Infosys' Ultimate Slap in the Face to the U.S. Government

Don Tennant

In an almost incomprehensible display of hypocrisy at a time when a multi-agency U.S. government investigative force is in the final stages of gathering and processing damning evidence of criminal behavior on the part of Infosys and a number of its employees, a top Infosys executive is speaking publicly about the exemplary nature of the company's business ethics and the strength of its "value system."

 

A Feb. 13 article on India's Business Standard website, titled "Investing in an Ethical Corporate Culture," includes a contribution on ethical corporate behavior from Infosys co-founder, co-chairman and former CEO Kris Gopalakrishnan. It was under Gopalakrishnan's watch as CEO that Infosys employee and whistleblower Jay Palmer was harassed and retaliated against for using the company's established internal mechanism to report the rampant visa and tax fraud he discovered, and under which the culture of violating U.S. visa and tax laws flourished. So Gopalakrishnan's self-righteous preaching on corporate ethics could not have been more distasteful. Consider this excerpt from his sermon:

We at Infosys, strongly believe that corporate governance is not just a "compliance" matter, instead is integral to our value system. In my view, effective corporate governance enhances competitive advantage of a corporation in the long term. Management in corporations with good governance understand that they are merely trustees managing the affairs of the company in the best interests of all the stakeholders. At Infosys, we have consistently followed highest level of disclosure to stakeholders, both financial and non-financial, so as to minimise asymmetry of information between stakeholders and management. We follow the adage "when in doubt, disclose. While percolating good governance across the corporation, it is important to focus on enhancing the ethical judgment of employees, managers and executive board members, in the same way that they focus on developing technical and skill-based competencies. Organisations with good governance recognise and realise that it is their people, not regulations, that run the company and the measure of success in this area is the sum total of several day-to-day decisions taken by the management and employees at every level. At Infosys, senior management regularly conducts value workshops to reinforce ethical conduct. Consequences of non-compliance is explicitly made known to every employee joining the company. It has been rightly said that the "tone" of good governance is set right at the top and flows all the way down the organisation leaving no one out -- from chairman to doorman! Long-term sustainable growth is all about a commitment to values and ethical business conduct. It encompasses laws, regulations, processes and practices affecting the way a corporation is directed, administered, controlled and managed.

If that were the absolute epitome of blatant, shameless two-facedness, the pice de resistance was Gopalakrishnan's conclusion:

Longevity of a corporation depends on the faith of its stakeholders in the governance practices. Good performance, not combined with good governance, will not be palatable to the investing community. Employees will think twice before joining companies which don't have good governance practices. Customers will shy away from companies that don't follow the rules. Society will not respect companies which don't follow the best practices. Only those companies that earn respect from all stakeholders will survive in the long run.

So I have a suggestion for Gopalakrishnan and his cronies. As U.S. government officials deliberate on what measures to take against Infosys, and whether to indict certain individuals within the company, the senior management team would be very well advised to demonstrate a little humility and remorse, and to tone down the presentation of that nauseating ethical faade for a while. The combination of arrogance, hypocrisy, dissemblance and denial that Infosys continues to display is a slap in the face to the U.S. government, and, by extension, to the people of this country. Call it a hunch, but I think the feds might be getting a little fed up.



Add Comment      Leave a comment on this blog post
Feb 13, 2012 9:17 AM Truth Truth  says:

Hi Don,

           Thanks for enlightening us on these Infosys Scamsters. These guys are Crooks to the core. This company should be shut down and its 15000 Employees kicked out from America. The same goes with all the Indians IT Majors like TCS, Wipro, Cognizant and so on.

This H1B Scam on America has to be stopped ASAP with a Moratorium on Work Visas for Ten Years. This nonsense called the H1B has gone on far too long.

While Millions of our citizens are without work and finding it hard to make ends meet, it is pathetic to see Crooks from India dictate terms to us. It is way beyond time for the Government to stop all these Work Visas. Around 400,000 Visas are being issued a year, counting the H1B, L1, J1, J2 and so on.

As long as there are people in the Congress and Senate who are being bribed by the top Indian companies, things are not gonna change. The Leftist Media is not helping in any way either.

It is time the common citizens of America stood up and stop this scam going on, by all and any means. How much do we as a society, have to put up, to find work in our own land?  How long are we going to be dictated to, by foreign scamsters, who have no shame and are blatantly abusing our country, our laws and our citizens?

Don, we have to get most mainstream media involved in knowing about the abuse going on in the Work Visas. The top GOP'ers have to be questioned on this issue repeatedly. Unless we act now, it will be too late!

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Feb 13, 2012 10:40 AM Truth Truth  says:

India firing foreigners and hiring local citizens

www.economicpopulist.org/content/india-firing-foreigners-hiring-local-citizens

While it is the prerogative of India as to who they hire and fire, we have the same prerogative here too. And here we are giving H1b and L Visas to frauds from India.

