It's Time to Point the Finger of H-1B Blame at Ourselves

Don Tennant

I've let it be known that I have come to the conclusion that the H-1B visa program is so broken that it's irreparable, and it needs to be abolished. But from what I can see, the chances of that happening anytime soon are next to zero, because the sense that we need it is too ingrained in the institutional fabric of our country. We can blame whomever we want for that: corrupt politicians, greedy corporations, shameless lobbyists. Or we can blame those who are really, ultimately at fault: ourselves.

 

Of course, not many of us want to hear that. It's so much easier to point away from ourselves, and sure, some of that is legitimate. But the fundamental reason the H-1B program will continue to exist is that our educational system is failing to produce the science and technology talent that this country needs. And the fundamental reason that's the case is that we don't have the will to do anything to change it.

 

All we seem to be able to muster the will to do is to complain about the immigrants taking our jobs. I'm right there with anybody who has a problem with the disgusting ways the visa system is abused. But I part ways with those who argue that the problems created by a broken visa system and bad immigration policies warrant an exodus from science and technology careers. We continue to discourage our children from studying science and technology, or at the very least fail to encourage our schools to focus on it. What that has caused was described in a recent Fortune article headlined "America's Science Job Conundrum." Here's an excerpt:

Despite the gloomy jobs report this month, there's some bright news for American job-seekers. U.S. Department of Commerce reported that positions in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) fields are on the rise in the United States. Job growth expectations of any kind are certainly encouraging, but will the U.S. have enough qualified workers to fill these jobs? Perhaps not, as it looks like the U.S. education system is falling behind in the very fields that show the most job growth potential. According to a report published last year by the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology, less than one-third of eighth graders in the U.S. are considered proficient in math and science. That's the population that would need to be prepared to fill the new STEM jobs that are expected. Nevertheless, the 2010 White House report on STEM education highlights some pretty dire setbacks, including systemic problems at many schools and a lack of teachers who can effectively teach STEM subjects, even at schools that are otherwise successful. The result is a student population that is not only unprepared for STEM education, but uninterested in the subjects. [B]y the Commerce Department's estimates, there will be about 1.3 million new STEM jobs to fill in the U.S. This means that STEM education will need to pick up soon so that schools can prepare middle and high school students who will enter the workforce when those jobs become available. If not, America will face an embarrassing problem -- a pocket of good, available jobs and an inability to fill them.

In a recent interview with The Globalist, meanwhile, Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, railed against the U.S. educational system and its failure to produce the technology talent we need:

In the United States, we are in the process of seeing the baby boomers - the most productive, highly skilled, educated part of our labor force - retire. They are being replaced by groups of young workers who have regrettably scored rather poorly in international educational match-ups over the last two decades. History tells us that it is those societies that have the most advanced cutting-edge technologies that have the highest standards of living. That's always been the case. If the United States is now slipping in this regard, it is basically because of our increasingly dysfunctional primary education system.

Now, here's the kicker: Asked if there's anything the U.S. government can do to counter the decline in the productivity of the younger part of the work force, this was Greenspan's response:

Yes, there are options to combat that decline, but contrary to what many people believe, we do very poorly in opening up our borders to skilled immigrants. Our H-1B visa restrictions are a disgrace. Most high-income people in our country do not realize that their incomes are being subsidized by their protection from competition from highly skilled people who are prevented from immigrating to the United States. But we need such skills in order to staff our productive economy, so that the standard of living for Americans as a whole can grow.

We need to come to grips with the fact that this is the mindset of policymakers who see our competitive edge and our standard of living slipping because we don't have a pipeline of homegrown technology talent to keep us productive. No, Greenspan didn't mention the lower standard of living of U.S. technology workers who have been laid off after being compelled to train people here on H-1B visas to take their jobs. Nor did he mention those workers who can't find jobs because openings are advertised exclusively to H-1B visa holders. It's OK to be outraged by that, because it's outrageous. What's not OK is to allow all of that to inoculate the generation now in school from a desire to pursue a STEM career. Those of us who dissuade our kids from going into technology, or who don't see the failure of our schools to effectively teach the STEM disciplines as a problem, are among the culprits shutting off the pipeline. Anyone who's complicit in that is in no position to point the finger of blame for the H-1B problem at anyone else.



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Jul 18, 2011 1:02 AM Su Su  says: in response to R. Lawson

You will feel in the tone below that he is not hiding from problems and blaming others for everything.This is a nice tone which encourages people to compete and not just hiding face from the problem and blame others.

Transcript:Obama's State of the Union speech

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Many people watching tonight can probably remember a time when finding a good job meant showing up at a nearby factory or a business downtown.You didn't always need a degree, and your competition was pretty much limited to your neighbors.If you worked hard, chances are you'd have a job for life, with a decent paycheck, and good benefits, and the occasional promotion.Maybe you'd even have the pride of seeing your kids work at the same company.

That world has changed.And for many, the change has been painful.I've seen it in the shuttered windows of once booming factories and the vacant storefronts on once busy Main Streets.I've heard it in the frustrations of Americans who've seen their paychecks dwindle or their jobs disappear, proud men and women who feel like the rules have been changed in the middle of the game.

They're right:The rules have changed.In a single generation, revolutions in technology have transformed the way we live, work, and do business.Steel mills that once needed 1,000 workers can now do the same work with 100.Today, just about any company can set up shop, hire workers, and sell their products wherever there's an Internet connection.

Meanwhile, nations like China and India realized that with some changes of their own they could compete in this new world.And so they started educating their children earlier and longer, with greater emphasis on math and science.They're investing in research and new technologies.Just recently, China became the home to the world's largest private solar research facility and the world's fastest computer.

So, yes, the world has changed.The competition for jobs is real.But this shouldn't discourage us.It should challenge us.

Remember:For all the hits we've taken these last few years, for all the naysayers predicting our decline, America still has the largest, most prosperous economy in the world.

(APPLAUSE)

No workers -- no workers are more productive than ours.No country has more successful companies or grants more patents to inventors and entrepreneurs.We're the home to the world's best colleges and universities, where more students come to study than any place on Earth.

What's more, we are the first nation to be founded for the sake of an idea, the idea that each of us deserves the chance to shape our own destiny.That's why centuries of pioneers and immigrants have risked everything to come here.It's why our students don't just memorize equations, but answer questions like, "What do you think of that idea?What would you change about the world?What do you want to be when you grow up?"

The future is ours to win.But to get there, we can't just stand still.As Robert Kennedy told us, "The future is not a gift.It is an achievement."

Sustaining the American dream has never been about standing pat.It has required each generation to sacrifice, and struggle, and meet the demands of a new age.

And now it's our turn.We know what it takes to compete for the jobs and industries of our time.We need to out-innovate, out- educate, and out-build the rest of the world.

(APPLAUSE)

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Maintaining our leadership in research and technology is crucial to America's success. Reply

Jul 18, 2011 1:02 AM Su Su  says: in response to R. Lawson
But if we want to win the future, if we want innovation to produce jobs in America and not overseas, then we also have to win the race to educate our kids.

Think about it.Over the next 10 years, nearly half of all new jobs will require education that goes beyond a high school education.And yet, as many as a quarter of our students aren't even finishing high school.

The quality of our math and science education lags behind many other nations.America has fallen to ninth in the proportion of young people with a college degree.

And so the question is whether all of us -- as citizens and as parents -- are willing to do what's necessary to give every child a chance to succeed.

That responsibility begins not in our classrooms, but in our homes and communities.It's family that first instills the love of learning in a child.Only parents can make sure the TV is turned off and homework gets done.We need to teach our kids that it's not just the winner of the Super Bowl who deserves to be celebrated, but the winner of the science fair.

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Jul 18, 2011 1:25 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Su

My three sons all have STEM degrees and two are in grad school now. I sure hope somebody doesn't triage their resumes out of the pile because they're Americans and were born in the 80s.

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Jul 18, 2011 1:28 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to James Murphy

I don't take him seriously. But it doesn't matter that I don't take him seriously. What matters is that the views he expressed are ingrained in our country's institutional fabric. I just cited him to make the point. My argument is that won't change until we demonstrate the will to beat our educational system into shape, give the STEM disciplines the attention they warrant, and stop dissuading our kids from pursuing careers in technology. That's not a religious conviction. That's my assessment of the situation we face.

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Jul 18, 2011 1:49 AM Su Su  says: in response to Dolores

Yes.

I don't feel there is any threat for deserving candidates. Even job situation is not that bad as the only problem is millions of immigrants. No company just fires deserving valuable employees just to get cheap immigrants and rightly there should be many checks to stop just inflow of "cheapness only".

I think problem is, most of the readers of this blogs are established and deserving individuals in their respective fields, but they think everyone is like them and think whatever is going on bad is because of outsiders and nothing is wrong with America. Your sons may not be one of those who creates pile of unemployment.

Now the real question is whether America should keep on protecting 'everyone' or do they promote competition? I don't get a feel out of Obama's lecture above that there is any plans as of yet for the first case.

Just like cast system in India created lots of problems and then now the protection for the lower cast in every position creates further problem - US wouldn't want that. Such protection creates huge problem in any system.

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Jul 18, 2011 1:52 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Su

I agree with the tone of the speech, however I think it over-simplifies the problem.  Of course we need students to excel in academia, early on, and make college the "norm".  Be it a 4-year degree or a two-year vocational school we need to step it up.  High-school just isn't enough. 

