportunities shut off (by massive immigration in a downturn) look for work elsewhere, even though you conceed that the USA allows far more 'guest workers' than any other country.  Doesnt basic math suggest to you, that this is NOT a solution?  India's policy is give and take - we give, they take - what's ours in theirs, and what's theirs is theirs

Having the media suggest that you leave your demolished job market, only to experience first hand how one sided immigration policies are between the USA and everyone else is not a 'Dream' Don, it's a NIGHTMARE!

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Jan 21, 2010 1:30 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

and if you read the comments in that link in that article, you'll see most of the indians are screaming 'dey tuk our jerbs' when someone else does it to THEM (admitedly a few note the irony given the USA situation)

a lot of the anger expressed at Indians is based on such raw 2 faced behavior - such attitudes have always made people angry

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Jan 21, 2010 1:33 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Tom

If we were making the massive and visible incursions into their labor market that they made into ours, and hardship for their citizens became public, I am told by Indians I know that there would be riots in the streets. It simply would not be allowed. As long as it's only a tiny number of us compared to them, they will grudgingly allow it. But not becoming a major presence in strategic industries and causing financial ruin to local workers. No way.

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Jan 21, 2010 1:38 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Dolores

I've heard that too.

An H-1b I worked with told me that Indian farmers express frustration by setting fires in the streets.

Yet, in the USA, workers get brow-beaten for making comments on messageboards

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Jan 21, 2010 1:49 AM Blue Blue  says:

Don, India does not allow guest workers any more.  They have clearly stated that "Jobs in India are for Indians". Unlike  the United States, other countries are not full of greedy traitors. 

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Jan 21, 2010 2:06 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Blue

All the time spent on focusing on the countries that have unfair immigration laws and complaining about them is time not spent investigating opportunities elsewhere. I suggest we concentrate on the latter for a while -- it might yield some positive results and produce something that actually helps American workers find jobs.

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Jan 21, 2010 2:11 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

How about concentrating on grassroots lobbying for legislation to end the labor abuses and put the shady bodyshops out of business? How about data privacy laws that might prevent your medical records from being up for sale in an international chatroom? How about a business tax structure that rewards the practice of putting Americans back to work instead of out of work? How about business laws that encourage real, not phantom, GDP? 

That might work a lot faster than prying open the doors of India, Inc.

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Jan 21, 2010 2:17 AM Blue Blue  says: in response to Don Tennant

But Don, the main thesis of your blog post was that working abroad could be a key to success.  If ones career is within IT, the country in which IT jobs are being sent would be the logical destination.  So pointing out India's new immigration laws and statements made by the Indian government was not meant to be a doomsday post, merely a post stating a fact; that moving to India to gain employment may not even be viable.

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Jan 21, 2010 2:53 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

"All the time spent on focusing on the countries that have unfair immigration laws and complaining about them is time not spent investigating opportunities elsewhere. I suggest we concentrate on the latter for a while -- it might yield some positive results and produce something that actually helps American workers find jobs."

that's an asinine and arrogant refusal to address the issues that people gave you in sound rebuttles to this article

people have stately plainly and rationally why that is not a solution

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Jan 21, 2010 2:55 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

and just curious Don, are you taking this advice in your own household?

Is you wife looking for HR jobs overseas?

Cant you write your articles anywhere, using the internet?

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Jan 21, 2010 2:58 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Tom

Yeah, there's a big difference between us crying, "Boo hoo, I don't wanna go to no India." and India slamming the door on anybody trying to come there and get a job they've called dibs on for their own people. Don't you think we hear from American's who've looked into this very strategy in the past?

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Jan 21, 2010 3:25 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

Absolutely, on both counts. As I mentioned, we spent 17 years overseas, and we're definitely looking at overseas options. In fact, that's what gave me the idea to write this post.

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Jan 21, 2010 3:28 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Blue

You're right, moving to India to gain employment may not be viable for a lot of people. But there's a whole lot of world out there that isn't India.

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Jan 21, 2010 3:30 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

All of the points you raise here are good ones -- these are definitely some of the issues that need to be addressed in order to fix the problems we face.

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Jan 21, 2010 3:48 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

Ok you've made your point, that due to our government's policies of flooding our job market, that we might have to pick up stakes and leave everthing and everyone we know, and consider going to other countires, even though other countries arent as 'welcoming' as the our own country that displaced and betrayed us

But dont insult us calling that 'The American Dream', Don, it's neither

It's more like the END other 'The American Dream' as we've known it

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Jan 21, 2010 4:15 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

It's unquestionably the end of the American Dream as you and I and many others who have had the incredible, unearned good fortune of having been born in this country have known it. My own view is that it's just as important for people who didn't have the good fortune to be born in this country to share in that dream, but I recognize that's not a particularly popular view.

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Jan 21, 2010 4:51 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

'unearned'?!?!?!

You arrogant SOB, my ancestors came here in the mid 1800s and BUILT the state I live in.  My grandfather and father served in the US military defending this country as well, as countless other countries with their service AND thei (and my) tax dollars.  I've had more than one family member in the peace corps.  Our family has given in countles ways to people of other countries.  Dr Borlaug, of the Green revolution, is from my state and did more for India's hunger than any of these brahmin varna caste h-1b sharlitans ever did

The world's first computer was invented on salary time paid by my grandparent's taxes (and i bet that doesnt give away to you what state that is)

And after shouldering all of this you have the gall to say that I have no more rights in my own country than someone from India (who to the side of the Soviet Union in the cold war), becasue3 it doesnt satisfy your 'lofty goals' of World Socialism. 

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Jan 21, 2010 5:48 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

I disagree. Calling it unearned implies that we have no rights derived from citizenship. It devalues and invalidates the concepts of citizenship, borders, and national sovereignty. Not everybody out there likes us. Good fences make good neighbors. Some folks are downright hostile, and I don't just mean the underwear bomber. I've seen comments over the years in many different places from citizens of you-know-where claiming that their nation is a real nation, whereas we are a mere upstart entity and all of us just rode into town and who are we to prevent anyone else from doing the same? That anyone, in any numbers, should just be able to come here and do whatever because that's what we did (not really). I've heard them claim that it's unfair for an American to have access to an American job just because he was lucky enough to be born in America through pure chance. And this from the country that invented the caste system that defined people according to birth (janma)? That attitude towards us reeks of pure disrespect, like the arrogance of the bigger kid on the playground towards the new smaller kid. It's not the brown skin we are reacting to, it's the contempt and rapaciousness that make us nervous.