Stop this Scam called the H1B and other work visas immediately. 400,000 Americans will find work this year! These jobs are ours!

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Feb 13, 2012 11:37 AM Bob Bob  says:

while I can't believe I am almost defending an Indian outsourcing firm, I will have to say that in my experience, 'corporate ethics' is kind of like 'jumbo shrimp', and the ethics statement quoted above is pretty much boilerplate text for such statements, even if they would steal the paint off your car if it weren't stuck on.

"Call it a hunch, but I think the feds might be getting a little fed up."

far from it - After being told a woman's husband cant find a job because the field is glutted with H-1bs, Obama basically said 'no it isnt' and then released a press release that he now wants to 'staple' a green card on 'STEM diplomas

from www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/02/02/conversation-we-people-about-immigration-policy

""That's why the President supports legislative measures that would attract and retain immigrants who create jobs and boost competitiveness here in the U.S.-including "stapling" green cards to the diplomas of certain foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields-as a part of his vision for building a 21st century immigration system.

We reiterated this message on our call, and also discussed what the Administration is doing-independent of Congress-to help improve existing immigration policies to attract and keep the best and the brightest in our country. During the Q&A session, callers raised many concerns regarding F-1 and other visas targeted for highly skilled immigrants. Among these was a question regarding the possibility of extending employment authorization to certain spouses of H-1B visa holders who are awaiting the adjudication of green card applications"

Obama will be 'fed up' the day the tech lobbyist check bounces

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Feb 14, 2012 1:04 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Bob

Bob, Mr Wedel's problem is not with visas but with his circumstance - 1. He can't move out of his current location due to legal issues with his ex-wife and 2. He worked at Texas Instruments which closed their facility in that location leading to his layoff. However, there is one local company where he's got a lead for an interview.

These two points were stated by themselves to begin with. To blame his issue of finding a job on H1-B visa is a convienient scapegoat that is easy to see through.

There are problems with visa abuse. But let's stick to the facts.

>>The fact that these offers were constructed, offered and declined AND published so quickly really smacks of that, being constructed for no other purpose than press release consumption, to discredit and demonize someone who had embarrassed the president.

Seriously? Mr Wedel declining offers is now someone else's fault? Typical entitlement mentality. Maybe him declining various offers should make people pause and think that maybe hisissue has  absolulety nothing to do with visas to begin with.

Mr and Mrs Wedel themselves takes responsibility for declining offers made to them and explains why they did so. Therefore, it makes more sense to listen to them over conspiracy theories.

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Feb 14, 2012 2:18 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Bob

Sorry Bob according to you if saying the fact by non-American is called Anti-American then let it be that way.

May be you can try read my post again and let me know what is so Anti-American in my comment. You shared a 1st part of the story and shared the 2nd part so that people can read both and come to an conclusion on who's fault is it rather.

I think you are a person with prejudice mind set who doesn't want to read fully before responding to any post. In no place I mentioned it is his fault but saying it is H1b's fault will be a stretch. If I get job offer other than my current place even I would reject it, but it will of my own decision and I can't blame you for my actions.

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Feb 14, 2012 3:05 AM Prakash Prakash  says: in response to Truth

Hi Don Tennant and Truth,

1) Every system has its flaws and advantages , Everybody dreams of perfection and the reality is always a struggle to achieve it .

2) taking about the H1 visas , they are issued to the people who are with specialized skills, I agree that it s a major conern if local people are jobless and the jobless rate is runnig high, But that does not meen  specialized jobs could be handled by them . you dont find Walmart and McD guys on a H1 , do you ? If you are taking about your "specialized skilled " persons being jobless ....that talks about their problem handling and multi skills capability .

We can understand the frustratuion and concern , but dont blow it out on  a wrong face through a wrong hole .

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Feb 14, 2012 4:48 AM J Brown J Brown  says: in response to Prakash

@Prakash

   Are you saying we need more h-1b holders like Faisal Shahzad, the failed Times Square bomber?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal_Shahzad

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Feb 14, 2012 6:53 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to ITJob

What's 'Anti-American' about your post is your expectation that a US citizen literally give up their first born child to remain employed, so that foreign nationals like yourself (which your language style strongly suggests) can take countless jobs in their home region.  The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex is huge, and it has countless H-1bs there granted all the time.  In an area this large, with the president's personal help, he cant get one offer there?!?!?  That suggests the market is flooded.

And I find it hard to believe that the reporter knew of the court requirements, but the nation's top law enforecement officer (Obama) working personally on this didn't  More like Obama only pulled strings in places he KNEW the man couldnt go without giving up his child, for the sole purpose of discrediting the Wedels.

