Internal Infosys Documents Reveal Illegal Workers at Sears Holdings

Don Tennant

Newly released internal correspondence shows that Infosys knowingly had B-1 visa holders illegally assigned to work at Sears Holdings, and sheds light on the internal machinations Infosys used to try to circumvent U.S. immigration laws.

 

The internal correspondence was released to me by Kenny Mendelsohn, the attorney representing Infosys employee and whistleblower Jay Palmer, whose pending civil suit against Infosys alleging visa and tax fraud sparked the U.S. government's ongoing criminal probe of the company. A study of the documents reveals the flagrancy of Infosys' illegal activity, and the troubling impact it had on the B-1 visa holders whose livelihoods were resting on a false foundation.

 

On Aug. 2, 2010, an Infosys employee on a B-1 visa assigned to a project at Sears Holdings in Hoffman Estates, Ill., had a problem that he posted on ServCentrale, Infosys' internal service management support and incident tracking system:

I have travelled to US on a Business Visa last week and currently I am assigned to a project in Sears Holdings. I wanted to open a bank account here and for the purpose I would need to present a address proof letter. Since I have travelled on a business visa and the fact that I am not able to create a new trip in Payworld [Infosys' overseas salary management system], I am not able to get the letter generated from there. Would you be able to send me an address proof letter?

As the employee noted, the reason he was unable to generate the letter in Payworld was that he was on a B-1 visa, which means that he was not authorized to draw a salary here. So he found himself in the same predicament that all the other illegal B-1 visa holders find themselves in: He was unable to do something as routine as open a bank account.

 

The incident was assigned the same day to Mohan MC in Infosys' human resources operations, who on Aug. 3 responded to the B-1 worker via the ServCentrale system:

We will issue the letter as requested, before that you should update your US address in pay World.

Later on Aug. 3, the B-1 worker responded to Mohan:

Actually I have travelled to US on a Business Visa. Due to that reason I am not eligible for salary That's the reason why I had gone for an offline request for an address proof letter.

On Aug. 4, Mohan emailed a screenshot of this ServCentrale exchange to Linda Manning, an HR associate in Infosys' Plano, Texas, office, along with these instructions:

Please assist with the below request from the employee in the screen shot.

Manning, knowing it would be illegal to issue the proof of address letter, refused to go along with the plan. Her email response to Mohan was unflinching:

Do not issue this letter. We cannot provide any letters unless the address is in Payworld.

The hapless B-1 worker was out of luck.

 

A second B-1 worker would find himself in a more serious predicament. After illegally working here for over four months, he applied for the Social Security number he needed to function in the United States. On Jan. 12, enmeshed in a Catch-22 not of his own making, he emailed this plea to Manning:

I landed in US on 12-Aug 2010 and I-94 [Arrival-Departure Record that non-U.S. citizens complete upon entry into the United States] was expiring by 10 Oct 2010. Since the expiry date was very near SSN was denied for me and they insisted that I need to return to their office after I receive the extension of petition & I-94 document.

 

I got the extension approved by USCIS and had the document on 07 Jan [2011], Today when I approached the SSN office they accepted the application but the officer had a question on how my salary is processed for past 4 months. Officer tried to reach on [TELEPHONE NUMBER REDACTED] to talk with HR and left a voice mail stating the reason.

 

Request you to call to the number mentioned below and explain how the salary has been processed for last 4 months. Also, I have enclosed the communication received from Social security administration in the month of September.

 

[PERSONAL INFORMATION REDACTED]

 

Please help me out in sorting the issue, She insisted that if no one turns up from Infosys within 2-3 days she cannot process the request. Let me know for any additional information required.

Later the same day, Manning forwarded the email to payroll specialist Dennis Jackson, with cc's to Nandini Lal, an Infosys senior HR lead manager; and Lynne Grant, Infosys' employee relations manager. Manning made no attempt to hide her disgust:

Would someone please respond to all? I want to know the same thing. How do we legally pay someone for 4 months with no SSN? Also someone needs to contact the SSA [Social Security Administration] in order for this employee to obtain a SSN.

Someone other than Palmer was pushing back. All of the shenanigans that Infosys had been engaging in to try to beat the U.S. system were beginning to unravel. The question that Manning asked - "How do we legally pay someone for four months with no SSN?" - is a tough one to try to answer. It will be even tougher when these Infosys officials have to answer it under oath.



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Aug 22, 2011 1:06 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to George Alexander

Exactly!! I have seen other big companies do this as well. Fixed bid promising certain number of resources, and then bring in as many B1s, L1s and H1bs to complete the project.

If it were a strong case, we would have herad something by now. Me thinks the case is just whimpering along!!

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Aug 22, 2011 1:07 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says:

>>"Infosys should worry more about the government's case than Palmer's.  Jay Palmer may cost them some money but the government's case can lead to more serious consequences for the company, including prison for any alleged conspirators."

Yes, this is true. I think this will set of a precident and hope it does! Companies like Infosys should play by the book and hire locally instead of bringing people for every little riff-raff thing they need to do here.

If clients can cooperate with the prosecution, then I believe the wieght against Infosys would be overwhelming. But I doubt it if clients would do that but who knows if the government would push for it.

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Aug 22, 2011 1:09 AM SS SS  says:

Don,

Get your facts right before posting such trash. You are making your self look like a dumb fool who would agree to anything and everything anyone would say without researching.

The second case is so clearly of a person who came here either on an H1B or an L1 visa just before his visa was getting expired. He applied for getting his H1 or L1 petition extended which is perfectly legal. And you have shamelessly stated it as a B1 case without researching. If you dont have even the basic knowledge on something, you should stop writing blogs on it.

Do you know that it could take close to 45 days for one to get an SSN. And a legal Alien can apply for an SSN only after 7 days of arriving in the US so that the SSA will have the details from the immigration dept. There are alternate ways to process the Salary of an induvidual during this period when the SSN is not available using other legal means so that he is not deprived of his salary. I don't see anything wrong in both of these cases.

The trash can is the only place this blog piece deserves to be in. Worst part is I wasted my precious 15 minutes on this trash.

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Aug 22, 2011 1:10 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to hireamerican

the prosecution will have to provide evidence that XYZ B1 guy did "work" and was paid for it by the client.

1. The "paid for it by the client" can be covered up in a fixed bid project.

2. the "did work" part can be covered up by infosys unless the client comes in a testifies - prosecution should see how much of this can be extracted out.

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Aug 22, 2011 1:28 AM These are These are  says:

not at all evidence for anything but Infosys do use emails to communicate.

This blog gets zero ranking when compared to any other blog by Don on Infosys.

All those emails shows nothing but someone on B1 tried to open bank account here (it is upto bank to accept the application and there is no law that says you shouldn't open bank a/c on B1). Bank asked for address proof and that employee tried to get it from their internal system. Opening bank account is no illegal activity

Second case is one resource tried to apply for SSN (seriouslly why he needs SSN and does any one told him to apply for it!!!) which is not requred for B1 (but applying doesn't hurt anyone right...). And it seems  'Manning' has no knowledge about different visas and its legal requirement which lead to ask everyone to educate her.

Don...again you decided to release names of Infosys employee without anyone's approval. I don't get what is so important to name every employee here. Your readers are not part of Jury...all they would need is what is going on with some anonymous names. Please refrain from release any  names as there are some unstable people in this world who may take the law on their hand. If you don't get anything by releasing their name then there is no reason for you to release it.

And if these are evidence Palmer hold then I am not sure why he/his attorney continue sharing with you as you have no legal rights to hold those information until it is public property.

If these are the evidence Palmer attorney is trying to use against Infosys...I won't be surprise if Infosys got out with no scratch.

This blog is the evidence where some blogger take law on his own hand and thinks everyone but him has no rights to be private.

Shame on you Don for releasing everyone's name whom you have no communication with. I would appreciate your effort if you refrained those names but now it will  be shame on me if I appreciate your effort. You are doing harm to people not to the company, I wish someone enlighten your way of thinking on others privacy.

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Aug 22, 2011 1:29 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SS

SS, hold it and don't get emotional. If the second person was on a B1, then the question of "how did he get a salary for four months" is a valid one and depending on how Infosys answers this and the evidence provided, we'll see the merits of this particular case.

It would be silly to think that this is an H1 or L1 because then they would have applied for extension through USCIS if that was the case. And the extension would not be for only three months. The reason he got an extension for 3 months is only because it's a B1 where it can be extended by a maximum of 3 months from the initial 3 months. H1s and L1s get extended for much longer.

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Aug 22, 2011 2:00 AM SS SS  says: in response to George Alexander

George,

A person can apply for a SSN only if he is authorized to work in the USA. A person who is here on a B1 visa can never apply for an SSN because he is not authorized to work and get paid here. The fact that he approcahed the SSA for getting an SSN proves that he was here either on an H1 or L1. I can bet everything that I have to vouch for this.

By the way where does it say that the extension was just for three months. It says his extension was approved on the 7th of Jan 2011 (Close to 3 months after he applied for an extension which is the noraml time that the USICS takes to process a request to extend an H1 or L1).

All I can say his Don has lost all his credibility here by making such a blunder.

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Aug 22, 2011 2:08 AM SS SS  says: in response to George Alexander

Below is the excerpt from the blog which proves they indeed approached the USICS for extension. Do you need any further proof to prove the persons visa category and Don's credibility.

"I got the extension approved by USCIS and had the document on 07 Jan , "

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Aug 22, 2011 2:21 AM Don has Don has  says: in response to SS

one point agenda....release as much information he has got on Infosys but as slow as possible (so people will keep visit his blog...like mega serials..give break with some junk blogs) and put as less verification as possible.

And there are people who just believe whatever Don claims and never use their brain to read any blog from him.

No one puts this much effort without any reasonable pay (to my understanding...there will be some share for Don if Palmer wins his case)...if there is no pay Don would have released everything in one blog and concluded his view instead he keeps blogging about Infosys every alternate (some time every two) blogs with 1 or 2 email contents. Worst part is Don will cut & paste the email content to prove his theory (case 2 here shows the way he projects the false information).

What disturbes me a lot is release of employee names without their approval (or companies approval)...to me all 3 (Palmer, Kenny Mendelsohn, Don) playing with lifes of Infosys employees for money.

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Aug 22, 2011 2:31 AM Shaktimaan Shaktimaan  says: in response to Don has

Yes you are correct. Here the agenda of Attorney is to try to provoke ignorant people against Infosys through all possible means, Don's blog being one of them. This might put some pressure on Infosys to give huge pay out to Palmer which Attorney projected before charging Palmer. But unfortunately nothing of that sort is happening considering the very small forums used with incomplete so called evidences. Hard luck for Attorney and Palmer!

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Aug 22, 2011 2:34 AM Su Su  says: in response to George Alexander

"the prosecution will have to provide evidence that .......was paid for it by the client." ~ Not sure if this is true also.

There is a difference between employee is getting salary and whether client is paying for services (may not be 'work') provided by that employee.

I understand "covered up in a fixed bid project" part but even if it is not so. Say client gave Infosys 100$ per hour for that employee and Infosys just paid that guys bills - may be as low as 100/day. Is it wrong?

Is it illegal for clients to pay any money to employer for its B1 employee?

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Aug 22, 2011 2:41 AM Su Su  says: in response to Shaktimaan

Why do we blog readers care about those hidden agenda?

Let them do whatever they want. We can atleast discuss within limitations of just being blog readers and consider Don only as a blog writer.

All other such claims are only allegations which can't be proved anyway. There is nothing much to provoke or misguide public. Infosys has no single products to sell to public and their clients don't take business decisions by reading blogs.

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Aug 22, 2011 2:45 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Don has

Seriously, anyone who's played more than one round of poker knows that you don't show your hand before the flop unless you are bluffing.  They are playing as if they have a very strong hand.

I don't believe these guys are bluffing and that they are simply showing the cards they are willing to show at this point in time.  Is it the smoking gun you want?  Maybe not, but I think they just showed us a Queen.  This is exactly how I and most good poker players get people to put more money in the pot. 