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Jan 21, 2010 5:58 AM codecorrector codecorrector  says: in response to Don Tennant

Scary that your son is a Naval Officer, Don you sound like an American traitor.

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Jan 21, 2010 8:03 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

Calm down, Tom. Of course it's unearned. You and I did absolutely nothing to earn the blessing of having been born in this country. It was sheer chance. We drew two of the long straws. Roughly 1 in 20 babies born in the world every day is born in the U.S. That's a 5% chance, which are pretty long odds.

You mentioned that your father and grandfather served our country in the military. I sincerely thank them. My dad was laid to rest with full military honors at Fort Mitchell National Cemetery in Alabama after a lifetime of distinguished service. My son is a naval officer and has served two tours in the Persian Gulf. I served during the Vietnam War and proudly received The Air Medal, twice. When anyone is kind enough to thank us for our service, we tell them it was our honor, and it was. But that had nothing to do with the fact that we happened to be among the 5% who were born in this country. Those who actually served would be the first to understand that.

Now with all due respect, in addition to mentioning the service of your father and grandfather, you mentioned the contributions of other family members and other people from your state, and you somehow extrapolated from that that you did something to earn having been born here. That doesn't make any sense. And I did NOT say that you have no more rights in your own country than someone from India. Of course you have more rights-you're a citizen of the country. What I said was the blessing of having been born here was unearned. No one ever did anything to earn being born anywhere. You can do things to earn bounties and privileges during your life, but to say you somehow did something to earn having been born here is just nonsensical.

So my point was simply that the fact that we happened to be in the 5% of those babies who were born in this country does not mean that we are somehow inherently more entitled to lives of opportunity and prosperity than someone who happened to be among the other 95%. That's all. It's really not all that lofty of an outlook-it just seems like a given to me.

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Jan 21, 2010 8:26 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

You wrote: 'I disagree. Calling it unearned implies that we have no rights derived from citizenship. It devalues and invalidates the concepts of citizenship, borders, and national sovereignty.'

Dolores, please see my response to Tom. Of course we have rights derived from citizenship. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that we somehow did something to earn the blessing of having been born here, and to enjoy those birthrights. We didn't. We did nothing more to be rewarded with the bounty of having been born in this country than a Haitian did to be born in his country. We were just plain lucky. So it's difficult for me not to want the same things for people from other countries that I want for the people of our own country. They deserve opportunity and prosperity just as much as we do.

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Jan 21, 2010 8:50 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to codecorrector

If I'm an American traitor because I believe that people from all countries are equally deserving of opportunity and prosperity, then I plead guilty.

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Jan 21, 2010 9:08 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

But surely you can see one simple thing: all the people who want to come here and live in our conditions and have jobs and homes here simply won't fit! It wouldn't be America any more if we just opened the gates. It's a much better course of action for them to learn what they like about us that they covet and apply that learning upon their own societies. That was the original purpose of the student visa. Nobody is saying that we somehow merited being born in America - that would imply reincarnation and karma, or a Mormon-style pre-existence. But now that we're here, yes, the government is supposed to regulate access to America (of all kinds, immigration, temporary work, etc.) with OUR welfare in mind, just the same as other countries are supposed to take care of their own. That's why we have countries. I am an IT hiring manager at a major internationally renowned research university. We have nobel laureates teaching here. One spring day I walked past a sports field. Various groups of students were there enjoying the warm weather. Some were throwing frisbees, some playing music, a variety of activities. Then, just for a lark, I mentally multiplied the bodies on the field by 4. It wasn't pretty anymore. Nobody is saying that other peoples don't deserve happiness and prosperity. But not at our expense. And they would universally say the same if the situation were reversed. The problems in other countries need to be fixed there. Many of those nations could be paradises. It's not necessarily our fault when they aren't, and we can no more fix or rescue the whole world than we can police it. I remember when the founder of the Hare Krishna movement came here and travelled around America. His take was that we have all this vacant land, why don't we let Indians come settle here? He was talking about our large farms and ranches, our parks and national forrests, and our open spaces. I think we who have no homeland to return to need to be given some say in our own national destiny.  The people who want to come here won't fit.

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Jan 21, 2010 9:40 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Dolores

" I remember when the founder of the Hare Krishna movement came here and travelled around America. "

Dolores, I think you'd have more luck trying to reason with a Hare Krishna, than with Don.

(If there's anything positive about about hightened terror alerts, it's that we got the damned hare krishnas out of the airports- I remember our school campus was overrun with those cult scum)

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Jan 21, 2010 11:03 AM Dolores Dolores  says:

Two reasons why this won't work:

1. Given the currency and wage differentials, it's great for them to come here, but a losing proposition for us to go there. We'd have a hard time saving up for the ticket home, whereas they jet back and forth all the time.

2. Their countries are smarter than ours: they don't let hundreds of thousands and even millions of us in freely like we did for them. They know better.

The shouting about shortages of US STEM graduates is just a lot of bullwash. The US regularly produced more native STEM grads than it generates jobs for, not even counting all the foreign competition. If our kids are shying away from math, science, and tech careers its not because they're dumb, but because they're smart. They saw what happened to their parents and neighbors who went that route. 

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Jan 21, 2010 11:06 AM P Henry P Henry  says:

Don, you really have to get a new subject.  I realize you focus on the H-1B because it's "controversial" and you can get a lot of readers by trying to piss off American IT workers but it really is getting old.  That being said, it's amazing that you use Europe as an example as to why we need more imported slaves.  If they can't find enough skilled labor after losing 10 million jobs and America supposedly can't find enough skilled labor with +10% unemployment, we're supposed to believe that the answer is more workers from the third world?  You've actually proven that these scumbag companies aren't really interested in "more skill labor".  They are interested in "more cheap skilled labor", i.e. H-1B slaves. 

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Jan 21, 2010 12:12 PM Jay Jay  says:

Eventually this will happen as income disparities get ironed out. We see this trend happening already as incomes have been rising in many Asian countries but have remained stagnant or even decreased in America.

A good case study may be Japan. It started out as a country making cheap low quality exports. But now they have emerged as a technology giant making very high quality, expensive exports and their incomes have exceeded the west. Similar examples are S. Korea and Taiwan. They all have become industrialized, technologically advanced, high income-earning countries. There's no way to deny this, one just have to take a good look at the history of these countries or even pay a visit. There are already many westeners living and working in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong...etc taking advantage of the thriving Asian economy. It's common to see Universities in those countries hiring English teachers from the west.