We all agree that our society needs a better education, and our country has decided that a primary education is a right.  I think we should redefine what a primary/secondary education is - and include two years of college.  In short, extend tax-payer funded education to the "14th" grade leading to either a vocational degree or the completion of college fundamentals normally done during the freshman and sophomore years (granting an associates degree).

If it is truly in our national interest to make 2 years of college the minimum, we should fund it.

However, this still doesn't solve other key problems.  We have serious economic issues to deal with.  Trade deficits and an economy driven by consumerism (and personal debt) is not sustainable.  We can improve education but we also need to change course in how we grow and/or sustain our economy.

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Jul 18, 2011 2:09 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Su

Su said, "No company just fires deserving valuable employees just to get cheap immigrants and rightly there should be many checks to stop just inflow of "cheapness only"." But that is exactly what has happened to tens of thousands of productive employees in profitable companies across America over the last decade. They were tapped on the shoulder, and introduced to a foreign replacement they were expected to train. There is currently no law against this in America. In Europe and the UK there is some legal protection: they TUPE laws (transfer of undertaking, protection of employement). But here, the boss holds all the cards.

There are so many ways around the few regulations as to what foreign workers are to be paid, that the miracle is that any are paid well at all (and a few are, mostly those hired directly by American companies, but those are in the minority).

How do we tell whether an individual American worker is "worthy" or not? Depends on who you ask. And when.

American workers are already being shut out of consideration for a large number of jobs located in this country. You can see them posted on foreign job sites. Why weren't they posted here?

I recently saw a Wipro ad for Windows desktop support in Tuscon. Why wasn't that job posted here for locals to apply? If it had been, over 200 qualified local candidates would have shown up. Ditto for the Windows system admin job Wipro also posted for Tuscon. Why was Wipro given these job openings to try and fill in India when we have so many folks who can do this work here?

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Jul 18, 2011 2:10 AM GetReal GetReal  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don,

Encouraging our bright scientifically minded children to persue a STEM "career" in the current environment is tantamount to encouraging jewish family members to stick it out in 1930's Germany in the hopes they can change things or things will change on their own.  We are a persecuted minority in the US today.  When folks like Greenspan point out that we are over paid this is a shot across our bow that we can't ignore.  The key to get our homegrown best and brightest into STEM careers is to show them how valuable their contributions will become, but this mentality sends the opposite message.

Stop blaming our education system and look at the facts.  I saw one of the posters has provided links to reputable sources which show that we are in fact producing enough STEM graduates.  The problem for those in power is that  we aren't cheap enough for their liking.  There is no shortage.

Smart kids with smart parents will be encouraged to get a law degree, MD or apply their advanced math skills to Wall Street.  The only way I would accept my kids going for an engineering degree is if they had the intention of being entrepreneurial.

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Jul 18, 2011 4:54 AM James Murphy James Murphy  says: in response to Don Tennant

When Galileo first trained his telescope on the heavens and reported seeing what Aristotle said he should not see he was doubted.  He invited the doubters to look for themselves.  They looked and saw what they wanted to see and continued to doubt. 

Several of us have presented objections to your thesis that " the fundamental reason the H-1B program will continue to exist is that our educational system is failing to produce the science and technology talent that this country needs."  Would you lay out in detail why you continue to believe that and what you find lacking in the arguments several have presented?

Let me say that I have a graduate degree in engineering and I would discourage any young person from a STEM degree. 

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Jul 18, 2011 7:24 AM BT1024 BT1024  says: in response to James Murphy

n6532l , EngiNERD, Don  -

Here's an Article/discussion, that I "stumbled" upon a while back, that was posted on the Scientific American website. You may find it of interest (I didn't read the whole article and comments yet)....

"Does the U.S. Produce Too Many Scientists?"

By Beryl Lieff Benderly, on February 22, 2010

www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m

(yes, the link is OK, even though it appears to be truncated)

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Jul 18, 2011 7:32 AM Sad Sad  says: in response to BT1024

yeah I think we should start learning Maths and compete with Indians and Chinese. See this link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBv2CFTSWU&;feature=player_embedded#at=43

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Jul 18, 2011 8:34 AM BT1024 BT1024  says: in response to Su

For "Su" and others:

When was that State Of the Union speech given ? - The part about China becoming home to the World's fastest computer is wrong, as of 6/20/2011 - SEE The "Japanese Computer Named World's Fastest" Article Below...

"Japanese Computer Named World's Fastest"

www.innovationnewsdaily.com/japan-worlds-fastest-computer-nasa-rikken-petaflop-2066/

The above article notes the following as well, "Despite this win, the U.S. still dominates the list, with Oak Ridge National Lab's Jaguar rig taking the number three post, and NASA's Pleiades supercomputer landing the number seven spot."

**ALSO, read this article "U.S. to Overtake China with World's Fastest Computer" (By InnovationNewsDaily Staff - 23 March 2011 1:04 PM ET):

www.technewsdaily.com/computing-titan-us-to-reclaim-fastest-supercomputer-title-2391/

From the article > "U.S. national lab plans to unveil a "Titan" supercomputer in 2012 that would dwarf the computing speeds of the latest record holder from China, as well as all previous competitors." - SO, The U.S. supercomputer will actually out perform the latest Japanese computer by approximately 12 petaflops..

- But, Obama fails to mention the U.S. domination of the supercomputer list and the upcoming "Titan" U.S. supercomputer...

SO, WHAT's MY POINT ? - Well, here's the common problem (in the U.S.) with our elected officials, the media, and the corporate leaders - THEY ALWAYS SEEM TO OVERLOOK the PAST, PRESENT and Upcoming ACHIEVEMENTS of our country and our citizens... They, seem to be pushing stories about folks from india and china, instead of "cheering" for our own citizens and their accomplishments...

Just like all of the articles about the INTEL Science fair, which failed to mention the U.S. citizens that won the events - See my Comments about the American Intel Science Fair winners (5 Americans), in one of Don's other blog postings - HERE's the LINK to my comments (which has sources for the data)>>

www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/tennant/i-was-wrong-the-h-1b-visa-program-must-be-abolished/?cs=47286#comment-48045

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Jul 18, 2011 11:38 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

"But the fundamental reason the H-1B program will continue to exist is that our educational system is failing to produce the science and technology talent that this country needs. And the fundamental reason that's the case is that we don't have the will to do anything to change it."

I disagree strongly with that viewpoint.  Our educational system is perfectly capable of producing STEM graduates and in fact produces so many that most STEM graduates don't find STEM jobs and instead pursue other occupations.  This is a red-herring argument.

The problem isn't in academia.  No, the problem is firmly in the market place. 

For a profession with a "shortage" we have seen salaries erode or remain stagnant over the last decade.  That just doesn't happen when there is a shortage unless there is some external force interfering with the market.

In our case we have companies import and exploit lower paid workers.  It's a labor subsidy.  If there was or is a shortage of American STEM workers, we are letting off the steam through guest worker programs.  We shouldn't be doing that because WE NEED THE MARKET TO FIX ITSELF.

Entering a profession is a decision based on several factors - including potential earnings.  It's a business decision made on an individual basis.  Individuals are finding other opportunities in the market place where they have more viable prospects.

The bottom line is that we live in a free market.  This market discourages people from entering STEM related professions.  If there is truly a shortage and no subsidies letting off that pressure salaries will rise and people in this free market will pursue STEM degrees.  It's not rocket science - just economics 101.

Seriously Don, what could academia possibly do to correct the situation?  They could make more seats available to STEM related degree programs but without a market incentive those seats would remain empty. 

"It's the market, stupid".  That could become my new slogan - an old one with a slight twist.

You also talk about school systems, under-performance of students in math and science, and the lack of qualified workers.  Once again, school systems are dead-set on paying teachers barely enough to live outside of the poverty range.  Why on earth would you expect highly qualified people to become teachers if it meant a life of poverty? 

We even flood academia with subsidized labor - just look at this article where Maryland imported 800 workers: http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/07/08/11/us-labor-dept-bans-hiring-pinoy-teachers-maryland-county.  Of course they violated scores of labor and immigration laws in the process and are now banned from the program - but they weren't looking for "good" teachers.  No, they were looking for "cheap" teachers.  And they let off some of that "free market steam" driving salaries even lower.

The problem is that everyone is trying to game the free market and looking for easy solutions to complex problems.  You just can't do that and expect desired outcomes.  Subsidies only make the problem worse and create a dependency on those subsidies. 

So if the H-1b or other corporate sponsored programs or temporary labor programs continue, the "free market steam" will always be let out and the market incentive to solve the problem won't exist.  Let the market work and slap the hands of those who wish to manipulate it.

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Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

"But the fundamental reason the H-1B program will continue to exist is that our educational system is failing to produce the science and technology talent that this country needs.And the fundamental reason that's the case is that we don't have the will to do anything to change it."

I disagree strongly with that viewpoint. Our educational system is perfectly capable of producing STEM graduates and in fact produces so many that most STEM graduates don't find STEM jobs and instead pursue other occupations. This is a red-herring argument.

The problem isn't in academia. No, the problem is firmly in the market place. 

For a profession with a "shortage" we have seen salaries erode or remain stagnant over the last decade. That just doesn't happen when there is a shortage unless there is some external force interfering with the market.

In our case we have companies import and exploit lower paid workers. It's a labor subsidy. If there was or is a shortage of American STEM workers, we are letting off the steam through guest worker programs. We shouldn't be doing that because WE NEED THE MARKET TO FIX ITSELF.

Entering a profession is a decision based on several factors - including potential earnings. It's a business decision made on an individual basis. Individuals are finding other opportunities in the market place where they have more viable prospects.

