Lesson for H-1B Haters: Libel Will Get You Nowhere

Don Tennant

It was bound to happen. It's understandable that someone could be so deeply angered by H-1B fraud and abuse, and the resultant suffering of U.S. workers, that he's driven to make defamatory and libelous statements against those he sees as the enemy. What's difficult to understand is that anyone would be surprised when the libel suits begin flying.

 

A New Jersey judge late last month ordered the disabling of three H1-B opposition Web sites in response to a libel suit filed by Apex Technology Group, an IT consulting company in Edison, N.J., that's widely seen as an H-1B "body shop." The three sites are Guestworkerfraud.com, Endh1b.com and ITgrunt.com. Here's a quick look under the hoods of those three sites:

 

Guestworkerfraud.com: For reasons that are unclear to me, at this writing this site is still up and running, despite the shut-down order. It appears that all references to Apex Technology have been scrubbed from the site, however, so whatever content Apex had a problem with is no longer accessible.

 

What I can say is this site is quite capable of making outlandish, irresponsible claims. There's the "India machinations to sabotage U.S. power grid" post, which warns us that "India, which is America's enemy, but which is pretending to be our friend, is planning to sabotage our power grid when China invades us." And then there's the equally entertaining post, "Even more proof that global warming is a communist front." While these posts are just plain goofy rather than libelous, it's not too much of a stretch to surmise that posts about Apex Technology might have crossed the libel line.

 

Endh1b.com: This site appears to have been killed and resurrected as Endh1b2.com. Posts on a site with the latter URL include "Apex Technology Group Inc is [an] H-1B slave trader," and "Fraud at Apex Technology Group Inc." These guys just have to accept the reality that no matter how much you abhor the way Apex operates, you can't publicly accuse them of slave trading and fraud. And you can't pretend you haven't given them a golden opportunity to hit you with a libel suit and thereby redirect the scrutiny from themselves to you.


 

ITgrunt.com: This one has been taken down and, at this writing, remains down, so I can't point to what was on the site that Apex didn't like. I can say that according to Computerworld, Patrick Papalia, an attorney representing Apex, said the issue at hand includes "threatening and racist comments against company officials." I also know that the operator of ITgrunt.com has written quite a few comments in response to several of my posts here, bestowing on me such appellations as "castrated collaborator." Now, I can be on the receiving end of that stuff from now till the cows come home, and it really doesn't faze me. But I will say that I don't like it when others are subjected to it. A commenter who expressed support for my post received a hateful browbeating that began, "We don't need our hands slapped by PC collaborators like you. Either you are not in I.T., or you are disloyal douchebag who feels guilty about hiring packs of feral H-1Bs from a sh*thole subcontinent." I'll spare you the rest.

 

Again, these people have to understand that you can use the Web for anonymous defamation if you're so inclined, but at some point you have to face the fact that not everyone is going to be willing to let it go. One sad thing about all this is that if even a fraction of the body-shop allegations that have been made against Apex Technology are true, the company has a lot to answer for. But it probably won't have to, because now it has the upper hand over its critics, as the New Jersey judge's shut-down order will attest.

 

What will be even sadder is if no one learns from this. Libel is not OK, even if it's directed at people you don't like, even if those people don't share your culture and nationality, and even if those people are guilty of wrongdoing. Libel is libel. Of course, there will be those who will chalk it all up to a legal system that is corrupt and that has sold out to anti-U.S. interests, just as assuredly as there are those who want us all to believe that India "is planning to sabotage our power grid when China invades us."

 

But rest assured that the longer these tactics persist, the longer the body shops will prevail.



Add Comment      Leave a comment on this blog post
Jan 12, 2010 1:10 AM Kim Berry - Programmers Guild Kim Berry - Programmers Guild  says:

Don,

The "libel" was that an anonymous person who claimed to be a former Apex employee posted in a feedback such as this an allegation that the Apex "employment agreement" included clauses of penalties ranging from several thousand dollars to $30,000 if the H-1b workers resigned under certain conditions.

Apex refuses to disclose the employment agreement. I'm not sure what the "libel" was - I'll claim they are a racist indian bodyshop by virtue that they only hire from their own nationality. Is that libel? Check with Apex - at least 90% of their U.S. staff are fellow Indian nationals.

I've placed some of their linkedin profiles here:

www.programmersguild.org/apex/

If Apex disputes my allegations, should a judge shut down itbusinessedge.com site w/o even checking the facts first?

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Jan 12, 2010 1:25 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Kim Berry - Programmers Guild

My point has nothing to do with the merits of Apex's case. My point is that libelous, slanderous, defamatory hatespeak is standard fare in this debate, and that no one should be surprised about the emergence of libel suits. I'm certain there will be more, and I'm certain that they will deflect scrutiny away from the body shops and others whose fraud and abuse are hurting U.S. workers. It all underscores the point I've been making all along -- that the personal attacks, reckless accusations and hate-mongering will inevitably backfire, and innocent U.S. workers will inevitably pay the price.

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Jan 12, 2010 1:32 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

wrong Don, you're stating libel occurred as a matter of fact, not as an allegation

"Lesson for H-1B Haters: Libel Will Get You Nowhere

Posted by Don Tennant Jan 12, 2010 10:26:03 AM

It was bound to happen. It's understandable that someone could be so deeply angered by H-1B fraud and abuse, and the resultant suffering of U.S. workers, that he's driven to make defamatory and libelous statements against those he sees as the enemy. "

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Jan 12, 2010 1:56 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

Nonsense. Again, my introductory statement makes no reference to any allegation, so the use of "alleged" would be nonsensical. That said, I have no doubt that libel has occurred. Regardless of whatever specifics Apex is pointing to in its allegation, publicly accusing any company of "slave trading" and "fraud" is libelous. Yes, that sort of thing is very common, but that doesn't make it legal. The filing of a lawsuit was just a matter of time. So I stand by my opening statement.

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Jan 12, 2010 2:20 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

Warning: Libel to follow.

I happen to know, from an un-named source (perhaps not from this world), that McDonalds harvests embryos of babies and resells them as the 10-piece chicken McNugget meal.

OK, that will probably pass the court's test of humor and satire - but it is also libel.  But what if I were serious?  Should the courts order the entire ITBusinessEdge website shut down because of this one libelous post? 

I don't endorse just about everything on the ITGrunt website given the rancid nature of his comments, however I also think it is dangerous to shut down entire websites because one part is (allegedly) libel.

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Jan 12, 2010 2:35 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

I dont buy your point

But moving on, this bazzarre series of 'articles' you are writing is completely disingenuous.

ANY internet thread, on ANY topic, be it H-1bs or what Camaro carburetor is best, is going to get nasty if it goes on long enough. 

'Godwin's law' states "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2]"

That was made 20 years ago - and he didnt limit it to any set of topics - it is UNIVERSAL.

It is completely disingenious of you to make a series of articles painting those who oppose H-1b as the equivelant of the fringe (which you can find on ANY tiopic).  You're using a nasty 'guilt by association' tactic.

In another one of these 'articles', I asked you why Norm Matloff wasnt at a senate hearing with bill gates, and you didnt answer becasue you cant.