As income disparities shrink, which is bound to happen, it would facilitate more exchange of workers between countries and reduce the disadvantage Americans have now due to the cost of living (and hence labor cost) difference between East and the West.

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Jan 21, 2010 12:18 PM J. L J. L  says:

Don most of the Best and brightest that came over here are neither best nor brightest.

What they really are is gullible.

They were sold a bill of goods.

They were told that Americans are lazy & stupid and if they come over and work for 50% of what Americans make they soon will be on the road to riches. They forgot to mention that even though they were paid 50% less (and billed out at 250%) they were top notch 'Pro's'.

Got to tell you Don, I'm an independent consultant and still make a pretty good buck and most aren't top anything (Always exceptions to the rule)!

This country will do just fine without them, and that's a fact.

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Jan 21, 2010 12:28 PM Tom Tom  says:

Don, your whole article presupposes that American CAN get into other countries to work.  Nearly every other country far more protects their countries from guest worker immigration, including (and especially) India.

And if you knew anything about this topic, you've already know that.

I've wondered in your last articles if you could be more clueless, and apparently, you can

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Jan 21, 2010 12:40 PM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

Don, do you realize you've written a series of at least 7 articles now, bashing Americans who question massive immigration during high unemployment?

WHy are you and most of the media, so rabidly one sided and anti-American worker?

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Jan 21, 2010 12:44 PM Dolores Dolores  says:

"Several" does not equal the millions of them that are here. There is NO visa program to let tens of thousands of us (nearly 200K for three years in the early part of the century) move there every year like we do for them. A few CAN get in, a mass movement NO! They have no intention of allowing this and they are a lot less polite about it than we are.

Let me look up some recent news for you and I will post it. Then tell me if the US and India are equally welcoming.

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Jan 21, 2010 12:46 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

Nonsense. I've bashed no one and have written nothing that was anti-American worker. To the contrary, I've consistently written in support of American workers. The only thing I've bashed is the practice of being reckless and hateful in addressing the H-1B issue, because I believe that practice ultimately hurts U.S. workers. I have bashed no one who engages in that practice.

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Jan 21, 2010 12:55 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Please do -- I'm sure that will be a positive contribution to the discussion. My understanding is that India is not nearly as welcoming as the U.S. is. In fact, I doubt that any country is as welcoming as the U.S. is. That's one of the things that makes me extremely proud of this country. We have set many wonderful examples that other countries would do well to follow, just as other countries have set examples what we would do well to follow.

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Jan 22, 2010 1:52 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says:

>>"f I'm an American traitor because I believe that people from all countries are equally deserving of opportunity and prosperity, then I plead guilty."

I'm sure that Hanoi Jane felt the same way with that dumb stoned smile whilst astride that Victor Charlie Ack Ack gun, not so long ago.

Seriously Don, this is a new low for you. I almost feel like calling my uncle the VN Vet and telling him I've found the legendary white viet cong. How does it feel to be the Tokyo Rose of your time? (to everyone else, these are all collaborators for the enemy d' Jour).

Of course, Donny Boy, in another 5-10 years this is all going to be moot, because we will have built up the Chinese and Indians, and most of 'em still don't like us. The Chinese have reason. The Indians, well... nobody else likes'em for reasons that will become obvious to you.

My point is NOBODY respects a collaborator. NOBODY. So I guess all that 'tourist' experience you had overseas will come in handy. I'm just wondering who will have you after reading about how you're selling your fellow Americans down the road by telling them to 'get out' of their own country to make room for your bottom-dollar slaves.

-Drunken Economist

  http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

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Jan 22, 2010 1:59 AM PaulRevere PaulRevere  says: in response to Don Tennant

Yes no doubt about you are a traitor.  By the way, you worked for NSA for 17 years overseas.  That does not count, find a non-government entitity that you can work for overseas.  Why would they hire you, when you are just a shill writer.

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Jan 22, 2010 2:06 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to Tom

Tom: THANK YOU. I was just about to rip him a new one. Why do you think I call him 'dumbass'?? See this link for my rebuttals to his whole sordid narrative to this point: http://is.gd/6MB6J

To which I will add:

"The American Dream Need Not Be Realized in America"

No, then it would be called "the (country xxx) dream." DUMBASS. If all these super geniuses are the best and the brightest, why don't they effect change in their own countries? If borders do not matter? Oh yeah, that's right. You want cheap slaves to fund your retirement when the dollah implodes and we do the Argentina watusi. Right.

Carry on, Mumbai Don....

-Drunken Economist

  http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

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Jan 22, 2010 4:26 AM Mike Mike  says:

Hey Don,

You seem to be ignorant of Chinese/Indian culture & history. Both of these countries have deep-seated resentments against whites because of Britain's colonization of them in the past 2 centuries. If Indian & Chinese workers come to the U.S. and deliberately keep Americans out of the IT workforce, then what makes you think they will hire Americans overseas? India currently has a mere 11,000 Americans working there. If India were to import American IT workers in the same per capita proportion as we import workers from India, India would have to issue work visas to 40 million Americans. There are no mass guest worker programs for Americans in India and China, or even in Japan for that matter. That combined with the huge wave of anti-Americanism worldwide means your idea is not only moronic, but won't work and can't work.

Where do you come up with these ideas without even knowing the facts yet?

The world is not globalizing. America is globalizing. China and India are still massively protectionist. Wake up to reality, Don.

You will recall the article a few years back by Robert X Cringely who went to the Indian embassy to try to immigrate India. They didn't know what he was talking about. So much for globalization.

India is getting what it wants because people like you keep pushing this nonsense and they keep lobbying (paying) our politicians. America's economy is "remaining global" because closing the doors and making sure U.S. citizens have jobs first is politicially incorret. Keep believing in the failed globalization and free trade mantra and watch as out economy continues to deteriorate.

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Jan 22, 2010 4:30 AM Mike Mike  says:

Besides Don,

In 1998 when the mass influx of foreign workers began, the agreement was they would all leave and go home. They are not only still here, but they have taken over. Why are you against honoring agreements, Don?

Futhermore, Title 8, Section 1182 says any foreign worker who negatively impacts an American workers is an INADMISSIBLE ALIEN. They law says these people cannot be in the U.S. if Americans are negativey impacts, as American IT workers obviously are.

So why are you against enforcing THE LAW Don? Or is it that old radical hippies like you don't respect the rule of law, but only your own personal agenda (international socialism). Are you in favor of only selectively enforcing the law Don? Given the current recession, and the huge unemployment among America's IT workers, all foreign IT workers should be deported immediately. It's THE LAW, Don - go read it.