The bottom line is that we live in a free market. This market discourages people from entering STEM related professions. If there is truly a shortage and no subsidies letting off that pressure salaries will rise and people in this free market will pursue STEM degrees. It's not rocket science - just economics 101.

Seriously Don, what could academia possibly do to correct the situation? They could make more seats available to STEM related degree programs but without a market incentive those seats would remain empty. 

"It's the market, stupid". That could become my new slogan - an old one with a slight twist.

You also talk about school systems, under-performance of students in math and science, and the lack of qualified workers. Once again, school systems are dead-set on paying teachers barely enough to live outside of the poverty range. Why on earth would you expect highly qualified people to become teachers if it meant a life of poverty? 

We even flood academia with subsidized labor - just look at this article where Maryland imported 800 workers:www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/07/08/11/us-labor-dept-bans-hiring-pinoy-teachers-maryland-county. ;Of course they violated scores of labor and immigration laws in the process and are now banned from the program - but they weren't looking for "good" teachers. No, they were looking for "cheap" teachers. And they let off some of that "free market steam" driving salaries even lower.

The problem is that everyone is trying to game the free market and looking for easy solutions to complex problems. You just can't do that and expect desired outcomes. Subsidies only make the problem worse and create a dependency on those subsidies. 

So if the H-1b or other corporate sponsored programs or temporary labor programs continue, the "free market steam" will always be let out and the market incentive to solve the problem won't exist.  Reply

Jul 18, 2011 11:39 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:
Let the market work and slap the hands of those who wish to manipulate it.

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Jul 18, 2011 11:40 AM SVEngineer SVEngineer  says:

Don reminds me of a career politician.    He said that he is now against the H-1B program, but he acts otherwise.   

Anyway, the U.S. already produces more domestic engineers and scientists per year than the market can absorb.    To allow the H-1B people to come in is irresponsible at best and traitorous at worse.   

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Jul 18, 2011 11:41 AM Dolores Dolores  says:

Why are we giving any credence to Alan Greenspan on this topic? Why?

He is promulgating a gross generalization, and urging people to evaluate job candidates on a combination of their nationality and their age - last time I checked, that sort of thing was called "discrimination." How about we evaluate job candidates on their individual merits? Oooh, but that would be hard, it would take work, and a generous dollop of decency and wisdom on top like a cherry.

I just spent the last decade working in IT at a major US research university. I also volunteered there as a commencement marshall. The notion that we don't have a robust pipeline of native citizen talent gushing out of our schools is absolute nonsense. I'm worried that part of the problem these young American graduates will have finding work will come from the defamatory sentiments propagated by famous "experts" like Greenspan who seem to have no problem getting coverage for their most outrageous and uninformed pronouncements.

Defamation, as you may recall me explaining, goes beyond badmouthing someone. It's the sort of insults that make it hard for that person to earn a living, go about their lives, and hold their heads up in their own communities. Someone's been doing that to American workers for over a decade now, and it needs to stop.

Perhaps this is what's behind the proliferation of "purple squirrel" job openings we've been seeing. To rule out honest American candidates? Some of us have seen the other side simply edit their resumes, and then voila, they're in. What's hard to believe about this? We now know for certain that they don't hesitate to falsify other documentation (see: Infosys).

The notion of triaging job candidates by nationality and age has no place in America.

Don't forget what Greenspan said back before he was talking smack about the younger generation. In 2007 his gripe was that tech workers were making too much, and he advocated letting guestworkers in, not because of any deficiency with the native workforce, but simply to lower native technical workers' incomes. "Allowing more skilled workers into the country would bring down the salaries of top earners in the United States, easing tensions over the mounting wage gap, Greenspan said.

"Our skilled wages are higher than anywhere in the world," he said. "If we open up a significant window for skilled workers, that would suppress the skilled-wage level and end the concentration of income."" (www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/03/14/greenspan_let_more_skilled_immigrants_in/)

So, from his own mouth, this is really just about cheaper labor. And we know that the proponents of cheaper skilled labor, whether they are salivating bodyshoppers, corporate heads in search of bigger bonuses, or hopeful third world workers who want an American job really, really bad, will say (and sometimes do) whatever, in pursuit of their goals.

The notion that any nation should just replace its native workforce with a foreign workforce is so crazy, I'm surprised that anybody is taking Greenspan seriously.

Time to point the finger of blame at ourselves? Not just yet.

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Jul 18, 2011 11:43 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

"In a recent interview with The Globalist, meanwhile, Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve, railed against the U.S. educational system and its failure to produce the technology talent we need:"

And Alan Greenspan also supported manipulating the market.  He was honest about the situation; he said he supported the H-1b program BECAUSE it drove down salaries.  That was a desired outcome for Greenspan. 

So if you want to find someone who you can assign substantial blame to, there is obviously Alan Greenspan.  He's "free market" when it suits him.  He is more than willing to interfere with the free market when it suits corporate interests.

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Jul 18, 2011 11:56 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

The irony is that most of people used by lobbying firms that lobby for the outsourcers are lawyers. A profession protected by guilds, bar exams, and other gating mechanisms to control the entry into the profession. I wonder how they would feel once those restrictions are removed.

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Jul 18, 2011 12:01 PM EngiNERD EngiNERD  says:

Tennant  writes:

"The result is a student population that is not only unprepared for STEM education, but uninterested in the subjects. "

Who  says  students are NOT  interested ?

Here's  might take.....  The news  media is  not  covering the  dozens,  Dozens of the STEM  outreach  programs!

I think  many  might be surprised  by  the many S.T.E.M  programs there are.     I've attended  several programs  and the interesting aspect is the lack of  media   coverage !  the celebration  of these    STEM  students

Now  if these students had  been  throwing,  kicking , tossing, hitting   some sort   ball in an athletic competition it would be a sure bet the media would be reporting!

here's  but of a few   (STEM) events!

S.T.E.M.    pictures:

www.flickr.com/photos/41494787@N03/

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626018755926/

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626113003857/

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626156052557/

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626401389143/?page=2

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626401389143/?page=3

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626091452215/

www.flickr.com/photos/10752828@N05/sets/72157626819858774/

How  many   of you  are aware  of:      www.futurecity.org

www.usfirst.org, 

www.acementor.org

bridgecontest.phys.iit.edu/

www.rubegoldberg.com/

www.constructionchallenge.org/

www.idodi.org/

soinc.org/

and   many  many  many more !

Where's the news  of these exceptional  students????

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Jul 18, 2011 12:06 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

I find it interesting that the "shortage" of US tech grads started happening as soon as the H1-B program started becoming popular in the tech industry. It seems way too convenient that once an easy pipeline for outsourcing was established that a local shortage happened.

I don't think for a minute buy that industry floated "study". It is similar to why the plastics industry lobbied so hard to keep BPA in utensils in the US when it has been banned in Europe and elsewhere. It was a cheap additive. Now they quietly admit that it is potentially dangerous.

Now that our corporate crowd is addicted to cheap labor, I am sure they will fight tooth and nail to keep the H1-B alive.

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Jul 18, 2011 12:28 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

Don: ". . . I part ways with those who argue that the problems created by a broken visa system and bad immigration policies warrant an exodus from science and technology careers. We continue to discourage our children from studying science and technology, or at the very least fail to encourage our schools to focus on it."

Parents have some influence, but the greatest influence for kids to focus on advanced math in high school and the pursuit of a STEM degree have  more to do with their peers and the perception of the career as an interesting and rewarding profession.

If you really want to attract more boys to STEM degrees, attract more girls and make it "cool" again.  The period in which young men make these career decisions also seems to be around the same time their testosterone count is dangerously high - so I'm not above using that to our advantage.  That solves two birds - one being our discrimination against women in STEM degrees and the other being a lack of interest by boys who are more interested in girls.  Now how do we make women interested in STEM degrees and math?  I'll let the other gender answer that one. 

How many kids want to be athletes, police, or firemen?  And how many say they want to develop line of business applications?   I don't draw a big crowd on career day at the kid's school.  The cops, doctors, and firemen steal my thunder   If only I developed video games. . .

The movie "War Games" got me interested.  I was already into BBS systems when that movie came out, but it really made programming "cool" and gave it a bit of a rebel edge.  When I was ready to enter the workforce, I already knew more about computers than most adults at the time. 

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Jul 18, 2011 12:29 PM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says:

Workers do best when there are complimentary relationships, not competitive relationships. Competition between workers is unemployment, competition between company drives employment.

Oracle, bought all of its competition and has been busy laying off workers right and left, while at the same time reaping massive profits. There is no logical relationship, what-so-ever, between profits and hiring in tech industry. The only thing that drives hiring is competition to enhance their product features, that fear, is what makes companies want to hire engineers.

So Don, I can't agree with the notion that encouraging people to enter a career, after 6 years of very expensive U.S.university education, to have a career lifetime of maybe 15 years, and making at best 60k a year is the way to go. No, be a lawyer or a doctor, with a 40 year career, make 200-300k a year, that's the way to go.

Oh, and add to that competition with guys like me, I have been coding without even a high school diploma (I recently checked this out, it is a fact that my high school did not graduate me), I left early so I could study programming at a community college. I know for fact that my job can be learned in about 6 months, the only thing I have in my corner is a philosophy of being a cooperative passionate worker that's it (literally). 

And with that I create a lot of product functionality. Check out the fun app, I create for free:

sites.google.com/site/musicalapplets/

So this is the reality of the programming (arts and sciences). 