You assert in these articles that citizen workers arent heard becasue they're nasty

You have it backwards, they're nasty becasue they wont be heard - it's inevitable

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Jan 12, 2010 3:04 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

according to this DICE thread, APEX is (allegedly) suing the USA governmentm naming Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano

seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=20134&;tstart=1

So where's your admonishment of them, Don? Isnt a lawsuit proof of guilt?

You arent afraid of them, are you?

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Jan 12, 2010 3:07 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Don Tennant

To this point:

"It all underscores the point I've been making all along -- that the personal attacks, reckless accusations and hate-mongering will inevitably backfire, and innocent U.S. workers will inevitably pay the price."

I agree 100%.  There are legitimate reasons to dislike the H-1b visa.  There is no need for people to inject the attacks into this debate because it harms any ability to win ground on an issue.  This issue must fit neatly into the political views of a wide audience - as the Democrats like to say "pitch a big tent".  Making this an issue of race and immigration is a problem, when it is really an issue of labor, trade, and economics.

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Jan 12, 2010 3:22 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Tom

seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=20134&;tstart=1

Interesting.  There has got to be an even bigger story here.  Who is this company really, and who is funding them?

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Jan 12, 2010 3:59 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

Just a reminder that I don't make any point with the objective of getting anyone to buy it. I state my views openly with the aim to facilitate enlightened discussion on controversial topics. And these are not articles. They're blog posts. There's a huge difference.

I respond to questions that interest me and that I believe contribute something of substance to the discussion, on a time-available basis. A question about why Norm Matloff wasn't at a Senate hearing with Bill Gates is kind of silly. You're right, I can't answer it, because I have no way of knowing the answer. Maybe there's a conspiracy to block Norm Matloff from Senate hearings. I have no idea.

And let's assume I have it all backwards. Nastiness is still self-defeating, and always will be.

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Jan 12, 2010 4:01 AM jake leone jake leone  says:

I think what people have learned is that whistle blowing is not okay, and that local judges care more about money than human rights.

What was posted was a contract with annotations describing unlawful conduct of APEX. 

Basically a big white light was shined on an abusive human trafficker, and you are completely ignoring one of the biggest human rights issues of our time.

How can you possibly defend that?  You can't, that's why you are putting up red-herring, saying they were taken down because ITGrunt is racist.

Well I don't agree with racism, but my respect for the Constitution and freedom are so strong (and the millions who have given their lives for that freedom), that suppressing the rights of others (including racists) is unacceptable.

Don this is nothing but a case of parochial judge giving in to local business interests.  And the case of 2 ISP's chickening out and not defending the free speech rights of their customers.

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Jan 12, 2010 4:19 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to jake leone

Suggesting that I'm defending Apex is nonsense. I'm doing no such thing. My concern is that the light shining on human rights abuses is being dimmed by a militant, reckless approach to solving the problem. In this case, the recklessness is enabling Apex to deflect the light altogether and shine it back on those who want to hold Apex accountable for its actions. How anyone can defend THAT is the question.

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Jan 12, 2010 4:31 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don - I admire your tenacity and the thick skin needed to enter this debate.  It truly is difficult to have a reasoned discussion in an unmoderated forum on a heated topic like this one.  Any anonymous poster can get your blood boiling by name calling and simple provocation.

I have a blog where I discuss this issue: techpol.blogspot.com/. ; However, I approve all comments.  I know, not very democratic of me.  And as a result very few people comment on my blog.  Some people even make fun of me because of the general lack of interest in a wonkish blog.  I'm really hurt

I wish there was a public arena where we could have debates such as this one, which didn't allow anonymous people to participate, and which was also moderated.  I think the level of discourse will be much higher.  And yes, the participation probably much lower.  It's much easier (an probably more fun to some people) to simply sling mud. 

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Jan 12, 2010 6:18 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Don Tennant

"In this case, the recklessness is enabling Apex to deflect the light altogether and shine it back on those who want to hold Apex accountable for its actions"

yup, if it hadn't been for 'tunnelrat's', website, we know that the government would have quickly stepped in and righted any wrongs that apex might be doing

But, becasue of tunnerat, they will now get away with anything they might be doing

ever considered comedy, Don?

That's something you might actually be good at

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Jan 12, 2010 6:59 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to Tom

As an Indian H-1B, I find the closure of these websites an amateurish trampling of the first amendement rights of the bloggers concerned. I completely see how everything relating to Apex could have been ordered removed. Closing the websites down is a sledgehammer in lieu of a mallet.

Having found the material of ItGrunt deeply racist and offensive, I nonetheless respect his neurotic need to spew xenophobic nonsense and responses from his posse of equally deranged cheerleaders. But this is America, the land of the free.

I do agree with Don's comment on how this may have been a lost opportunity to skunk out the bodyshops of the world. They are good for no-one; either the H-1Bs or the Americans displaced by them. However, as they say, there's nothing like bad press. If Apex is anything like the slimy plethora of principally Indian run bodyshops I have had the distate of working with before, they deserve to be dissolved and prosecuted.

There is a large number of us who are H-1Bs from India who earn advanced and professional degrees from the US and work for great employers. If your perspectives are skin-deep, you'll not see us any differently from the crooks in the Indian bodyshops. Fortunately for us, we end up with colleagues who are just as educated and our lives remain pleasant to give back to this nation and assimilate.

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Jan 12, 2010 7:29 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Indian_H1B

First, you say

"Having found the material of ItGrunt deeply racist and offensive"

then, you refer to the

"slimy plethora of principally Indian run bodyshops "

Isnt the second statement anti-Indian?  You imply that if a body shop is Indian, they're slime (which I tend to agreee with).  Or is it different, when YOU do it?

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Jan 12, 2010 9:39 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Tom

Don said: ""...slimy plethora of principally Indian run bodyshops "

Tom said: "Isnt the second statement anti-Indian?  You imply that if a body shop is Indian, they're slime (which I tend to agreee with).  Or is it different, when YOU do it?""

Roy:

I think the statement was anti-body shop.  He was stating a fact that they are principally run by Indian firms.  If they were mostly run by Canadian firms, I suspect he would have called them a "slimy plethora of principally Canadian run bodyshops."  I don't think that is anti-Canadian unless you happen to be a Canadian running a body-shop.

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Jan 12, 2010 11:49 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to R. Lawson

Whoa ... I'm not the one who wrote "slimy plethora of principally Indian run bodyshops" -- when Tom quoted that, he was responding to the post by Indian H1B, who is the one who wrote it.

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Jan 12, 2010 12:45 PM Tom Tom  says:

"driven to make defamatory and libelous statements against those he sees as the enemy"

i think you forgot the word 'alleged', Don

Journalism 101 - until it's settled in court, it's an 'allegation', not a 'fact'

this eneding series of rants against H-1b messageboards has become very unprofessional, and I hope your employer is making a note of it

Becasue I'm sure a younger cheaper worker can grind out what you write

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Jan 12, 2010 12:52 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Tom

Nonsense. It was an opening statement that referred to no specific alleged libel.