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Jan 22, 2010 4:39 AM Mike Mike  says:

"When people from other countries see that the employment outlook in their own country is bleak, they begin considering opportunities outside of their home country."

WRONG! When peopl from other countries see that the employment outlook in their own country is bleak, their governments begin rounding up foreigners and deporting them. Japan is doing that right now Don - even deporting people who were born in Japan but whose parents were foreign and in Japan illegally when they were born. Why do you have such a hard time understanding the concept of citizenship Don? Every other country on earth has laws protecting its own citiens first in employment. America does too, but with liberal morons such as yourself in positions of power, those laws are being ignore. What is it going to take Don, before dried out old lefties like you get it Don? Is it going to take a full-scale invasion by India or China or maybe a nuclear war Don?

If you do not value what you have, you will lose it Don.

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Jan 22, 2010 4:49 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don,

Why don't you do an entire article on Title 8, Section 1182 and how every foreign guest worker in the U.S. in times of recession is an INADMISIBLE ALIEN? You're not in favor of ignoring the law, are you Don?

TITLE 8 CHAPTER 12 SUBCHAPTER II Part II

1182. Inadmissible aliens

(5) Labor certification and qualifications for certain immigrants

(A) Labor certification

In general, any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that-

(I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified

(or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and

(II) the employment of such alien will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States similarly employed.

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Jan 22, 2010 4:59 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

Come on, Dolores. First,  in response to my statement that we have the 'incredible, unearned good fortune of having been born in this country,' you said, 'I disagree. Calling it unearned implies that we have no rights derived from citizenship.' When I challenged you on that, you said, 'Nobody is saying that we somehow merited being born in America - that would imply reincarnation and karma, or a Mormon-style pre-existence.' Exactly. Then why did you disagree with my statement in the first place?

Now you're claiming that I'm arguing that 'an American shouldn't have first consideration for a job in America simply because being born here is luck,' and that's the argument you chose to refute. The problem is I never said that. What I said was that the luck of having been born here doesn't inherently entitle us to more opportunity and prosperity than anyone else. If you disagree with that, you need to argue against that, not against some random extrapolation of it that suits your purpose.

All I'm doing is stating a core belief of mine about the inherent equality of all people regardless of nationality, which is why it matters just as much to me if someone from Haiti or Laos or Germany or Iran is downtrodden as it does if someone from the U.S. is downtrodden. That's all. If you disagree, argue against that, not against some argument that you make up and attribute to me. You simply can't randomly extrapolate from what I'm saying that I'm claiming that someone from Laos can come into the U.S. and enjoy all the rights and privileges that we have as citizens, and that a citizen shouldn't be given first crack at a job opening over this Laotian. That's an extremely easy argument to refute, but it's not my argument. 

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Jan 22, 2010 5:01 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, you seem to think that people who have succcess here was because they were born here. Has it ever occured to you that American workers deserve more success than people from other countries because they are more productive than anyone else? A 2007 UN/ILO report said that Americans rank #1 in productivity and Indians rank 54th in world productviity. India has been around 5000 years. America, merely 500. America was empty 500 years ago. Were the people born here then merely 'lucky' to have been born here? No, they went out and worked their tails off to build America. Up until the foreign invasion of IT in late 1998, the American IT industry was 98% white American males Don. White American males worked 16 hour days for 2 decades while India was sitting around doing nothing. And now you have the gall to say we were successful just because we happened to be born here? You are a communist Don - who think that all people and all cultures are equal and everyone should have the same amount of success and no one should have more than anyone else - even those who are more productive than others - massively more productive than others. Why are you unable to admit that sucess and wealth are not mere chance but are the result of honesty and hard work Don? India does not deserve a single American IT job because India did not help create the IT industry. In fact, if the past decade is any indication, they've done nothing but destroy jobs. Why should we keep rewarding people who have proven they can't perform Don? Why don't you just come out and write an article on what you are really trying to push: international socialism. This isn't the 60s anymore Don, despite what you think. We need to return to Reagan's protectionsim which created 25 years of brilliant American success and invention, not more failed globalizationa and open borders Don.

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Jan 22, 2010 5:05 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Tom

Don,

I have a good idea: Since Americans had to bleed and die for this country in order to save it (multiple times), which millions of foreign workers now enjoy, why don't we just institute a requirement that all foreign guest workers must first serve 3 years in our military including on the battlefield first and only then would they be elligible to work here. I think you would find in that case that many of them would not want to come. They want to come for what is here to take, not for what they can 'contribute'. Let them prove they really love America and are willing to die for her first. If they can't prove that then they don't deserve America Don.

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Jan 22, 2010 5:09 AM B B  says:

Employers can legally discriminate against qualified Americans by firing them without cause and recruiting only H-1B guest-workers to replace them.  The U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has said:  'H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of a foreign worker.'  Some companies that discriminate against American workers are so brazen that their job advertisements say 'H-1B visa holders only.'  And some companies in the United States have workforces that consist almost entirely of H-1B guest-workers.  

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Jan 22, 2010 5:11 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Don Tennant

Hey Don,

From 1982 to 1999 I spent nearly every waking second of my life as a natual-born U.S. citizen perfecting my IT skills and helping to build the IT inustry. During those same years, guest workers from India did nothing to build the IT industry. Keyboards were never even seen in India until 1989. They didn't start coming here in large numbers until 1998 - at the height of the IT boom. Odd that Indians didn't seem to concerened in doing the hard work in the mid-80s to early 90s in building the IT industry. Nope - they only wanted in after Americans had turned it into a booming economy.

And you are going to sit there and tell me as a natural-born American citizen who has worked to do all this that I have no greater right to a job in my own country than someone from a lazy 3rd world country who has never produced anything?

Come on Don, even you are strecthing the envelope. No American would believe what you are proposing,

Just admit the real fact is you are a 60s hippie communist who can't stand to see good Americans have the fantastic success we had in the 90s while India had nothing. You are in favor of wealth redistribution Don, and that is all the real purpose of your articles is.

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Jan 22, 2010 5:15 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Don Tennant

"So it's difficult for me not to want the same things for people from other countries that I want for the people of our own country. They deserve opportunity and prosperity just as much as we do."

Now we really see what Don's purpose is: communism. has it ever occured to you Don that people in those other countries don't deserve what we have here in America because they didn't work as hard or produce like Americans have? You are in favor of stealing from Americans and giving to other people. Americans who have worked all their lives to earn their jobs and careers do not deserve to have those careers taken away from them Don.

