Knee-Jerk Foreigner-Bashing Gives IT a Black Eye

Don Tennant

When I raised the issue in an earlier post of unemployed IT workers being compelled to perform what I called "slave labor" as part of the job application process, I was fairly certain that readers would begin to come forward with their own tales of having to provide free consulting services for prospective employers to demonstrate their expertise. I was also fairly certain that the discussion would degenerate into a forum for mindless foreigner-bashing. I'd make a big deal about being right on both counts, but the first was unsurprising, and the second was a gimme.

 

The post was worthwhile, because it sparked an enlightening discussion of overbearing employer interviewing practices. Readers posted comments that were informative and on point not only here, but on SFGate.com. Tom Abate of the San Francisco Chronicle wrote about my post in his "Get to Work" blog, and asked his readers about the practice of squeezing operational improvement plans out of job applicants: "So is it widespread? Unfair? Unethical? Or just the new normal for jobseekers?"

 

Abate received quite a few responses from readers who made meaningful contributions to the discussion. Some, like this one, provided reasoned advice:

 

"I have been in this position before. I would generally suggest that the company hire me to do some analysis on a trial basis at a set rate, and then hire for the full job or full time if that works out. They get to use my expertise, I get paid, we get to see how we work together... it's all fair. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I'll be damned if I'm going to spend hours of my time doing something for free that I should be paid for. My time is worth money, and if I give it away, it's not going to be valued, is it."

 

But the reasonable comments on Abate's blog were largely lost in what became a communal rant against foreign workers in general, and H-1B visa holders in particular. Apparently, the idea is that if Americans are being subjected to unfair job application demands, it must be because the practice is enabled by a job market that's being strangled by foreign workers. A sampling of the comments will give you the gist:

 

"End the H-1B program immediately and send those who are here and not critical packing. The companies of those who remain should be subject to a tax equivalent to 100% of the salaries and benefits. That will make up for the huge amount of money leaving the U.S. Yeah, I'm bitter. My income has halved in the last 10 years, and my only crime was not being a 25-year-old Indian or Chinese."

 

"Half the workers at [Amazon's Seattle] headquarters are from India. Microsoft is crawling with non-U.S. workers. Those stupid Americans, expecting to be hired by American companies located in American cities."

 

"The friggin Federal Government is run by idiots and/or criminals. Our immigration laws are designed to completely destroy the American Middle Class. Pure and simple."

 

"For you H-1B workers out there, go home. Get out. You aren't wanted, except by your money-grubbing employers."

 

"What a country India is!!!! You have a high-tech U.S. company with a top-notch physical facility hiring local employees at fast food wages, and yet next door is a toxic waste dump and residential hovel with living quarters in cardboard and sheet metal."

 

Now, bear in mind that all of this venom was spewed in response to a blog post about the practice of employers demanding operational improvement plans from job applicants. It's illustrative of a disturbing myopia I've observed over the years-one that only gets more distorted as the recession drags on. The knee-jerk compulsion of marginalized IT workers to blame people from other countries for the difficulty du jour is getting distasteful, and a little embarrassing.

 

In the end, it's also hopelessly self-defeating. Legitimate concerns about real problems, like the inexcusably poor administration of the H-1B visa program, are getting lost in a din of snide anti-foreigner rhetoric. Nothing is advanced but the perception of our ignorance and our inability to compete.



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Dec 11, 2009 2:14 AM Jim Jim  says:

"The knee-jerk compulsion of marginalized IT workers to blame people from other countries for the difficulty du jour is getting distasteful, and a little embarrassing."

How awfull for you Don

It's very thoughtless that people who have to train their H-1b replacements before they're fired and tossed into poverty, then face being shut out of interviews by racist Indian IT managers and fake job adds are causing 'embarrassment for coporate boot licking propagandists (with secure jobs) like you.

THere's only one reason you don;t get this Don, because it isn't happening to YOU

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Dec 11, 2009 2:26 AM Jim Jim  says:

Yet another American suicide "Stu Storey" after being replaced by H-1b workers and unable to find work in this economy. His widow will speak to media.  tiny.cc/PGFACE

Your pro-H-1b peer Vivek Wadhwa bashes Americans in this article

The Startup Visa And Why The Xenophobes Need To Go Back Into Their Caves

Vivek Wadhwa on December 5, 2009

www.techcrunch.com/2009/12/05/the-startup-visa-and-why-the-xenophobes-need-to-go-back-into-their-caves/

and you're throwing a fit over people's reaction to this?!?!

what kind of a person are you?

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Dec 11, 2009 6:39 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says:

I've been active on this issue for years.  I try to make civil arguments on the issue.  Do I expect others to be civil?  I would hope they would, but frankly it's tough to expect civility from people who have seen their way of life literally yanked from under them.

It's easy to say "let's all just be civil" when you aren't the victim of a bad policy. 

Also, the hostility goes both ways.  Americans say rude things, but so do foreign workers.  Americans don't have a monopoly on racism and rudeness - not even close.

What I find to be the most concerning is that the people escaping hostility are the very people instigating the problem - namely corporations who have abused the program.  They always seem to slide under the radar.

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Dec 11, 2009 6:46 AM Roy Lawson Roy Lawson  says:

I would also point out that the IT job market is influenced by many other factors than just the H-1b, L1, and offshoring issue.  And those issues go un-noticed also.

For example, the IT occupation has been singled out as exempt from overtime.  Vacation hours are routinely stolen (expired/not rolled over).  We have very high turnover.  And as a profession we don't have a strong arm in DC lobbying on our behalf (our employers certainly have their presense in DC).

I wish the H-1b issue would be addressed once and for all because it is a distraction from these other issues. 

Each and every one of us could have a better negotiating hand if we protected our profession.  Protectionism isn't such a bad word, either.  Our employers are doing every thing they can, daily, to protect their business interests.  It's time we start protecting our interests.

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Dec 12, 2009 2:12 AM Donna Conroy Donna Conroy  says:

Don, you've known for years that corporate visa programs allowed companies to only recruit abroad for US job openings and legally discriminate against American talent.

Instead of reporting this truth, you chose to publish corporate lies denigrating American professionals and American public schools.   Corporate spin doctors have used these lies to cover up the secret of this legal discrimination. 

But the secret is out: corporations have protection to deny the "employment rights of American IT workers", according to the Dept. of Justice's brief in a criminal visa abuse case.

Senator Durbin, Grassley and Sanders have 2 bills to end this legal discrimination and displacement - S.887, America's Jobs bill and S. 2804, Employ America Act.

You bare responsibilty for the anamosity, but you will not bare responsibility for restoring our right to compete for job openings in our own country. 

US techies, along with other partriotic American political organizations will be responsible for transforming our country back to the land of opportunity.

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Dec 12, 2009 3:29 AM debug debug  says:

How can Americans compete with indentured servants brought in under the H1b, L1, EB1, EB2 and EB3 visas.  Americans have to beg for jobs in IT, Engineering and almost every reasonable paying job.  The reason is companies are bringing in cheap foreign labor, from hotel clerks, to apartment maintainance personnel to even a principal.

Let's review some big tech success stories:Intel - Intel was not founded by immigrants. It was founded by 2 Americans - Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore (of Moore's Law fame).Yahoo! - Yahoo! was founded by one American - David Filo - and one immigrant - Jerry Yang. But Yang came to the U.S. at age 6 from Taiwan - a developed country. He was raised here and went to school here. He's more American than immigrant.Google - Google was founded by one American - Larry Page - and one immigrant - Sergei Brin. But Brin came from Russia, not India or China - and he came here at age 3 and grew up here and was educated here. He's more American than immigrant.

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Dec 12, 2009 3:40 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says: in response to Donna Conroy

Well said, Donna!

NASSCOM sycophants like Don are complicit in the denigration, displacement, and discrimination of American techies.  And now the naive flak is SHOCKED! SHOCKED! that Americans are fighting back.

And we are not all marginalized!

Don, Vivek Wadwha, Compete America, NASSCOM, and USINPAC like to broad-brush anybody who stands up for American STEM pros as Neanderthals.  Now that the AFL-CIO is on the case, the lies that Don and his Desi collaborators spew are being debunked.

FACT: There is no H-1B cap.