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Jan 13, 2010 1:03 AM James James  says: in response to Don Tennant

Hey Don,

guestworkerfraud.com is still up because Network Solutions, where the domain is registered is smart enough to know that the court order has no force of law since no libel was ever PROVEN. In order to have defamation, you have to first prove the statements made were FALSE and then also prove the plaintiff was materially damaged in some way. Neither of those were done by Apex or the 2-bit joke of a NJ court. Hence NS, didn't comply. The site is still up because of that and it will stay up until a real trial is held to PROVE libel. ALLEGATIONS do not equal PROOF. Besides, even if the site does go down it will simply be reloctaed offshore outside the jurisdictions of these kangaroo courts. And there's not a thing you can do about it.

Being the genius that you are, perhaps you need to familiarize yourself with the way the legal system works in the U.S. Or was a writer's job the best you could do with your intellect?

As for 'hatespeak' you don't seem to have a problem with Azim Premji of Wipro running around all over American TV saying things like "America does not have the talent" or Karin Karnik saying "India's engineers are better than the best American engineers". Where's your outrage about that anti-American hatespeak? Or are they paying you to write these articles?

As for the comment about the power grid being outlandish and irresponsible, would you have felt the same about people who tried to warn the U.S. about the Japanese before Pearl Harbor, or about Hitler running all over Europe before we had to put a stop to him? You're not against Nazis are you? What, you are? How intolerant you German-hater. Quit being so naive. India is on a Global Takeover campaign - they have admitted it themselves. Hitler's Mein Kampf is now the #1 selling business book in Mumbai. I hope you go to the front lines when WW3 starts and we'll see how "outlandish" it is then.

You had better start valuing your country a little more or else it will be taken away from you. And learn about the way the legal system works while you are at it.

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Jan 13, 2010 1:08 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don,

You need to go look up the definition of libel, slander, and defamation - merely MAKING a negative statement is not defamation - the statement made has to be proven FALSE first in a court of law. Otherwise it is mere fact or opinion. Was that done in this case? No, it wasn't - it was never PROVEN that the statements made were false. Hence, no defamation occured. No wonder the U.S. is in such trouble with ignoramuses like you working in the media. Stop misleading people.

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Jan 13, 2010 1:15 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Give back to the nation? You've given back alright - you've given us the biggest recession in 70 years. America's economy was booming when Americans were running Silicon Valley. Not any more. Don is just a 3rd rate hack writer who has probably never even been to SV, let alone worked there and knows what is going on there.

There are LAWS on the books in India making it ILLEGAL to hire Americans there. There are no guest worker visa programs in China for 5 million American IT workers to go work there.

You were mentioning xenophobia, Don?

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Jan 13, 2010 1:48 AM Quiqueg Quiqueg  says: in response to Mike

Recession-lovers like Don need to start hating those who destroy productive economies more.

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Jan 13, 2010 1:58 AM USITworkerAgainstH1B USITworkerAgainstH1B  says: in response to James

BRAVO!!!!!

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Jan 13, 2010 4:20 AM Kim Berry - Programmers Guild Kim Berry - Programmers Guild  says:

Regarding posts that "libel must be proven in court":

Courts can issue temporary orders based upon a showing that irreparable harm is occuring. I believe that is what happened in this case.

A court order always has the force of law - I doubt that network solutions failure to comply was based upon their independent assessment of the underlying issues.

I think Don should be commended for bringing up this case and disagree with everyone who is attacking him here. I agree "libel is always wrong."

I disagree that the statement "Apex uses slave labor" is necessarily libelous. There are multiple definitions:

dictionary.reference.com/browse/slave+labor

3. any coerced or poorly remunerated work: Typing at that salary is slave labor. 

If a person is subject to an $8k penalty for resigning and they don't have $8k, are they really "free" to resign? H-1b bodyshops do coerce and underpay their workers. A worker's entire right to remain in the U.S. hinges upon retaining that job. That often leads to abuses "either work this Sunday or back to the streets of Calcutta you go!"

I agree with Roy, this is not "racist":

"slimy plethora of principally Indian run bodyshops"

any more than:

"slimy plethora of principally American run financial services organization"

is racist. "Indian" is not a "race" - it is a country. (And thank you to the H-1b worker who posted that.)

FACT: The vast majority of employer with the lowest-paid H-1b workers are "Indian bodyshops"

www.programmersguild.org/docs/lowest_paying_2004.htm

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Jan 13, 2010 4:40 AM k k  says: in response to Kim Berry - Programmers Guild

""Indian" is not a "race" - it is a country"

Uh? then why have i been ticking "East Indian" amongst all the choices given to me while filling up numerous legal application forms here in the US and elsewhere?

Please look closely at the next form that asks  for race  identification, you will find an "East Indian" option.

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Jan 13, 2010 4:47 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

I'm still trying to figure out how the worst things we could possibly dream up to say would hold a candle to the things that have actually been DONE to us over the last decade by the flood of extraneous foreign laborers and their promoters.

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Jan 13, 2010 4:59 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

That's really not the issue. The issue is whether the worst things you could possibly dream up to say will help fix what's been done over the last decade. I contend that they won't, and that they in fact perpetuate the hatefulness that has to be abandoned as a prerequisite to solving any number of social problems that confront us.

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Jan 13, 2010 5:09 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Someone needs to introduce some reality to the conversation. They are sure to find this insulting and resume calling us names. By reality, I mean little things like, that there was never an American shortage of skills or workers, that they are not God's gift to America, that they are not doing anything we can't do for ourselves at least as well, and that they are actually harming our economy, our business climate, and our people who never deserved what is being done to them. I am constantly running into members of their contingent who disbelieve one or more of the above, and a whole lot more fairytale stuff besides. Someone needs to explain to them that holding an H-1B visa does not make them 'immigrants' even if they are allowed to desire to stay. Some of them need to hear that they are not divinely appointed agents with a mission to take over America's economy and society and punish America. Someone needs to call them to account for the incredible harm they have done and continue to do to a profession we basically invented. They are not innocent. Stop cutting them a free pass.

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Jan 13, 2010 6:22 AM James James  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, let me see if I can make this 'hate' thing you are so hung up on clear to you.

Britain invaded and colonized India 150 years ago. Most Indians hate white people as a result. Indians blame the white western world for 'stealing India's wealth'. Since 1998 we have imported 5-7 million Indian nationals to work in our best IT jobs. As a result of these historical resentments, when an American IT worker goes to apply for a job and an Indian manager is sitting behind the desk, what do you think happens? The American gets denied the job because of race and historical resentments.

Now if you want to talk about 'fixing the problem', the logical solution, and the one promised to American workers in 1998 when this nonsense all began is to deport ALL the foreign workers back to where they came from as agreed originally.

If you want to talk hate, you need to begin by looking at the rampant, pervasive hatred directed at the very American IT workers who built Silicon Valley long before the imports got here and began the takeover.

The U.S. economy was booming in 1998 before the invasion, now it's falling apart. That's because former American workers who were working and spending into the U.S. economy are now unemployed and remittance-hungry foreing 3rd world workers are now occupying those jobs and sending the money home instead of spending it here.

Don, you seem to have no actual grasp of what is really happening on the ground as opposed to your ivory-tower theoretical viewpoint.

You are looking in the wrong place for "hate" - this all started because of the hatred the imported workers have for Americans. We are merely reacting to that hatred in like kind.

Why are millions of Americans allowed to suffer extreme hate at the hands of foreign workers and you say nothing but the instant an America tries to expose it, you're pen starts flowing?