The real question here is: why can't these other countries create their own jobs and markets for their own people Don? Its because they are not as productive as we are Don. By definition if they are so much more brilliant than we are, they shouldn't need to come to America.

The rest of the world is poor because the rest of the world is lazy, corrupt, and unproductive Don. Bringing them here and giving them our jobs can only cause economic collapse, which by gosh, is what has happened.

So why don't we try deporting all these workers for 10 years and giving the jobs back to Americans and see if the economy improves when we put Americans back to work.

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Jan 22, 2010 5:18 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Don Tennant

Unproductive workers are not deserving of prosperity Don. As Nobel-prize winning economist Milton Friedman said, open borders and the welfare state are incompatible, Don.

Americans work hard to create the jobs and build up the industries, then once we hit a peak, the rest of the world who couldn't create anything on their own takes them over.

No wonder the world economy is such a mess.

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Jan 22, 2010 5:26 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Mike

You claim I'm proposing that as an American citizen you have no greater right to a job in this country than someone from a different country. I am proposing no such thing. Please see my response to Dolores. If you're inclined to disagree with anything I post, then refute what I actually said, not something you made up and attributed to me. And by the way, it shouldn't matter whether an American citizen is "natural born" or not.

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Jan 22, 2010 6:04 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Drunken Economist

I cannot believe that we are expected to erase our own borders and sovereignty simply to make the world happy. Not that they will be. Even we don't have enough jobs and wealth to satisfy them all. That would be suicidal for the United States and extremely unfair to the people already here.

Our record of military service and sacrifice alone surely entitles us consideration in our own land. Our record of investment and risk-taking does as well. The fact that we can't move around as easily as they can come here is a factor. Our lifetimes of paying taxes and our prior career investment here is yet another factor.

The argument that an American shouldn't have first consideration for a job in America simply because being born here is luck ignores all the other factors and is a new level of sophistry I have only heard from a few Indians in the past. This view will not fly with the American people, nor should it. 

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Jan 22, 2010 6:08 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Mike

(Time out.) "dried out old lefties" like me ... OK, I can't say that I agree with your way of thinking, but that was pretty funny. (Time in.)

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Jan 22, 2010 6:55 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Mike

Anyway, accusing me of being a communist because of the views I've expressed here is the type of recklessness that hinders the discussion and the effort to find solutions to our problems. That aside, you made a statement that I'm in favor of wealth redistribution. I suppose that's true to some extent, but I think most people are that way. Our aid to Haiti is wealth redistribution. If you had your way, would we stop spending millions of dollars to help them recover and let them sort things out on their own? Sending money to countries in Africa to try to alleviate some of the suffering there is wealth redistribution. Would you end that practice? Would you abolish USAID?

We definitely agree on at least one point: I absolutely believe that people who work the hardest should be rewarded the most. And I believe everybody should work hard and strive to reach his full potential. So when I say that I believe in the equality of people regardless of nationality and that people are equally entitled to opportunity and prosperity regardless of nationality, what I mean is that one person isn't more entitled to opportunity and prosperity than another person simply by virtue of his nationality. That should not be construed as an argument that all people are equally entitled to opportunity and prosperity regardless of the effort they make or how hard they work.

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Jan 22, 2010 7:14 AM odd1 odd1  says:

Even if US citizens were allowed to work in other countries, Americans are tied financially to homes and property they own. In a down market, there are no potential buyers and even if there is a buyer, the price they are willing to spend is often a loss for the owner. 

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Jan 22, 2010 7:43 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

I am challenging your assertion concerning the unfair luck of being born an American due to the fact that it is irrelevant to the argument of whether Americans should have primacy when it comes to job openings that pertain to the American economic ecology. Dismissing our birth as unmerited luck must not become an argument for elbowing us aside in our own nation.

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Jan 22, 2010 8:02 AM Tom Tom  says:

Just to get perspective on how BAD media people like Don treat the average American, in this week of Martin Luther King holiday, can you imagine if there were old 1960s film of a white person responding to claims of african americans that tthey were being discriminated against in the workplace, and that white person said "well, why dont they find their American Dream in another country"?

The media would play that film over and over and over again for decades

You all know that's true

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Jan 22, 2010 8:40 AM FedUp WithH1B FedUp WithH1B  says:

Don -- As usual, you are full of crap.  That's right -- Grade A Manure...

There is no way that any other country in the world is going to grant a work visa to an American while they have unemployed in their own ranks.  Other countries are not  as self-destructive as we are, and their parlimentary systems would fall fast if the electorate felt that Americans were getting jobs they could fill.

Further -- as someone else has mentioned, the wage differentials are not in the favor of the American.  Right now, you can't sell your belongings for anything less than a loss, and you can't make enough in other countries to have a decent living here, or retire back here.

Assuming that there is any truth to the government statistics (including the lie that we will have a shortage of STEM workers) is fraught with danger.  There never has been a shortage of STEM workers, and there probably never will be.  If there were a shortage, then wages would be rising fast.  Instead, they have fallen since 2000.

A number of years ago, when the H-1B visa allocations were even higher, and Americans weren't even getting calls back after hundreds of job inquiries, someone asked one of the Indian H-1B holders that they knew why Americans couldn't go to India and take jobs if Indians could come here.  The answer they were given was that the Indian workers would rise up and attack any Americans that tried to take a job in India.

How do you really think this "Global Job Market" is really going to work -- given the problems with nationalism and economic protectionism.

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Jan 22, 2010 10:31 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> " Why on earth would you say that I worked for the NSA for 17 years overseas when you have absolutely no idea whether that's the case?"

Gee Don, could it be your little bio that's as vague as the rest of your writings? Nawwwww. Re-write your bio into something concise. It reads like 17 years of porridge.

Thank you for elaborating on the fact that I pegged you correctly, that you're a tourist. Let me guess: every interaction with any local was in English only or in the presence of an interpreter, right?

You're the perfect person to tell locals to 'get out' of their own country.

Don't worry. My next blog will give readers REAL info, seeing as I'm a real expat of both the EU and NE Asia. Did I mention guys like me hate guys like you?

-Drunken Economist

  http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/

  http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

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Jan 22, 2010 11:20 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to PaulRevere

Wow. Why on earth would you say that I worked for the NSA for 17 years overseas when you have absolutely no idea whether that's the case? If you're going to be Paul Revere, you can't just gallop through the countryside yelling anything that comes to mind -- nobody will listen to you. If you're interested, I worked for 4 years in different capacities with the U.S. government; 3 years helping to establish an international school in Macau; and 10 years at Computerworld Hong Kong.