If Jay's attorney doesn't have a full house, they are doing a great job representing one.  This is when I would fold (and where Infosys should offer a settlement).  Unless they are holding something really strong, they should walk away from this hand.

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Aug 22, 2011 2:57 AM Hope Hope  says: in response to R. Lawson

Don agrees to your description of why they (all 3) playing this game.

As you said if it for money they (all 3) playing..then better let every reader knows why Don is playing this game. That way everyone knows what credibility Don's blog deserves.

You cannot act like fighting for legal rights while in the back door you make deal with the company and show middle finger to the readers.

And by any chance you know (because you advocate for Don a lot) why Don keeps releasing ever individual names when it is not quite need for public.

Do you think releasing names of those employees add any credibility to his blog or just for fun he is releasing those name ?

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Aug 22, 2011 3:03 AM Unfortunately Unfortunately  says: in response to Su

not all people who reads his blog use their brain to differentiate between blog and judgment. When Don keeps hammering false news about a company with thier employee names there is good chance some brain less people take this on their hand and harm innocent employees.

You could see many such cases (recent example Gabrielle Giffords case) in the world...these blogs are seeding for those nut cases. Don and other two will be enjoying the money they earn through this case but his blog will be there which will be feeding those nut cases for taking law on their hand.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:10 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Hope

Your accusation is silly.  Don is of course going to report as evidence is released and to suggest the he is their shill is absurd.  If Infosys released some information and he ignored it, maybe you would have a point.  But as of right now Infosys isn't showing their cards.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:26 AM You You  says: in response to R. Lawson

seem to play the silly game quite often. Don is nothing to do with Infosys and they are not playing the card game with him.

Don was using Plamer and documents collected by him to play the card game with Infosys. To me Don is playing game where Infosys not even joined/decided to join him.

All 3 (Don, Palmer and Kenny Mendelsohn) where playing with lifes of so many people...if they have a case they can very much play in the Court and get whatever possible and no one care how much they earned....

When they bring the case to public better have disclaimer(s) and refrain from displaying everyones name if they have no approval from concern party.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:28 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Hope

"Do you think releasing names of those employees add any credibility to his blog or just for fun he is releasing those name ?"

Don hasn't released names of employees (B-1 visa holders).  He released names of MANAGEMENT from a variety of departments.  He redacted personal information and the name of the workers that the email refers to.

Let's review what names were used in this post and what their roles are:

Mohan MC - HR

Linda Manning - HR

Dennis Jackson - Payroll

Nandini Lal Senior HR lead manager

Lynne Grant - Employee relations manager

These folks are all in HR (or related job), or with management titles.  These are exactly the names that we would expect to be released.  The workers who were here (allegedly) illegally were not identified.

Do you have any specific reason that these specific names should have also been withheld? 

I would also point out that some of these people may (or may not) have given Don permission to use their names.  The only name I would consider withholding would be Dennis Jackson since I would assume that Payroll Specialist is not management - but then again it may be and it also is related to HR - which represent management directly.

The bottom line is that when you join the ranks of management, you become accountable for your actions to the public.  You aren't entitled to privacy. 

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Aug 22, 2011 3:29 AM And And  says: in response to R. Lawson

so far you didn't say anything about names released by Don...is that something you agree or disagree ?

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Aug 22, 2011 3:30 AM SS SS  says:

Why are we still debating this. As I had mentioned earlier this particular piece of Blog is total trash and I am waiting to see Don's response on the points I made earlier. If there is any bit of dignity left in Don, he should have appologize for writing this baseless trash in the name of Blog.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:33 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to You

"All 3 (Don, Palmer and Kenny Mendelsohn) where playing with lifes of so many people..."

When Infosys decides to disregard the law, they are playing with the lives of American workers.  We have laws to protect us and even though they are inadequate we expect what little protections we have to be enforced. 

You see this as some victim-less crime.  It most certainly is not.  It impacts everyone in my industry as well as the children and relatives they support financially.  If the accusations are true, Infosys is stealing from hard working American families.

Don't come preaching to me about destruction of lives when companies like Infosys are destroying American jobs that they are not entitled to.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:34 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to And

Read the post before your response.  I directly addressed the names.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:41 AM And And  says: in response to R. Lawson

in which section of law says that I will lose my privacy when I join the management position ?

And you agree (at least to that extent) no names other than management can be released? Is such law in Don's law book or is it something you derived for your arugument?

To me no names (except CXO and PR office officials) names should be release by 3rd party without their approval or company approval.

Here is the list of names I got from Don's blog (www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/tennant/infosys-whistleblower-s-attorney-releases-incriminating-evidence/?cs=48186)

1) Kiranraj Karkera, an Infosys engagement manager based in Chicago

2)Ravi Kumar S, Infosys' vice president of enterprise solutions in Bangalore

3)Jennifer Alvarez, a quality assurance analyst at H&S

4) Sarah Cryder, IT manager in the Project Management Office at H&S

5)Manish Sawla, an Infosys offshore project manager

6)Shazia Mian, director of application systems at H&S

7)Infosys corporate counsel Jeffrey Friedel

8)Lynne Grant, Infosys' employee relations manager

You seem to accept anything if it is from Don...

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Aug 22, 2011 3:48 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy, with all due respect, it is the US government that is destroying the lives of the Americans. The outsourcing companies are just using the opportunity. That's all.

If our house is secure, then no one can steal from us. We can't leave our front door wide open and expect to be safe.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:50 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says:

>>Are you saying "doing XYZ for client is illegal" or "client paying any money for doing XYZ is illegal"?

"doing XYZ for client is illegal" - know if XYZ for client is illegal, we would have to know what XYZ was.

"client paying any money for doing XYZ is illegal" - this is illegal. No payment for any service is allowed under B1.

travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html#4

www.workpermit.com/us/employer_b1_b2.htm

While in the US as a business visitor, an individual may:

Conduct Negotiations

Solicit sales or investment

Discuss planned investment or purchases.

Make investments or purchases

Attend Meetings, and participate in them fully.

Interview and hire staff.

Conduct research.

The following activities require a working visa, and may not be carried out by business visitors:

Running a business.

"Gainful employment".

Payment by an organization within the US.

Participating as a professional in entertainment or sporting events.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:51 AM Yep Yep  says: in response to R. Lawson

that is right...because Infosys plays with lifes of Americans....Don gets rights to play with Infosys and its client employees life.

At the end Don will get his share and Infosys will get their share of money....and who is left with nothing but put their lives in public (without their approval) is employees...

Because some company does some stupid thing doesn't give public like Don to take lifes of the employees in his hand. He has no rights to take those employees names other than reporting to court.

Who are you to preach others what is right or wrong when you have nothing to lose here. You are not representative of Americans...and don't act like one.

Every individual privacy is more important than your case in Court, it is the court which can decided what can go out for public view.

All these blogs are nothing but blackmailing tactis....Don and his gang can win the case but never forget those people name released will be in public for ever no matter what you do.

And do you see this (release of names) as some victim-less crime ? If so, you may want to revisit your views.

Again...when you say what you want to ...then better prepared to listen what others have to say....if you are not here to preach anyone then no one is here to preach you.

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Aug 22, 2011 3:58 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to And

"And you agree (at least to that extent) no names other than management can be released? Is such law in Don's law book or is it something you derived for your arugument?"

This is not an issue of law.  Legally Don could have reported the names of everyone involved.  This is an issue of journalism and it is up to the journalist and the editors to decide their standards.  Most journalists protect the identities of children, and there may be some laws protecting them as well as victims of crimes.

People alleged to be involved with crimes (children aside) are usually reported in the media.  I believe that journalists should use discretion when reporting names, and in this case I don't believe Don crossed any lines.  Technically the workers on the B-1 visa are also alleged to be involved in a crime and he didn't report their names.

This is an American publication with American readers and American journalists.  I just got done chatting with an Indian activist who I've been corresponding with over the last few years.  Minutes ago he told me how he has been arrested 7 times and hospitalized twice simply for speaking on the H-1b issue (most recently in May).  If Don is interested in speaking with him I think that would make for an interesting story.

I can see why you want everyone to have their names protected since getting your a$$ kicked and sent to jail for stepping on corporate toes in India seems to be commonplace.

The problem isn't reporters telling names.  The problem is that Indian companies are sending India marching towards fascism and a state where people have no rights to free speech.  If you want something to complain about, complain about the corruption and silencing of people.

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Aug 22, 2011 4:00 AM chm chm  says: in response to R. Lawson

Your argument is silly in a sense that, "they" are also not "releasing" anything anywhere. Palmer's attorney is just sending it to Don and no where else cards are shown. Don is the only source here. You consider a broken mindless argument which has no sense and full of personal opinion as "Evidence"?

Don will be the last source of truth for any information Infosys is releasing so no one wants that to read from this blog. In fact Don will read through google search about those.

Infosys'es cards = Don will never be a source to readers.

Palmer's cards (so called) = Don is the only source.

Moreover it is not a journalism either. It is some cheap information which only Palmer's attorney wants to put here. Don has done no other work to put his "reports".

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Aug 22, 2011 4:03 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to R. Lawson

I can see why you want everyone to have their names protected since getting your a$$ kicked and sent to jail for stepping on corporate toes in India seems to be commonplace.

There was a story some years ago where some companies in Mumbai used underworld thugs to intimidate employees who were planning on job hopping in the tech industry.

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Aug 22, 2011 4:06 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to chm

Wouldn't you expect your attorney to defend you both in court an in the public eye?  Remember, Infosys called him a liar.  The rules changed the day that occured.  Jay has a right to defend his reputation.  Unlike Infosys he doesn't have billions in cash reserves and armies of corporate lawyers. 

He's fighting the best way he can, and good for him.  Am I biased?  Absolutely.  Infosys is the bully and the perp.  Stop portraying Jay as the bad guy - he is a victim of a powerful corporation frustrated that they can't send Americans to jail like they do their detractors in India.

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Aug 22, 2011 4:12 AM chm chm  says: in response to R. Lawson

In all your bla bla about supporting Don has nothing to do with law. "And" might be little ignorant about whether it is lawful or not but he is true in a sense how cheap Don't "journalism" sounds here.

Even a journalist can can take a nude photo of someone and post it in media - nothing happens there. The problem is who belongs to which class - that is the point. Sameway nothing is wrong on law if Don does whatever he is doing. However certain people can call it a cheap act - why do you have so much problem with that? You might woreship him and get enlightened thorough - it seems to be your only source of "knowledge".

Everyone is smart enough to grasp what's going on behind so called journalism - you can't change those minds.

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Aug 22, 2011 4:22 AM chm chm  says: in response to R. Lawson

"Infosys called him a liar.  The rules changed the day that occured. " ~ In a court case that is the main point right? How is it a game changer? Any court case is always that way. One party calls other party liar.

"Unlike Infosys he doesn't have billions in cash reserves and armies of corporate lawyers." ~

Law and order doesn't work that way. Does that mean if I fight against US govt they will send sealteam against me :P Palmer doesn't need anything to prove to public. His job or life is no way dependant on public image that he needs to keep that up. If he comes out winner that will be enough.

Ok so they have some money to hire cheap journalists. They are doing in their limited way what they can do. End of story. We all agree then.

Public deciding something in blog comments will always be personal opinions. You will call someone "the bully and the perp". Someone will call Palmer something how does it matter?

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Aug 22, 2011 4:32 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to chm

His job or life is no way dependant on public image that he needs to keep that up.

On the contrary... if Palmer comes out as the loser and liar in court, his career here is finished. Everybody knows who he is. Infosys employees would just go back to India or be assigned to another global location. So I think if anyone has more to lose, it is Palmer by a huge margin.

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Aug 22, 2011 7:15 AM Su Su  says: in response to George Alexander

>>>""doing XYZ for client is illegal" - know if XYZ for client is illegal, we would have to know what XYZ was. "

Well understood. My assumption was - let's say XYZ is legal job description. so your documents refer to it and clearly says what is legal.