We need our Visa system to be complimentary to the U.S.workforce. The reason is simple, 14 trillion in debt makes it so. We are on the verge of default, and the only thing that services that debt are working people. And people making 80-120k pay a lot more taxes than people make 20-50k. That is why we need the so called "expensive engineers" (often so described by lawyers making in excess of 200k).  

In fact, I would argue that cheap engineers are actually the problem. I am not a cheap engineer, and I can afford extra computers with which I create a lot of (free) programs in my spare time. So take that Greenspan, if I were making 50k do you think I could afford a laptop (no-way).  And without that the software synths on my musical applet page could not have been created. And I've got a dozen more programs, software and multimedia that I create in my spare time. If I can do all that in my sparetime (8-10 hours a week) imagine what a deal my company gets in my work time (40-60 hours a week).

Companies are scared of this, that is why they want the slave 1B visa. That is why they want wages low. That is why they want to inflate the job requirements. They are scared of the massive competition that resides in engineers such as myself, and they want to make me dependent on them for the equipment needed to utilize my talent.

And that is exactly what will happen when you drop the wages of U.S.engineers to that of the third world.

And worse, not only will it destroy my ability to earn living wage. It will result in an inability to pay taxes. That will in turn lead to a non-political default on national and local public debt, and will create a condition where millions of americans will be paying huge dollars for commodities like oil and raw materials.

The reform of our visa programs has to be such that companies are forced to compete for workers, that is the only thing that can save our economy.

If Greenspan can't see that, then he just isn't even looking, and you shouldn' trust him.

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Jul 18, 2011 12:49 PM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says:

The problem with the posters (the same old bunch) and Don's new angle is that H-1B is considered a homogeneous concept. Each H-1B works in IT and draws 30% below the market-wage.

60% of H-1Bs have graduate degrees or higher. I am willing to bet that of the 40% that do not, you will find a large number of IT workers working for an Indian outsourcer.

If your wish were to hypothetically play out, you would end up eliminating the first set above with the second set that bothers you the most.

The fact that 60% of the PhDs in STEM go to non-Americans and that the H-1B is often the easiest way for them to start working in the US would mean that the US stands to introduce a wedge to discourage future waves of these foreign students from coming in to earn PhDs, publish research and spark innovation.

A lot of these PhDs don't hang around in the US upon graduation for economic reasons. They pay a fairly high price to stay away from their families and roots to ensure that they can use their PhDs to work on relevant jobs. The US stands to make it conducive for them to live here, go to love the country and immigrate.

It's not just PhDs. I have a friend who did have a PhD, but also went on to get an MBA because he wanted to innovate. Even though he was a US permanent resident, he opted to return to India to begin a now successful start-up. His primary reason for not starting off here in the US was that he needed access to a steady pool of technical talent and could not find a cost-effective labor force in the US to do it (no angel investor would care to listen to his pitch if he spoke of paying high salaries).

Sure enough, he now employs 15 employees, all of whom make 2-3 times what they did when they started working for him, not to mention a lot of equity which would be golden should his company be acquired or go public. The US gains to retain those H-1Bs that have MBAs and will be tomorrow's job creators.

I will conclude by agreeing that the H-1B is absolutely flawed. Yes, there is abuse and yes, there are workers sneaking in from elsewhere  that do not add value to justify their replacement of an American worker. But, you cannot be naive in assuming that all H-1Bs fall into this seedy categorization. It is merely your prejudice that comes through.

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Jul 18, 2011 12:56 PM James Murphy James Murphy  says:

"But the fundamental reason the H-1B program will continue to exist is that our educational system is failing to produce the science and technology talent that this country needs."

Don,

Your belief in the concept that there is a shortage of STEM talent in this country seems to be impervious to rebuttal, more religious conviction than a rational view of the facts, but I will try.

Various studies listed above cast doubt on your conclusion to which I would add the following:

Dr. Norm Matloff's recent survey at

heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/2011TechJobMarket.txt

"Do we Need More Scientist" by Michael S. Teitelbaum at

www.thepublicinterest.com/archives/2003fall/article2.html

Teitelbaum has a history of shortage forecasts that is most interesting.

You make two errors with respect to the alleged need for foreign talent. First you assert without solid evidence that there are jobs for which there are no available domestic talent.  That is well refuted by the above.

The second error you make is looking at averages.  One of the big changes in education in recent years is a push to prevent dropouts.  That is today we encourage non-performing students to stay in school whereas years ago they would have dropped out.  That causes the averages to decline.   We are producing more competent high school graduates today than yesterday even though average scores are declining.  This can not logically be used to say there is a shortage. 

This is well documented here:

"Our Schools vs. Theirs: Averages That Hide The True Extremes" by David Berliner at

nepc.colorado.edu/files/cerai-01-02.htm

Also I invite you to look at the salary data.  If we in fact "failing to produce the science and technology talent that this country needs" then those few who did have that talent would be seeing their wages bid up.  We do not see that happening except for some isolated cases of new projects needing talent fast.

Finally I point out that Alan Greenspan did not protect this economy.  Most of our problems have roots in his policies.  I refer you to

"Greenspan's Fraud: How Two Decades of His Policies Have Undermined the Global Economy" by Ravi Batra

This is not a man you should be taking seriously.

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Jul 19, 2011 1:57 AM Bob K Bob K  says: in response to A. Christian

The ethnic/racial remarks on either side, or ad hominem attacks are a side show from the real issue.  Americans of all races, who are all negatively affected by certain policies instead squabble with each other over the nonsense. Meanwhile the lobbyists, executives, politicians and Wall Street laugh all the way to the bank.

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Jul 19, 2011 2:31 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Bob K

Here we go again.

I just knew that at some point Don would be at it again.

Now it is "Americans are just too stupid"

Sorry

Don the young Americans are bright because they see STEM is an awful career with extremely grim job prospects.

And you can take it to the bank that I advise young Americans NOT to pursue STEM as a career while encouraging everyone to acquire math and science skills for their own sake without hope of financial renumeration.

To encourage young Americans to acquire $50K in student loans for a STEM degree without realistic hope of employment is just absurd.

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Jul 19, 2011 2:36 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Jackman

Don's religious beliefs, mine, and your lack of them, have nothing to do with this conversation. 

Frankly, a lot of people died to defend our religious freedom and when someone like you writes such a sick comment, you are asking for a lot of trouble.

So take your Nazi trash somewhere else.

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Jul 19, 2011 2:45 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to jake_leone

I'm not sure how the Jewish thing got started, but if anybody cares, I'm not Jewish. I'm a Baha'i. In any case, I'll second the suggestion that the hate be taken somewhere else.

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Jul 19, 2011 3:04 AM Jennifer Dorning Jennifer Dorning  says:

The U.S. is clearly graduating enough U.S. citizens and permanent residents in science and engineering fields to meet current and future demand.  In 2008, 95,247 U.S. citizens and permanent residents received a bachelor's, master's, or Ph.D. in engineering.   According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), in 2008, there were 1,571,900 engineers employed in the U.S.  By 2018, the BLS projects that there will be an additional 178,300 engineers in the U.S. workforce.  In 2008, 178,998 U.S. citizens and permanent residents received a bachelor's, master's, or Ph.D. in hard sciences.

Unemployment rates should also be taken into account when determining visa allocation, because they are clearly relevant to issues of labor supply.  In April 2011, architecture and engineering occupations had an unemployment rate of 4.1 percent.   This was down from a high of 6.9 percent in 2009.   The average unemployment rate in these occupations between 2004 and 2008 was 2.26 percent.  

For more information about these issues, see the Department for Professional Employees, AFL-CIO website, www.dpeaflcio.org and two of its reports on the H-1B visa system: Guest Worker Visas: The H-1B and L-1 and Gaming the System: Guest Worker Visa Programs and Professional and Technical Workers in the U.S. (www.dpeaflcio.org/programs-publications/issue-fact-sheets/).

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Jul 19, 2011 3:40 AM Discrimination by National Origin Discrimination by National Origin  says: in response to Jackman

I object to Jackman's inappropriate and abusive comments. They add no value, and there is no need for this person's attempt to ignite anger.

In the USA, discrimination based on race, religion disability, nationality, sex are outlawed.  A person's personal choices are their business, not mine. As long as they don't harm someone, a person's race, religion, age, or if they prefer paper or plastic don't matter.

The only thing that matters to me is making sure the truth is told.

It is inappropriate and unfair to blame the victims of corporate visa abuse for the H-1b problem. The greedy billionaires who who created it, the offshore/outsourcing companies who benefit,  the convicted felon lobbyists who sold it to Congress, the media who chose to focus on Charlie Sheehan instead of millions of jobless Americans,  and the corrupt politicians who sold out we the people, passing laws that legalize discrimination based on national origin are the culprits.

NOT the victims, NOT our education system. 

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Jul 19, 2011 4:37 AM US-PHD-Wasted US-PHD-Wasted  says:

"If STEM jobs paid good salaries and were not being flooded by cheap labor from abroad then the US citizens would flood to science fields.

But the bleak reality is Technology Unemployment in Health Sciences is Astronomical. The real STEM crisis is

89,000- PhDs are now in temporary employment postdoctoral positions with no health benefits, etc, according to the National Postdoctoral Association (many of theses are H1Bs receiving PhDs in foreign countries, but need jobs here). This is just a guestimate, probably a low estimate, because our universities want to keep importing cheap labor.

27,000- PhDs- the number of Science and Engineering postdocs (Physics and Engineering) with temporary visas at US universities, as given by the National Science Foundation, tripling from 1985 to 2005.