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Jan 23, 2010 1:00 AM Don Don  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, the Constitution says in the preamble

'For ourselves and our posterity'

what part of that dont you get?

this country was built with 5 generations of my family, and they did it for US, not for INDIA!!!  (although our family and state has given generously to the rest of the world in educational opportunities, foreign aid, military protection, food research, invention of the computer, peace corps volunteerism, generous direct giving on and on).  And you might say that my ancestors were 'immigrants too' in the mid 1800s.  But the population was 1/10th what it is today, and the louisinana purchase was only about 30 years old, and was a huge military vulnerability - they needed it settled by people with a compatable culture quickly.  It's absurd to beleive that a unique  oppoirtunity available at one time must be offered to everyone forever.

"But the hard work and sacrifice of those who came before us does not inherently make you or me more deserving of or entitled to opportunity and prosperity than someone who was born outside of this country. "

so what eactly, were we paying you for at the NSA?  Seems like the only part of that acronym you understood was "Agency" (which implies salary, benefits etc.)  Your concepts of 'National' and 'Security' need a little work

perhaps no one was more open borders than ted kennedy.  and few things were more unearned than hyanisport and their palm beach mansion.  think it would be ok for me to take a swim in one of their pools and say 'you didnt earn this, i have a right to enjoy it?'

if there's a difference between your attitude and communism, i have no idea what it woudl be

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Jan 23, 2010 1:56 AM Marcio Costa Marcio Costa  says:

Well, IMHO you guys didn't get Don's point here.

First, I would ask why many american lost their jobs. I would answer that it is a needed consequence of:

- Excess of credit/financial which created a bubble;

- Continuous deficits while foreign countries fund them;

- Globalization.

Look, if IBM can spend less money with Indian workers (or brazilian workers - where I live) this is a consequence of globalization and capitalism. Capitalism and democracy, IMHO, it is the american dream, actually; anything else, I should say, it is just blah blah blah.

So Don's comments are coherent. He is not being a socialist; he is just saying the consequences of globalization, which are directly related with capitalism expansion/US leadership. Which creates IT opportunities in Brazil and India. And the export of industry jobs to other places where they are way more cheaper - China, for example. Therefore, I think, maybe you are not arrogant or etc - just blind or unaware what american dream really is.

Regards,

Marcio

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Jan 23, 2010 2:33 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Marcio Costa

Marcio,

most of what you say is so circular that I'm not going to bother addressing it

but i will address the bubble comment, becasue it's an important topic that usually isnt mentioned in h-1b debate.

guest workers ABSOLUTELY enable bubbles!  rising wages are an economic signal.  holding down wages with guest workers is like putting duct tape over the oil light on you car so it doesnt bother you

it's no coincidence that both the tech and construction bubbles were also where the majority of guest workers went

guest workers do not create wealth, they destroy it

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Jan 23, 2010 2:43 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Don

Good grief. It just shouldn't be that hard to understand. You seem to be inferring that what I'm saying is that the freedoms and privileges that we enjoy as U.S. citizens are not our birthright. They are. Of course they are. You're right, that's spelled out in our Constitution. I know what's in our Constitution. Since you brought up my NSA service, I will tell you that I served in harm's way, both in the military and as a civilian, to defend our Constitution. You needn't express your appreciation for that, but at least forgive me if I'm disinclined to accept your chastisement in that regard.

I will explain my point again. All I'm saying is that to me, people are people. It doesn't matter to me what color or religion or nationality you are. I care equally about the wellbeing of all people, regardless of nationality. If you disagree with that viewpoint, then please refute that viewpoint. Do not attribute positions to me that I do not hold.

Now, to say that the freedoms and privileges that you and I enjoy are our birthright is very true. That's why we're so fortunate to have been born in this country. But to say that you and I did anything to merit or earn that birthright is not true. It was the luck of the draw. I make that distinction for no other reason than to point out that we shouldn't think of ourselves as more worthy of those freedoms and privileges than anyone else. It matters to me whether those freedoms and privileges are enjoyed by every human being, not just those of us who enjoy them due to the happenstance of having been born here. If it doesn't matter to you, then defend that position, but don't do it by misrepresenting mine.

I think we all know that communism is one of the most horrific destroyers of the wellbeing of society that has been endured in the history of the human race. It has been very painfully demonstrated that that's not the answer to improving the wellbeing of mankind. But it just doesn't follow that because communism is wrong, the ideal of improving the wellbeing of all mankind regardless of nationality is somehow wrong. That just doesn't make any sense.

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Jan 23, 2010 3:12 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to FedUp WithH1B

You're exactly right. The problems are nationalism and economic protectionism, and the blame for that should be placed globally. Until those problems are solved, the full measure of opportunity and prosperity that we yearn for will continue to elude us. That's the whole purpose of raising this topic for discussion. It may take generations. But I refuse to surrender to hopelessness and acquiescence and say it can't be done.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:04 AM Marcio Costa Marcio Costa  says: in response to Tom

Hi Tom,

Well, maybe it's not me being circular as you say; maybe it is just your refuse to argue against the fundamental point of this discussion.

But I will be fair and comment just about bubbles. You are completely missing the point about them. They are a full consequence of a non-sustainable growth generated by excessive finance/credit. Anything else you say, please sorry me, but you are being just reactive to foreigners. Which many times do the work that you are not willing to do, to be fair.

Regards,

Marcio

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Jan 23, 2010 5:12 AM publius publius  says: in response to Don Tennant

"who have had the incredible, unearned good fortune of having been born in this country have known it"   Memo to Don Tennant, you're missing the point.  It's not about you just being "lucky" to have been born in the U.S.   Whoever is born in the U.S. stands on the shoulders of those who did the hard, difficult, and often dangerous work to make our country, America, the great country that it is.  To ascribe "unearned" to our birthright and inheritance, of which we are the beneficiaries and stewards of those who sacrificed so much to make our lives and U.S. citizenship possible, is a direct insult to those before us who made our country the way that it is, and a blatant disregard of their hard work and sacrifice.  This disregard expresses an ungrateful sense of entitlement or ignorance of our nation's history, a sentiment seen so commonly expressed by many current immigrants and non-immigrant foreign visa workers, particularly those who come from a caste system.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:13 AM James James  says: in response to Marcio Costa

America does not have 'continuous" deficits. In the late 1990s BEFORE flooding the U.S. with guest workers we had a big surplus and Greenspan said to use it to pay down the national debt. Then we flooded the USA with millions of remittance-hungry people from India who drove productive Americans out of their jobs and the tax base collapsed as a result. Instant deficits. Learn some history.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:18 AM James James  says: in response to Don Tennant

"All I'm saying is that to me, people are people. It doesn't matter to me what color or religion or nationality you are. I care equally about the wellbeing of all people, regardless of nationality. If you disagree with that viewpoint, then please refute that viewpoint."