>>>""client paying any money for doing XYZ is illegal" - this is illegal. No payment for any service is allowed under B1."

This point however never came out of your links. It is not a 'gainful employment' for B1 visa holder, however client might pay employer is totally different thing. May be a lawyer can confirm this with much more confidence but I have a feeling that nothing is wrong if "client" pays to "employer" for serives provided by "B1 employee" as long as B1 employee coming in US and earning salary.

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Aug 22, 2011 7:31 AM Su Su  says: in response to Su

GeorgeArchitect,

Also there can be much complexities about how do you differentiate between payments which employer will get from client. While "billing" client for services under similar statement of work is not allowed there can be many ways how actually employer can get money from client.

As you said one clear way is fixed price projects. Not sure if employer can get 500$ from client per day for B1 visa holder's stay in US for  different expenses but they really provide reimbursement on actual bills to poor B1 guy and then (this is best part) employer's policy might say max allowed hotel charge is 40$ and and cab expenses can be 10$ per day and so on....or you get a flat 40$ per day and that guy will still be ready to come to US for 3 months under such terms.

I know some cases where employer bills to client 4000$ for flight, 150$/mnth for cell phones etc and then may be actually returning so less to actual employee. While these all can be very cheap acts from employer - I wonder is there a way you can blame employer for illegal activities for such cases?

And forget about what "work" they are doing and how do you prove it legal or not unless you put a bunch of security cameras to track each B1 holders everywhere :P

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Aug 22, 2011 7:40 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Su

What you said is correct. If the vendor charges for expenses such as B1's travel, accomidation, food (these are invoiced), then there is nothing wrong. But if the vendor charges for services from B1, then that is illegal.

Respectable companies will send their B1s with flight travel and hotel accomidation already taken care off and they will be given cash advance of daily allowance of expenses while others may have a process where they will be reimbursed for expenses. It's really not that complicated when it's done honestly.

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Aug 22, 2011 7:44 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Su

>>"And forget about what "work" they are doing and how do you prove it legal or not unless you put a bunch of security cameras to track each B1 holders everywhere :P "

The SoW, invoices, reciepts or members from the client side to testifying can be incriminating. If you have a programmer who says he came to discuss business with Sears and then Sears IT department project manager says that he does great coding and testing, Then you have a problem.

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Aug 22, 2011 7:58 AM Please don't feed the trolls Please don't feed the trolls  says: in response to chm

The trolls are all over this discussion. Please do not respond to trolls - doing so feeds them and gives them exactly what they want. 

The best way to stop a troll - ignore them.

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Aug 22, 2011 9:07 AM This was This was  says:

the funniest part of this whole blog...

"Newly released internal correspondence shows that Infosys knowingly had B-1 visa holders illegally assigned to work at Sears Holdings, and sheds light on the internal machinations Infosys used to try to circumvent U.S. immigration laws."

Don, who released to whom and where ?

You already have all these long time back and you keep releasing one by one.

Do you mean "Kenny Mendelsohn" gave these emails only yesterday ?

Do you want everyone to believe "Kenny Mendelsohn" is releasing one by one to you and nothing else you know about the evidence ?

Either you are misleading readers with your 1st para or you are assumed lot of things on this case with few emails released by "Kenny Mendelsohn", both can't be true.

Also did you noticed the key word "Internal correspondence" which implies it is not for public to review it before court got chance to reiview it?

Are you trying to spew venom about Infosys slowly so that your readers won't forget about the case and their anger on Infosys?

What kind of journalism you are trying here?

If you have full knowledge about all evidence then you can't say "Newly release...." and if you have half knowledge then you can't pass judgement again Infosys quickly.

Something is fishy in your journalism...filled with blackmailing and nothing on reasonable evidence.

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Aug 22, 2011 9:27 AM Day by Day Day by Day  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

you are getting cheap tactics to defend Don which by itself says you(Lawson) got nothing to offer in favor of Don.

"I can see why you want everyone to have their names protected since getting your a$$ kicked and sent to jail for stepping on corporate toes in India seems to be commonplace. "

Protected from whom...?

Do you understand what is the issue/cause in releasing names of employees whoever communicated on immigrations?

Are you suggesting whomever sent (even a single) email on immigration played role in the visa fraud?

Those emails are known to Infosys and those doesn't have anything credible to imply anything against Infosys....So they don't have to worry other than for their life from crazy peoples.

"There was a story some years ago where some companies in Mumbai used underworld thugs to intimidate employees who were planning on job hopping in the tech industry. "

Ya now same tactics Don was using against Infosys...so you mean to say Don and team are underworld thugs?...who knows you could be right....

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Aug 22, 2011 9:44 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

This looks really bad for Infosys. Repeated pushback and yet they continued this underhanded practice ? How many times can you claim "a mistake" ? It will be interesting to see the depositions of the people subpoenaed at the trial.

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Aug 22, 2011 9:47 AM Pro Pro  says:

How will this ever play out? I don't see any fear or remorse from these companies. Isn't justice delayed mean justice denied! The delays in judgement means more B1 visa holders shuffled around and more jobs gone and more illegal activity!

880* job postings openly advertised with B1 visa keyword and probably thousands more on internal websites!

jobsearch.monsterindia.com/searchresult.html?fts=b1+visa

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Aug 22, 2011 10:08 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says:

Obama just granted wok permits to all illegals. Case closed!!!

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Aug 22, 2011 10:16 AM asdf asdf asdf asdf  says: in response to hireamerican

I don't see DOL, ICE and TSA closing down shop because of that. The devil is in the details of the implementation. So I wouldn't say that it is "free reign" for illegals just yet.

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Aug 22, 2011 10:20 AM Chamat Chamat  says:

Is this a made up story? As far as I am aware it is a myth that one can't work or cannot draw salary without a SSN. So there should not be any chaos with Manning and folks on this.

I understand that one can't draw salary on B1 Visa. But in the blog above it seems that the worry was how someone was paid without SSN, whereas it is all legal. Read more about SSN related myths by Claire Wolfe:

www.loompanics.com/Articles/YesYouCan.html

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Aug 22, 2011 10:23 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says:

It is encouraging to see that USA Infosys pushed back on activities that violate US law. Knowledge of a felony and not doing anything about it is also a felony.  

Hopefully, these Americans will step forward and file charges against Infosys to shut down these illegal practices.

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Aug 22, 2011 10:34 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Chamat

Yeah, I'm going to test the law by what a random web site says... a sizeable number of people also believe that paying income tax in the US is not necessary, due to their mistaken interpretation of the IRS Code 861. The actor Wesley Snipes, now in jail, is one of them. So take your chances.

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Aug 22, 2011 10:50 AM Su Su  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

I really did not understand these 2 cases above and it was kept very open ended so not at all sure who is wrong and what was going on.

1st case - it is some official struggle to generate address proof letter. B1 employee told himself he doesn't get salary. All he needed address proof. Some clark at infosys end can't issue that due to system restrictions. What happenned next? Did the poor guy get address proof from employer? What exactly point here and what went illegal?

2nd case -  Someone is getting in official processes and struggling to get an SSN. Again they need a clarity how exactly that guy is getting paid. I also want to know how? What was outcome of that? Considering that guy was B1, similar to 1st case he might not have any salary here in US. So SSN authority just wanted to know more on that. Did that guy get SSN after clarification from Infosys? Again what exactly went illegal here?

Had that guy been an H1 visa holder - it is okay to get salary without SSN (that doesn't mean you don't get one). However SSN authority itself takes as long as 6 months to issue SSN. Sometimes i-9 data is not updated in their system from Dept of homeland security. If not 6 months it definitely takes more than a month to get a SSN after you first time enter US and during that time everyone gets paid by their employer a salary. It is upto authority issuing SSN how much time they will take to issue SSN, but in between they can't stop applicant's salary.

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Aug 22, 2011 10:58 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Day by Day

For those of you claiming that Don is biased and a poor journalist because of his reporting on Infosys, it wasn't too long ago that people on the opposite side of the spectrum were calling him "Mumbai Don".

I didn't agree with the people who said he was a "traitor" to America and siding with India at the time, and I don't agree with the Indian people who are saying approximately the opposite today.

It's clear that some of the people posting here have close ties to Infosys or the outsourcing industry.  Everyone knows my bias (American IT worker slant), do you folks care to reveal yours?  Let's at least not pretend to be disinterested parties.

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Aug 22, 2011 11:12 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Su

Like I said, all this is moot. Obama just granted work permits to illegals.

There is no case left here.

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Aug 22, 2011 11:16 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to hireamerican

If this is true,  Obama should be impeached for violating his fiduciary responsibilities to WE the people - NOT greedy billionaire benefactors, NOT Infosys and Microsoft, NOT people who intentionally break US law.

What part of illegal is NOT illegal?

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Aug 22, 2011 11:18 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to hireamerican

I highly doubt that. If that were the case, all visa issuance and border security would go away. And illegals still have to be vetted to prove they are actually not criminals. That can take a while given how slow such background checks are. If that were the case, then why have background checks for Green Cards and Citizenship applications ?

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Aug 22, 2011 11:28 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

LOL....all that is just so you and I cannot take advantage of the system. It is meant for the Microsofts and Infosys' of the world. How naive!!!

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Aug 22, 2011 11:31 AM LOL LOL  says: in response to Su

You mean Don was provided with trash from Kenny Mendelsohn, the attorney representing Infosys employee and whistleblower Jay Palmer and he presented it to us?? Frankly both the cases didnot make any sense to me as well....

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Aug 22, 2011 11:42 AM Su Su  says: in response to hireamerican

Yes - totally separate discussion is whether those guys should have recvd B1 in first place or not

Whether current economic situation someone should get H1 or not. Those are totally separate debate.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:06 PM Madagasper Madagasper  says:

This is probably the proverbial tip of the iceberg concerning most of the Indian software companies operating in America.  Looks like they brought with them their bad Indian habits of circumventing rules and regulations.  You can get away with anything in India, but alas, in the USA the law matters.  We can only imagine the kind of fraud the mom-and-pop Indian body shops in NJ are involved in if the Infosys example is anything to go by.  Kudos to Don for brilliant reporting.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:14 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Madagasper

Yawn. Nothing is gonna happen to Infosys. I think the bad Indian habits have permeated the American business, and are here to stay. The CIOs are getting bribed, the politicians are getting contributions....so it will be business as usual in the new USA!!!

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Aug 22, 2011 12:15 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to hireamerican

It remains to be seen what will happen when people just give up on legal immigration and hop over to the illegal side, if there are no checks or legal repercussions. People have tried all sorts of things as we are seeing, so nothing like seeing someone test the system.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:24 PM George Alexander George Alexander  says:

As much I want the truth regarding Infosys to come out, this is not evidence at all though it would pander to anyone who wants evidence.

This is just the first step for prosecutors to start. More evidence is needed. A defence attorney can easily counter these two incidents if this is all there is to it. I am very familiar with the legal requirements for these visas. Under business visa, though no salary is a requirement, the company is expected to take care of expenses. And most companies pay a daily stipend or a lump sum amount to cover for expenses (hotel/travel/food) once in the US. The employee can furnish reciepts for reimbursement if no advance amount is provided. During the same time, the employees will get their regular local salary at their country of origin. If Infosys can prove this, then the prosecution is left with nothing to proceed with.

As an example, the first incident is an easy one is a complete dud: the employee needs to cover expenses and requires a bank account. The Employee clearly acknowledges that he is not eligable for a salary to which the Infosys HR/Finance refers him to the internal processes (payworld) after which it is confirmed that an address cannot be created and consequently, no salary. So what was the problem again? It is clear that internal Infosys processes prevented him from getting a "salary".

The prosecution has to provide proof of "salary" while in the US. Infosys will counter that they are covering expenses while on business visit and can prove this by showing hotel/travel/food expenses. The other area that prosecutors should focus on is to find out the nature of "work" that was performed.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:34 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

That is a valid point... this evidence is part of a greater tangled web of information that has to be pieced together to show clear intent. But what comes across based on this and other Infosys internal communiques is that this was a pattern repeated across various employees placed at various companies.