Man-up and be a real American instead of whoring yourself out to the highest foreign bidder.

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Jan 13, 2010 6:24 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Dolores

Don you lecture American citizens about 'hate speech', and give indians a pass while they are using Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' as a SELF HELP BOOK!!!!!!

Doesnt this suggest that Indians are every bit (if not more) capable of 'Hate Speech'?  Or is Mein Kampf not 'Hate Speech when THEY subscribe to it?  Sure seems like it's not 'what's right' but 'who's right'

It's proof that indians can do ANYTHING and still not be criticized in American media - would the same media be silent if American students were doing it?  We all know the answer to that.  Yet, you scold Americans

You are biased to the point of bazzarre

Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf Seen As Self-Help Guide For India's Business Students

digg  Huffpost - Hitler's Mein Kampf has become a popular book among students in India looking for tips on management tactics, reports the Daily Telegraph. Students striving to become successful businessmen and women are using the Nazi leader's infamous autobiography as a self-help book.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/22/hitlers-mein-kampf-seen-a_n_190064.html

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Jan 13, 2010 6:28 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

Q: what do you call an American with Mein Kampf in his hand?

A: A Neo-Nazi Racist

Q: What do you call an Indian with Mein Kampf in his hand?

A: Diversity, that should be valued

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Jan 13, 2010 6:37 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to James

To quote Carroll, "things get curioser and curioser".

As I understand the banshees above:

  • All Indians hate white people

  • All Indians that have landed in the US have a perfect track record of setting the economy back a little.

  • All Indian read the Mein Kampf as we all know that German is well spoken all over India.

  • The population of people of Indian origin in the US is 3 million and yet 5-7 million have been imported since 1998 to disappear into black-holes under the ground. Whether 3 million or 7 million, these guys have had their hands around the gonads of the the remaining 300 million Americans depriving them of jobs and sinking their economy.

  • The British East India company was formed in 1600 and colonization soon followed, but apparently it started in 1860 per expert historians above.

Next time I visit my folks in India, I'll be sure to educate them about 1.1 billion automatons walking in lock-step to run America to the ground.

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Jan 13, 2010 6:52 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Typical straw man argument. They can't answer specifics, because we are telling the truth, so they exagerate our words and make fun of us. I can't wait for other airports to start doing like Newark, and for tinyurl.com/ybbz8ne enforcement to spread. Those of us who remember life in America before the floodgates opened to H-1Bs need no convincing.

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Jan 13, 2010 7:13 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says: in response to Mike

Don is on the wrong end of this and probably knows it.  Slandering me is all he can do, because everyday, another media outlet takes a stand for the First Amendment and condemns the actions of Apex and Judge Hurley.

Yesterday it was the S.F. Chronicle, today it is the Oakland (N.J.) Journal:

theoaklandjournal.com/oaklandnj/new-jersey-free-speech/

"...The alleged H1-B abuses by Apex Technology are aggravated by their promotion of off-shore outsourcing in which they promise  'IT staff at a fraction of the cost of a US employee'...."

At this rate, any Google search for Apex Technology Group will be filled with references to this case for years to come.  I predict they will soon have another DBA, which is what Desi bodyshop Mastech did after getting busted for running "Indians Only" ads.

And keep in mind Apex contacted me with demands to turn over information about a renegade former Indian H-1B employee:

"...Mr. Pankaj Jain and is defaming Apex Technology Group reputation in many other websites which are currently cooperating with our Attorney. I would like to bring this to you attention that our Attorney has went forward with legal proceedings against this culprit..."

"...I further request you to provide us the contact details of the individual who posted this legal agreement without permission since we are the copyright owner of the legal document..."

And I, being the racist I am, refused:

"...You sound like an Indian who is trying to intimidate American citizens exercising their First Amendment rights.  We are not in the business of helping exploitative Desi bodyshops target their H-1B victims for harassment, retribution, or violence..."

community.icontact.com/p/endh1b/newsletters/v20/posts/bodyshop-suing-anybody-and-everybody

If he were in my shoes,  I bet Don would go out of his way to help Apex find this "culprit".

That is what collaborators do.

He is probably tracking the IP addresses of anybody posts comments about this case and turning over the data to Apex.

I wouldn't spend time on this cyberspace backwater.  Readers and people that have opinions on this case should go post comments on legitimate forums like ComputerWorld, SFGate, or the Oakland Journal.

You can forget about ITBusiness edge -- it is a front for the NASSCOM and the H-1B lobby.

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Jan 13, 2010 7:56 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Indian_H1B

YOU refered to the "slimy plethora of principally Indian run bodyshops ", which are Indian businessmen in the USA (and I agreed with you.)

But you're a hypocrite - what's the difference between making observations of Indian nationals running body shops, and Indian H-1bs who work here - they're 2 groups of Indians in the USA.

Your postiion is that YOU have the right to criticize Indian businessmen (which I agree with), but the WE dont have the right to criticize Indian H-1bs.

The only difference is that one group you belong to, and the other group ticks you off

But if one were not a member of either group, there would be no difference whatsoever in the 'racism' of criticizing one group vs the other.

Other than the fact that you dont like it and that you think you make the rules

you dont

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Jan 13, 2010 8:02 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

Dateline's 'To Catch a Predator' pedophile fugitives

Noitice any pattern in these names?

List of current fugitives as of November 16th, 2009

- Real Name - Online ID - Arrest Location - Last Known Hometown -

1. James Wiles - hambubger - Flagler Beach, FL - Jacksonville, FL

2. Abdallah Mohamed Mohamed - blondy91972 / midos1972 - Flagler Beach, FL - Orlando, FL

3. Yazan Asfour - slave2mistresses - Flagler Beach, FL - Tampa, FL

4. Abhilash Ab Bhaskaran - raj21us21 - Harris County, GA - Alpharetta, GA

5. Sandeep Kamath - kamath_manipal - Meriden, CT - Stamford, CT

6. Prapanj Ganeshan Radhamony - astraightlife - Jefferson County, AL - Birmingham, AL

7. Gaurav Goyal - gaurav.goyal@att.net - Wayne County, MI - Auburn Hills, MI

8. Chandram Pilli - chandram_p / wantdate2008 - Wayne County, MI - Farmington, MI

9. Gopichand Pai - paigopi - Petaluma, CA - Sunnyvale, CA

10. Pulkit Mathur - puki_007us - Petaluma, CA - Sunnyvale, CA

11. Hyung K Paek - hyungpaek - Riverside, CA - Los Angeles, CA

12. Norindra Say - yoyoma92054 - Laguna Beach, CA - Tustin, CA

Return to Main Page

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Jan 13, 2010 8:04 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom
Jan 13, 2010 8:17 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to Tom

correction 'alleged' pedophile fugatives

LOL

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Jan 13, 2010 8:40 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Tunnel Rat

I'm disturbed by the perception that Don always takes the side of the foreign workers against us domestic workers. Even if all the worst charges against ITGrunt were true, they are NOTHING compared to the very real ongoing campaign of slander, libel, and dirty tricks directed at American workers by the foreign contingent and their American supporters for over a decade now. Yet, let someone on our side raise his voice, and Don lectures us as if we just pulled off an American Cawnpore. Meanwhile, the situation for us has gotten so awful that we are seeing articles like this: tinyurl.com/yck4v4u, and while some of them are suffering job loss in this recession too, a far higher proportion of them are being allowed to keep working here in America even as we are being let go. They were supposed to be temporary, until there was no "shortage" (not that there ever was: www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2009/db20091027_723059.htm). We are facing long-term and even permanent unemployment (tinyurl.com/yaj8wo8), while they face at most inconvenience. And where are Don's sympathies? In the wrong place, as always.