That's not what Federal law says Don. And whether you like what Federal law says or not, you have to obey it. Federal law most certainly does discriminate on nationality - or rather on citizenship - if you're working here, you're foreign, and you're not a citizen, you're an inadmissiable alien under the law. Inadmissible means you should be deported:

TITLE 8 > CHAPTER 12 > SUBCHAPTER II

Part II > 1182

1182. Inadmissible aliens

(5) Labor certification and qualifications for certain immigrants

(A) Labor certification

In general, any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that-

(I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified

(or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and

(II) the employment of such alien will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States similarly employed. (ii) Certain aliens subject to special rule For purposes of clause

(I), an alien described in this clause is an alien who-

(I) is a member of the teaching profession, or

(II) has exceptional ability in the sciences or the arts.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:26 AM James James  says: in response to Marcio Costa

Bubbles:

Tom's point is: what the media and Don call "bubbles" are really normal, strong, functioning economies created by Americans. The 1990s was not a bubble which was unsustainable: it was the result of 2 decades of Americans working very hard inventing IT. It only became a bubble after it was flooded with incompetent 3rd world labor who collapsed it. The media had to explain the failure away by saying it was a "bubble". In 1998 America had no competition in IT and the boom would have gone on forever if we had not disrupted it with mass influx of 3rd world labor who destroyed Silicon Valley.

Bubbles are simply the term the interntional bankers use to convince us that we as Americans shouldn't be rewarded well for our hard work.

Americans created the IT industry which is now the size of the entire Indian economy - 1.4 trillion or 1/10th of the total U.S. economy. It is absurd to think that guest workers from backwards countries who cannot make their own economies work can do anything to help America.

Now that foreign guest workers have taken over the IT sector in America and are keeping Americans out, the U.S. economy isn't doing so well is it? Common sense says don't keep doing things that don't work.

Don, are you prepared to continue to destroy American lives in the interest of "helping the world"? If so, who gets to decide who gets what? You? How much of your wealth should we give to the 3rd world? Why don't you give up your writing job here so some 3rd worlder can be employed instead.

The fact that you worked for the NSA tells me you are one of the co-opted people the globalists use to push this international communism agenda.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:31 AM James James  says: in response to James

Call it whatever you want Don, but taking things away from productive people and giving them to unproductive people is communsim - from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs. Except that now we're doing it on a global scale across countries via immigration, technology transfer, and globalization.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:42 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to James

Let me get this straight. You accurately quote me as saying 'people are people. It doesn't matter to me what color or religion or nationality you are. I care equally about the wellbeing of all people, regardless of nationality.' And then you say, 'That's not what Federal law says Don. And whether you like what Federal law says or not, you have to obey it.' Unbelievable.

You have taken my statement of a core belief of mine about caring equally about the wellbeing of all people regardless of nationality, and extrapolated from that that I'm claiming everyone regardless of nationality has the status of citizenship in this country. And that's the argument you chose to refute. Anyone can make a good argument against something that defies the obvious. I welcome your opposing viewpoint, but if you're going to disagree with me, disagree with what I say, not with something you make up and attribute to me.

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Jan 23, 2010 5:50 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to James

You wrote: "Tom's point is: what the media and Don call 'bubbles' are really normal, strong, functioning economies created by Americans."

I have written nothing about bubbles. Once again: Do not attribute statements or positions to me that aren't mine.

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Jan 23, 2010 9:16 AM Marcio Costa Marcio Costa  says: in response to James

Hi James,

I didn't say that US have continuos deficits. I just said that one of the causes of US's loose of jobs are deficits.

As you should know, this begins in Bretton Woods, when US dolars became the international pattern. Then Nixon eliminated the correspondence with gold reserves. This was so convenient (and still is currently) to US - as your treasure can keep exporting US's deficit to countries who has dollars and american's treasure papers. In fact, can be somewhat dangerous in these days, as China and Arabia has huge savings in these papers, as a result of huge superavits against US. This is talking about history and US's deficits. It is not poor guest workers willing to work for half (or less) your current pay check. In fact, your speech is the dream of white collars, as you deviate your attention from real facts to the sake of preconceptions.

Regards,

Mrcio

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Jan 23, 2010 10:57 AM Smith Smith  says:

You did say continuous deficits. The exact quote is:

"- Continuous deficits while foreign countries fund them;"

If China wasn't cheating on its WTO agreements (no currency manipulation, no dumping, no subsidies), then the U.S. wouldn't have a deficit and wouldn't have to borrow from the Chinese. In 1998 the U.S. had a surplus and didn't need to borrow from anyone. That was the same year we opened trade with China. U.S. also has huge trde deficits with Japan, India, Taiwan, and almost every European trading partner. You can't have massive trade deficits and not have to borrow. As former Fed chairman Volcker said "The world economy is lopsided". Trade is unbalanced in favor of Asia. Correct the imbalance and the U.S. won't have to borrow. So don't act like it is the fault of the U.S. that we have deficits - it's because of 'free trade' (which is only free in America), globalization, and unbalanced trade. If China would let its currency float, as all WTO agreements require, the U.S. would instantly get a $300 billion a year boost just from that one country alone. The world is living off unbalanced trade with the U.S. like a parasite.

How did the U.S. have a booming economy from 1982 to 1998 with only a few tiny short recessions if Bretton Woods was the cause? In fact, it was Reagan's protectionism instituted in 1982 that caused a 25-year boom. 10 years of "free trade", unbalanced trade, and globalization is the cause - and guest workers are part of free trade. Funny, but we had no economic problems for 25 years before globalization. Bretton Woods has nothing to do with the current problem. Unbalanced trade and protectionsim in China, India, and Japan, do.

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Jan 23, 2010 11:35 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to publius

Your argument is exactly backwards. An 'ungrateful sense of entitlement' is precisely what I was speaking out against when I said the good fortune of having been born in this country was unearned. What's insulting to those who came before us is taking credit for their hard work and sacrifice. You seem to be unable to distinguish that reality from the idea that the prosperity and opportunity we enjoy in this country was unearned. It was not. It was absolutely earned by the hard work and sacrifice of those who came before us. That's why we need to be grateful for the good fortune of having been born in this country. But the hard work and sacrifice of those who came before us does not inherently make you or me more deserving of or entitled to opportunity and prosperity than someone who was born outside of this country. If you're going to try to argue that you and I somehow merited being born in this country, you're going to have a very tough time of it, unless you're going to base your argument on reincarnation and something we did in a previous life, as another reader noted.