FACT: H-1Bs don't get paid market wages.

FACT: There is no techie shortage.

FACT: ITBusinessEdge.com is an organ of NASSCOM and TiE.

FACT: Most H-1Bs live out of a suitcase and remit 95% of their money home.

STFU, Don -- I have a good job, get calls from recruiters all the time, and run circles around anyone of the H-1Bs that are shinning your shoes, you f*cking pig.  I am even an immigrant and USMC vet.

I fought for this country, and don't take kindly to shills like you throwing me under the bus because your sponsors have a fondness for brown, musky, low-wage visa workers.

I'll enjoy seeing you working as tech in the Geek Squad when this is all over, which is the only job you will be able to get once your disgraced arse is booted out of the publishing biz. 

Now get busy, I am sure your NASSCOM handlers want you to spread some more propaganda about how dumb American techies are and how the bright Indians, who have NEVER produced a single piece of commercial software, deserve to ethnically cleanse all non-Indians out f I.T.  Heck, f-ing tiny Israel has more of a tech industry than India.  Even Scandinavia produces more software than all 1.2 billion Indians.

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Dec 12, 2009 7:28 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Tunnel Rat

Knee-jerk? That's a good one. In 1998, before the flood of cheap 3rd world labor began, Americans were running IT and the U.S. economy was BOOMING. After a decade of importing the 3rd world, we now have a 3rd world economy, don't we. India has had over a decade to prove itself and has been unable to do so. Knee-jerk? I don't think so. How could it be possible that 4-5 million Americans who built the IT industry have suddenly become "unable to compete" with a country that has never produced anything. Where is the Indian operating system if these people are so brilliant? Indians in IT companies in America are deliberately keeping Americans who built IT out of the workforce because India, Inc. is all a fraud. Countless companies have been destroyed or damaged by India, Inc. labor including Microsoft, GM (outsoruced to Wipro in 2006), Lehman (Bought Wipro's damaged Spectramind software just before going bankrupt), BELL LABS (taken over by Arun Netravalli and now being turned into a shopping mall), Quark (taken over by Alukah Kamar and almost died before he got fired).

Do you all know that the Christmas Day 2005 nationwide airport shutdown was caused by ComAir's 100% Indian IT staff who used a short int instead of a long in in their crew scheduling software which brought the entire system down? No mention of that fact in the news.

Apple CLOSED its R&D in India in 2006 and hires almost all American developers. 0% of Apple's software is written offshore. Did I mention Apple is booming?

How about when MIT's Media Lab Asia had to close because it found out Indian managers were faking invoices?

We're brining people in from the 3rd world who have never seen a lightswitch and then having Americans TRAIN them.

Americans can't compete? I smell some NASSCOM, Wipro, or HCL money behind this article. Rather, it is India that cannot compete - just look at what they've done to our economy.

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Dec 12, 2009 7:30 AM Dolores Dolores  says:

There's nothing knee-jerk about it. How typical of you to play the straw man game. Check out this pdf report from the AFL-CIO.

tinyurl.com/ye8okgf

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Dec 12, 2009 7:34 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Indians have been running around America and the media for over a decade saying all Americans are stupid, Americans can't do the work, America does not have the talent (Azim Premji), or "American grads are unemployable" (HCL's CEO). So after a decade of this vast and elaborate con and takeover of IT by India, Inc. what is the shape of the economy? Not too good, is it Don? BEFORE these people began arriving here in large numbers in late 1998 the U.S. economy is BOOMING. These violent racists from India have been deliverately keeping Americans out of IT because they are trying to take over the IT industry. 4-5 million of them since 1998. And you expect Americans to be CIVIL in the face of these lies, fraud, crimes against Americans, and takeover? This is warfare Don - economic warfare - war is not civil - don't expect it to be. Americans are sick and fed up with the India, Inc, organized crime racket and we're not going to take it lying down any more.

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Dec 12, 2009 7:41 AM Ron Ron  says: in response to Mike

They want to increase the H1B quota by 50,000. They call it ''needed'' because Americans are not there in the Engineering PhD programs. But let us analyze some facts.

American citizens are regularly refused admission and financial assistance to Engineering PhD programs by the American Universities. The professors in these universities love foreign students especially from India and China because they ''listen and obey''. A below minimum wage stipend allows these professors to enjoy their lives while making these student work on the research projects. This is a virtual shameful 'slave labor'' situation. It is really no different than a restaurant hiring an illegal immigrant below minimum wage and making him work sixteen hours day disobeying all labor laws in America.

Who will enjoy these extra 50,000 H1B quota? The American corporation will enjoy by bringing in foreign nationals depressing the wages of American citizens. Every country should be proud of its own population and capabilities. America is not. This is sad. Russia and China do not import foreigners because they cannot do something. Where is the sense of American nationalism - just in the war zones of Iraq? The nationalism starts with providing adequate opportunities for US citizens. The biggest problem in America today is that the American lawmakers are mostly attorneys. They do not get it. Just making sure a child is not left behind is not good enough in this growing high tech world. Adequate stimulus needs to be created to attract Americans towards science, engineering and mathematics. Half of these lawmakers do not even understand the difference between graduate level science and engineering programs.

The 50,000 extra quota of H1B will primarily go towards Indian and other Information Technology body shops supplying ''cyber slaves'' to American companies.

It is time for Americans to oppose illegal immigrations, H1B visas and foreign workers. Think about the following. Let us assume that the Indian and Chinese Governments are asked to allow hundreds of thousands for foreign nationals bombard their countries and taking away technical well paying jobs. What will be the reaction of these Governments? Simply put, they will not even consider it.

The problem in America is class division in the society. The H1B quota is being increased to help the rich Americans and American corporations to artificially lower the professional wages and disregard labor laws in America. When a corporation or university hires someone in H1B, they know that individual cannot work for any other employers. These individuals are regularly abused against all set norms of American labor laws. It is a form of licensed ''illegal immigration'' where the employer gets a free hand to abuse the worker. The H1B visa holders have no place to go. They work day and night with little money and do not even know where to go and report abuses. The American employers love to have these H1B slaves because they are workhorses. The biggest problem of America today is the notion among the American corporations and the rich that free labor is available in the world once you can tap the developing world. It is no different than keeping slaves in the southern plantations before the American civil war. Unfortunately the American lawmakers support what Abraham Lincoln if he were alive today, would have opposed.

American people are world's best but American lawmakers are not. It is time for American lawmakers to refuse political contributions from the rich and the American corporations and show some genuine patriotism and nationalism for America.

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Dec 12, 2009 7:42 AM Ron Ron  says: in response to Mike

They want to increase the H1B quota by 50,000.They call it ''needed'' because Americans are not there in the Engineering PhD programs.But let us analyze some facts.

American citizens are regularly refused admission and financial assistance to Engineering PhD programs by the American Universities.The professors in these universities love foreign students especially from India and China because they ''listen and obey''.A below minimum wage stipend allows these professors to enjoy their lives while making these student work on the research projects.This is a virtual shameful 'slave labor'' situation.It is really no different than a restaurant hiring an illegal immigrant below minimum wage and making him work sixteen hours day disobeying all labor laws in America.

Who will enjoy these extra 50,000 H1B quota?The American corporation will enjoy by bringing in foreign nationals depressing the wages of American citizens.Every country should be proud of its own population and capabilities.America is not.This is sad.Russia and China do not import foreigners because they cannot do something.Where is the sense of American nationalism - just in the war zones of Iraq?The nationalism starts with providing adequate opportunities for US citizens.The biggest problem in America today is that the American lawmakers are mostly attorneys.They do not get it.Just making sure a child is not left behind is not good enough in this growing high tech world.Adequate stimulus needs to be created to attract Americans towards science, engineering and mathematics.Half of these lawmakers do not even understand the difference between graduate level science and engineering programs.

The 50,000 extra quota of H1B will primarily go towards Indian and other Information Technology body shops supplying ''cyber slaves'' to American companies.

It is time for Americans to oppose illegal immigrations, H1B visas and foreign workers.Think about the following.Let us assume that the Indian and Chinese Governments are asked to allow hundreds of thousands for foreign nationals bombard their countries and taking away technical well paying jobs.What will be the reaction of these Governments?Simply put, they will not even consider it.