From a historical standpoint, Al Capone was in the end indicted and convicted on tax evasion and not murder. So sometimes it is not the obvious that will the basis for the legal case against Infosys.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:38 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to George Alexander

Also if Infosys charged the client for the services.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:43 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to hireamerican

@hireamerican the Obama administration's directive doesn't change anything in this case.  Fraud is fraud, and illegally using any immigration program is still a crime.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:46 PM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

SealTeam6, I agree. I strongly suspect that Infosys may have a number of cases of wrong doing (my hunch is that senior managers who have to improve the bottom line (and increase their variable stock related salary component) pushed for going around the visa process while the visa department that is supposed to issue the visas just followed requirements - I can already see where gaps in internal processes can occur and Infosys might resort to "rogue managers" within the company and then get off the hook with a hefty fine).

I can see the loopholes that can be resorted to if this is the type of evidence that will be presented. The prosecutors will have to go for more indepth evidence - bring in the SoW documents for example and prove that so-and-so person did the work mentioned in the SoW, reciepts, etc (bring client managers to testify if they have to. To which I guess the client would strongly oppose).

It sounded pretty simple initially when Palmer spilled the beans but the more I think about it, the more it kind'a dawns on me that Infosys can counter most evidence unless the prosecution is pretty solid, prepared with countering the possible defence arguments. The evidences presented should not be ambigous to interpretation like the above.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:47 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to R. Lawson

In addition, a company conspiring to commit  large scale immigration fraud is very different from a person being here illegally just on an individual basis. The moment it comes to light that a bunch of illegals are linked to a single entity/company pushing them , I think it is apparent that they are not genuine cases of people trying to escape persecution etc.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:53 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

Yes, I think that Infosys is going to throw some managers to the legal wolves and plead that it was the fault of those individuals. Of course that can backfire and the managers could turn against Infosys once they realize that they are being cut loose without any protection.

In any case this is going to set a legal precedent, both in terms of the outcome and in terms of what companies like Infosys do in the future. It may end with both sides claiming victory depending on their respective points of view.

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Aug 22, 2011 12:54 PM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to hireamerican

We will have to understand the nature of "client services". If the person on business visa was billed, then yes, that's it. Smoking gun. Infosys is nailed.

But if he was not billable, it's a dud. Remember one of Palmer's statments that said that the Infosys makes sure that B1 guys are not on 'time & material' .i.e billed hourly but 'fixed bid' - .i.e you pay for the whole service (the entire project delivery with any number of people)? Fixed bid projects are those where you promise to deliver the product at the end of XXX months at a fixed price. The vendor will use any number of resources to achieve this target.

So infosys can claim 'Hey, we brought in our business analyst to study the nature of our client's business and report back to India to the developers. And look at the SoWs and the reciepts, this guy is not billed anywhere!'.

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Aug 23, 2011 1:46 AM Madagasper Madagasper  says:

Don, why do you call the B-1 visa holders "victims" ?  Aren't most of these folks willing participants in the scam ?  Just like those 'students' who came to Tri-Valley university knowing full well that this was a back door entry into the USA and then when the university was raided, claimed victimhood.

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Aug 23, 2011 7:03 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Madagasper

I feel the same way. I consider the visa workers to be accessories after the fact, at the very least. By taking American jobs they become receivers of stolen goods, much as if they accepted a stolen car, knowing that it was stolen.

And it never fails to amaze me, all the time and energy expended by the Nasscom fans trying to assert that Infosys is not run by an assortment of overstuffed plastic trash bags bundled into tailored suits. All they see is the suit. Hint: it's not just what you SEE. 

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Aug 23, 2011 7:13 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Dolores

The bland response you get from the visa holders is "I've done nothing nothing wrong. Your government allowed me to come here and work. So why should I give a flying fig about what you feel or think".

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Aug 23, 2011 10:14 AM Now everyone Now everyone  says:

guess why Infosys said Palmer is liar...

The sexual assault case against Dominique Strauss-Kahn is now over. The judge has granted the prosecutors' motion to dismiss the case against the former head of the International Monetary Fund. But for all the complex legal machinations, one simple question remains unanswered: What happened between Strauss-Kahn and Nafissatou Diallo, the housekeeper at the Sofitel in New York, on May 14?

The answer -- or nonanswer -- explains something about our legal system. Cyrus Vance Jr., the Manhattan district attorney, moved to dismiss the case against Stauss-Kahn because his staff came to believe that Diallo could not be trusted as a witness.

www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/23/toobin.strauss.kahn/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Whoever proud of great laws in US....let everyone know how it works...

You can bring anyone to court but getting punished for their criminal action is uphill task in US.  This is second case (after Casey) which everyone in America and proof says something but judgement/case goes in quite opposite way.

Best of luck in proving Infosys is guilty.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:15 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to I have

"When you say "American IT worker slant" means American citizens only right?According to you if a person working in IT without citizenship is not part of your 'IT worker slant'."

Great question. I support human rights around the world, including basic freedoms like association with a political party, workers, association of business people (private or public corporations), and the freedom to express any idea or belief without fear of reprisal from the government or the establishment. I oppose regimes like the Chinese government and I oppose the expansion of corporate POLITICAL power because they routinely misuse that power.

I don't believe that corporations, unions, or artificial entities have rights - but the people within them do. So I of course oppose "person-hood" status granted to corporations AND unions and the redefining of what it means to be human. Nobody should be shielded from a crime because of the "veil of a corporation". We are making it so that people are no longer responsible for their actions - and that is partially why we have the problems seen at Infosys. You shouldn't assume that when you send out an email assisting in fraud that your name won't one day be exposed in the media.

I am also an American. As such I have further loyalties to my country. I don't believe it is fair for my countrymen to be put at a disadvantage in the market place (from say Indian corporations) because of cheating. By cheating I refer to manipulation of currency, lack of labor rights and human rights, inadequate environmental protections, and disregard for immigration and equal opportunity laws.

I believe your countrymen have a right to compete in the global market place with us, and we should not punish fair trade and fair competition. However, I believe we should protect people in our market from the unfair or uneven things I mentioned before. If we don't our nation gets punished for doing the right thing. 

It isn't fair that we are punished in the market place because we have human rights, labor protections, open markets, environmental protections, and so forth while our trading partners don't provide the same. It costs money to do what is right.

The global economy should reward countries who do the right thing, not punish the people for it. There is a greater incentive to do the wrong thing, and as long as that incentive exists I embrace protectionism. If you want open markets and free trade you have to play by the rules.

Personally I don't believe we can have anything close to free trade so long as we have fiat based currencies around the world. We really need one global currency - and I would suggest that the currency have inherent value (precious metals for example). We are working our entire lives for monopoly money (that's a game that has been popular in America for national readers not getting the reference - the game uses fake money).

It shouldn't matter what face or flag is on a coin. We should worry about the value of the metal in the coin, not the arbitrary number stamped on it. A global market needs a global currency. Without that, protectionism is the only sane option.

Although I support protectionism at this time, I also support free trade as a goal (not the means to achieve the goal, but the goal itself).  Reply

Aug 23, 2011 10:15 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to I have
In order to achieve that goal we need a commonality when it comes to the following:currency regime, taxation, labor rights and protections, environmental protections, human rights and freedoms, and finally a strong democracy.

Today's batch of free traders think that free trade is simply signing a document and magically it will happen. That way of thinking is why we are in so much trouble economically. They are all about quick and painless solutions to complex problems. These guys bought the diet pills from China made of some mystery chemical when they should have been going to the gym. They are turning the world (well, the common people at least) away from free trade so their strategy is destined for failure.

The result of these quick solutions will be the economic collapse that is occurring now and will continue to occur until we start owning the problem and taking action to correct our past mistakes.

Finally, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we (the United States) cheats I believe we deserve to be held accountable also. The US isn't innocent, but I think the trade deficit is an indicator that "we cheat less" in the global marketplace. Not a ringing endorsement or national slogan that I hope gets stuck with us, but as Americans we need to own up for our own actions and change them.

On the issue of immigration, I believe that free trade should include free movement of people. However, I must stress that this cannot occur unless humans have the same rights and protections no matter where they are. So this is one of those things that we work up to, not something that happens over night. I'm thinking decades, not months.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:23 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Dolores

I agree with Dolores.

  • Infosys 

  • Infosys administrators who aided and abetted B-1 visa felony offenses 

  • Infosys B-1 visa workers, coached by Infosys to lie to US immigration officials, knew going into the deal that they were entering the USA with improper visas. Every US immigration site clearly outlines this.

  • Infosys clients through their own negligence, failed to verify the legal work status of workers on their company premises

    • Why didn't they use e-verify?

    • Their failure to use this system is a risk to US security

    • Don't forget the 9.11 terrorists were guest workers. 

All of these parties are accountable for these crimes, including customers.  Knowledge of a felony and not reporting is a felony.

My suggested penalties:

  • Jail per US law up to 25 years (non citizens immediately deported to serve this sentence in their own country)

  • FINES for EACH party  $100,000 per B-1 visa per year

  • Payable the American citizens laid off and replaced by this fraud.

At minimum, the displaced American should receive $400,000 every year they were out of work due to this visa fraud and abuse.

The sooner ethics, quality, and integrity return to the United States the better.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:25 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Now everyone

>>This is second case (after Casey) which everyone in America and proof says something but judgement/case goes in quite opposite way.

What is the "proof" that DSK 5'7 sexually assaulted 5'11 Nafissatou who, according to NYPD, had repeatedly lied to police after making her first statement?

Innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way round. That's how the law works.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:27 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Now everyone

Yeah well, just remember that Infosys lost two sexual harassment cases. And an age discrimination one. Enough said. Your analogy has no meaning.

An interesting news item about the esteemed Mr Kahn:

Air France will only use male stewards when Strauss-Kahn flies: report

Le Parisien newspaper said the lawyers were given an anonymous letter stating Air France decided "only male employees were to work in the first class lounges when travelled" and that the French national carrier had received "hundreds of complaints" about him.

www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/air-france-will-only-use-male-stewards-when-strausskahn-flies-report-20110805-1ie5j.html

Mr DSK is kind of like our own Mr Rodney King... "innocent" in court. But not so much in the real world. YMMV

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Aug 23, 2011 10:28 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Jobs4US

>>"My suggested penalties:

    Jail per US law up to 25 years (non citizens immediately deported to serve this sentence in their own country)

    FINES for EACH party  $100,000 per B-1 visa per year

    Payable the American citizens laid off and replaced by this fraud.

At minimum, the displaced American should receive $400,000 every year they were out of work due to this visa fraud and abuse. "

That's a nice wish list. I like to have my own private jet too.

>>The sooner ethics, quality, and integrity return to the United States the better.

True. We can start with Iraq and Afghanistan and other places US corporations and government have wrecked havoc.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:33 AM WE the People WE the People  says: in response to Now everyone

You can run but you can't hide.   Infosys is just one of thousands of criminals gaming the US immigration system and ruining the lives of millions of American families. 

The sleeping giant has awoken - WE THE PEOPLE are madder then hell and will make sure America stops outsourcing American jobs.  Wait until election day or sooner - you will hear our voice LOUD and CLEAR. 

Outsourcing is OUT.  And so are the corrupt fraudsters who bought their way into influence. 

It might be a good time for you to get your affairs in order and quietly leave the USA before you're forced out.   

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Aug 23, 2011 10:35 AM You seem You seem  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

valid point...but did you missed an important part ?

All those 3 cases settled out of court which is not a lost technically...

And Palmer case they are trying hard (by different tactics like blogging) to get Infosys for out of court settlement but so far it was not fruitful.

Did you noticed the difference....whenever Infosys feels the case is not worth pursuing (or will lose) they go for out of court settlement but that was not the case with Palmer...hmm..do they have something to smash this case...