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Jan 24, 2010 1:34 AM Don't Yo Yo Me Man Don't Yo Yo Me Man  says: in response to Don Tennant

Guys !

Don, if you believe in global economy and hiring then it is cool to me. I think global hiring is really cool Don. The US should remove the H-1B cap so global hiring can be fulfill. As soon the global hiring kick in full mode, as a business owner I will replace loudsy writer like Don with the Indian writers from third world right away because they are cheaper.

It would be even cooler, global military too. When any war happens in the US, the US should outsource to the Indian military because they are cheaper than US military. Hell no I wont die for the US because I ain't get nothing out from this country. This country benefit is for the Indians not for me. I am have no issue with Global Hiring and Global Military right..., I can sit there collect my welfare until the US bleeding to death. 

Don  why should I hire the US worker like you at first place ? Remember this Don ! when you get layoff don't file you unemployment benefit in the US because the US can't pay your expensive unemployment benefit. I would suggest you to go to India to claim your unemployment compensation there because global compensation too. I would prefer US outsources your unemployment benefit to India because it is cheaper and saving more money for the US.

Global hiring, Global Unemployment for who ??? Who benefit the Global Unemployment??. As you already know US will be the one benefit from Global Unemployment. Only few US riches benefit from this.

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Jan 24, 2010 4:07 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don,

the real flaw in your arguement, is that you are not considering the cost of the stimulus

each job in that stimulus cost $250,000

each job 'created' puts our country 1/4 million further into debt

each job given to a foreign worker that could be filled by one of our people is 1/4 STOLEN from the citizens, and aggrivates the worst threat to our security, bankruptcy

you have the absolute worst kind of morality, thinking you're above those you disagree with as you advocate theft

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Jan 24, 2010 4:43 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

I have no idea what you're talking about, because I have made no argument that has anything to do with a "stimulus," or that has anything to do with whatever argument you're attempting to refute. In any case, to say that I "advocate theft" is reckless and irresponsible. I do not necessarily expect the same degree of civility, respect and dignity that I demonstrate in my responses to those who comment here, but I do expect basic decency. Anyone who is incapable of that is incapable of making an argument that warrants my consideration.

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Jan 24, 2010 4:55 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

One more thing: I do not think of myself as being above anyone. The irony of hanging that label on me, considering the positions I've taken and the positions of those who disagree with me here, is screaming way too loudly not to be noticed.

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Jan 24, 2010 9:45 AM Mrcio Costa Mrcio Costa  says: in response to Don Tennant

Hi Mr. Tennant,

You are exactly right. You were not treated fairly with that comment. As I have understood, you believe that people is the same in any place of the world. They cry, scream, laugh and feel hunger. I feel the same.

What I really think is: capital has no nation. Or morality. The speech would be endless, but at the end (or long term), as would say Lord Keynes, "we are all dead".

Hope your blog keep allowing good brainstormings,

Mrcio

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Jan 24, 2010 11:48 AM EMM EMM  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, I'd like to see how you would feel if you were a woman engineer. In almost all other countries, it's a lot worse for women, especially the working mother. I've had Indian dudes freak out because women in their state die at age 47 on the average and they were not used to seeing a productive female as their boss.

And then there's the racism. As bad as it can be in the US, there;s equal racism in Asia. Chinese are often quite racist against other Asians -- read Barbara Ehrenreich's 'Global Woman' for examples. Ask your average Brahmin Northern Indian about people from Chennai or Bangalore--OMG, the racism. There's an irony that these are the true Aryans, because their attitudes towards the darker-skinned Dravidians is astounding.

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Jan 24, 2010 12:46 PM Mrcio Costa Mrcio Costa  says: in response to Smith

Hi Smith,

You are right, I said 'continuous deficits', but I havent specified where in time. Please excuse me, maybe it is because english it is not my native language I made this mistake. In Portuguese, the 'continuous deficits' would mean 'cronic, repeated deficits in mid-short term'.

But what I really have in mind is: american deficits, since Bretton Woods (even more after Nixon) were a competitive advantage to US, if the dollar is the worldwide trade reference (even more in a global world). For example, we say here in Brazil that, as you have 0% (or close to this) interest rate, what occurs in fact is that you 'export' your deficit to other countries, in a open-market free currency flutuaction (as Brasil is). So dollars here are becoming under-evaluated, and reals (Brasil's currency) over-evaluated. The effect of this is 'to pay' your deficit with the currency flutuaction.

You are right about China - no free currency flutuaction. It is not sustainable in a long-term, and I am afraid that this can be really dangerous in the next 10-20 years.

You should notice, however, that this situation, in fact, allows north americans to buy a lot of stuff from China almost from free - even more if they receive dollars and the currency market is closed. If they open the market, it would be bad for both US and China - as they have so many dollars and US treasure papers, both currencies would flutuacte in an uninmaginable way. Tough decision to the future, and really dangerous IMHO.

But you are wrong about US being open. Many brasilian products (ethanol, steel, etc) pay a considerable tax to enter in your market. US is protectionist, in fact; it is not true that it is an open market. It is just speech.

With globalization, Nike, Apple, etc, can produce in foreign countries almost for nothing. Even more with dollar as the worldwide currency, as allows US to emit dollars to pay for it. What causes a lot of currency exchange problems, if the natural tendency would be to create inflation, which is avoided, for example, doing what China did. Which can be really a huge problem in the long term. The same situation applies to IT workers in India.

Therefore you cannot really blame globalization regarding US problems, as it benefits US . It is only a matter of the facts (as you have the 'machine' to emit dollars). If it was not globalization, where you would produce Ipods, Nike shoes, etc? In US?

Regards,

Mrcio

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Jan 27, 2010 6:17 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to EMM

It truly amuses me that the very people in these posts above who assert that they deserve more of the American dream than I do because they were born here are exactly the same that object to the Indian caste system.

Also, people seem confused as to who's communist. It would be quite ironic to note that globalization really took off under 8 years of Bush when, logically, the GOP ensured that the lobbying companies that helped them to power could minimize costs by buying goods from China and labor from India. Obama's been the one that's trying to erect commerical walls around the US. The US political system seems to be having an identity crisis, huh?

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