Despite the STEM jobs realities President Obama pursues more H1bs more J1s the while harping about the failure to produce US scientists.

Q. What is the difference between the job policies of the last two presidents, President GW Bush and President Obama?

A. In reality, nothing...."

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Jul 19, 2011 9:26 AM Su Su  says: in response to BT1024

You missed the point in that speech. It was not even trying to say China is better just because of some supercomputer. It was just an example to show other countries are competing hard and gone are the days when life in US was easy.

You also missed the part?

"

Remember: For all the hits we've taken these last few years, for all the naysayers predicting our decline, America still has the largest, most prosperous economy in the world.

".

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Jul 19, 2011 9:39 AM walterbyrd walterbyrd  says:

If the problem were in academia, then why are students in other countries breaking their necks to get into US universities? Why are US universities easily the best in the world? Why do the so-called "best and brightest" always come from the world's poorest nations (nations which have never been known for IT innovation or any kind of scientific innovation)? Are we supposed to believe there are no smart people in Germany, or the UK, or whatever? We are supposed to believe that all world's great computer geniuses come from India? India!? Seriously? When did that happen? Why is it that practically all major computer-related inventions come from the US or Europe, if all the computer genius are from India? Why isn't the O-1 enough for the H1B hogs?

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Jul 19, 2011 9:55 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to walterbyrd

The O-1 makes you jump through even more bureaucratic hoops than does the H-1B. A classmate of mine from India got his PhD in a top program and was stuck in India for several months because of some checks they had to perform to validate his O-1. His job offer in the US evaporated even though he managed to get his O-1 -- A Pyrrhic victory.

You have some clerks in USCIS evaluating if someone is worthy of an O-1. It's not panel of scientists and geniuses who make the call. Do you expect them to know a neuro-scientist from a neutrino?

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Jul 19, 2011 10:18 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to walterbyrd

I don't know that anyone is arguing that the problem lies in the U.S. university system. The argument is that the problem lies in the U.S. school system that prepares (or fails to prepare) students for the U.S. university system, and that we're discouraging our own kids from taking advantage of STEM programs in the U.S. university system the way students from other countries are breaking their necks to do.

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Jul 19, 2011 10:20 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says:

From what I can see computer science is one of those fields that you can learn either on-the-job, in school, or through self teaching.

What our visa system has done is to inflate the entry-level requirements (for average americans, not foreign workers, who frankly might well have fake degrees).  A masters degree is typically required for all entry-level positions.  From my experience, I know this has really gotten out of hand.  Here I am, not even a high-school diploma, making 6+ figs, well too bad chumps.

The mathematical side, does require education.  Does it require an advanced degree, maybe not.  In my work I primarily use Statistics and Algebra, that's it.  And both subjects are taught at the high school level.

I studied calculus and differential equations, but I never use it.  I am sure if my company needed help in this area, they would hire a contractor.  Some chump who thinks education is a career.

Yes there are advanced topic, Object Oriented Design, they are just ways to simplify programming tasks.  And while there are many design patterns, typically we use just a subset of these for projects.  I just read a few books and practiced my art, simple as that.

The outsourcing companies know this too.  They know that in a few month on the job training, a guy with a bachelors can learn every task in a department.  One CEO, of an outsourcing company, did say that they prefer not to hire people with advanced degrees as they are more likely to leave.

So Don, we need to stop the Outsourcing companies from using Visas period.  We must not give away our jobs.  We need to fix that gaping hole.

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Jul 19, 2011 10:55 AM BT1024 BT1024  says: in response to Su

I didn't miss the point of the speech... I've heard it and similar themes, several times before in other speeches and articles....

I just picked the part about China's supercomputer, as well as using the reference to the Intel Science Fair (media reports), to make my own point.

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Jul 19, 2011 11:10 AM Bob K Bob K  says:

Sorry, Don, I don't take ownership for this. I routinely vote against politicians who support guest worker visa programs. On the other hand if by "we" you mean policy makers like Greenspan and their sympathetic and braindead politicians, then I agree. Greenspan and company encouraged policies that flooded the market with foreign tech workers, with the sole intention of depressing wages and discouraging Americans to go into the sciences. As you may recognize, this guy has a rather perverse view of income eqaulity: i.e. his way of achieving it is to make EVERYONE poor, with the exception of a few hundred billionaires.

As much as Greenspan and company has tried to destroy the domestic tech worker pool, there still is a glut of highly skilled and unemployed workers. So no, we don't need to throw more money at the problem and fund more 3rd rate universities, we just need to stop treating tech workers as expendable commodities to be purchased at the lowest possible price.

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Jul 19, 2011 11:15 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, you are factually incorrect: the US has always produced more native-born, citizen STEM graduates than it generates jobs for. We have no deficiency or shortage. Why does everybody focus on America's sub-par students and forget about America's whiz kids? Other nations have sub-par kids too. They just keep comparing their best and brightest to our average, because they want to crowbar our jobs away from us.

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Jul 19, 2011 11:27 AM Discrimination by National Origin Discrimination by National Origin  says: in response to Don Tennant

I respectfully disagree.  The United States has a surplus of highly skilled, motivated, accomplished, and educated tech pros who now live out of their cars with their families because they have been replaced by younger, less skilled, foreign citizens on alphabet soup visas. 

It is a crime that American talent is denied a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country, and it is a cop-out to blame ourselves and our education system. 

Foreign labor providers and greedy corporations with an agenda and bottomless lobbyist dollars bought the hearts and minds of politicians who passed laws that legalize discrimination against American citizens.

Rather than accuse we the people who want better lives for ourselves and children, are at fault for the problem, why not expose the truth about how Bill Gates and his convicted felon sidekick, Jack Abramoff?

By fabricating a labor crisis to pass their H-1b program, these criminals pulled off one of the biggest heists in American history that has deprived  American professionals their careers.  Dr. Nelson has done some excellent work here.     

I believe that a key reason companies hire compliant H-1b staff is because they don't want anyone on their staff blowing the whistle on illegal activities.  These visa staff don't know, don't care, or are too scared of being deported to recognize and report illegal activity.

Based on the laws of supply and demand I learned at Alan Greenspan and Wadwa's alma mater, wages should go up, not down, when supply is down.  

Something else, much more sinister is going on. The remarkable thing,  American techs are finally standing up, speaking out, and taking legal action.

It is high time to acknowledge the contributions and value of American talent. 

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Jul 19, 2011 12:31 PM Jackman Jackman  says: in response to Discrimination by National Origin

Don Tennant is a JEW .

Don after Looting USA do you have any plans to go to your Tribal land admist of ARABS ?

They offer you Free Citizenship, but alas, you couldn't scheme and fool people like you have done in USA ..

Don ..have you heard about something called Judeenrat?

Guys this guy Dontennant is sold out ,Ignore him, few years after he will leave to his native land after having amassed so much wealth by Fraud claims

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Jul 19, 2011 12:55 PM A. Christian A. Christian  says: in response to Jackman

The Jews are GOD's chosen people.

Jesus was born a Jew.

We are grafted onto the tree, and should be grateful for that.

WARNING: "And Balaam raised his eyes, and saw Israel encamped according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him. Then he took up his oracle and said... Blessed is he who blesses you, and cursed is he who curses you." (Numbers 24:2-3, 9, emphasis added)

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Jul 19, 2011 12:57 PM A. Christian A. Christian  says: in response to A. Christian

But as pertains to Tennant, he is a real 'piece of work'.

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Jul 20, 2011 3:25 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Don Tennant

What Jack said was terrible.  Even if you were Jewish Done - who cares!  It's not relevant to the discussion.  "Really Jackman?  Really?"  (In my most whiny liberal voice you can imagine)  Seriously though - Really?

That said, sometimes I bring up the Nazi regime when discussing the media and the impact on both politics and our society.  When Jewish people ask us to "never forget" my personal opinion is that if we want to stop repeating the past, we need to really study what factors impacted German culture and made not only mass murder possible, but also aggression against neighbor countries and ultimately a world war. 

Political correctness has taken the root cause off the discussion table - so we've been left explaining away the Nazi's as just "evil".  Not an intelligent start to preventing a repeat of the past.  We need to define what made them evil, how they became evil, and really understand how one maniac can influence the minds of millions of people so effectively. 

We have much to learn from the Nazi regime's evils.  I fear that we are repeating the same mistakes as the Nazis did.  Before Hitler could take power, key events had to be in place.  First, it was important that only an elite group of people controlled the country - specifically industry.  Fascism was in full effect. 

What was good for Volkswagen was good for Germany.  Forced labor of Jews, Gays, Poles, and anyone else they decided weren't "German enough" was a "good thing".  The goal of this labor was the extermination of the Jews.  Imagine a workplace where they are hoping that you are dead at the end of the day.  Corporate control made it easy to get everyone goose-stepping in the same direction and the German Shepherds barking at those who didn't want to or weren't allowed to. 

Next was the media.  Once media consolidation occurred, there were fewer people to intimidate and when the time came to control the message it was easily controlled.

I think we can use the history of Nazi Germany as a good lesson in terms of how the media - when consolidated into the hands of a few - can lead to disastrous consequences for everyone involved.   

Goebbels is a figure everyone should study because I believe he was the real source of Hitler's power.  Without Goebbels there was no heightened sense of nationalism, no WWII, no death/murder camps, and a very different world today. 

We know what happened to the Jews in WWII, but most people don't know why it happened or what made it possible.  That's one thing we should "never forget".