The problem in America is class division in the society.The H1B quota is being increased to help the rich Americans and American corporations to artificially lower the professional wages and disregard labor laws in America.When a corporation or university hires someone in H1B, they know that individual cannot work for any other employers.These individuals are regularly abused against all set norms of American labor laws.It is a form of licensed ''illegal immigration'' where the employer gets a free hand to abuse the worker.The H1B visa holders have no place to go.They work day and night with little money and do not even know where to go and report abuses.The American employers love to have these H1B slaves because they are workhorses.The biggest problem of America today is the notion among the American corporations and the rich that free labor is available in the world once you can tap the developing world.It is no different than keeping slaves in the southern plantations before the American civil war.Unfortunately the American lawmakers support what Abraham Lincoln if he were alive today, would have opposed.

American people are world's best but American lawmakers are not.It is time for American lawmakers to refuse political contributions from the rich and the American corporations and show some genuine patriotism and nationalism for America.

Reply
Dec 12, 2009 7:43 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Mike

Ron is selling out his own country's economy by taking $ from NASSCOM's PR agency to write this crap.

Everyone today loves to blame George Bush for the recession.

Not so fast.

The roots of this recession were sown in late 1998 and early 2000 when then-president Bill Clinton signed massive guest worker visa increases into law.Let's recap the history of how this current communsim called globalization caused this recession.

1998 - Economic boom in progress - created by American IT workers.Long before foreign guest workers began arriving in large numbers.Biggest economic boom in American history.H-1B visa caps at a mere 65,000 per year.

Oct.1998 - Bill Clinton signs the first massive guest worker visa increase to raise the caps from 65,000 to 115,000 per year.

April 2000 - Bill Clinton signs another massive increase - raising the caps from 115,000 to 195,000 per year.

Both these increases led to a massive flood of guest workers from the 3rd world into America - primarily into Silicon Valley.From late 1998 to Oct 2003 at least 1.1 million flooded in on H-1B visas, and at least 1-2 million flooded in on L-1 visas.Nearly all the new workers were from countries with terrible track records in innovation - 3rd world countries like India which still haven't mastered clean water or reliable electricity.

By late 2003 the hordes of invading workers had pushed the great American workers who created the tech boom out - out of the industry completely.Workers from India and China both hold deep historical grievances against Americans - they won't hire Americans because of it - not because Americans are not skilled.

This mass replacement of America's brilliant workers with incapable ones led to massive economic collapse in 2001, massive job loss, and a near-total loss of innovation.Not to mention that while American workers spend into the economy, creating new jobs, foreign guest workers send their money out of the country back home - causing demand for goods and services to drop.Hence, guest workers cause recession, rather than helping the economy.

To compensate for the massive job loss and capital loss, the Fed pumped huge amounts of cheap credit into the U.S.economy in order to create a "fake recovery" - there never was any economic recovery in 2004-2005.It was all prop-ups using cheap credit.The credit ran out in 2008 and surprise!Another econmic collapse.The 2008 collapse was merely an extension of the real collapse - caused in 2001 by the flood of 3rd world workers.

The seeds of today's recession were planted when Bill Clinton signed the massive guest worker visa increases.If Silicon Valley had never been disrupted in late 1998 by the mass influx of incompetent foreign workers, there never would have been a recession either in 2000 or in 2008 and we wouldn't be in this mess right now.America continues to import over a million foreign workers a year - who send their paychecks home - jobs that would be occupied by American workers who would spend into the economy if the foreign workers were not here.

The conclusion is simple:Bill Clinton caused this recession by flooding America with foreign workers in 1998 and 2000 - millions of whom are still here.

Not a single mention in the media today about how the guest workers have not kept the economy going as promised.

Americans spend into the economy.

Foreign workers send their money home.

If you don't have consumers buying things, you can't have a good economy. Reply

Dec 12, 2009 7:43 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Mike
It's that simple.

The current recession has nothing to do with Bush - his only mistake was not deporting all the TEMPORARY guest workers as agreed in 1998.

Now you know the real reason for the recession - it's seeds were sown in Oct.1998.

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Dec 12, 2009 7:44 AM Yelp Yelp  says: in response to James

US visa-fraud scheme broken up in Brazil

economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international-business/US-visa-fraud-scheme-broken-up-in-Brazil/articleshow/5312562.cms

SAO PAULO: Authorities arrested 11 people on Monday in an alleged US work-visa scam that raked in more than $50 million from thousands of Brazilians since 2002. Some of those scammed went to the US and wound up as illegal aliens because promised jobs didn't exist.

Brazilians seeking temporary working visas were charged up to $15,000 each in what a statement from the US Consulate called one of the largest cases of US visa fraud ever. Similar schemes were uncovered in Russia, the Dominican Republic, the Philippines, Romania and the United Arab Emirates.

Police are still searching for seven suspects, including one who holds US citizenship, said Aline Alves, the state prosecutor. Assisted by US officials, Alves headed the investigation into the fraud in Latin America's largest city.

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Dec 12, 2009 7:44 AM James James  says: in response to Bob

A history of India's Excuses For Immigrating To The U.S.

Over the years, India and Corporate America have both changed the story numerous times on why America needs more allegedly super-brilliant people from 3rd world countries such as India.Let's review this conjob and see how this message driven mainly by NASSCOM has evolved over the years.

1998 - America's economy is booming and there aren't enough qualified workers to fill all the jobs.Never mind that in 1998 every American college kid across the country was lined up to go into IT - America needed more temporary workers from India!This is the now infamous lie that NASSCOM propagated on the U.S.public by hiring D.C.PR/lobbying firm Hill &Knowlton to pump these stories into the U.S.media.This lie was one of the prime ways India got the guest worker visa caps raised into the hundreds of thousands in 1998 &2000.

2003 - America collapsed in 2001 and even though there's a recession, Americans are too supid to do the work so now America needs more workers from India.How is it possible that 2-4 million American IT workers all got collective amnesia in just 5 years - the same American workers who built the IT industry long before Indian workers began arriving in large numbers in 1998?You will also note that the media also conveniently began to drop the term 'temporary' around the same time - once the invasion happened, there was no longer any need to tell the American people that the workers would only be here temporarily.Can't have the American people asking why the TEMPORARY guest workers are still here and didn't go home as promised after the boom was over.This began India's massive media campaign to discredit American workers as being stupid, even though it is India, and not America that is unable to produce its own operating system.Who are the stupid ones?Americans created the IT industry.

2005 - During America's fake mid-decade recovery (which was nothing more than smoke and mirrors provided by nearly unlimited cheap Fed credit), the argument changed again.Once it was proven that the TEMPORARY guest workers were still here, and once it became obvious that they had harmed, not helped, the U.S.economy, the new argument became "But globalization is good for you and so these workers should be allowed to stay".NASSCOM and India, Inc.conshops like Wipro also started making excuses such as "Yes, but having Indian workers take over the IT sector frees up Americans to do higher-level work".As Robert X.Cringely replied "Oh, really?And What would that work be"?Duh - IT IS the high level work.

2008 - Once the U.S.economy collapsed completely due to mass India, Inc.incompetence, the argument changed again:this time the argument became:"Well immigrants can help buy up some of the foreclosed homes and help contribute to the economy".No mention of how they would contribute now since they hadn't done so in any way over the past decade they have been here.When someone breaks into your house and robs you blind, you don't turn around and give them your house too, do you?

2009 - The latest con, mainly propagated by India, Inc.conman and twice-failed entrepreneur Vivek Wadhwa (also know as Fraudwha in certain circles), is that America needs more foreign-born founders in order to recover because they allegedly create jobs.Wadhwa admits himself in his "study" that 25% of Silicon Valley founders are foreign.If that's the case, then why has America lost 16 million white collar jobs since 1998 - the same year the invasion began? Reply

Dec 12, 2009 7:44 AM James James  says: in response to Bob
If foreign-born founders haven't been able to create 10 or 20 million new white collar jobs in the U.S.in the decade they have been here, why should we keep importing more of them?Logic would dictate that doing so would only cause the economy further harm.If a decade of throwing America's VC money down the India rathole has failed to produce any jobs, why would we think continuing to do so would make things better?The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Other arguments are also floating around from the Indian Mafia such as "You can't stop globaliztion (yes, we can), "immigrants founded Intel" (it was founded by two Americans - Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore), and "But look at Apple, Apple is booming" (Apple CLOSED its R&D in India in 2006 and hires mostly American software developers - 0% of Apple's software is made offshore), and the latest con:"Just because you were born in America as an accident does not entitle you to a job" (Really?Title 8, Section 1182 of Federal law says otherwise).