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Aug 23, 2011 10:36 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to I have

"Palmer case is in court and he has no rights to release evidence to 3rd party (here Don) and that 3rd party has no right to release it to public without providing reasonable privacy. "

Actually, he has precisely that right:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law . . . infringing on the freedom of the press,

Legally, he is entitled to do exactly what he has done.  If you are arguing that it is unfair and not good journalism, you are entitled to that viewpoint.  Just making sure you understand the law because from a legal perspective not only is it OK it is protected.

As far as privacy is concerned, Don redacted phone numbers, addresses, email accounts, and so forth.  He revealed the names of some managers and HR folks at Infosys but he didn't reveal private information about them other than their job title and how they relate to this story.  I don't think he did anything that isn't routine for his industry. 

Finally, this is a blog.  Although I think journalists should use good judgement in their blogs, I don't think that blogs are held to the same standards as articles.  They aren't (to my knowledge) reviewed by an editor and they aren't marketed as "news".  It's a relatively new media outlet so I think we still have much to learn here.

This is a legal case, but it is also a matter of public interest.  The outcome of this case could potentially impact the careers of IT workers across the globe in one way or another.  Of course Don should be talking about it.

If Infosys has some email that Jay sent out that backs their claims this is all for money - or some other evidence supporting their side of the argument they are free to make that public.  I'm sure Don would report that also.  I have no reason to believe such evidence exists, but if it does let's see it.  They called him a liar so they must be able to back that statement up, right?

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Aug 23, 2011 10:39 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to WE the People

>>"It might be a good time for you to get your affairs in order and quietly leave the USA before you're forced out. "

you're funny. First, try getting all those illegal immigrants who were protesting outside court and infront of police against the recent immigration bill.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:42 AM You may You may  says: in response to George Alexander

want to read the article...the whole case didn't went for trail....and answer to your question was there in the article

"The prosecutors do not say that she lied about what happened in the hotel room with Strauss-Kahn. Their judgment is narrower; because of her lies about other subjects, a jury would never believe her account of the events in question."

And as per www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/22/new.york.dsk.case/index.html

In the document, the district attorney's office notes that DNA testing indicated semen on her dress matched Strauss-Kahn and shows there was a sexual encounter. There was "no trauma to her body or oral cavity" and "scrapings from underneath her fingernails ... yielded no results."

And you are right..."Innocent until proven guilty. Not the other way round." but Don says otherway round that is the reason I got this story here.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:43 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to You seem

Did you noticed the difference....whenever Infosys feels the case is not worth pursuing (or will lose) they go for out of court settlement but that was not the case with Palmer...hmm..do they have something to smash this case...

Why haven't they counter sued him ? Let's see how this goes. So far Infosys is the one who has lost 3 court cases. I think the 4th discrimination case hasn't yet been decided.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:46 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to You may

>>In the document, the district attorney's office notes that DNA testing indicated semen on her dress matched Strauss-Kahn and shows there was a sexual encounter. There was "no trauma to her body or oral cavity" and "scrapings from underneath her fingernails ... yielded no results."

Defense lawyers stated that it was consensual.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:47 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

I'm not sure what the relevance of the DSK case to Infosys is... kind of like discussing the price of tea in China to use a hoary cliche. Don will (rightly) delete these posts. Irrelevant and off topic. They are not even the same kind of legal case. SO hardly anything of note. DSK is a jerk and got lucky here. His history is full of such cases. Note the Air France story, his own native country's premier airline...

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Aug 23, 2011 10:50 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

I agree.  I've read the names of each of the people Don cited several times - and even composed them in a response.  The only name I still remember is Dennis and I don't recall the last name (Jackson or something)... they are footnotes in a chapter of a much bigger case.

This whole thing about releasing those names is much ado about nothing.

A name many people will remember is Jay Palmer.  He has more on the line here than anyone else.  And if Mendelsohn (his attorney) wins the case he's going to be well known for going up against a giant. 

My hope is that they not only win their case, but more importantly that they win big.  The biggest problem is that violation of employment law rarely results in fair compensation.  Many attorneys won't touch these cases because they are hard to fight, corporations drag things on for years with appeals, and when they do win it is usually a moral victory - which doesn't keep the lights on.

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Aug 23, 2011 10:56 AM Did you Did you  says: in response to WE the People

woke up just now?

"The sleeping giant has awoken - WE THE PEOPLE are madder then hell and will make sure America stops outsourcing American jobs.  Wait until election day or sooner - you will hear our voice LOUD and CLEAR.  "

You guys want to learn from "Anna Hazare"...don't every wait for elections...it never work and won't work in future too...Elections are sponsored event by corporates...and elected people will work for them not for public. You have to yell when they are in the SEAT...

Whom you are referring as "sleeping giant"?

Don? Palmer? R.Lawson? HireAmerican? SealTeam6? Wakjob? Madagasper?.....

man total count not even reached two digits when unemployment is @ 9% and around 14million are without job....

Seriously I doubt Americans are 'Sleeping gaint' and if at all they are....they haven't woke-up yet....you may want to try really hard to wake them up. This many blogs about Infosys got only few people to turn up here for Americans...all I can say is...'God bless America'

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Aug 23, 2011 10:58 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Did you

There is something known as the "silent majority". You just might experience what they have to say.

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Aug 23, 2011 11:03 AM Unfortunately Unfortunately  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

you cannot YELL silently...

Even 'Anna Hazare'  needs to YELL loudly to turn public and government to him.

If those silent people can't even type few words in a blog..do you really want me to believe they are going to YELL with you....'God bless America'

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Aug 23, 2011 11:04 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to R. Lawson

Thanks, Roy-I think you have encapsulated what needs to be understood here very well. The chronology of this also needs to be understood: Mendelsohn only started releasing documents to me for publication after Infosys publicly branded Palmer as a liar. He made it clear, as I have reported, that he will continue releasing documents until Infosys apologizes for that. Mendelsohn's aim in releasing the documents is to show that Palmer is being truthful. Anyone who thinks that what has been released so far represents anything other than a tiny fraction of the evidence that Palmer and his attorney hold is being extremely nave. Finally, I can tell you that I have reached out to Infosys both directly and through its PR firm with requests to speak with someone from Infosys, and I was ignored on both fronts.

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Aug 23, 2011 11:05 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Unfortunately

Ah, I wouldn't worry about the yelling. In the words of Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick". We have our approaches here

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Aug 23, 2011 11:14 AM Yep Yep  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

continue your dream...thats how you will wake-up when it really gets bad...otherwise you never want to wake-up.

'God Bless America'

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Aug 23, 2011 11:16 AM I like I like  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

your approaches....seen them in past 2 decades....keep continue...will reach your goal in a century or two with the pace you are moving....great job....

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Aug 23, 2011 11:18 AM Did I not Did I not  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

say not worth pursuing (or will lose) the eason for not counter suing ? Man you really need to wake-up .

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Aug 23, 2011 11:51 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Don Tennant

I don't think Infosys has the PR expertise or glibness to respond to any direct questions. Right now I think they are busy retro-fitting explanations (as some in this thread have surmised about the fixed price project cover) to all their questionable contracts to prepare for the court case.

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Aug 23, 2011 11:52 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Don Tennant

What is the point in all this when the US government is supportive of these companies and their illegal practices? These companies are doing this because they know fully well they can get away with it.

The DA investigation etc are just lip service. And for us to discuss the issues here only give us the hope that something good will come out of all this, which simply prolongs the misery for us. Perhaps, we need to accept our fate and move on.

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Aug 23, 2011 12:25 PM I have I have  says: in response to R. Lawson

zero ties to Infosys..not even single share on Infosys.

And did anyone claimed Don is against India ? Against Infosys is not against India and Infosys is not India...hope you got that part clear.

"It's clear that some of the people posting here have close ties to Infosys or the outsourcing industry.  Everyone knows my bias (American IT worker slant), do you folks care to reveal yours?  Let's at least not pretend to be disinterested parties."

Don' is poor journalist not because of his reporting on Infosys but the way he reports on Infosys. Providing unrelated email pieces (not having/providing whole thread) with unnecessary details (employee names...who needs if that email sent to X or Y...all public needs is to level this communication happened) to project every employee is part of this fraud (but this blog doesn't prove any fraud)....

Blog title and the emails released doesn't go well...it is nothing but pure dirty journalism.

This is what troubling everyone...you read every comment with pre-conceived notion that whoever disagree with Don's has to be working in Infosys or close ties to Infosys.

When you say "American IT worker slant" means American citizens only right? According to you if a person working in IT without citizenship is not part of your 'IT worker slant'.

Here is what I defer from you...I am biased towards any employees no matter what field they work as long as they don't involve in any illegal activities. I don't read their race,color,visa or country of origin.

If you or Don have problem with the way a company runs keep the fight towards only to the company and keep every employees out of public view unless proven guilty. No country has 100% sane people to wait for court judgement..there are some who wants to prove their anger (on a company) by harming innocent public/employee.

You derived your notion based on your observation/reading in the comment section. I derived my notion based on Don's different blogs around Infosys. To me it is clear Don has no interest on keeping anyone's privacy other than people who agreed to feed his hunger (of anti-Infosys). If you don't feed him then you don't get any rights to ask for privacy.

Palmer case is in court and he has no rights to release evidence to 3rd party (here Don) and that 3rd party has no right to release it to public without providing reasonable privacy. If an Infosys employee calls him liar take that person to court or release all communication he had with him to public instead of releasing unrelated emails to public.

This particular blog has zero evidence to prove anything against Infosys...and Don tried to create his own version of story based on email pieces provided by Palmer's lawyer. If Don haven't seen all the evidence he has no way conclude what was the outcome of those emails and if he has those emails then he deliberately hidden from readers to make his point right.

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Aug 23, 2011 12:42 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to hireamerican

I suppose this is the "civil rights" struggle of the new millennium: protection of workers' rights. Sounds like something from the 19th century but like civil rights, it is an ongoing struggle and there is no easy victory.

There will be no statues of saviors or anthems in this saga. Just quiet plodding steps (some forward, some back) against a corrupt system.

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Aug 23, 2011 12:55 PM Finally you Finally you  says:

decided to break your silence on why you release those names.

And the reason you gave was "to make it impossible for Infosys to brand you as a liar"....

Seriously Don!!!! You think Infosys has no other work otherthan brand every one as a liar just because of this case?

And you decided to ditch thier privacy in the name of protection for your credibility?

How about if you used only their initials? Would that not fair for the employees and to you?

One question to you and Palmer....

These emails doesn't sound like something address to Palmer directly...and how did Palmer endup having those emails?

If it is not addressed to him directly on what basis he released those emails to you?

To me it looks like he intercepted communication between two people without their knowledge and released it to public without their approval. And it sounds like breach of employee responsiblity of keep all offical communication within office unless it is legally required to be released. Here it seems it requires (as per your point of view) to be released for personal (because Infosys employee called him liar) reason and there is no legal requirement.

"Beyond that, every one of those individuals was in a position to do something about the illegal activity, and all except Linda Manning failed to do anything. I am confident that Manning had no problem with me identifying her."

Again what is illegal in those email?

In 1st case

Do you want to say person in US on B1 is illegal ?

Do you want to say person applying for bank account is illegal when he  is on B1?

Do you want to say person didn't provide him proof of residence is illegal?

In 2nd Case

Do you want to say Infosys helped its employee to apply for SSN when he is on B1 (which is not that clear from the emails) ?

Do you want to say Infosys paid the employee without SSN?

Do you want to say Infosys didn't payed the resource on B1 is illegal?

Don, would you please clear everyone's doubt by list out illegal activities in those emails (please refrain within those emails..because as a readers we have only those emails to refer)....

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Aug 24, 2011 1:20 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Nope...

That works both ways... some who get an American citizenship do not want to part of the American society. Back in WWII German Americans and Japanese Americans joined the military to fight against their ancestral countries. Would these new citizens do the same ? There in lies the question about allegiance.