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Jul 20, 2011 4:02 AM ali ali  says:

Your argument makes no sense. If there is a shortage of workers in an area, wages rise and workers will move to it.

End the h1b and wages will rise and unemployment will fall.

I scored perfect on SAT and almost perfect on GRE I have a phd in engineering and after 20 years of work and grad school I am unemployed and cannot find a job for 1.5 years. You get older and expensive, they get rid of you.

Kids do not listen to this writer, he is obviously not a scientist. Do not go to STEM. Please believe me, it's brutal.

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Jul 20, 2011 4:17 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to ali

The supply-demand model is often used arbitrarily without due consideration of the parameters concerned. If the US were a closed economy, your argument would make sense.

Reality: The US trades extensively with the world. In fact, the US exports more services than it imports. If you were to ban the H-1B and the countries buying your services were to retaliate, you would lose more jobs that you had before...or wages would fall further.

The US is merely paying for all the "great" times when they could sell Coca-Cola to the rest of the world without the obligation to buy something to offset it. A majority of the people who whine here are merely unhappy at the outrage of a level playing field after decades of having had the upper hand.

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Jul 20, 2011 4:49 AM Those who don't know history repeat it Those who don't know history repeat it  says: in response to ali

The Fact - there is a surplus of highly talented Americans in technology.

The Big Lie - we need more foreign visa workers because we can't find Americans.

What is the big lie?  Sadly a page straight from Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf playbook (tell the same big lie over and over and eventually people think it is true). 

It is no coincidence that Mein Kampf is the #1 bestselling business book in India rt.com/news/mein-kampf-sales-india/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie The Big Lie is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler believed the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany's loss in World War I on German Army officer Erich Ludendorff.

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Jul 20, 2011 5:17 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Indian_H1B

"The supply-demand model is often used arbitrarily without due consideration of the parameters concerned. If the US were a closed economy, your argument would make sense."

This US is a "partially open" economy.  We don't have a free trade agreement with India, or open borders.  The supply issue makes perfect sense because India has no right to movement of labor in the United States.  We permit travel to facilitate business, however that can be revoked at any time.  We are a sovereign nation with a regulated market. 

If you live in a state that is part of the United States, then your statement would make sense.  India is no US state, therefore your statement is not true.

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Jul 20, 2011 5:43 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to ali

You're advocating that our kids not pursue STEM careers. The more what you advocate takes place, the less the United States will contribute in the fields of science, technology, engineering and math. So eventually, all work in those fields will have to be accomplished elsewhere, or here by foreigners. And you don't want to take any blame for the H-1B visa problem? You'll forgive me for not having a great deal of patience with that.

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Jul 20, 2011 5:50 AM Indian_H1B Indian_H1B  says: in response to R. Lawson

The level of trade between the US and India is hardly significant. It's more important to be aware of the precedents that you set. A ban of the H-1B program or erecting walls to ensure that outsourcing companies cannot do business in the US is setting precedents that signals to all of the US's trading partners (the ones that are many times larger than India) that it can choose to renege on fair trade and not play ball.

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Jul 20, 2011 6:18 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Indian_H1B

So,..... how many of these announcements before Americans can be forgiven for not hopping into tech careers? How many have there been already?

www.boston.com/Boston/businessupdates/2011/07/state-street-announces-more-job-cuts/2Ah9Wno4Q7WHDubEEBBYLN/index.html

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Jul 20, 2011 7:20 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Indian_H1B

"The level of trade between the US and India is hardly significant."

OK, I'll take that as a Freudian slip  

"It's more important to be aware of the precedents that you set. A ban of the H-1B program or erecting walls to ensure that outsourcing companies cannot do business in the US is setting precedents that signals to all of the US's trading partners (the ones that are many times larger than India) that it can choose to renege on fair trade and not play ball."

Immigration should not be part of trade laws.  Humans and commodity items most certainly should not be lumped together or treated the same.  So if that is the precedent that will be set, good.

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Jul 20, 2011 8:39 AM sonyaseo.1987 sonyaseo.1987  says:

Unitedworld School of Business-MBA College in Mumbai  provides world class facilities, Infrastructure with multilayer placement cell for students. One of best MBA College in Mumbai offers PGPM Courses, Executive MBA Courses, BBA Courses, and MBA Courses.

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Jul 21, 2011 4:09 AM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says: in response to hoapres

Yes, STEM careers are brutal.  If you don't love it, don't even attempt it.

Don, I know quite a few general contractors who are make 150-300k this year (Yes even in this recession, rich people on the San Francisco Peninsula will pay big bucks to have their house redone). 

On the other side engineers, even with decades of experience, are lucky to make half that, or have a job (see Cisco).

My advice to people in the pre-career stage would be to not jump into a profession that faces heavy foreign competition.  Because you can't compete, no U.S. citizen can compete with the 3rd world, in short-term dollars.  And many managers only see things in the short term, and those are the guys that determine whether you are replaced or not.

It is just a fact that engineering is one of those careers where the one thing that makes you somewhat unique (native English speaking skills) has very little value. 

Engineering is 90% math, and math is the universal language.

A far better career path would be in medical or legal.  Yes government and construction have been hit.   But a government job has a pension, a very sweet one at that.  And the general contractors I know, are still doing okay.  Construction companies can just lay people off, in fact I rarely seem them hire people (unless you are an idiot and think that day-labor is bonafide employment).

But if you love

- No job security

- No pension

- Little or no career path

- training your replacement

- And software development

A Stem career as a software developer is for you.  Obviously I am an idiot, but love makes you that way.

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Jul 21, 2011 4:48 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Jake_Leone

If STEM jobs are going to be extremely low paying then it just might be much more cost effective to simply offshore it instead of giving young Americans false hope to enter the STEM fields.

Even Don probably (or so I hope) believe that people in the US should not have to live like the third world.  The US can't compete on a cost effective basis with the third world.  If someone can do a job for $10K a year and an American in Silicon Valley needs $100K a year to survive then let's send the job to the third world.  I don't think Don believes that 12 H1Bs should be stuffed into a 1BR apartment which is what is happening today.

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Jul 21, 2011 5:31 AM Dislikes Shallow Commentary Dislikes Shallow Commentary  says: in response to Jake_Leone

Your comments are soft and fuzzy - not commensurate with the severe betrayal that is the unrestrained importation and exportation of foreign workers, and the associated lies, propaganda, and national dissolution, security concerns, resulting from same.

The other professions(+a) that you mention can and are also, impacted by this issue, plus, illegal immigration.

As for the 95% math comment, IT is a big umbrella, and includes more than hardcore engineering disciplines. As pertains to the average software development project, these can be accomplished with basic mathematical aptitude, natural ability, and creative thinking. Do not need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to functions, for the most. This is another of the myriad lies-even if H-1bs', etc., were the "best and brightest", and they are not, many position do not require the "best and brightest". But it is still a demanding task, and has been made light of.

We have spent the past 20+ years, teaching foreign nationals, in the latest technology stacks, while Americans languish on the sidelines.

Never forget, it' is about cheap', and compliant, and leverage, and greed, and not, about, truth, justice, and the AMERICAN way!

Your response does just not do justice to the situation. Things are going good for you? Glad to hear it. And when they come for' Jake? What about your kids? There does not seems to be any 'line', short of the bottom', as, in: "race to the bottom". What then? Maybe it will be a 'teeny bit', more, real', then?

This is deadly serious 'business'... We are witnessing its effect, no? Perhaps we are witnessing critical mass...

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Jul 21, 2011 6:08 AM Dislikes Shallow Commentary Dislikes Shallow Commentary  says: in response to Dislikes Shallow Commentary

The previous comment I posted was just too, sloppy; Revised Version:

Your comments are soft and fuzzy - not commensurate with the severe betrayal that is the unrestrained importation of foreign nationals, and the exportation jobs, and knowledge base, in conjunction with the associated lies, propaganda, and security concerns, and ultimately, the dissolution of our once great nation.

The other professions (plus) that you mention can be, and are, impacted by this issue, and by illegal immigration.

As for the 95% math comment, IT is a big umbrella, and includes more than hardcore engineering disciplines. As pertains to the average software development project, these can be accomplished with a basic mathematical aptitude, natural ability, and creative thinking. (Do not need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to functions, for the most part)

The mathematical aspect, is just further obfuscation, part and parcel of the dissemination of myriad lies.

Even if H-1bs', etc., were, the "best and brightest", and - they - are - not, many position simply do not require the "best and brightest".

And even if we need true, genius, there is, amongst the alphabet-soup, give-an-American-life-to-a-foreign-national visa, etc. offerings, an app', for that! The O-1.

We have spent the past 20+ years, giving our knowledge, technology, and jobs, to foreign nationals, incubating them in the latest technology stacks, whilst, Americans languish on the sidelines, watching their lives being led, by the pod-people, that their fellow citizens, saw fit to replace them with!

Never forget, it' is about cheap', and compliant', and leverage', and greed', and not, about, truth', justice', and, the AMERICAN way'!

Your response does just not do justice to the situation.

Things are going good for you? Glad to hear it. And when they come for' Jake? What about your kids? There does not seems to be any 'line', short of the bottom', as, in: "race to the bottom". What then? Maybe it will be a 'teeny bit', more, real', then?

This is deadly serious 'business'... We are witnessing the effect of our betrayal, no?

Perhaps we are witnessing critical mass...

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Jul 21, 2011 7:21 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dislikes Shallow Commentary

>> Perhaps we are witnessing critical mass... <<

Indians and Chinese can simply develop the latest and greatest in their own countries and the US corporate executives can simply order it and have shipped to the US.