Expect India, Inc.to continue to change the arguments as their lies are consistently exposed on the internet.  

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Dec 12, 2009 7:47 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Yelp

Some simple facts about highly-skilled workers from the 3rd world.This is not opinion.These are facts.

- Indians didn't create the tech boom, Americans did.Indians destroyed the tech boom.

- The H-1B guest worker visa program was started in 1991 with an annual cap of 65,000 visas.

- The L-1 visa program was started in the 1970s and was designed for intracompany transfers only.It has since been abused to bring in foreign nationals for services companies and then place them at their clients - which is illegal.

- From 1978 to 1998 - including the 90's boom - the demographic in the IT industry was 98% white American males.The U.S.economy was booming in 1998.

- In late 1998, India (and the rest of the world) sat up and took notice of the huge amount of wealth America's tech workers were generating.India decided they wanted to take over what Americans had created and get the $ for themselves.But how?Answer:Public Relations of course!So India's IT lobby, NASSCOM, hired D.C.PR/lobbying firm Hill &Knowlton to plant fake "worker shortage" stories in the U.S.media in 1998.While most Americans were busy enjoying the fruits of their labors, India was plotting how to invade and take over America.This barrage of news alleging a worker shortage story was the vehicle by which India, Inc.convinced America to permit the next step:

- In late 1998 and early 2000, the H-1B visa caps were raised from 65,000 a year to 115,000 per year and 195,00 per year, respectively.Then-president Bill Clinton - not George Bush - signed the increases.Tech workers from India didn't begin arriving in the U.S.in large numbers until late 1998.How could they have created the 90's tech boom when they weren't even here?The tech boom was created by Americans.Now that Americans have been driven out by the imported workers, the Silicon Valley and U.S.economies are a disaster.

- As a result of the 1998 &2000 increases, 1.1 million foreign guest workers came into the U.S.from October 1998 to October 2003.According to the U.S.Dept.of Labor, 90% of those H-1B visas went to people from India.These people promptly took over America's tech jobs and drove Americans out of them.

- A unknown number more came in during the same time period on the L-1 intracompany transfer visa, which has been heavily abused by Indian outsourcing companies such as Wipro, InfoSys, and Tata.The number of L-1s who came in from 1998-2003 is at least 1 million, maybe 2 million.

- There is no yearly cap on L-1 visas.

- The H-1B visa cap reverted back to 65,000 per year in Oct.2003.Despite this, over a million foreign guest workers continue to come into the U.S.every single year - even during periods of record unemployment, such as today.

- The U.S.economy went from booming to collapse the same year of the 2nd H-1B increase - proof that the foreign guest workers did not perform as promised.

- In fact, the U.S.economy has been in decline since 2000 or 2001.The government tried to offset the decline by making huge amounts of cheap credit available to make up for lost jobs and lower wages caused by the flood of cheap labor from the developing world.The credit ran out in 2008 and the real economy now is the result.

- There has been no real economic growth in the U.S.since the 2000-2001 collapse.

- Since the millions of guest workers arrived in 1998 and 2000, 14-16 million white collar American jobs have been destroyed. Reply

Dec 12, 2009 7:48 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Mike

U.S. Code Collection

TITLE 8, CHAPTER 12, SUBCHAPTER II, Part II, 1182

1182. Inadmissible aliens

(5) Labor certification and qualifications for certain immigrants

(A) Labor certification

In general, any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that-

(I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified

(or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and

(II) the employment of such alien will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States similarly employed.

(ii) Certain aliens subject to special rule For purposes of clause

(I), an alien described in this clause is an alien who-

(I) is a member of the teaching profession, or

(II) has exceptional ability in the sciences or the arts.

(iii) Professional athletes

www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001182----000-.html

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Dec 12, 2009 7:48 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Yelp
Approximately 1-2 million of those have been offshored - the rest have been destroyed.Promises by guest workers to help the U.S.economy in 1998 have never materialized.The opposite has happened.

- Despite common myths, there is no legal requirement in the H-1B laws which requires an employer to look for and hire an American worker instead of a foreign worker.

- Protections for American workers are provided in Federal law under Title 8, Section 1182, which defines who is an inadmissible alien, but those laws are being ignored and are not enforced.

- Most H-1Bs that enter the U.S.from developing countries such as India and China are not skilled as claimed - they are being trained by Americans when they get here - which makes both the applicant and hiring company guilty of fraud, which is a felony.

- American companies are using the H-1B and other work visa programs as a way to displace and bypass American workers in favor of cheaper foreign labor.

- Most foreign imported workers who come to the U.S.to work on work visas make less than their American counterparts.Companies love imported workers because companies think they increase profits by cutting costs.Cost-cutting is a sign of a company in trouble.In reality, long-term cheaper foreign workers harm American profits because long-term increased profits rely on innovation, not lower costs - and countries like India and China have terrible track records in innovation.

- Due to historical and ideological factors, most of the foreign workers we are brining to the U.S.are deliberately keeping skilled Americans out of the workforce by denying them jobs.The foreign workers claim Americans are too stupid, but Americans created the IT industry.The real reason Americans are being kept out of the workforce is because of racism, hypernationalism, communists in corporations who hate capitalism and hate America, and because of historical resentments by the guest workers themselves.Britain invaded and colonized India 150 years ago.Indians think the evil white man stole all their wealth.Hence Indians think they are entitled to break the law and deny jobs to Americans.It's payback time.Britain colonized China by taking control of Hong Kong from 1898 to 1997.The Opium Wars enslaved China and weakened it.Hence most Chinese resent hate white people.The Chinese are also deeply jealous that the U.S.has far surpassed them in just 250 years and China has been around for 6000 years.

- Both China and India resent America because both countries are communist or socialist and hence the U.S.would not trade with them for 50 years - from the end of World War 2 until globalization began in 1997.Most Chinese and Indians believe that they were kept out of the world economy by America and hence they want to do the same to us.Mexicans hate Americans because NAFTA disrupted the local Mexican economy when it was flooded with American goods by greedy American executives who wanted to find new consumers to sell to.

- Foreign guest workers are conducting a systematic campaign of ethnic cleansing - cleansing Americans from jobs in their own country.The reasons why are covered above.

- China is all about "saving face".America's success makes China look bad.The Chinese are jealous of us.Many imported guest workers from China will deny jobs to brilliant Americans simply because they are Americans - even to the point of making companies fail by staffing them with incompetent foreign guest workers who can't do the jobs. Reply

Dec 12, 2009 7:48 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Yelp
Can't hire Americans you know - that increases the prestige of Americans and decreases the prestige of Chinese.What do they care what they do to Americans?As long as the can fake it long enough to grift out VC-funded companies and send the money home, it's ok - after all, the evil white man oppressed China and hence China is entitled to America's money - even without performing as advertised.The cleanout of American VC-funded tech companies by fraudulent foreign workers is one of the prime causes of both the "credit crisis" (money going overseas when foreign workers send their paychecks home), and high unemployment (foreign workers not doing the jobs, and cusing companies to fail, thus reducing the number of jobs in the economy).It's not just how many people are working that matters, it's who is working.Workers from developing countries not only want our money, they want to see our economy fail - after all, that lowers U.S.prestige in the world and makes the other countries who can't compete look relatively better.If you can't beat your competition, just attack them instead, take their money, but collapse all their companies while you are at it.

- The U.S.currently exports $45 billion a year in wages to India alone and over $70 bllion a year to Mexico.Wonder where the capital in our banks is going?It's not being used to create jobs in America or being spent into the American economy - it's being shipped overseas by guest workers here.

- India wants to be known as the IT capital of the world - despite the fact that India is incapable of creating it own operating system.Name one software application that comes from India.Name one Indian software company anyone has heard of - not services companies like Wipro, Tata, etc - Indian companies that actually produce software they sell - none exist.