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Jan 13, 2010 11:03 AM P Revere P Revere  says:

Here are the wages for the H-1B slaves working for Apex: www.flcdatacenter.com/CaseResults.aspx?DataSource=eh2ZU0EnrRA=&;DataYear=Uzk4INXcIqI=&WorkState=YwMc4Lc5sr0=&EIN=HqX6gT3JRBs=&EmpName=uKKzgo+wh7M=

Now go to salary.com and look up the prevailing wages.  It's not too tough to see why these companies use this deeply flawed program.  It's obviously not about the talent but about CHEAP, FOREIGN LABOR.  It's days are numbered and once it's gone, Don will have nothing to talk about. 

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Jan 13, 2010 11:13 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

When you say my sympathies lie in the "wrong place," it appears you mean I take the side of foreign workers over U.S workers. That is not the case, and a more objective reading of my posts would make that crystal clear. My sympathies lie with a lot of people, including people who are treated unfairly, regardless of their nationality. I feel just as strongly as anyone who has ever commented on any of my posts that U.S. workers are being treated unfairly in any number of respects-age discrimination, unbalanced salary standards, unfair job application requirements and, in the case of this post and several others, abuse of the H-1B program. With regard to H-1B abuse, the difference lies in our beliefs on how the problem will ultimately be solved. I am convinced that a militant, hateful, attack-oriented approach solves nothing, and in fact only exacerbates the problem. It's unfortunate that that position has been construed by some as "siding with the enemy," but I have no control over that sort of myopia. People, regardless of nationality, are not my enemy. My enemy is hatefulness, and I will always side against it.

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Jan 13, 2010 11:59 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Dolores

I don't pretend to be in a position to cut anyone a free pass. Your comment infers that I'm passing judgment on people who do the militant, reckless, personal-attack thing. I am not. I have no inclination to judge anybody, because I'm far too aware of my own faults to be judging anybody else. I write on this topic because I'm convinced that that approach is tremendously counter-productive and that it will never solve the problems we face. I have zero interest in "lecturing" anyone. That's not what this is about. I'm simply expressing a viewpoint about what will work and what won't. If you or anyone else disagrees, and if you think the resentful, mean-spirited, personal-attack, Us-vs.-Them thing will solve our problems, then that's your prerogative. We'll figure it out, eventually.

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Jan 13, 2010 12:07 PM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says:

Hey Don, you Desi bodyshop sycophant, libel has to be proven in a court of law.  I am going to sue you and your web site for defaming me, and you can defend yourself.  I have some good lawyers, and as Apex has shown, anyone can get a senile, corrupt judge to shut websites down.

BTW, one of the John Does named in the Apex suit has nothing to do with the blogs.  He sent some emails to the New Jersey gov't reporting Apex for alleged exploitation and copied Apex. 

They got his IP from Comcast, and are now dragging him through court.  And pigs like you support this thuggish behavior.

This case has brought more publicity to the sordid H-1B industry than shills like you ever will.

And I am now registered in Japan,and up and running in Canada:

www.techinsurgent.com

www.endh1b2.com

Expect the C ^ D from my lawyer, shill.  You don't get to charge me with libel and get away with it.

And feel free to pass on my IP to Apex and their lawyers -- I know you have a hard on for your sponsors.

Now go do some reading -- astute legal minds have already chimed in on this chilling act of legal brutality by a criminal organization and their mob lawyer:

www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/order-shut-down-websites-critical-apex-technology-

Regards,

Your Worst F-Ing Nightmare.

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Jan 13, 2010 12:21 PM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to Don Tennant

So what it basically boils down to is this. An older Boomer playing schoolmarm, lecturing all concerned on his flimsy concept of 'libel', willfully ignoring all the details of the situation, and running round and round the maypole of logic. Lovely.

And then he writes:

"I am convinced that a militant, hateful, attack-oriented approach solves nothing, and in fact only exacerbates the problem."

Sorry, Donnie Boy, but we're all convinced otherwise. And so are various heads of state all over the world, otherwise O'bambi wouldn't have us deployed in such "problem" countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and now.. oddly enough, Yemen.

Hate, ad hominem and war GET IT DONE. But you'll learn that soon enough.

Heck, take a gander at CNN & Fox. They 'exacerbate' problems all the time, and look at the effect. Bill O'Reilley has elevated ad hominem to an artform.

So while you circle your wagons of logic and masturbate for pageviews, we get should all get back to solving the problem, one way or another, while you run back to your well worn bodhi tree, and dream up more bits 'n' bytes of pointless, detached drivel.

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Jan 13, 2010 12:45 PM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to Don Tennant

What a dumbass. Will I be sued for libel? No, because you can't even formulate a proper 'I don't know' as evidenced above.

Sorry, I'm a bottom-line it type of guy. You're either a fool, a sycophant or a traitor. I can't decide which.

You certainly don't know what the 1st amendment is, any more than that twat judge in New Joisy.

Indians and folks like you, that is, twat Boomers, recoil from being confronted with the truth. Even when it has to be shoved in front of your face.

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Jan 13, 2010 12:56 PM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says: in response to Drunken Economist

I have to apologize to TR, evidently the Boomer dumbass can't even have a proper threaded comment system on this little yellow journo slip of a blog.

Hire an American DBA next time, DonnieBoy.

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Jan 14, 2010 1:03 AM POed Lib POed Lib  says:

Don:

I suggested a topic for you in the last post series.  Talk about the thousands and thousands of young IT grads from US Universities who cannot find jobs.

Why are you doing nothing but promote the cheap labor side, Don?  This issue of our "best and brightest" is really important.  I have 3 kids in college and am strongly hoping that they will get good jobs when they finish.  But college kids have been displaced by cheap foreign labor.

Why won't you write about this vital issue, Don?

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Jan 14, 2010 1:09 AM FedUp WithApex FedUp WithApex  says:

Don -- I've written to you before regarding your support for H-1B visas.  I agree that many of the comments on these sites are beyond the pale.  Many of the former IT staffers that have been replaced by H-1B visa holders hold serious grudges against holders of this document.

It's hard to blame them, when they've lost their jobs, their livelihoods, and in some cases, their families and homes to the huge numbers of low-paid, low-skilled workers that have been imported by companies like APEX.

I think the most disturbing thing about the Apex situation is that they were able to find some county judge in New Jersey to abrogate the 1st Amendment protections, FCC regulations, and interstate commerce to protect the likes of a company that would never make "The best 100 places to work in IT" list at any publication.

I know you like to support these companies -- but I have a hard time supporting a company that imports workers without having actual work for them, charges excessive illegal fees to process paperwork, and then creates a severance penalty equal to one-years wages if the employee leaves his wonderful position.  I know you don't call it this -- but I call it indentured servitude -- something that we outlawed in this country when the Consititution was ratified.