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Aug 24, 2011 1:44 AM azad azad  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

who told you they fought for free? everyone saved their ass. Joinning army has little relevance here.

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Aug 24, 2011 1:46 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

ummm, it didn't quite work "both ways" when 110,000 Japanese Americans were sent to War Relocation Camps in 1942. The legislation later passed in 1988 by congress under Regan said that the government actions were based on racial prejudice, war hysteria and a failure of political leadership.

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Aug 24, 2011 2:07 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores

>>The Americans are travelling to India to see the Taj Mahal. The Indians are travelling to America to steal the American's job before he gets back. Big difference

No Indian worker wants to "steal" anyone's job. And since when did you "own" a job??? That's the problem with some people - they think they're in it for life and never think they need to go up the value chain and keep themselves above the competition. In most cases, it's your american employer that choose someone else over you. Too bad. Take your beef with your American employer and with congress who you elected and who actually draft the laws of your country. Indian workers, like any other worker, just do their job and the only thing they worry about is whether they do it right and take the pains to do it within a legal framework (that's why they go through all the hooplas to get properly documented!).

You can't get more hypocritical and arrogant than this. Are Americans who work in other countries "stealing" jobs (forget the hundreds of thousands of troops who actually plundered, killed and maimed thousands of families)? Or how about the American workers who are in most gulf states for the oil after paying generous bribes to the monarchs and royal household members? What were regular Haliburton employees doing in Iraq and other gulf states?

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Aug 24, 2011 2:22 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to George Alexander

We Americans are not the winners of the hypocrisy and arrogance awards by any means. Telling us that the jobs in our country should be open to all is a position NO other country in the world takes when it comes to its own citizens. Now there's some hypocrisy.

The numbers of Americans working in other countries compared to the number of foreign workers working here is microscopic.

For decades now America has been giving away the store: giving away jobs, giving away entire industries, giving away access to technology we invented, and giving away OJT. And the effect on our economy is now obvious even to non-tech workers.

The whole world wants an American job, but America doesn't have enough jobs to satisfy the bottomless third world, not even if we fired every single American and replaced them with a foreigner.

Americans need to throw off the chains of PC culture and tell the foreign workers and the foreign worker wannabes who salivate at the though of an American job, where to go and what to do when they get there.

And I see no evidence that the Indian workers just want to get the job done. A big problem with the state of technology nowadays is that 'chalta hai' attitude that seems to be India's big contribution to the world. Take it back please.

The ONLY thing that is going to save America is to get Americans back to work. We've had floods of H-1Bs and other guestworker visas for over a decade now, look where it got us. Those of us who've lived through this storm can plainly see.

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Aug 24, 2011 2:39 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

Agreed that was a strange time. But Japanese Americans proved their patriotism at a time when they were faced with serious doubters in the US.

Right now you have people picking up citizenships who have no intention of in any way wanting to support American views.

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Aug 24, 2011 2:46 AM What is What is  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

American Views according to you? How many Americans (not immigrant turned American) agree to the views?

So you mean to say to be American you have to agree on certain thing no matter what?

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Aug 24, 2011 2:51 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to What is

I think it should be obvious to you what I meant here, i.e, people born here have no choice in their citizenship. People who become citizens do it of their free will while giving up their birth citizenship (in most cases) So  you make the decision to want to be American. So that implies to me anyway that you agree with the views that you swear to when you raise your hand during the citizenship ceremony.

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Aug 24, 2011 2:58 AM Su Su  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

On that sentiment I can say yes they are that way.

Most of the indians who are americans or even british indians - they are very much particular about that identity. They try to be more americans and they are more vocal on stopping inflow of more indians here in US. Which is bad - I know I'll be thrashed for this but yes americans are 10 times more patriotic than indians. "Not becoming american" is totally cultural thing which "you" are deciding because they look different culturally from you so you are assuming they are not americans. Similar way chinese people run their own chinatown every where and you might think that is not america - but it is not true.

However fighting war is different thing. The indians who came here are not those who just took a ship and came to america. They did not come here with certain class of H1 or L1 jobs. What they did in those days won't ever happen with this class of immigrants. Were those German Americans and Japanese Americans very much accomplished and established persons in their own country and just came america on idelogy to fight for america and support this country? People who landed here hundreds years back where different class of people from their respective countries.

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Aug 24, 2011 3:04 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores

Don't blame people who play by the rules, pay the fees and go through all the hooplas that your government created in the first place.And more arrogance by blaming H1bs and guestworkers for all your problems when they form a miniscule population of the workforce.

>>"For decades now America has been giving away the store:giving away jobs, giving away entire industries, giving away access to technology we invented, and giving away OJT.And the effect on our economy is now obvious even to non-tech workers."

Totally false.American corporations and the government haven't been "giving away" anything for free.They do it for purely profit driven motives.Who're you trying to kid over here?The more you show how righteous your corporations and government's actions are, the more the hypocrisy oozes out.

>>"The numbers of Americans working in other countries compared to the number of foreign workers working here is microscopic."

Totally false again.I've see them everywhere in my travels especially in gulf countries where they are close to being hated if not simply hated.What are your big oil, military and pharma corporations doing there?

>>"And I see no evidence that the Indian workers just want to get the job done.A big problem with the state of technology nowadays is that 'chalta hai' attitude that seems to be India's big contribution to the world.Take it back please."

Difference of opinion but it doesn't matter what you or I think on this but what the employer who actually pays for the services thinks.So a better gauge would be the employer.And by the looks of it, hmmm, they still keep hiring them don't they?

>>The ONLY thing that is going to save America is to get Americans back to work.

That's probably the only thing I agree with you.Please work with your governments to cancel or limit the visa worker programs so less people will be brought it.Until then, don't blame foreigners who play by the rules.

But another moot point is that there are plenty over plenty of IT jobs out there in every major business district and you can find it any jobsite - monster, jobsindeed, simplyhired, careerbuilders.Why aren't these Americans getting these jobs???Why are they still whining???That will answer a lot of questions for you.I'll take a leaf from Joel Spolsky (hope you know who he is):

"Yes, there are a bunch of out of work IT people making a lot of noise about how long they've been out of work, but you know what?At the risk of pissing them off, really good programmers do have jobs."

Quoting the rest from Joel's post:

"

Stop worrying about all the jobs going to India.

Well, OK, first of all, if you're already in India, you never really had to worry about this, so don't even start worrying about all the jobs going to India.They're wonderful jobs, enjoy them in good health.

But I keep hearing that enrollment in CS departments is dropping perilously, and one reason I hear for it is "students are afraid to go into a field where all the jobs are going to India." That's so wrong for so many reasons.First, trying to choose a career based on a current business fad is foolish.Second, programming is incredibly good training for all kinds of fabulously interesting jobs, such as business process engineering, even if every single programming job does go to India and China. Reply

Aug 24, 2011 3:04 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores
Third, and trust me on this, there's still an incredible shortage of the really good programmers, here and in India.Yes, there are a bunch of out of work IT people making a lot of noise about how long they've been out of work, but you know what?At the risk of pissing them off, really good programmers do have jobs.Fourth, you got any better ideas?What are you going to do, major in History?Then you'll have no choice but to go to law school.And there's one thing I do know:99% of working lawyers hate their jobs, hate every waking minute of it, and they're working 90 hour weeks, too.Like I said:if you love to program computers, count your blessings:you are in a very fortunate minority of people who can make a great living doing work they love.

Anyway, I don't think students really think about this.The drop in CS enrollment is merely a resumption of historically normal levels after a big bubble in enrollment caused by dotcom mania.That bubble consisted of people who didn't really like programming but thought the sexy high paid jobs and the chances to IPO at age 24 were to be found in the CS department.Those people, thankfully, are long gone"

source:www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CollegeAdvice.html

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Aug 24, 2011 3:16 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Now everyone

The ignorance of American law and the acquiescence to corruption among foreigners is just amazing. None of them have picked up on the fact that the case against Infosys is not in criminal court. It's a civil matter. There, the rules of evidence are different. All those protections for the accused they cite only apply in criminal matters. This isn't India.

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Aug 24, 2011 3:21 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to What is

Please follow our reader comment protocol and choose one name to be entered into the Name field every time you post. Do not ignore the fields we have provided and begin the text of your post in the Name field.

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Aug 24, 2011 3:22 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to George Alexander

Bad news for Joel: most IT people are not programmers. But that's beside the point. I've seen ads for jobs located in American cities, jobs like Windows system admin, desktop support, project manager, database admin, etc. But they weren't advertised in any American publication. They were posted by Indian staffing firms, in the Indian press, recruiting for these jobs. Any one of these jobs, posted in any American metropolitan area, would have generated between 100-300 qualified applicants. Jobs in America are being shunted away from American applicants in many ways.

An American should not have to beat out the entire third world to get a job and support himself in his own damn country. We were doing GREAT in IT, engineering, and all other technologies before we opened the floodgates. We went to the moon. Under the weight of the foreign wannabes, we gave up most of our space program.

It's standard practice to claim that Americans who lose jobs are somehow defective, but we all know the real reason for their misery. Alan Greenspan let the cat out of the bag a few years ago and his quotes are easy to find.

I consider the Indians to be accessories after the fact and guilty of theft by receiving. They are not innocent.

The alphabet soup of superfluous guestworker visas have been nothing but OJT for the rest of the world. By now, it's not just jobs that have been stolen, it's entire career paths. Growth assignments, learning opportunities, the chance to mature in their profession - purloined by the third world, with the help of our greedy, ignorant, corporate-owned government.

The workers you defend are not innocent, not harmless, and not nice (one the mask of politeness slips).

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Aug 24, 2011 3:50 AM chm chm  says: in response to Dolores

It will be so difficult to explain you why individual indians are not guilty of theft and they are kind of innocent and they have no intension to destroy america or harm you any way. Is it creating pain in 'your' (a certain class) back? May be true.

You are just like an extremist who won't ever understand any argument ever. This is the reason extremist terrorists are gunned down - no one tries to correct them because it will be useless effort. In this context I think whoever understood you just ignores you and you won't ever acheive what you want but no point make you understand that. 

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Aug 24, 2011 3:56 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Dolores

I doubt Americans are really looking for job at right place (in bad times jobs won't be there where you want to work).

I live in VA and I always refer vawc.virginia.gov for current jobs and market condition.

Area: Fairfax County     

Potential Candidates looking for work as Software Developers, Systems Software = 80

Job Openings for Software Developers, Systems Software =1,268     

Potential Candidates per Job Opening for Software Developers, Systems Software =0.06

Area: Loudoun County

Potential Candidates looking for work as Software Developers, Systems Software = 67

Job Openings for Software Developers, Systems Software =356     

Potential Candidates per Job Opening for Software Developers, Systems Software =0.19

Area:Arlington County

Potential Candidates looking for work as Software Developers, Systems Software = 64

Job Openings for Software Developers, Systems Software =203     

Potential Candidates per Job Opening for Software Developers, Systems Software =0.32

Area:Alexandria City     

Potential Candidates looking for work as Software Developers, Systems Software = 62

Job Openings for Software Developers, Systems Software =84     

Potential Candidates per Job Opening for Software Developers, Systems Software =0.74

I am not cooking those number...so better get to the job site and verify by yourself.

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Aug 24, 2011 3:57 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores

>>"I've seen ads for jobs located in American cities, jobs like Windows system admin, desktop support, project manager, database admin, etc.But they weren't advertised in any American publication.They were posted by Indian staffing firms, in the Indian press, recruiting for these jobs."

So what if they were posted in "Indian" staffing firms???The fact of the matter is, there are plenty in other job sites if not the same jobs and you can find them even now by checking monster, jobsindeed, simplyhired, careerbuilders to name a few.Anyone can go and check right now.Why aren't they being filled?ah yes!It's the H1bs fault.But wait, all of them state that sponsorship WILL NOT be processed.Ah!So why aren't these american's getting these jobs???Why???Why aren't any of those "100-300" applicants getting them???