- More software comes from Scandanavia than from India.

- The average Indian IQ is 81.The average American IQ is 98.The average Japanese IQ is 107.The average German IQ is 100.Why aren't we importing a million workers a year from Japan and Germany?Why only from 3rd world countries?Answer:people from 3rd world countries are not the best and the brightest - they are the opposite - we are importing them for International Socialism - so that they can enjoy the fruits of the labor of productive countries like the U.S.

- Name one new industry or invention to come out of India or China in 250 years.Auto industry - America.TV &radio industries - America.Aerospace industries - America.Light bulbs, integrated circuits, computers, the internet, software - all of it comes from America, invented and created by Americans.Modern manufacturing, assembly line process - American.Now name one new industry or invention to come from India or China in 250 years - there are none.America doesn't need these workers.

Foreign-born founders and their contributions to America

- There has been much talk recently of the contributions of foreign-born founders to America.While it is true that there are some few rare exceptions, the reality is the vast majority of immigrants are here to take from us and send money home - as well as to acquire skills from Americans so they can be more like us.

- A few immigrants have made contributions to America - many of them from Europe.Many of them over 40 years ago.Einstein and von Braun come to mind.A few others more recently from non-European countries - Vinhod Kosla at Sun, the creator of Hotmail, or Amit Singh. Reply

Dec 12, 2009 7:49 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Yelp
But again, they are the rare exceptions, not the rule.The fact is, a decade of importing millions of foreign workers is not making the U.S.economy grow - it was growing in the 90's - before they got here, not now.

- For every one outstanding immigrant who does contribute, we are bringing in at least 10,000 destructive ones who are only here for our money and jobs.- immigrants who take and destroy as our economy is now proving.

- Let's talk companies and who founded them.As a rationale for why immigrants need to come help America, the immigrants themselves have been telling lies about who founded what companies.Let's set the record straight.

- Intel - Intel was not founded by immigrants.It was founded by 2 Americans - Robert Noyce and Gordon Moore (of Moore's Law fame).

- Yahoo!- Yahoo!was founded by one American - David Filo - and one immigrant - Jerry Yang.But Yang came to the U.S.at age 6 from Taiwan - a developed country.He was raised here and went to school here.He's more American than immigrant.

- Google - Google was founded by one American - Larry Page - and one immigrant - Sergei Brin.But Brin came from Russia, not India or China - and he came here at age 3 and grew up here and was educated here.He's more American than immigrant.

- Microsoft - Founded by two Americans - Bill Gates and Paul Allen.

- Apple - Founded by two Americans - Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.Apple is booming today.Why?Apple CLOSED its R&D in India in 2006 and hires mostly Americans for all of its software development.0% of Apple's software development is done offshore.

- Sun - Founded by 2 Americans, 1 German, and 1 Indian.Sun's CEO for the 1st 25 years was Scott McNeally - an American.Sun's operating system was architected by another American co-founder - Bill Joy.In 2001 Sun was taken over by legions of foreign guest workers from India and China - and Sun is now losing $150 million a quarter and is being sold off to Oracle to avoid the embarrassment of closing its doors with foreign guest workers running it.

Now let's go down the list of companies damaged or destroyed by foreign imported labor since 1998:

PeopleSoft - Taken over by imported Indian workers in 2000 - had to be sold off to Oracle to avoid embarrassment of closing.

Sun Micro - Dying.See above.

Bell Labs - Taken over by Indian-national Arun Netravalli in 2003.Bell Labs where the transistor, UNIX, and the C programming language were invented is now being turned into a shopping mall.

Quark - Taken over by Indian national Alukah Kamar - who laid off all the American developers and sent the work to India.The products became so bad that 60% of Quark's customer base defected to Adobe InDesign, never to return.Kamar was later fired but not before permanent harm was done to Quark.

Computer Associates' former CEO from India is now serving 12 years in federal prison for fraud.

MIT Media Lab Asia - Closed in 2006 due to faked invoices in India.

Intel Whitefield processor project - this project in India was cancelled when Intel discovered that many of the "engineers" had faked their resumes.

ComAir - ComAir's 100% Indian IT staff caused the nationwide 2005 Christmas day airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int in the crew scheduling software they were working on.So much for the best and the brightest from overseas contributing to the American economy.

Boeing Dreamliner - Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner airplane has been delayed 5 times - in part because of failed software written by India's HCL Technologies - whose CEO once said "American grads are unemployable".

Lehman - This failed Wall St. Reply

Dec 12, 2009 7:49 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Yelp
institution had purchased Wipro's Spectramind software (which they in turn had bought from someone else and messed up) just before it went bankrupt.It also had hired large numbers of India, Inc.workers just before it went under.

Dell - Outsourced a lot of work to India over the past decade.Profits are now down 54%.Michael Dell once said "Stability is more important than growth".

United/Delta - Both companies brought their call centers back to the U.S.from India when they discovered that foreign call centers were harming their business.

HSBC - ATM software was taken over by India, Inc., ATMs began failing in 2006.

AIG - Signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture, collapsed in 2009.

Vodaphone - UK's top cell phone vendor has gone into major decline - in part because its CEO from India didn't do the job and walked out with over $41 million in compensation for doing nothing.

World Bank - Indian, Inc.fraudsters including Wipro were BANNED for 3 years because they stole data.

The verdict is in:Whatever else immigrants and foreign born founders are doing to America, on balance, they are causing net harm to the U.S.economy - harm that is the cause of our current economic problems.No amount of hype, news stories, studies, or commentaries will change the above facts about the effects of foreign guest workers on the U.S.economy.

A huge army of conmen from India numbering into the several millions have spent a decade cleaning out America's economy.America's moronic MBA managers and boomers who know nothing about technology have been conned by this elaborate PR-driven charade and have been duped into throwing Americans who created IT out and replacing them with incompetent conmen.The end result is what you see now:a destroyed American economy and a vast transferrence of America's wealth to India.People like Vivek Fraudwha are India's cheerleaders and keep shouting from the rooftops that this is good for us, but based on the state of the economy, it clearly isn't.

Now you know the exact chronology of what has happened to America's economy and who is responsible.All the fluff you hear on the evening news is just cover for what has really happened:we've been invaded and plundered by foreign interests - that's all.

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Dec 12, 2009 8:00 AM Jeff Jeff  says: in response to Mike

Let's talk about foreign-born founder startup Caymas - Indian CEO, French director of dev (Pierre Rafiq), and Chinese tech lead (Jeff Kaan). They got loads of America's VC money and hired lots of developers from China, India, Viet Nam. After 5 years of draining all this capital, the money ran out and Caymas went BELLY UP. One more fake immigrants startup that FAILED and wasted America's captial. Now that money is all sitting in foreign banks because the foreign guest workers sent all their paychecks home. No wonder our economy is such a disaster.

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Dec 12, 2009 11:13 AM EndH1b Admin EndH1b Admin  says:

Don, the rhetorical race war was started by your Indian outsourcing patrons, and we American techies are now taking it to the next level.  Note the many instances of violence against Hispanics in response to the flood of illegal aliens from south of the border.  Expect the same against the cheap, low-skill indentured servants with H-1Bs. 

And by not supporting American techies, and scolding them like some prig, you are enabling thugs like Sarvesh Kumar, head of Desi bodyshop Apex Tech, who exploits H-1Bs, sues them if they report his scams, and then sues Americans like me for reporting his frauds.  Read more, traitor:

tinyurl.com/ydjg7bv

The H-1B is a high-tech slave trade, nothing more.  Now the AFL-CIO is on the case, 2 bills are pending in the Senate to abolish it, and Infosys, etc. is getting caught practicing anti-American bigotry and discrimination and is getting dragged into court. 

Unfortunately creeps like you still shill for the enemy, enabling this invasion of fascists in American I.T.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Dec 12, 2009 11:17 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says: in response to Jim

He is a castrated collaborator, Roy.  He doesn't deserve civility.  After the American techies win this battle, writers like Don and Ann Al, propagandists for NASSCOM and USINPAC, will be lucky writing copy for the PennySaver.