Don -- you are right that you can't commit libel.  But a victim of their policies should have every right to do so -- and that is what happened here.

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Jan 14, 2010 1:28 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says: in response to POed Lib

Seriously, POed, we should move on.  This guy Don is hopeless.  He probably takes out his stash of medicinal pot every night and contemplates a world that can never be -- where people like American techies train Raj the Replacement and happily go learn a new skill like shining shoes or changing tires.

He is one of the "can't we all just get along" idiots that accumulated like lice in the 70's and 80's.

No, Don, we just can't get along.  We are pissed, and Raj the scab is the target of our anger, along with pimps like Sarvesh Kumar, his pimp at Apex. 

And you too, you f-ing shill.

BTW, another day, another story about Apex Technology Group:

www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Shuttered-H1B-Protest-Sites-Defended-by-Free-Speech-Advocates-487222/

Heck, getting sued for libel is a rather small price to pay to get the H-1B topic on the internet EVERY SINGLE DAY. 

I did some Googling, and H-1B came up more in the last month than it did in ALL OF THE LAST FIVE YEARS COMBINED.

Thanks Don, for helping this issue get into the mind of millions of Americans.

Now STFU.  And please give us the names of your children so that we can blacklist them in the STEM professions forever.  They are not worthy to join the ranks of proud American techies, considering the worthless DNA that they originated from.

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Jan 14, 2010 1:46 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to POed Lib

I'm providing a forum for anyone who wants to write about cheap foreign labor to write about it. There are pages and pages of coverage of cheap foreign labor in this blog, and countless others. The time that I have to devote to this blog is limited, so my inclination is to raise points in the discussion that wouldn't otherwise be presented. In any case, when I take coverage advice from a reader, it's because I've been given some reason to believe that that reader's advice is worthy of my consideration. That bar is pretty low, but it's there nonetheless.

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Jan 14, 2010 2:11 AM Ray Ray  says: in response to Dolores

Thanks to Dolores, Kim, et al.who patiently addressed the issues while understanding the hypocrisy and destructiveness (to America) of the H-1B visa law.  Don's fixation on condemning the frustrated declamations of the victims while remaining impervious to your cogent logic and the more permanent issues of the case are damning. 

I especially appreciate Dolores' link tinyurl.com/ybbz8ne . I've never understood how the bodyshops could employ a worker at a third-party site and third-party managers, without a desk at the bodyshop, for over a year without that worker being considered a statutory employee of the third party, vitiating the intent of the H-1B visa.

One needn't have viewed the frank Cohen &Grigsby work-visa video or read Joel Stewart's column instructing hiring managers on how to avoid hiring American workers while creating plausible defenses against prosecution, to perceive the hypocrisy and potential for fraud inherent in the H-1B visa laws. Just reading the text of the US Code with its deliberately misleading terminology (like calling the H-1B a nonimmigrant visa merely because the applicants attest that they do not intend to immigrate, when it is used by roughly half its recipients as a way to gain US citizenship more expeditiously;or the prohibition of the government itself initiating a legal investigation against the employer without a complaint from an aggrieved party;or its description of unusable safeguards against displacement of US workers, is enough for any intelligent , fair-minded person to smell a rat.

Our last Secretary of Labor, Elaine Chow, who has certified that America has a labor shortage in every technical area in which foreign worker visas have ever been sought and who two weeks ago in Sunday supplement Parade Magazine (1 July 2007, "Intelligence Report" by Lyric Winik, p.8) approvingly quoted unnamed executives that American workers are being replaced by foreign workers not because they're cheaper, but because they have better workplace skills, better discipline, and a better attitude toward work, explaining that "American employees must be punctual, dress appropriately, and have good personal hygiene. They need anger-management and conflict resolution skills, and they have to be able to accept direction." I haven't seen too many high-tech workers who dress inappropriately or have poor personal hygiene, certainly not enough to justify such an outrageously general, bigoted comment as this. Where's the outrage?

One wonders how high the unemployment rate for any category of American technology workers must be before the US Secretary of Labor finds that there is no shortage of American workers to justify further importation of these "temporary" workers, most of whom never leave.

America has destroyed its envied and accomplished native technical workforce developed after Sputnik, exported the technology and manufacturing plants (and most of the jobs) they developed, destroyed their livelihood after their years of specialized study and development, thereby distorting the American division of labor so that bright, hard-working American kids with scientific and technical talent who want to be able to support a family while devoting 50-60 hours a week to solving technical problems without having to worry about replacement by imported workers.  Reply

Jan 14, 2010 2:11 AM Ray Ray  says: in response to Dolores

When we hear of medical doctors driving taxicabs in Russia, we know the wage structure has been unnaturally distorted by corruption and other non-market-based forces. Similarly, when valuable American scientists like Douglas Prasher, whose years of study and research paved the way for Nobel prizes for others, are reduced to driving airport shuttles to support their families, we should know this is the result of a corrupted market manipulated for the benefit of a few. Oh, yeah, the fifty- and sixty-year old scientists with a lifetime of productivity should take a few years to "retrain" for "needed jobs" -- as if most could become gainfully employed and equally productive to society in jobs immune from the economic distortions of GATT-94, GATS, and the World Trade Organization that underlies America's economic devastation for the benefit of a small international business elite incapable of scientific innovation who need labor arbritrage, special legislation, government protection, repudiation of benefit contracts, socialization of losses, and special tax cuts to make the profit they think they deserve.

--

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Jan 14, 2010 4:01 AM Ted B Ted B  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don

Why don't you just man up and apologize for accusing bloggers of Libel when there is no proof of libel.

You are obviously in the wrong here, and even worse, you seem to be condoning behavior by the courts, which, the same wrong decisions could be applied to this board and this thread merely because accusations against apex have once again been brought up.

If you have limited time, then you should make sure your posts are accurate to begin with; noone agrees with your position, whether it's the numerous posters here, nearly every other leading publication, as well as experts in the legal field.

You'll get a lot more respect by manning up than you will by trying to weasel out of your poorly thought out blog posting

Ted

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Jan 14, 2010 4:24 AM ComplexNumbers ComplexNumbers  says: in response to Don Tennant

What are the millions of software engineers who have been destroyed by the obcenity known as the H1B program supposed to do wih their anger ?

Just sit there and disappear into poverty and homelessness. Did you not think that they would do something ? I for one am surprised that it hasnt gotten much uglier than it has so far. Heavy handed actions like the Apex move do nothing but bring more focus on an issue that has enjoyed the darkness and silence of the backroom deal for the last 15 years. I applaud Apex and this idiot judge for bringng more attention to this issue to the American people, who I would believe would have a hard time understanding the concept of why companies need 'guest workers' when there are 20 million unemployed in this country.

When the Indian nationalists have succeeded in their hostile takeover of the American IT industry maybe they will keep you as a pet.

Please look up the following term 'Judenrat' because its what you are.

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Jan 14, 2010 5:27 AM Good job Don Good job Don  says: in response to Don Tennant

Its a fact that all the negative, obtrusive  and some downright racist comments on this blog emanate from the same "one" group of ex/programmers, who orchestrate an "attack" on any article with an H-1B tag on the web, and fill the comments section with the same, "strategic"  hackneyed  vile.  I've seen this same group  of folks replicate this pattern all over the internet, well, i guess some people do have all the time in the world !