The IT industry is pretty much played out and it is a "win win" for everybody stariing out.  You simply avoid the STEM fields if you are under 25 as the work is going to be done overseas.  No more reason to continue the nonsense of STEM American worker shortages since the work is not being done in the US.  Americans can't reasonably be expected to go 4 or more years to go to college for a minimum wage job and it is hardly fair to stick 12 H1Bs or more in a 1 BR apartment.

The big problem is for those over 50 and close to retirement.  Perhaps a government program akin to "Cash for clunkers" can be implimented such that those close to retirement can train their Indian and Chinese replacements.

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Jul 21, 2011 12:10 PM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Don Tennant

>> You're advocating that our kids not pursue STEM careers. <<

Absolutely.

>> The more what you advocate takes place, the less the United States will contribute in the fields of science, technology, engineering and math. <<

I don't think Don gets it.  Very few people in science make most of the contributions.  Either you are a genius or you are not.  That is not a negative reflection on us who are not Einstein but those are the facts of life.  Trying to make scientists out of those who are not is just a waste of time and money.  Most engineering and definitely IT is just labor. 

Just common sense tells you that STEM is a poor career choice when as Assistant Professor at San Francisco State University makes less than a MUNI bus driver.

>>  So eventually, all work in those fields will have to be accomplished elsewhere, or here by foreigners.  <<

If one has to choose between work going overseas or more people coming to the US then that should be an easy choice.

>> And you don't want to take any blame for the H-1B visa problem? <<

No

>> You'll forgive me for not having a great deal of patience with that. <<

Frankly I could care less.  I just call them the way I see them.  Doesn't make sense to me when we train over 1,500 physics PhDs a year and we have less than 300 jobs on the American Institute of Physics website for physicists.

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Jul 21, 2011 12:57 PM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to ali

>> Your argument makes no sense. If there is a shortage of workers in an area, wages rise and workers will move to it.

End the h1b and wages will rise and unemployment will fall. <<

The above should be so obvious that it needs no explanation.  What Don and others don't mention is that H1Bs are insourcing visas used by corporations to give mostly Indians the requisite skills via Knowledge Transfer (KT) so they can go back home with the jobs.

>> I scored perfect on SAT and almost perfect on GRE I have a phd in engineering and after 20 years of work and grad school I am unemployed and cannot find a job for 1.5 years. You get older and expensive, they get rid of you. <<

Absolutely correct.

>> Kids do not listen to this writer, he is obviously not a scientist. Do not go to STEM. Please believe me, it's brutal. <<

I doubt that Don ever worked as a scientist or an engineer.  You are absolutely correct that STEM is brutal as a career choice.

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Jul 22, 2011 1:18 AM They're R*t B*astards They're R*t B*astards  says: in response to Bob K

without deep thought, at first blush, i like it.

along similar lines:

3M's George Buckley: "We've got a real choice between manufacturing in Canada or Mexico - which tends to be more pro-business - and America," he told the Financial Times.

Does this sound like a Patriotic American Citizen, to you?

Not like faux-American corpseoration are not already doing this, and more...

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Jul 22, 2011 4:07 AM Bob K Bob K  says: in response to hoapres

"No one wants to admit it but societies go through phases.  Simply take a look at history like Ancient Greece and Rome.  The US may simply share their fate.

...

Even if the political will exists which it doesn't, it is hard to avoid work going to the cheapest locality.

What might temporarily stem the tide somewhat  is the likely decline of the US dollar which could it make less attractive to export labor.  "

Once again, the "forgone conclusion" refrain, this time dressed up in antiquity. The multinationals can't seamlessly go to cheap labor locations without the cooperation of the US government. China manipulates its currency, Europe has value-added taxes and other protectionist measures so that its trade deficit is close to zero.  We on the other hand sign more bad trade agreements.

So its ok to doubt that voters will elect intelligent polticians who will reverse the suicidal, globalism foolishness (free trade, massive guest worker programs, etc.), but we shouldn't portray it as some unstoppable transformation that we should all meekly accept.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:16 AM Bob K Bob K  says: in response to They're R*t B*astards

"Does this sound like a Patriotic American Citizen, to you? "

Americans and the politicians need to finally realize that corporate interests are different than the national interests. It's pretty basic but a'lot of policy tends to be a wishlist for the corporations. We've been bamboozled into believing the contrary. When I was driving the rural Georgia I was listening to a talk show on a religious station (it's almost all religious radio or country in those parts). The blowhard was saying "What's good for Wall Street is good for Main Street! I repeat..." I am hearing this drivel as I am driving by trailer homes and Wal-Marts. The unfortunate thing is that ordinary people gobble this up, since they'll believe anything that's not coming from NPR. God help us.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:17 AM hospres hospres  says: in response to Bob K

>> but we shouldn't portray it as some unstoppable transformation that we should all meekly accept.<<

Definitely get politically involved but I am not optimistic about success.  Don won't mention the fact that H1Bs are used as insourcing visas to accelerate the offshoring process.

Perhaps best described

Americans as a condition of receiving their severance working together as a team proudly training their H1B replacements to improve corporate profits by exporting their jobs.

If you are under 25 then it is pretty much a "no brainer".  Simply avoid the STEM fields (unless you are an Einstein) in the first place.

The problem is if you are over 50 and close to retirement.  While it won't happen, I believe that a "cash for clunkers" would be the best approach from those that are "prerejected" instead of wasting money and time on "retraining".  Once you are over 50 and out of STEM work then your chances of getting another job doing it are remote.

Clearly "I am not happy about it" but I am a realist.  India is too expensive for some companies and the work is getting offshored from India to even cheaper locations.

Don won't address the issue that STEM work is extremely low paying with extremely grim job prospects but simply will write a new article.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:50 AM Bob K Bob K  says: in response to hospres

The problem is there's basically nowhere to run (i.e in terms of avoiding the STEM fields). There's K-12 teachers, Pharmacists, Physical Therapists, etc who are being fired in favor of H1s. These were fields that many unemployed techies were told to go into, since once again, there was a "shortage" and somehow these professions were viewed as "safe" from globalization. American jobs across the board are being looted, whether its construction workers or financial analysts. If you care about your employment prospects, those of your children, neighbors etc., you got to take a hard line against pretty much all (with minimmal exception) of this cheap labor arbitrage. Whether it's done through "free trade", worker visas, illegal immigration, or legal immigration.

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Jul 22, 2011 5:12 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Dislikes Shallow Commentary

"Yes, STEM careers are brutal." - And by brutal I mean the following:

- Job requirements (especially in the programming and IT) are heavily inflated (often falsley, in order to give legal preference to a foreign Green Card candidate).

- Pay has been in decline.  Because it is easy to get someone in to do the programming or IT work.  It's easy because the work is often just technical work, which requires little or no local knowledge.

Hey, I think we actually agree on most points.  My point in writing what I did was to give the reasons why IT and Programming are not good career paths (Unless you love the work and don't have other opportunities). 

It is grossly unfair to this one profession that more than 50% of the visas are used to fill IT and Programming jobs.  Especially when there are clear shortages in other professions (for example Doctors, and skilled nurses). 

If there were no H-1b, B-1, or L-1, I would probably be making close to 200k, which be on par for the amount of time I put in to my job, and the productivity I add to my company (which is enjoying massive/record profits for he last 12 quarters) and my time in life.

Am I worth 200k?  Well I'll never know, because the market is manipulated by a government visa programs.  If there were no visa programs, there would be no legal immigration (by Law), and that has been the truth for 150 years in the United States. 

We do not have an open border, no modern country does.  If you believe otherwise you are an idiot.

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Jul 22, 2011 7:58 AM Dislikes Shallow Commentary Dislikes Shallow Commentary  says: in response to jake_leone

Man, you are all over the place with your post...

Your 1st hyphenated-point I never said anything regarding this, but I absolutely agree.

Your 2nd hyphenated-point I never said anything regarding this, but I absolutely agree.

Your first paragraph, I agree... but your original post had ancillary commentary to which I responded, but, no matter... you agree.

In regards to your 2nd paragraph: "It is grossly unfair to this one profession that more than 50% of the visas are used to fill IT and Programming jobs.  Especially when there are clear shortages in other professions (for example Doctors, and skilled nurses)."... my response is: Huh???! On one hand you concede the evils of H-1bs' as pertains to the tech sector, and then state that "it is grossly unfair" that other profession are not besieged by H-1b, etc., visa holders, green-card holders, etc.? And repeat the "shortage" lie, while doing so???! Whew Scratching my head over that one'

Your third paragraph I did not mention wage suppression in my post, but yes, of course there is wage suppression, just one of many (And I do mean many!) ills that come with unrestrained importation of foreigners, and exportations of jobs...

Your fourth paragraph does not correlate with my post, and it is difficult to determine, with any certainty, what you are trying to convey, so...

Your fifth paragraph again, does not pertain to my post, and though I do not know exactly what you are referring to, by 'open border', I guess I must indeed be an idiot, because our border is definitely not closed. Nor are our laws regarding same, being enforced.

Your reply, to my reply is a bit chaotic, and most definitely does not refute any points I made, and the points you do make, well... don't know why I felt compelled to take so much time responding to a post that did not really merit it, but here you go....

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Jul 22, 2011 8:20 AM Dislikes Shallow Commentary Dislikes Shallow Commentary  says: in response to Dislikes Shallow Commentary

I apologize for reposting, but the previous version was missing a carriage return, and the two conjoined paragraphs were bothering me...