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Dec 12, 2009 12:18 PM Jim Jim  says: in response to Roy Lawson

Don, both the House and the Senate, are planning yet another assault on the Americna worker, as soon as next Tuesday (nice timing, hiding it in the holiday season) in the worst unemployment in 25 years  'More H-1bs - HO HO HO Merry Economic Depression Christmass" from Congress, and YOUR immediate concern is frustration in comments on message boards?!?!?

 

 

 

High-skilled immigration to be addressed in Schumer-Graham bill

By Kim Hart - 12/10/09 07:35 AM ET

A report released this week by the Center for American Progress (CAP) includes recommendations that could serve as a blue-print of sorts for a broad immigration reform bill being crafted by Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY), chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee Immigration subcommittee, and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC).

thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/71477-high-skilled-immigration-to-be-addressed-in-schumer-graham-bill

Rep. Luis Gutierrez renewing push for immigration reform Tuesday

By Lynn Sweeton December 11, 2009 8:56 AM | Permalink | Comments (11)

Below, from Gutierrez....

"Comprehensive Immigration Reform for America's Security and Prosperity"

to be Introduced December 15

(Washington D.C.) On Tuesday, December 15, Congressman Luis V. Gutierrez (D-IL) will introduce new legislation, the Comprehensive Immigration Reform for America's Security and Prosperity Act of 2009 (CIR ASAP), to the U.S. House of Representatives. Gutierrez will be joined by members of many different faiths and backgrounds, including the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, Black Caucus, Asian Pacific American Caucus and Progressive Caucus.

blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/12/rep_luis_gutierrez_renewing_pu.html

roy says in another post "And those issues go un-noticed also  For example, the IT occupation has been singled out as exempt from overtime.  Vacation hours are routinely stolen (expired/not rolled over).  We have very high turnover"

They're all related to H-1b - to have those labor pracices, which existed prior to the big H-1b increases, requires a never ending stream of 'fresh meat'.  When I was younger, a 'big 6' partner, who saw me as 'up and coming' showed me that 'Death Marches" are PLANNED, becasue the hours over 40 are FREE - he showed me the project economics of doing so.  My plans for a future in IT management evaporated in that instant - I could never become 'one of them'

like Don

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Dec 12, 2009 12:34 PM Jim Jim  says: in response to Jim

and another thing - it's not the comments about the slave labor that's giving IT a black eye

it's the slave labor itself

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Dec 13, 2009 1:22 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says: in response to Wayne

STFU, Wayne.  We don't need our hands slapped by PC collaborators like you.  Either you are not in I.T., or you are disloyal douchebag who feels guilty about hiring packs of feral H-1Bs from a sh*thole subcontinent.

Feminized wusses like you make my blood boil, with your cowering demands for civility, all the while ignoring the Indu-invaders that laugh behind your back because they know that it is because of cowards such as yourself, they can purge Americans out of entire I.T. departments with impunity.

SO PLEASE, go do us real Americans a favor -- please remove the curry-scented gland out of your mouth.  You are a shill, and you are making Americans look bad with your prudish comments.

And the only bigots here are the Indian upper-caste fascists that are trying to take over the American I.T. market.  Now go do some reading, pansy:

"But, as if that's not enough, Awasthi says some of her Infosys colleagues criticized America in another way, one that would surely make the blood of Lou Dobbs boil:  When the America economy was going through its recent shudders, causing massive layoffs across the US corporate landscape,  Awasthi claims that many at the company celebrated as the economy went south.

"Every time the layoff news comes, they're happy," she says. "They say this is good for us, those jobs will be outsourced."

www.nbcbayarea.com/news/tech/Tech-Giant-Heads-to-Court-Over-Holiday-Teasing-78556042.html

HERE IS MORE, WAYNE, AND DON, YOU SPINELESS TOOLS:

"American Woman Forced To Train Indian Replacement, Then Fired By Indian Boss"

endh1b.com/Web/blogs/endh1b/archive/2009/09/27/american-women-forced-to-train-indian-replacement-then-fired-by-indian-boss.aspx

Finally, don't worry, Don the Douchebag doesn't have the gonads to keep these posts up -- his handlers at Infosys, WiPro, and Tata will soon force him to take it all down.

Isn't that right, Don?  You will purge all the nasty comments and post some snarky comment about the unemployed, disgruntled racists in American I.T., correct?

I DARE YOU, F*CKING TRAITOR.  I DARE YOU TO POST ONE REAL STORY ABOUT AMERICANS GETTING THEIR CAREERS DESTROYED BY YOUR INDIAN SPONSORS.

Good luck getting any more suckers to read your propaganda on this internet backwater after you are revealed as groveling tool of USINPAC.

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Dec 13, 2009 1:51 AM Wayne Wayne  says:

How's this for a novel idea...let's stay on topic and discuss the real issues, whether related to H-1B, pending legislation, or something similar.  For those of you (like Roy Lawson, for example) who have restricted their comments to the civil and logicalregardless of which side of the argument you favorthe rest of us out here on the Internet thank you.  It is unproductive to have to sift through ridiculous comments that are nothing but anger dipped in racism.  I don't agree with everything that Don said"our inability to compete," for examplebut when those who choose to make their arguments using the voice of bigotry, it only validates the initial assertion that "snide anti-foreigner rhetoric" is drowning out the real conversation worth having.

So, please.  Enough with the "boot licking propagandist, "creeps like you," "castrated collaborator," and "f*cking pig" comments.  For that matter, enough with the "brown, musky, low-wage visa workers" comments.  You're not making anyone look bad but yourself.

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Dec 13, 2009 4:57 AM Boycott Microsoft Boycott Microsoft  says:

Main Street - we have POWER and NOW is time to flex our muscle. Its time America hears OUR VOICE

Until we take matters into our own hands - NOTHING will change. Thanks to corrupt politicians paid off by greedy corporate executives, the murder of the American middle class will continue.

Main Street can END H-1B Abuse. Here a cheap, simple, and effective way to STOP H-1B abuse and fraud dead in its tracks.

How?

Boycott Microsoft.

Start with Microsoft, the world's largest and most abusive offender of H-1B and L-1 visa programs. The other offenders will fall like dominos. And, what better time than the Christmas holidays.

Say NO to Windows7. Say YES to employing US tech workers.

Say NO to XBOX. Say YES to giving your kid a future career.

Say NO to BING (don't use it). Say Yes to vaporizing Microsoft ad dollars and hitting MS where it hurts - their income statement. Main Street -

This holiday, a NO to Microsoft is a YES to laid off workers.

By boycotting Microsoft we can give hope to talented laid off Americans who are spending a cold winter living in their cars because they were displaced by egregious corporate greed and political corruption.

Boycott Microsoft. The Job You Save May Be Your Own.

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Dec 13, 2009 6:09 AM Gabriel Gabriel  says: in response to Tunnel Rat

Ah, the familiar aroma of internet-driven excessiveness. Take one world wide web, add anonymity and a topic that arouses discussion, stir until the toughened skin of the unemployed has been tenderized by self-pity, and sniff the thickened gumbo that results: a depressingly misplaced anger toward those willing to accept less in return for more.

An oversimplification, to be sure. But the symptoms are still discord and disunity, when those of us who remain unemployed or underemployed (I count myself blessed to have a job, even though it's not at all something I'd like to do for any length of time longer than I have to) should be working to better ourselves for the future -- not bog ourselves down in pointless flaming.

Of course, I'm one to talk. Until I get my masters, I'm fairly certain I'm not getting out of my current situation. But I'm not lining up to go back to school, and who's fault is that? Not to be overtly cliche, but mirrors can be fortuitously telling.

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Dec 13, 2009 7:12 AM Savoian Savoian  says:

Call me a coward, but I hesitated to comment on this post until I saw the comments made by such voices of reason as Wayne and Gabriel. I am not one to usually enter the fray, particularly on the internet-where, as Gabriel pointed out, tensions run high and calm discussions are virtually nonexistent. What a shame that the best forums for discussion must be tainted by worthless and disgusting comments.

I find it amusing that Tunnel Rat is so sure of his belief that Don's blog postings are viewed negatively by his "handlers." Is the title not "From Under the Rug"? "The more sensitive it is, the more it warrants discussion" I read beneath. At the risk of assumption, I believe it was Don's intention to foster debate by introducing hot-button issues. I congratulate him on what must amount to an impressive number of page views and an obvious abundance of discussion.