Good job on holding your own

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Jan 14, 2010 8:53 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Good job Don

Darn it. I thought my blog was special.

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Jan 14, 2010 10:10 AM jake leone jake leone  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don the comment by "Good Job Don", demonstrates why it is so necessary to defend first ammendment rights in this case.

I am not a member of any of the Guild organizations, yet I have been lumped by certain posters  as a "Guildy-thug".  (I wonder if it was "Good Job Don", who knows?).

I am just an individual posting my opinions to this board, I am not part of some grand conspiracy.

People who post such comments, typically don't want to debate the issue, hence the quick dismissal.  Let's talk about the issue here.

Abuse of court power, trampling first amendment rights by a county judge.  When anyone's rights are trampled, be it someone from India in the U.S. or any U.S. citizen, I speak out.

Reason speaks softly, but it speaks until it is heard.  So don't let your fantasy that I am some sort of Guildy-thug cause your ears to drop-off, because brother I will keep communicating about what is wrong until the vibrations affect your cortical neurons.

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Jan 14, 2010 10:26 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to jake leone

Keep in mind that I am not addressing the merits of Apex's case or of the court's actions. The thrust of all of my posts on this topic is that we need to communicate about what's wrong in the manner you just did -- calmly, rationally, and without denigrating anyone, so that our voices are heard and not dismissed as meaningless rants. Thanks for your contribution -- I hope those vibrations are widely heard.

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Jan 14, 2010 10:43 AM Get a life Don Get a life Don  says: in response to Don Tennant

Then how about you start by not denigrating anyone Don?

The tone of your article is all about denigration -- pillorying gustworkerfraud etc and focusing on the "goofy" articles intead of the relevant one.

And your suck up friend, "Great Job Don" is I'm sure none other than "CodeCorrector", a Nasscom shill from dice.com boards who's only purpose in life is to muddy the waters of clear communication and deflect criticism from the subject at hand.

His whole purpose is to always portray the anti H1b crowd as "racist" -- these Indians are amazingly racist against whites, yet never get called out on it. Go google for "gora" or "gora british" sometimes.

Gora means light skinned in Hindi -- its essentially the N word applied to white people. Go see how many millions of hits it returns and see the rabid anti white sentiment these imported frauds have.

And CodeCorrector since you're hear -- The Kentucky Derby Called and they want all their horse sh*t back.

Get a life Don and stop spanking it with these slave traders

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Jan 14, 2010 10:52 AM Get a life Don Get a life Don  says: in response to Get a life Don

Also since you can't even read what you yourself wrote I'll quote it to you:

"...that he's driven to make defamatory and libelous statements against those he sees as the enemy. What's difficult to understand is that anyone would be surprised when the libel suits begin flying."

Then you say:

"Keep in mind that I am not addressing the merits of Apex's case or of the court's actions. "

Of course you aren't discussing the merits -- you are blindly assuming that the merits are on Apex's side!!!

What the heck? Is there an online bird cage to line with this tripe?

If you are just want people to comment "rationally" then leave Apex and this suit out of your posting entirely....

You can't say that you aren't getting into the merits of the case when you open up by blindly saying that Apex was defamed...  The title of your blog posting is "Libel Will Get you Nowhere"... how is that not taking sides and getting into the merits of the case?

Get a Life Don

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Jan 14, 2010 11:30 AM Abolish H-1B Abolish H-1B  says: in response to Indian_H1B

hypocritical statements much like a politician would say.

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Jan 14, 2010 12:12 PM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to Dolores

Making fun of someone who cannot spell exaggerate is a little like making fun of someone in a wheelchair.

As to other post about my hypocrisy, I believe someone already defended me above.

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Jan 15, 2010 1:45 AM Get a Life Don Get a Life Don  says: in response to Don Tennant

Well, maybe you are laughing, but Cyberwarfare is going to be the next big front.

When and if there is a cyberattack, we can debate that then.

China has already been cyberattacking google...

If Apex contract and/or non payment of wages ends up being proven, will those statements still end up being libelous?

Do you make any postings about situations where entire IT departments are Indian and no americans work there?  If an entire IT department was white and no people of color worked there would that be fair?

What about people who are never interviewed because their name isn't Indian? Does this get covered?

I think we can agree to disagree on some of the points that you mentioned, but even USCIS has new rulings regarding bodyshop H1bs -- effectively USCIS no longer feels these are proper uses of H1b.

Finally, my postings here are my opininons and I have no interest in fueling any lawyers; if you feel my posts or my Name crosses the line then feel free to delete or edit them

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Jan 15, 2010 2:45 AM TaxiDriver TaxiDriver  says:

First of all, nothing was proved libelous.  This was all based on an ALLEGATION by the plaintiff.  The essence of the allegation itself is almost preposterous:  That publication of the plaintiff's ALLEGEDLY copyrighted adhesion contract (i.e. they inherently admit that it was an accurate copy of a contract prepared by the plaintiff) libeled the plaintiff. 

Can you imagine your landlord suing you for libel for publishing your lease on your website, claiming that the publication violated their copyright, and that the content of the lease libeled the landlord?  Its practically absurd on its face.

Now for the main point:

It amazes me how many people believe that the court has the power to sqelch libelous speech.  This is simply not the case. 

Google three words:  equity, enjoin, libel

You will find what is known as the "iron law" that "equity will not enjoin libel."  This is legalese for "Absent extraordinary circumstances (such as an incitation to riot), the court will not order a libel to be withdrawn, even after judgment.  The plaintiff must be satisfied with his remedy (i.e. the money damages awarded by the court)."

Any judge sitting in a court of record, if he or she doesn't know this rule, SHOULD know it.  Yet, this judge abjectly ignored this rule, showing nothing in the order addressing "extraordinary circumstances" to justify not only silencing the libel, but silencing the libelers altogether. 

If the judge didn't know the rule, that speaks to his competence.  If the judge did know the rule, that speaks to willful misuse of his authority. 

So, either way, it doen't look good for the judge, and still wouldn't even if he had only orderd the ALLEGED libel itself removed.

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Jan 15, 2010 4:46 AM TaxiDriver TaxiDriver  says: in response to Get a life Don

Libel is a false written statement tending to injure the reputation of a person.  To that extent, calling an alleged libel libel is itself libelous.

Think about that.

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Jan 15, 2010 9:44 AM Don't Yo Yo Me Man Don't Yo Yo Me Man  says: in response to Get a Life Don

Don ! When you step into the ring you should have known what you saying ? You don't accept the fact who you are and you are keep dancing around the ring. It is very much you are a coward. Your article subject is clearly you are siding with American IT worker's number one enemy. After I  read many replies from your article, I am cracking out of you more and more. What do you think when your journalist job is taken by an H-1B visa or even outsource to India. Don't you have any pity on American workers being cheated by corporation and politician crooks. I think you do have intention to help those cheaters. As far you are a journalist you must responsible for what you posted.