Despicable

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Feb 14, 2012 7:09 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Bob

Bob did you just missed the important part after that google hang out. Her husband got 4 job offers but due to his personal reason he needs one in TX.

I really sorry to hear his personal story but blaming that on a H1b is really out of range. May you got only half information which leads you with preconceived notion.

Please feel free to read what happened after the google hang out

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46319918/ns/local_news-dallas_fort_worth_tx/#.TzUuTVyXRui

after reading it if you still believe H1b is the problem then respond to my post with how.

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Feb 14, 2012 7:13 AM ITJob ITJob  says:

Don,

   As Bob mentioned those are just boilerplate text and it has nothing to do with how any company do business. If you ever got chance to read resumes you can see lot of glorified objectives but many times it never match with the job that person delivers. I think this blog is kind of stretched beyond the actual intention of those text.

  Company policies are of not worth beyond the paper cost unless it is followed and it applies to all companies not just Infosys.

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Feb 14, 2012 7:54 AM IT Guy IT Guy  says:

Dear Don,

Lot of your blogs are critisizing Infosys and blaming grossly it for US Job Economy. No one is perfect and everyone makes some mistakes / lapses, Difficult to understand your intention why you are taking these efforts to conclude about something which is under Juridiction.

Thanks and regards

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Feb 14, 2012 9:20 AM Bob Bob  says:

Don, I really appreaciate how open minded you've been on this issue in the last year or so.

I think, in the reading of the comments of this story, and the articles linked, what a new low our society has reached, where a smear campaign is launched against Mr Wedel, because he declined to give up his daughter (by accepting out of state job offers) while he still had a local lead (but not offer), and a chance to keep her is his life.  Not knowing the full details of the custody arrangement, it may not have been legal to leave the area, period.

look at the sarcasm in this Informationweek article title

H-1B 'Victim' Still Jobless Despite Obama's Help

Semiconductor engineer whose wife forwarded resume to the President via Google+ says he can't accept out-of-state offers.

here's another biased title

Engineer Who Gave Obama Resume Declines Out-of-Area Job Offers

Fort Worth man still seeking work because he cannot relocate for family reasons

www.nbcdfw.com/news/tech/Engineer-Who-Gave-Obama-Resume-Gets-Job-Offers-138975464.html

where "And Darin Wedel has a local lead - a job interview next week in Corinth."

is buried in the details

look how vicious many of the comments are, condemning his for not up and leaving, before seeing how the local lead turns out.

This guy doesn't live out in the sticks, he lives in the DFW Metroplex, a huge city.

I hope you take a good look at the material in the comments, I think you have the makings for a great article.

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Feb 14, 2012 9:54 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Bob
moving out of the location. Reply
Feb 14, 2012 9:55 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Bob

Wow...you really need to drop your prejudice about others and stop trying to read between lines when nothing is in between lines.No one can help you if this is the way you want to twist/read others post.

Again large area doesn't transfer to more jobs in a particular field.And just because President is providing personal help no company is going to open a new factory (if you never know Semiconductor industries move long time back to Japan/Taiwan/Korea).You had made a wild uneducated guess and here I had provided some data for you to make educated guess.

If you look at H1b data (as per 2010 below is what I came across)

Total H1b's in US = 275k (Active from the day H1b prog started excluding people who become Permanent Residents or Citizens)

Total H1b's in TX = 22770

Total H1b's in Dallas,TX= 2976 (All cities in Dallas)

Total H1b's specifically real Engineering jobs= 67 (excluding software engineers and other non engineering fields)

Lowest salary wage (ENGINEERING TECHNICIAN) is $40810

Highest wage (VICE PRESIDENT OF TECHNOLOGY - WIRELESS) is $150,000.

Salary range from 40k to 65k = 15 out of 67

Salary range from 66k to 80k = 20 out of 67

Salary range >80k = 32 out of 67

Data shows there is not much Engineering (I mean real engineering jobs) left in Dallas,TX.

He was working as Process Engineer at Texas Instruments(DMOS 5 Polysilicon Deposition)and holds 11yrs+ experience in the industry according to his linkedin profile.You simply assumed ever H1b's position can be filled by him which could be wrong.His wife was right about having high H1b limit on high unemployment rate but she was wrong to say her husband can't get job because of H1b as data shows otherwise.

Unfortunately you did declared US President did only to discredit him, which clearly shows you had reviewed entire episode with closed mind.If you can do this to your own President then I don't have to expect you not do the same to an anonymous person in the internet!!!

Also please enlighten yourself by reading WaPo article about Mr.Wedel.

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/president-obamas-google-plus-hangout-claims-about-engineering-demand/2012/02/03/gIQALoaOuQ_blog.html

Some part of the article....