To Don: Thank you for having, as Tunnel Rat stated, the gonads. I have been a reader of your editorials for the duration of your time at Computerworld, and was very pleased to find out that I would no longer have to miss out on your superbly presented point of view. Best of luck to you, and I look forward to your future postings.

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Dec 13, 2009 10:11 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to Savoian

The reason this anti-Indian rhetoric is dangerous is because it offers a convenient explanation while stealthily hiding key economic issues. People who are hurting due to unemployment are clearly vulnerable to fault-finding. Add to it the propensity for humans to a seek "an" explanation, rather than the whole gamut of explanations before jumping to conclusions (ironically thoroughness in research has been deemed to be too mechanical to be human and hence our dependence on Google).

Insitgators like TunnelRat are making some headway in an environment such as this one.

Indian outsourcing firms are everyone's favorite punching bag. They hire a large number of Indian H-1Bs (accurately, they used to, until the last H-1B cycle) displacing American IT workers. That's an easy explanation, right?

Well, the US has a huge trade imbalance with the rest of the world. US is a net importer to the tune of $700 billion each year. However, the US exports more services (IT and all other kinds) than it imports - almost a surplus of $150 billion ($550 billion in exports, $400 billion in imports).

Let's zoom in on the trade balance with India. The US trade deficit with India is $10 billion. Most of it is accounted for by goods. The trade deficit in terms of services is less than $2 billion.

You can do the math. Is $2 billion really anything compared to the larger numbers above - why is it getting everyone's panties in a bunch?

Another convenient exclusion. The US permanent immigration system has been so much of a fiasco that I am have been on an H-1B for 7 years. I know of others who have been on it for at least 10. When programmersguild crunches H-1B numbers each year, guess who gets counted each time? Yep, that's right. Per the magic arithmetic of such organizations, I took on 7 avatars over the last 7 years taking up 7 American IT jobs (leading to 7 suicides).

They give out 140,000 greencards every year to people like me. The 12 million undocumented workers here illegally are not anywhere close to stealing the number of jobs that we Satans do. Fun fact: Did you know they give out 50,000 greencards (that's >35% of the number given to employment based folks) in a veritable lottery system each year? Yep, the serial killer from some island in Polynesia can apply for a greencard as part of being in a "diversity" group and live here permanently should the slot machine oblige.

Yet, I am the enemy. After slogging my ass off in 2 separate grad schools in the US, and finally making 6 digits, I am definitely taking the job of an American IT worker with an associate degree making 60 grand somewhere.

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Dec 14, 2009 3:33 AM Jim Jim  says: in response to Dolores

Q: "What do you call an American citizen who wants to work in IT in his or her own country"

A: "A Racist"

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Dec 14, 2009 6:05 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Wayne

Hey Wayne, please tell us all out here on the internet why it is ok for India to be racist but not for Americans to be? If America were racist would we continue to allow over a million foreign workers into USA every single year? In India it is ILLEGAL to hire white people. ILLEGAL. Laws on the books. Why don't you try learning about the reality in the rest of the world before you start pointing your fingers at your own countrymen - if you are American at all, that is.

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Dec 14, 2009 6:11 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Gabriel

You can go get all the degrees you want. If you have some Indian who hates whites for historical reasons sitting across the desk from you during the interview, your degrees are worthless. This is all payback for Britain's colonization of India 150 years ago. Faking conmen from India by the millions are here cleaning out the U.S. economy doing their duty for their country in recoving their "stolen wealth" from the evil white man who robbed them 150 years ago. These people are not skilled. Many of them have never seen a lightswitch in their lives and come from Aztec-like tribes in a backwards prehistorical country. The best they can do when given an American job is to say "Oh ok" after asking Americans to train them. No wonder America's economy is such a mess. Go ahead and get a dozen PhDs - they won't help you. There are already millions of American PhDs and Masters unemployed right now due to India, Inc. hyperracism going on in companies all over USA.

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Dec 14, 2009 6:17 AM James James  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Indian_H1B,

You've got all those degrees and make 6 figures. Now please tell us:

1) How much money you send home every month.

2) Which products you've actually CREATED. What have you actually PRODUCED?

Vaguge claims of "degrees" and being "brilliant" don't make an economy work. Production and creation do. Now please tell us what you've actually DONE for the American economy. If you can't, you don't belong here.

India's "trade surplus" of $2 billion doesn't count remittances sent home by NRIs. Currently NRIs in USA send $40 billion home annually - year after year after year. I am sure being someone with such a great brain you can do the math and see what an economic drain NRI remittances are on the U.S. economy - every one of those dollars would be a dollar spent into the U.S. economy if paid to an American worker instead of a remittance-hungry NRI who only wants to live here 6 years and then go home and retire on his remittances.

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Dec 14, 2009 6:22 AM Mike Mike  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Boosting income tax? That's a good one! 1998 - Americans running IT, record salaries, Federal budget SURPLUS. 2008 - Indians running IT, America's economy collapses, lower salaries, record shortfall in income taxes, and hence, RECORD DEFICITS. That large 2-masters-degree brain of yours doesn't seem to be too good at simple logic. You force wages down, tax receipts also go down. 5 million people getting paid $50K instead of 5 million people getting paid $150K cuts tax revenues by 2/3. Duh. H-1Bs helped cause the economic mess we are in by choking off tax receipts. Anyone claiming H-1Bs causes tax receipts to go up is a flat-out liar.

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Dec 14, 2009 6:40 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Typical Indian carny redirection. If this dude is even telling the truth about all his grad school work, he is implying that H-1Bs are like this. People who actually work with them have a very different story to tell: faked credentials, inflated resumes, and skill sets puffed up full of air. Newsflash: the H-1B is not an immigration visa, and anyone who comes here on that visa expecting to immigrate is like a person buying a lotto ticket. Maybe it will work out, maybe not. There is NO promise of immigration given by the H-1B program. It is a temporary work visa (well, it is supposed to be temporary) and a lot of people who use it as if it were a stepping stone to immigration are destined for a let-down. But these brainiacs don't seem good at reading the fine print.

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Dec 14, 2009 11:04 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to Dolores

I've seen enough of your bilge all over the anti-H1B landscape to not expect anything remotely close to an intelligent retort. Nonetheless, the point of bringing in immigration in this context is because it conveniently skews the true H-1B usage - something dishonestly misused by senseless factions such as the one you represent.

That the H-1B has been misused is an understatement. However, that you should be blaming foreigners is without merit. That you should blame outsourcing companies is also questionable given what the foreign trade numbers look like. It's been done by several orders of magnitude before in domains such as manufacturing; where was your angst then?

One of my grad degrees was completely paid for by the US tax-payer. Others like me are leaving the US happily to ensure they don't languish in the immigration system. We are not God's gift to America, but we certainly boost key economic drivers such as tax income, per capita productivity, etc. That your profiling should include the bodyshopping H-1Bs with the many of us merely proves that your prejudice is merely skin-deep.

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Dec 14, 2009 11:36 AM Drifter Drifter  says: in response to Indian_H1B

You're failing to address the 1.) corruption in the system in the fashion of fake/stolen resumes, degrees, bait and switch interview tactics, nepotism etc. The practices are less than trustworthy, wouldn't you agree? 2.) the displacement of American workers. Where there is an H1B, there can very readily be an American worker, especially in this environment of record unemployment. Highly skilled and best and brightest are both tired canards these days, out of gas. The impact to home and family lives cannot be measured, but it can be ignored. If the tech profession was run by the actual people that BUILT IT, you all would be long long gone due to dishonesty and breach of contract - failure to perform. But we're left with our government that is influenced by lobbyist capital, to your advantage. Am I a racist? You bet, to some. But to the rest on my team, we call ourselves Patriots, and this is OUR country.

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Dec 14, 2009 12:32 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Indian_H1B

Thank God you admit to not being God's gift to America: too many of your countrymen have not yet gotten the memo to that effect. They actually believe that America doesn't have people who can do jobs like programmer, project manager, business analyst, nurse, doctor, and so on. Please do what you can to enlighten them, as we have grown weary of their arrogance and sense of entitlement. As of now America has millions of people out of work, and many of them are highly skilled, educated people, yet the H-1B yearly cap looks to be filling up again. That's just plain crazy, and needs to end. How childish to suggest that our desire to earn a living in our own country amounts to mere racism against yours.