Nine years ago I got layoff because of those H-1 Visa workers. I went look for jobs but luckily I found one after 5 months. During 5 months of unemployment I got only two interviews after sending out hundreds and hundreds of resume. I was so despairing. One of the interview was cheated by Indian interviewer. Do you how he cheated me ?? He gave out all of his questions and answers to another Indian H-1B worker and he kept asking me tough questions during the interview. Later one the H-1B Indian got hire because he got all the right answers. I have not finished my story yet guy !! After I got hired the first day I showed off at my new company I found out most of the workers at my new companies are H-1B. I was so pissed off and I kept asking myself why my American colleagues are sitting home unemployment. Do you think those H-1B visas are fair for American workers and I never think so.

Don  you are never being treated like us so you never know the pain is. After 9 years I am still seeing American workers got kick for the cheaper workers from oversea. The truth is I really don't know when it is going to stop. Some time, I keep re-think myself, just let the situation fix by itself. At the point all American loosing their houses and businesses are able to make money and the situation might be stopped but it is not happening yet. Last three weeks ago I read the news about McDonald sale went down badly because not much people buying hamburgers anymore due the recession. The McDonald CEO came out told the new that we need to provide jobs to American so they can continuing buy McDonald hamburgers. It is kind of too late !!!

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Jan 15, 2010 12:51 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Get a life Don

Nonsense. Libelous statements that defame the likes of Apex and the people they employ are made in so many blog and comment posts that it would be nearly impossible to count them all. That's a fact. Regardless of exactly what Apex is alleging, and of the merit of those specific allegations, the point is that it was only a matter of time before one of these entities would sue for libel, and thereby manage to deflect scrutiny from themselves and onto the accused. That Apex has done that is a fact. And it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that my failure to keep myself from laughing at the claim that India is going to bring down our power grid when China attacks us, or that global warming is a communist plot, was denigrating to somebody. I'm going to have to plead not guilty on that one.

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Jan 16, 2010 3:41 AM Tom Tom  says: in response to James

Great post, James

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Jan 19, 2010 2:59 AM Sam Sam  says:

Don

Just in case if you are not aware of some of the comments made by Tunnelrat

Is the below free speech in the united states?This was all spewed out by Tunnel Rat and possibly why the judge ordered a complete shut down

(1) "if some one really wants to "out" me, they can then deal with the repercussions of my planned killing spree, Since I will be effectively blacklisted in IT and my family will be in danger from the legions of rabid slumdogs that I have offended, I WILL HAVE TO START KILLING INDIANS.I will begin with Desi dipshits that live down the street and so on.."

Why is it called terrorism and not free speech if you replace Indians with our own fellow citizens or jews?Why double standards?So Do you want to wait until the lunatic unleashes?Did not we already have an episode from Major Hasan who was ignored by the media?

(2) "Now that the slumdogs have taken over Google, I can no longer trust them to protect my anonymity That is why I am protecting myself and my family by stockpiling weapons and ammo My greatest hope is that some techie goes crazy and acts out violently against his slumdog replacement and the collaborators that hired the feral jackal.That techie in Pittsburgh was way off the mark by going after women at a gym.If he was going to kill himself anyway, he should of stopped off at the nearby law offices of Cohen &Grigsby."

(3) Here's a deal, SLUMDOGS.Get rid of Vineet Nayar, and I will stop blogging.Here's a picture, so you can identify the FAT **** Go ahead, eliminate that *****.I promise I WILL STOP BLOGGING The ball is in your court.

If we have come so far and elected an african american our president and removed the N word from the lexicon, why are we espousing and raving about some one and his blog who drops the S bomb in every sentence he uses?So Do we want another race to face the wrath of such words and the psychological suffering?

(4) Kurt at EFF responded and this was this comment :"I have not read the sites, since they were offline before this matter came to our attention".

EFF has lost all its credibility and so did anyone for blindly following it.

The comparison of hate laden blog to Amazon and yelp reviews is even worse than comparing apples and oranges.Amazon and Yelp will kick out such idiots and so does any firm if some one utters racial slurs and death threats

Thoughts of few others

(1) Consistency with the protection of any freedom is what counts for everyone.There are no favorites.EFF says either there is full freedom of speech or there is none.That's understandable.But at the same time Freedom of speech' is a concept which is not just applicable to people with a specific skin color or with an easy accent.Freedom of speech' must have the same standard for all.Otherwise its called discrimination.Either everyone has the SAME Freedom of speech' or no one has it at all.

If someone says kill Americans'-this society calls him a terrorist.But if someone says kill Indians'-EFF says that he is practicing his freedom of speech?I don't get it.And mind it, when this terrorist called Tunnel rat is making a public announcement for killing Indians', he is not saying he will kill Indians in India or that he will kill Indians living in Africa.He is saying that he will kill law abiding tax paying people of Indian origin living in US (possibly US citizens) or father, mother, brother or sister of US citizens. Reply

Jan 19, 2010 2:59 AM Sam Sam  says:
How is this threat to kill Indians' living in US different from terrorist threats to kill Americans' coming out of Afghanistan or Pakistan?Is terrorism also covered in free speech?EFF?Can you provide your legal opinion on this because I did not see you give your opinion on the closure of any terrorist websites?How is this any different?

(2) Just to add to your example, Tunnel Rat not only threatened to kill "Indians" but on numerous occasions, give very EXACT places he would do that.He openly talked about killing the Indian students at the University of Washington with his "USMC issued Beretta", he talked about shooting the "Desi" down his street, apart from many, many named Indian-American, Vivek Wadhwa was clearly given a Death threat by Tunnel Rat ( as mentioned by Wadhwa in the Article).He also talked about hiring various outlawed "gangs" based of in LA to undertake his "mission.

All this goes way way beyond "Hate speech", i really don't understand why all the folks "protecting" him conveniently fail to see that, and barrage a whole bunch of different issues

Reply
Jan 25, 2010 3:19 AM masher masher  says:

The fact is H-1B is a ham fisted federal regulation of the US labor market. It's command economics directed against working families to benefit corporations. Corporate welfare basically.

We have the full force of the federal government, with the blessing of major corporations, interferring in the US job market. The impact has been stagnant wages and rising unemployment. 5,000 got the axe at Microsoft this year alone. I knew some of those people let go. All were great programmers who did great work.

If we have high unemployment clearly there is no labor shortage. And anyway, why is it the federal government's job to dictate who gets a job and for what pay? Isn't that communism?

The lies are on the side of those who claim there is a labor shortage. How can there be a labor shortage if wages are not rising? Besides, if you really believe in markets then you know that only rising wages indicate a real contraint. Rising wages bring people into the labor market, they invest time and money training themselves. H-1B makes those investments risky and even worthless for Americans because as soon as wages rise the federal government will now step in and increase quotas!

No, H-1B is a type of corporate communism. And I suspect that the writer is a communist as well. At the least a fellow traveller. These people hate any and all regulations of public corporate interests but are fully in favor of regulations that crush working Americans under the boot heel of corporate/federal power.

I'm sure he got off on the recent SCOTUS decision redefining "person" to include public corporations.

So yeah, some of the people who are upset about H-1B display their anger inappropriately. But I find the writers obvious glee with the rise of neo-feudalism equally disturbing.

Reply
Feb 8, 2010 3:23 AM abc abc  says: in response to Kim Berry - Programmers Guild

the website should be apextgi.com and not  www.apextechgroup.com/.

The www.apextechgroup.com/. have their office at Cranston, RI 02921, where as the  apextgi.com have their office at Edison, NJ

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