>>"Any one of these jobs, posted in any American metropolitan area, would have generated between 100-300 qualified applicants.Jobs in America are being shunted away from American applicants in many ways."

This is another serious flaw with your thinking.Just because someone applies does not mean they are automatically hirable.Do you know how many "senior software develoeprs" I've seen that can't even write a simple algorithm that's taught in highschools?Ask any tech lead or project manager today and they will tell you how much of the applicants are simply chaff that need to be sifted out.I'm really moved to think that you do not know the industry you're talking about.And it is total nonsense that all these job sites are "shunting" American workers.Please go to them and many of them will state explicitly that H1Bs and those requiring sponsership WILL NOT be entertained (and why should they when they have worry about the crazy documentation processes, legal fees and over 10,000 USD expenses for a simple hire???).I'm really starting to think that you are simply one of those parrots who keep harping the same ol stuff from Lou Dobbs without actually going and checking the facts.

>>"An American should not have to beat out the entire third world to get a job and support himself in his own damn country."

I know, sounds bad.I personally wouldn't like it if I were you either.But times have changed since the 70s when globalization was pushed down the throat of third world countries.And, the internet has broken down these barriers.There are no borders once you are on the internet.I'm really amazed that you have to worry about competition when that is the norm.Do you know that Indian companies are setting up shop in cheaper destinations like Srilanka, China and other east asian countries?Yes, everyone will compete globally.Why did it take this long to realize?I'm ready for it.That's why I've studied myself to death burning both sides of the midnight oil, coming to work with a paste and toothbrush and sleeping in the office when I started my career.I don't care if all the jobs get offshored because like Joel Spolsky, I know exactly what the industry's potential is and what the offshore model cannot do.Most of the people who I've seen complain are really not meant to be in this industry and are here only to make the money - not because they have any passion for it.They don't upgrade their skills and think they have some retirement plan going on until a vendor (most probably an indian company if not an American one) pops in and takes over the processes, ramping up inefficiencies, upgrading technologies and closing gaps (I've seen that happen a couple of times - people who own the department running 10 year old processes and technologies). Reply

Aug 24, 2011 3:57 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores
And that's what it takes to stay on top.If people don't realize this, they will get weeded out in this super competitive global environment.

>>I consider the Indians to be accessories after the fact and guilty of theft by receiving.They are not innocent.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts.

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Aug 24, 2011 4:03 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to George Alexander

You forget that a lot of the job ads that Americans are allowed to see are fake for one reason or another.

1. Multiple postings of the same job by contingent recruiters, each one hoping to fill the job.

2. PERM ads written to justify keeping an H-1B that is already on the job. It's not a real opening, just worded as if it is.

3. Jobs posted to gather resumes by a staffing firm.

4. Jobs posted where the employer gets cold feet about hiring. I've gotten about six of these in the last few months.

5. "Purple squirrel" jobs. More than one job smushed into one, or a ridiculous laundry list of 'requirements that look like alphabet soup.

You can't just go by the number of ads. That's naive. There are nowhere near the number of open jobs that you claim.

And yes, this is our country and citizens are a protected class, legally, when it comes to having first shot at jobs. The fact that nobody has cared enough to enforce this doesn't change that. We simply cannot let America be overrun by the third world and their fanciful resumes and still have an America. The only thing that will save America is to get Americans back to work. The only thing.

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Aug 24, 2011 4:20 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Dolores

It seems you never want to apply for any job, you gave laundry list of reason for the ads...

Then how do you think companies can hire Americans...just give your laundry list of how American really look for job.

"You forget that a lot of the job ads that Americans are allowed to see are fake for one reason or another. "

Without even applying for the position how do you know those are fake...

"1. Multiple postings of the same job by contingent recruiters, each one hoping to fill the job."

So you won't apply if it is multiple postings...companies want to use recruiters to shift the responsibility of short listing hundreds of resume. Now you won't even consider those jobs because they are fake.

"2. PERM ads written to justify keeping an H-1B that is already on the job. It's not a real opening, just worded as if it is."

How do you identify that job is for PERM ads?...oh...you just assume right ?

What would happen if at all you applied for those jobs?

"3. Jobs posted to gather resumes by a staffing firm."

So you don't want staffing firm to have your resume...wait a minute...is it not one way to land in a job!!!...oh wait...you don't trust them so won't apply for a job through them.

"4. Jobs posted where the employer gets cold feet about hiring. I've gotten about six of these in the last few months. "

How do you identify those ads? And you won't trust the job post by employer itself....come-on what else an employer can do to get your resume and hire you....

"5. "Purple squirrel" jobs. More than one job smushed into one, or a ridiculous laundry list of 'requirements that look like alphabet soup. "

And you won't apply for those jobs which requires to put extra effort to earn it...oh wait...you want a job which is just 9 -5 and has no tension...provides $100k+/yr + 5weeks vacation per year and the requirement should not be more than two or three lines of requirement.

You are fine without job but won't apply for any job which you feel fake...or which requires really hard working...but you put the blame on immigrants for all this....

No way your can get a job with this laundry list of where not to apply or for what jobs not to apply...

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Aug 24, 2011 4:31 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

It is basic netiquette to use one handle in a thread to ensure that your posts are not confused with someone else's posts. Has been that way for almost 20 years. Or are you not aware of that ?

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Aug 24, 2011 4:47 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to ITJob

What gave you the idea that Americans aren't applying for the jobs? That's a big part of how we learn they are fake. Typical foreigner, all you can do is blame the American victim of globalism. Why is foreign reading comprehension of English so poor?

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Aug 24, 2011 4:48 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Personally I don't care. You just seem inept and inexperienced in basic communication.  Wonder if you change lanes in traffic too without indicating. Wouldn't be surprised.

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Aug 24, 2011 4:52 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores

Dolores,

After reading your list of reasons on why NOT to apply for job on a job site, I'm sorry to say but I'm not surprised if you find it hard to get an IT job. It's really not that hard to get a job in IT if someone really looks for them and has what it takes.

I'm an architect and know many junior to senior level developers and architects because of I regularly go to local user groups and encourage anyone and everyone from college kids to project managers I know to go there (that's church service for all you IT guys who are really interested in staying on top). These people have no problems finding new jobs and get phone called regularly.

I know independent IT recruiters and lots of other IT folk too and many of them reach out to me for good contacts. I will scoff at anyone who tells me that there are no jobs out there because I know this industry pretty well... atleast in the North East and South (Texas, Florida) area where I frequent.

FYI, CleverDevices based in New York is looking for real good Java and C# developers and are on a hiring spree since the beginning of the year because they bagged some big projects. They can't find good Java developers and are willing to hire college graduates with a good GPA, train them up and are now even thinking of opening up to good H1bs.

>>You can't just go by the number of ads. That's naive. There are nowhere near the number of open jobs that you claim.

I'm starting to build a profile here of the entitlement generation. Do you know that many of the openings are directly from companies that DO NOT allow third parties and recruiters to intervene? They state that explicitly in their ads. You would have known that if you searched properly.

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Aug 24, 2011 5:07 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to George Alexander

BTW, I'm starting to get quite a few requests for developer referrals (I run a user group so recruiters contact me frequently).  If anyone is in Florida or willing to move here (Tampa/Lakeland/Orlando) let me know.  I primarily get jobs related to .Net, SQL, ASP.Net, and related technologies.

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Aug 24, 2011 5:15 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says:

I insist. Any comments you post that do not abide by that protocol will be deleted.

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Aug 24, 2011 5:19 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says:

Dolores,

Congrats if you are a finalist for a couple of IT jobs and that is impressive. I wish you well. Your previous post looked like your making excuses for not applying for jobs on job sites. My experience and experience I have seen from others is quite the opposite.

You may be correct about body shops run by Indians. Recently a few of them were closed after investigation leading to tighter visa rules. All body shops that run shady businesses and take advantage of loops holes should be snuffed out.

I encourage people who are looking for jobs to establish relationships with recruiters and let them know that you are in the market. I hear from many people that recruiters play a double game. But my experiences are to the contrary. I know a handful few of them (along with HR people from companies) personally and if most are like them, they are get paid for filling a position and having a succesful applicant stay there for a few months. All of them tell me that they have a hard job - getting a position filled is not an easy thing because there are a host of variable parameters that lead to a successful fill.

Regards,

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Aug 24, 2011 5:50 AM ITJob ITJob  says:

No company wants to hire H1 anymore. It is invitation for unnecessary troubles (in the name of fed agencies) and expensive with guarantee of ROI.

Even the company I work now won't recruit H1 unless they really not able to get a person who doesn't require sponsorship. It is quite expensive to hire and maintain H1 resource with the tons of issues associated with the visa.

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Aug 24, 2011 5:51 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to ITJob

I mean 'with no guarantee of ROI'

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Aug 24, 2011 6:06 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Snipes went to jail because he hooked up with tax scam artist Eddie Kahn who erroneously told him to file returns claiming the IRS should refund millions for prior years which he had already filed for. Then Snipes signed those returns under penalty of perjury. When you sign a return you are swearing under oath that you owe the tax. Snipes went to jail for filing false returns, which he did.

As for the legal requirement to file the law says you have to file for any tax you are liable for. Can you provide the IRS code section that creates the liability for taxes on individual private income?

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Aug 24, 2011 6:20 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Dolores

The case in court may be civil but the feds hace a criminal investigation going...

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Aug 24, 2011 6:21 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

Since when does Obama have the authority to circumvent law? Is he a dictator?

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Aug 24, 2011 7:04 AM ITJob ITJob  says:

You could find jobs that to 5 IT jobs...

Lawson get quite a few request (I hope atleast 5+)

Company I work have 25+ opening (some for future projects)...

George can get job....

In about 5 - 7 people who comment here 4 people could find job (more than 1)...then why keep complaining there is no job in IT and no job available for Americans.

I feel either people don't want to find job and happy with government providing unemployment benefit for more than 99weeks or not looking at right place.

Adding to that it seems 30% of those claimed unemployment benefit were decided to swindle government...

Free money never solve any unemployment problem..sometime free money is what makes people to try hard in finding job.

finance.yahoo.com/news/States-cracks-down-on-apf-3091316844.html?x=0

" A nationwide crackdown is coming for people fraudulently drawing unemployment payments -- those who were never eligible and workers who keep getting checks after they return to work -- a $17 billion benefits swindle last year alone, say federal officials."

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Aug 24, 2011 7:06 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to ITJob

I intend to say

"Free money never solve any unemployment problem..sometime free money is what makes people not to try hard in finding job."

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Aug 24, 2011 7:24 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Did you

"Seriously I doubt Americans are 'Sleeping gaint' and if at all they are...."

When their cable service starts getting disconnected and they are going through Snookie withdrawal, they'll wake up.  (that's a reality tv reference for those not sure what I'm talking about)

I cut the plug on cable television 3 years ago.  Wasn't a financial decision - more like a decision to restore sanity to my house.  Best thing I ever did. 

Now I find the news, the news doesn't find me.  The absolute worst place to learn about world events is on television.  The video footage makes a good subsidy, but the information presented just scratches the surface.

Question for the guys in India - how many television channels do you have in major markets?  Do most people have cable TV or satellite and hundreds of channels - or do most people use an antennae and pickup whats on the airwaves?

I don't think America could have an "Anna Hazare" moment because we are so distracted with the crap on TV. 

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Aug 24, 2011 8:24 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to George Alexander

How would YOU feel if you were forced to train YOUR replacement from China or Vietnam on YOUR job in order to get your severance check? 

India, unlike the USA, takes better care of its citizens when it comes to things like this.

It is NOT ARROGANT  to be angry and frustrated that despite work hard, stay current with technology,  contribute to your community and your company, pay your taxes and your dues -- and despite this, get replaced by a younger, cheaper foreign citizen.    

The American citizens forced to train you before losing their jobs have earned the right to be treated with respect.  

It is NOT HYPOCRITICAL  to worry about the ability to feed your family and keep your home.  This is reality.