Man, you are all over the place with your post...

Your 1st hyphenated-point I never said anything regarding this, but I absolutely agree.

Your 2nd hyphenated-point I never said anything regarding this, but I absolutely agree.

Your first paragraph, I agree... but your original post had ancillary commentary to which I responded, but, no matter... you agree.

In regards to your 2nd paragraph: "It is grossly unfair to this one profession that more than 50% (Don't 'know' about this percentage...) of the visas are used to fill IT and Programming jobs.  Especially when there are clear shortages in other professions (for example Doctors, and skilled nurses)."... my response is: Huh???! On one hand you concede the evils of H-1bs' as pertains to the tech sector, and then state that "it is grossly unfair" that other profession are not besieged by H-1b, etc., visa holders, green-card holders, etc.? And repeat the "shortage" lie, while doing so???! Whew Scratching my head over that one'

Your third paragraph I did not mention wage suppression in my post, but yes, of course there is wage suppression, just one of many (And I do mean many!) ills that come with unrestrained importation of foreigners, and exportations of jobs...

Your fourth paragraph does not correlate with my post, and it is difficult to determine, with any certainty, what you are trying to convey, so...

Your fifth paragraph again, does not pertain to my post, and though I do not know exactly what you are referring to, by 'open border', I guess I must indeed be an idiot, because our border is definitely not closed. Nor are our laws regarding same, being enforced.

Your reply, to my reply is a bit chaotic, and most definitely does not refute any points I made, and the points you do make, well... don't know why I felt compelled to take so much time responding to a post that did not really merit it, but here you go....

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Jul 22, 2011 9:12 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Dislikes Shallow Commentary

Don has a remarkable tendancy of labeling those that don't agree with him as nutcases or worse.

Some of these include :

1.  Claiming that "notion of weak demand for IT skills is utterly ridiculous" - April 21, 2011

2. "Advice from an over 50 IT pro Stop Whining and get back to work" - April 24, 2011.  It turns out that the "success story" was landing a customer support job paying $14 an hour.

3.  "Why employers need to screen out toxic job candidates" - April 27, 2011 with "toxic" including anyone that disagrees with Don.

4.  "Why the US Technology Force needs the Asian influence" - May 20, 2011.  No it doesn't Don what the US economy needs right now is JOBS.

5. "How do US, Indian developers really match up?" - June 29, 2011.  A useless dribble from Don having no software development experience.

Every time Don gets "busted" then you can "take it to the bank" that he is going to "run for cover" writing a new article. 

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Jul 22, 2011 11:07 AM Bob K Bob K  says: in response to hoapres

"You simply avoid the STEM fields if you are under 25 as the work is going to be done overseas.  No more reason to continue the nonsense of STEM American worker shortages since the work is not being done in the US."

And watch the US become a banana republic. There's only so many insurance, finance, and hospitality jobs for the 160 million to do. It's not a forgone conclusion that the US has to accept the migration of engineering and science jobs offshore.  This is the result of policy, not some invisible force of globalism. Policy multinationals and Wall Street has gamed for short term profit. These jobs CAN come back. It's pretty simple, we need to have local content laws. You might give me the common refrain that "Company A will react by moving ALL its jobs offshore." Well fine, Company B will hire locally and they can have the US market share, Company A can get slapped with a tarriff and sell its goods at a fraction of the price to the 3rd World. If there is the political will (this is key) we can show the multinationals whose boss (seriously).

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Jul 22, 2011 11:44 AM hoapres hoapres  says: in response to Bob K

>> And watch the US become a banana republic. <<

That is exactly what is going to happen.

>> These jobs CAN come back. It's pretty simple, we need to have local content laws. <<

Not likely to happen.

No one wants to admit it but societies go through phases.  Simply take a look at history like Ancient Greece and Rome.  The US may simply share their fate.

>>  If there is the political will (this is key)  <<

Doesn't exist.

>> we can show the multinationals whose boss (seriously). <<

Even if the political will exists which it doesn't, it is hard to avoid work going to the cheapest locality.

What might temporarily stem the tide somewhat  is the likely decline of the US dollar which could it make less attractive to export labor. 

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Jul 26, 2011 4:13 AM Susanne Susanne  says:

I am a 55 year old IT veteran and I have witnessed the off-shoring and H1_Bing of IT.  One thing I did not see mentioned here is how the Europeans have dealt with this issue.  They have data privacy laws that do not allow anyone outside Europe to look at personal data and they don't allow personal data to be moved anywhere outside of Europe.  Personal data is a very large amount of data btw.  So here in the U.S. our IT jobs are moved off-shore because there are no such data privacy laws.  Just thought I would throw that in.

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Aug 2, 2011 1:47 AM Rob Rob  says:

It's all about money, OK?  That will always be the case, so get used to it.

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Aug 2, 2011 2:12 AM Gordon Nicolaus Gordon Nicolaus  says:

Wow I have never heard such a simplified statement

Lets not include that accounts are paid vast sums of money to cut  costs

Or over paying executives

While we pay for people over seas to cut costs and hurt our economy

Remember for every position that is supplemented that is an untaxed employee

And most of the time that money leaves the country

we so doubly hurt our nation

As far as school lets not have a 3 month summer break and hear how the teachers complain  lets start taking kids out of school that are failing  and make them ditch diggers like other nations

this is just  surface level stuff I am talking about

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Aug 2, 2011 6:50 AM american-american american-american  says: in response to R. Lawson

Thank you for explaining to Don the reality of what I, as a 'Tech' person, am experiencing.  Corporate Lobbyists should be shot on site and ALL Politicians should be required to sign a Non-Compete agreement (if you're a tech, you've been forced to sign one of these during one layoff or another) which bans them from entering into any business arrangement that was facilitated through what they learned while in office for a period of five years after they leave office.  The HB-1 corporations/cheap workers have provided the vehicle that has driven my salary down to HALF of what it was.  Problem is, they're still buying bread at essentially 5 cents a loaf in their country and we're paying up to 4 dollars a loaf.  They got their education for peanuts and we are expected to pay with an elephant.   What politician hasn't been bought and sold by the likes of people such as Murdoch..... None that I can see.  He sure isn't getting the 'press' he has been in England which appears to have opened up an actual venue for 'truth' in journalism across the pond.  Something Don doesn't seem to grasp and doesn't need to since main stream media is now corporate propaganda.  Just look at the WSJ.

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Aug 4, 2011 1:24 AM Jay Jay  says:

Hi Don/R Lawson,

Came across this thread searching for info on H1B as a friend of mine was asking info on certain rules. The thing I hate is that more comments are generalized against we Indians in particular. Dont setreotype Indians only to the few Indians misusing the H1B's in US.

I have some questions - if H1B is a problem fix it or remove it. It has been there for almost 10 years I think. Why is it taking so much time for you to fix it. Just remember that H1B started not because of Indian government instituting such a program. It was done by American government, both the major parties' lawmakers and American corporate giants. Visa abuses is not just done by Indian companies but by other US multinationals giants also. Cheap indian IT labour is because of the demand and contracts from American companies.I would request the Indian haters to think about that and not just spew venom on hard working indians many of whom are just trying to get a better life.

If your hatred is because of a minority indians who abuse the system like the Subway/Restaurant types, the fake consultants and the students studying in diploma mills be very specific and dont generalize.

Most of the other countries  manage this better and open up sectors really based on need. I would like to point out one more thing. In the recent years some of the big companies in India and some Chinese MNCs began misuing Indian Business/Vist/Work visa policy and began replacing Indian workers with Chinese and other Eastern European/Ex Soviet union workers from Romania/Ukraine etc who can work at a lower cost because labour nowadays is very expensive in India. (Some of you may scorn but it is true. I am a small businessman in India but cannot afford to pay the higher salaries prevailing in the market for college grads. Do lot of work myself and take people who dropped out and not done college and train them. It is not easy to hire and fire workers in India who have low salary. You can hire and fire only management level employess or people having a salary above a certain threshold)

Indian government acted quickly after finding this out and enacted a rule recently that you need to pay a minimum of Rs 10 Lakh or USD 25,000 for a foreign worker. (Much much above average indian salary levels). For a highly skilled person anyway the salary should be high and that was the logic behind the rule. There are lots of foreign workers in India in Telecom Infrastructure Installation, Oil & Gas Exploration, Aviation because we dont have experienced people in those fields and are paid much higher.

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Aug 4, 2011 1:55 AM Jay Jay  says: in response to Jay

Just to add - if not Indians it would have been some other country citizens. So dont direct your anger at Indians. We are still poor people trying to get up and stand. Just to let u know, because Indian labour is costly, US and European multinationals are already shifting away. Indian companies lose lot of projects  to Phillippines (BPO), Vietnam, Costa Rica (Hewlett Packard) and South American countries, Romania, Poland (IT work), Morocco and North African countries (French/European countries started outsourcing here). Imagine there is talk that because of this salary levels in India will be coming down.

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Aug 4, 2011 10:09 AM Gordon Nicolaus Gordon Nicolaus  says: in response to Jay

I did not point my finger at Indians I pointed my finger at a system that takes jobs and money away from American Citizens that pay taxes and spend money here in America.

A system that continually rewards Accountants for cutting costs by hiring outside our country.  Also lowering the salaries for college graduates and experienced  professionals here in America.  I have stated this several times America can not support the world and a global economy will only destroy the lifestyles we cherish in our country.   If a global economy is required it should have been implemented slowly not hurled into our society .

As I also stated this is just scratching the surface of the issues

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