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Dec 15, 2009 2:51 AM Wayne Wayne  says: in response to Mike

Mike: Racism in all its forms is inherently wrong.  When Indians display racism towards Americans, it is no more or less blameworthy than when Americans display racism towards Indians.

If you have children, I am sure that you are raising them to be respectful of others, to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," and to exhibit love and forgiveness.  We all do these things (or strive to do these things) on an individual level because we know inherently that this is the morally correct way to behave.  Similarly, I'm sure that you have close friends who are of different ethnic backgrounds, and of course you don't treat them any differently just because they happen to have been born in a different country or had foreign ancestors or have a different sounding name.

Somehow, this sense of decency and civility is easier to practice on a micro level, with those whom you are personally close to, then on a macro level, with whole nations.  Somehow, it has become okay to believe that the people of another nation are less deserving than we Americans are.

I recognize that it is challenging to see others in this light when they appear to be nothing but the faceless people who are working in "our country," but if we want to continue to maintain our position in the world as a moral authority, we must exhibit such tolerance in our daily lives.  This is not naivety.  This is pragmatism.

You are angry that Indians outlaw the hiring of white people in India.  I wasn't aware of this law, but (based on what you've said) I would say that your frustration at such blatant prejudice is valid.  But the answer is not to exercise tit-for-tat.  If we close the borders on the open exchange of talent, we are only hurting ourselves in the long run; talent will always rise to the top, and in such a connected world economy we cannot afford to practice isolationism.  Rather, the answer is to increase mutual respect and understanding, to break down the barriers of racism and prejudice, so that such wrongs committed by other nations will in turn be righted.

I feel and understand the hurt and emotion that you are experiencing; I have had several people very close to me lose their jobs in this down economy.  But when we look back on this page in history, I would like to see the America that I have loved and served live up to its promise as the land of opportunity and the country of moral value.

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Dec 15, 2009 3:49 AM Jim Jim  says: in response to Jim

One reason Don has gotten so much hostility in comments here, is that he only addressed his remarks to American citizens in 'foreigner bashing'.

Did anyone else catch that?

Anyone who's ever read any of these comments knows that there's plenty of American bashing - at least as much, full of lies and slander agaisnt the Americans who built the indestry, adn are now getting pushed out.

Yet Don ignores this and scolds only his own countrymen

Like the traitor he is

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Dec 15, 2009 5:49 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Wayne

What is most urgent, right here and now? That we get our qualified, skilled American workers back to work and their careers back on track, or that we be artificially nice to the Indian H-1Bs who really don't belong here, having come in on the false premise of some "shortage" - because that is the only circumstance under which it is supposed to be ok to bring H-1Bs in? Because those folks really do believe that there was some sort of fair evaluation of us vs. them and that we somehow deserve to lose our jobs to them.

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Dec 15, 2009 8:20 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Jim

That's very true. Ever since I first found out about the H-1B issue in 2001, they have been coming into our online discussion forums and insulting us, and crowing about getting jobs away from us and plunging us into poverty. We have been called stupid, lazy, uneducated, unskilled, lacking in family values, unclean, greedy, spoiled, unproductive, and on and on. We have had our history with Native Americans brought up by a nation that still has caste violence and discrimination. We have been told we are not a sovereign nation the way other nations are and that we have no right to set immigration policy. On one moderated Indian press comment section I actually saw us described as the "genetic vomit of Europe."

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Jan 6, 2010 1:53 AM IT monkey IT monkey  says: in response to Jim

"It's very thoughtless that people who have to train their H-1b replacements before they're fired and tossed into poverty, then face being shut out of interviews by racist Indian IT managers and fake job adds"

AMEN - half the reason I have a chance is I married an indian and have a last name that makes them think they are helping their own.  Course marrying one makes me one too.  I call it the "indian connection".

Oh and insult to injury, training the ID10T that replaced me and still can't get it right.  But hey when they pay 10% of what I made, they don't care how crappy the quality of work is.

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Jan 6, 2010 2:24 AM Blue Blue  says:

Don, your article is absurd and obviously be used to merely garner more hits to your struggling web site. I guess your strategy is to attack the unemployed and homeless during the worst economic conditions since the great depression.  I am embarrassed for you, as you are making everyone look bad. Especially yourself.

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Jan 7, 2010 5:52 AM fb56 fb56  says: in response to BRL

If we truly live in a "global economy", me and other Americans could probably get a job in Spain, Britain, Japan and so on. But news flash: it doesnt work that way since these countries(ESPECIALLY China and India) have strict anti-foreign labor laws, call it racism or not. Isn't that completely ironic?  "Global economy" is nothing but a ruse and the US worker must pay.

IBM isnt even american anymore.I think the French have it right though: Globalization kills.

Maybe one day the US government will grow some balls and stop these stupid pro-foreign programs, but that's impossible since they're bought out and paid for by the corporate moguls such as Bill Gates and Accenture. Isn't that right, Don?

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Jan 7, 2010 6:02 AM fb56 fb56  says: in response to fb56

Also, thanks to this Globalization fever, IT is on the path to become what the manufacturing industry in America is now. To those idiots who think this isnt happening, go on a fact-finding hunt, just like that Indian said, you will be surprised.

Isn't it any wonder that most American kids don't want to study math, science,engineering and tech? But at least they're smart though, since they know that those jobs in those fields are very likely to ship overseas. And then if these students have any remorse: "Well, maybe I'll just get my MBA, I don't care if I have to take out a loan, it will pay off in itself right?"

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Jan 7, 2010 10:57 AM BRL BRL  says:

The good news is that folks like Don will end up the victims of the H1B Visa. Although the irony is deep in replacing Don with an H1B, I do not wish labor arbitrage on my worst enemy, and Don's kind are very close.

The difference between us in PG and the corporate idiot legions, is that we understand that all transformational change has some recognition of brotherhood (sisterhood!), kinship or tribe.

The Machine has no Tribe.

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Oct 6, 2010 1:41 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

How is this a 'knee-jerk' reaction Don when we have HARD EVIDENCE that company after company has been destroyed by these people? The economy was booming before they got here, now it's not. They're not performing. Time to fire them.

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Oct 6, 2010 1:46 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Indian_H1B

"The reason this anti-Indian rhetoric is dangerous is because it offers a convenient explanation while stealthily hiding key economic issues."

There were no economic issues in America in 1998. Everyone had a job, nearly everyone could afford a house. Many people could pay cash for a car.

Then the Induvasion came with its millions of cheap workers driving down wages and driving Americans out of their jobs which they needed to pay their mortgage payments.

No one this exsited before this invasion - no collapse, no credit crisis, no soaring debt, no unemployment, nothing. The economy was working perfectly.

Not any more.

Economic issues? The only economic issues America has is with foreign workers and trade imbalances. Correct those and all the other issues will go away on their own.

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Oct 6, 2010 1:52 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Indian_H1B

"One of my grad degrees was completely paid for by the US tax-payer. Others like me are leaving the US happily to ensure they don't languish in the immigration system."

No, you're leaving the U.S. because you've destroyed all the jobs here and now that you've become educated by us, you want to go home and build your own country, not to 'help America'. Indians only want to come to America when the economy is booming and there is something to take. Once they destroy it, back home they go and fast! We're being taken for a ride Americans!

"We are not God's gift to America, but we certainly boost key economic drivers such as tax income"

Then why have tax receipts plunged since you got here? In 1998 most governemnts in the U.S. had a surplus, including the Federal government. Not anymore.

"per capita productivity, etc."

Based what proof? India's workers are ranked 54th in world productivity in a 2008 ILO/UN report. Americans are ranked 2nd. You people are not productive. When Silicon Valley was 98% white American males, the economy was booming. Look at it now. You people are the most UNPRODUCTIVE people in the world.

"That your profiling should include the bodyshopping H-1Bs with the many of us merely proves that your prejudice is merely skin-deep."

Or economic. You cannot escape the fact that we had the economy booming before you got here and now since you took over, it has collapsed.

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