It is a privilege, NOT a right for non-immigrant temporary guest workers  to work in the USA.  

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Aug 24, 2011 8:27 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to ITJob

This is America. The purpose of unemployment compensation is to keep families and individuals from having to sleep on sidewalks or in parks, and to keep them from starving. We frown on that sort of thing. It also helps the economy when bills get paid and groceries get bought. We care about that.

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Aug 24, 2011 8:58 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Wakjob

He most certainly is getting away with it......while the Americans indulge in bar hopping and in buying cheap Chinese goods.

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Aug 24, 2011 9:11 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Dolores

Not to mention - Americans PAY for Unemployment Insurance through payroll deductions. 

This isn't welfare, its a system set up for Americans to take care of Americans.    I certainly don't think anyone who dreamed up this system would envision it being so necessary due to visa fraud and abuse.

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Aug 24, 2011 9:48 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Jobs4US

It is paid by everyone working in US no matter what visa (most visa holder are not eligible for this insurance) you are in. When anyone gets even $1 salary in US has to pay tha UI tax.

You seem to push one point agenda of every unemployment created in US is because of Visa fraud and abuse which is not quite true.

Just because I pay for car insurance I don't get right to fraud the insurance company same applies to any insurance. 30% or $17billion is way high than any fraud at this point.

If it stays within the limited months of benefit (6 months) it is from what everyone paid for...the moment it crosses the limit then it becomes welfare and at that point any person who received unemployment benefit is in welfare and any fraud is not acceptable because at the end someone else has to pay for it later.

Fraud punishment should not come with discrimination...

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Aug 24, 2011 10:04 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Wakjob

Hmmmm...I don't think anything is going to come out of the criminal investigation. It's lip service and to wipe our tears, nothing else.

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Aug 24, 2011 10:17 AM Information Information  says: in response to hireamerican

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/US-issues-5-lakh-non-immigration-visas-to-Indians-every-year/articleshow/9714031.cms

0.8 million American travel to India compared to just 0.5 Indians coming to America every year.

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Aug 24, 2011 10:18 AM Information Information  says: in response to Information

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/US-issues-5-lakh-non-immigration-visas-to-Indians-every-year/articleshow/9714031.cms

0.8 million American travel to India compared to just 0.5 million Indians coming to America every year.

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Aug 24, 2011 10:34 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Information

That's an interesting statistic.  More useful would be the nature of the visits meaning business, education, or pleasure and how each country defines "non-immigrant visa".  There isn't enough information there to form any conclusion.

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Aug 24, 2011 11:28 AM AmericanCorpGreed AmericanCorpGreed  says: in response to Jobs4US

"I certainly don't think anyone who dreamed up this system would envision it being so necessary due to visa fraud and abuse. "

It was not become necessary because of Visa fraud and abuse, it was because of American Corporate Greed.

Whole issue started when American started 2 wars which were not funded.

Continued with housing bubble, started by American banks which gave loan for any person in US even if he/she has zero chance to pay the loan...all in the belief of flipping the house for higher price and make quick buck. Whole bubble was created and operated successfully by Americans and for Americans.

Most loans was guaranteed by government backed agency (FMac and FMae) which indirectly paid by Americans....what a game American played you can see with Housing bubble.

Once housing bubble got realized everyone got scared and pulled every string possible to stop it...but they pulled in so much hurry it created more deficits and more problems.

Many banks failed and insurance company got to pay huge money.

Americans didn't stopped right there...went on and created a TARP program with $1Trillion (from air) and distributed mostly to same financial institutions which created this whole mess. Some part given for public to play with, in the name of First Time Home buyer program where even a 4year old kid got $8000 for buying a home (as usual from air....abcnews.go.com/WN/Politics/time-homebuyer-tax-credit-program-subjected-fraud/story?id=8890655) and some paid as extended unemployment benefit and some paid for Cash for Clunkers etc.,

On top of that Decided to give tax break for Super rich because they are the only saviors who can create jobs...(wait a minute...is this tax break was there all the time unemployment went from 4.6% to 10.1%....who cares...just give the break for rich...they are starving for food) they claimed any increase in tax for rich will increase unemployment.

Did America stopped there...nope...they kept extending unemployment benefit (which is the only good thing America did for Americans) for 99weeks...even there Americans enjoyed more than they are supposed to ...there is no stop for greed.

Did America stopped there...nope...continued their war (indirectly now...) in all Middle East countries.

All this mess were created and enjoyed by Americans for Americans there is no role for any work visa holders in any of those big mess. Other than paying their part of tax (SS & Medicare) where they are not eligible to enjoy any security it supposed to give.

And shamelessly you decided to claim every mess America currently in is because of visa fraud and abuse€.keep continue the lie€keep blaming every mess you do on work visa holders€which is not going to solve your unemployment problem anyway. You have every right to says stop the visa program and fraud and abuse but blamming everything on visa program is childish.

Buy the way when you say Unemployment Insurance is paid by everyone...is it not supposed to be paid to every participant? So far work visa holders contributed billions in SS & Medicare but they are not eligible for the benefit.

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Aug 24, 2011 11:43 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Information

The Americans are travelling to India to see the Taj Mahal. The Indians are travelling to America to steal the American's job before he gets back. Big difference.

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Aug 24, 2011 12:01 PM Madagasper Madagasper  says: in response to Dolores

Most of the "Americans" traveling to India are Indians who have acquired American citizenship.

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Aug 24, 2011 12:10 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

The British Government seems to have got something moving:

Under bribery Law, UK to prosecute Indian companies even if their arms fail elsewhere

The Indian companies which have business relations with Britain, raise finance or have subsidiaries there, will soon find themselves prosecutable under the new British Bribery Act which came into effect on July 1 in place of the old Victorian law.

A firm headquartered in India will find itself answerable to the British Serious Frauds Office (SFO) even if any of its arms in any other country had indulged in bribery or any corrupt practices, and if this resulted in loss of business to British companies or interests.

The law provides that the English prosecutors can proceed against an Indian firm that has a branch in Britain for something that it has done outside, say in Indonesia, Africa, or anywhere else in the world, she said. The Act brings companies operating in England to criminal liability, punishable by 10 years' imprisonment and hefty fine for failing to prevent bribery. Besides, firms would need to put in place mechanisms to prevent malpractices.

For, under the Act, failure to do so would mean that there would be no possibility of a defence if the SFO takes action against the firm, he said. Several large Indian companies like the Tata Group, Infosys, Essar Group have operations in Britain.

articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-08-08/news/29864488_1_indian-companies-public-relations-firms-indian-firm

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Aug 24, 2011 12:15 PM But But  says: in response to Madagasper

then all of them are migrated and acquired American citizenship. An american is an american no matter from where he migrated!

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Aug 24, 2011 12:19 PM Do you Do you  says: in response to Madagasper

sit in any official position to claim this?

No more than 0.2 million (7% of 140k/year) could have become US citizen in past 2 decades if at all every single person got GC applies for Citizenship, also not all 0.2 million go to India every year.

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Aug 24, 2011 12:27 PM Nope... Nope...  says: in response to But

not all agree that you are American after getting Citizenship....no matter how many centuries you are here....you are not American for some.

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Aug 25, 2011 1:02 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to AmericanCorpGreed

I believe you are a troll trying to provoke people. 

You misinterpreted and twisted my comment  to feed your need to show the world that you know you are smarter than everyone else in the room.  

If you dislike American citizens and our country why don't you leave?

Fellow readers, please do not feed this troll... ignore him and let this be the final word.

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Aug 25, 2011 3:17 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to AmericanCorpGreed

It is not true that all guestworkers are unable to collect unemployment benefits. If they have an adjustment of status filed and are on EAD and get laid off, some of them are filing for unemployment and collecting. I've read them talking about this on their boards.

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Aug 25, 2011 4:41 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Well, India should know all about business visa abuse!

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Aug 25, 2011 9:02 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Something interesting about India's own tough stance on business visas:

India Stops Business Visas for Chinese Nationals

Toughening its stance on China's export of unskilled and semi-skilled labor to India, the Indian government has stopped issuing business visas to mainland Chinese nationals Home Minister P. Chidambaram said on Thursday.

China has been sending tens of thousands of workers to India, ostensibly on "business trips," but in reality engaging them as employees on construction sites and in Chinese-owned factories India asserts. The practice breaks India's visa regulations, labor law and also does away with the need for the Chinese employer to pay the mandatory welfare fees that would otherwise be due in China.

www.2point6billion.com/news/2009/10/16/india-stops-business-visas-for-chinese-nationals-2601.html

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Aug 25, 2011 12:43 PM jobs4US jobs4US  says: in response to ITJob

"It is paid by everyone working in US no matter what visa (most visa holder are not eligible for this insurance) you are in. When anyone gets even $1 salary in US has to pay tha UI tax."

This is the cost of doing business in the USA.

Do you like US roads, hospitals, universities, libraries, national parks? If so thank an American.

My question - (I assume you are a guest worker from India)
,  how would YOU feel if YOU were replaced from your job in your own country by a younger, less qualified, foreign citizen from China or Vietnam?

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Aug 27, 2011 12:28 PM BSOD BSOD  says:

foreigners should have the necessarily documents to prove that they are not illegal  alien.

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Jan 6, 2012 10:00 AM Neeraj Neeraj  says: in response to Dolores

My sympathies are with those americans who have lost their livelihoods due to the acts(of course Greedy acts) of the American Corporates, who brought in IT Guest workers (let's be specific here it's only about Indian Citizens).

You may whine and cry but your corporations and governments are not ready to STOP this. I guess you guys should outrightly STOP employing Indians. For that matter even Mexicans, Pacific Islanders, Pakistanis, Afghans, Arabs, Philipinos, Ukrainians, Georgians, Russians, Easter Europeans and all other nationals who are employed to do the Dull, Dangerous and Dirty jobs within the U.S of A.

Insulate yourselves but go ahead and Invade the whole EARTH and proclaim every RESOURCE that SHE has as yours. Dehumanize other cultures and nationalities and grow within the confines of your land - projects like "Joshua Projects".

Defraud other people's currencies and Raid other people's commodities by employing "smart" people like Geogre Soros & Marc Faber.

Kill, Rape, Maim, Steal and Beggar your neighbours (but not the English/Brits, Germans & Swedes since you are their far cousins).

And after doing ALL this (and STILL continuing to do ALL this), cry and whine that your Cushy jobs and your "Way of Life" and your "Liberty" and your "Pursuit of Happiness" have been dealt a hard blow.

What a pity......What a pity......

There is an old saying which says "What goes around come around".

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Jan 6, 2012 10:13 AM Neeraj Neeraj  says: in response to Neeraj

And let me make this clear to ALL the White displaced American IT whiners here (no use being politically correct, let me call the spade by it's name):

ALL these things that your Governments and Corporates are giving away (including your jobs) are the COST for doing BUSINESS with the other countries.

POWER & MONEY don't go together. Every Empire knew about it and the American Empire is no exception. IF the American Empire WANTED Power then it had to dispense some favours to others.

First it was the Europeans to whom the Empire gave the Money (Why was Airbus created) so that they acknowledge AMERICA as the EMPIRE.

Next it was the Chinese (Nixon loved them) and thus went the Manufacturing Industry.

And now it's Services game to the Indians and probably to others.

All you american IT whiners, understand this stark truth about WHERE you are living and WHAT you are associated with. You are the Citizens of an EMPIRE (probably it's a bit Wobbly now but there seems to be no replacement or challenger in sight as yet).

In the process if you are getting jacked, please talk to your EMPIRE builders and get things fixed.

Don't whine and Cry.

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Jun 12, 2012 2:27 AM Deepak Deepak  says:

Business Immigration Visa assists businessmen and investors (High Net-worth Individuals/HNIs), residing in any part of the world, willing to make an investment in a foreign country and at the same time wanting to obtain residency/permanent immigration of that country.

visit businessimmigrationvisa.com/ for details

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