Darin's work falls under the category of electrical engineering.The unemployment level for that field has risen by 1.7 percentage points since 2006.

The president was right to point out that "there are different kinds of engineers." Civil engineering had a 2011 unemployment rate of 4.8 percent, which was the second highest behind only industrial engineering at 5.5 percent.Electrical engineering, which represents the type of engineering Darin does, hit 3.4 percent, while mechanical engineering had a rate of 2.4 percent.

The jobless rate for computer engineering has risen just 0.8 percentage points since 2006.It jumped by 1.7 percentage points for electrical engineers.

BLS job-growth projections show even more disparity within engineering.The bureau estimates that civil engineering jobs will increase by a robust 19.4 percent between 2010 and 2020, while electrical engineering is expected to gain just 7 percent.

The BLS projects employment numbers for very specific job categories, so we were able to drill down to Darin's exact profession. Reply

Feb 14, 2012 9:55 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Bob
The bureau projects that engineering jobs within the field of "semiconductor and other electronic component manufacturing" will drop nearly 11 percent by 2020 - bleak expectations compared with the overall engineering sector.

A 2010 report (cppionline.org/docs/The-Decline-of-Semiconductor-Manufacturing.pdf) from the Center for Public Policy Innovation suggests that the industry has just moved abroad, with the U.S.share of global semiconductor production capacity dropping 11 percent between 2005 and 2009.(The New York Times provided an excellent analysis last month of how the U.S.has lost manufacturing opportunities). 

PS:I never blamed him rather it was his situation which prevents him from moving out of the location.

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Feb 14, 2012 10:02 AM Analyst Analyst  says:

Do you know that companies like IBM, Google and Microsoft are among the top 10 h1b visa holders? And did you know that IBM has more people in India today than Infosys? Are you certain that none of these American companies are doling out lobbyist cheques or circumventing visa regulations?

Don, I get your issue with visa regulations being broken, but your view is becoming ridiculously one-side and biased.

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Feb 14, 2012 10:26 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to IT Guy

I'm not blaming Infosys for anything other than the visa and tax violations it has committed, the illegal actions it has taken against Jay Palmer for reporting those crimes, and its failure to be truthful about the matter. As I've stated repeatedly before, I've seen the evidence of illegal activity, and I've even posted some of it in this blog. I don't need to wait for the judicial process to play out to know what I have seen with my own eyes. I can also tell you that I know more than I can write about in this blog.

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Feb 14, 2012 10:42 AM Prakash Prakash  says: in response to J Brown

HI Brown , Every system has its pros an Cons . it is the lapse in the governance of the systems that causes the issues .

Please understand that the issue of black sheep is not just limited to H1B , it is the global problem and global threat . why blame it on H1 ?

We hear more cases of  frenetic ppl gunning down innocent in universities and shopping malls so often  , so who is responsible for this ? whom to blame on ? is it  parenting problem ? lack of vigilance ? government failure ? or  to generalize as you just did it is the problem with ppl who call themselves citizens living in the land of Red indians ?

We can point out at everything and any thing but the backbone is governance at higher level , may be that is what former CEO Kris Gopalakrishnan is reffering to which could make a better place . 

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Feb 14, 2012 11:46 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Don Tennant

Am I missing something here? I stopped requesting you to pass judgement as you already rejected the request. My point here is nothing related to you passing judgement so not sure why decided to bring that topic here again.

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Feb 14, 2012 12:42 PM Bob Bob  says: in response to ITJob

I think your post demonstrates how anti-American family the H-1b program and it's supporters have become, judging him for not 'up and leaving' his state and (presumably and most likely, moving 1700 miles away to CA) at the drop of a hat.

Neither you or I know if he had any out of state offers BEFORE the chat with the president.  It is safe to presume that AFTER chatting with the president, and having the president 'move his resume', that he was in a completely different arena of visibility (IE, a company that gives him an offer has a favor owed from the White House, which wouldnt have been true before), and the guy might be waiting to see if any of the offers would be local.  Can you really fault a guy for taking a week during a new period of an extrordinary visibility to see if moving his family nearly 2000 miles away was still necessary?!?

Also, it's odd that the offers have already been 'refused' already.  Never in any of the 30 plus interviews I have conducted as part of a selection team, has a candidate EVER gone from stranger to interview to offer to decline in the space of a week, EVER!!!  Candidates will almost always take all the time granted to weight their alternatives, and companies dont mind, because we wanted the candidate to be satisfied that he or she made the best decision for themselves when they arrived for day 1 of the job.   Yet, in the case it happens 4 times in one week. Nor have we EVER made such offers and declines public. 

It really smells of being given an offers he 'had to refuse' to make a point to cover for the president, who is covering for the tech companies in the first place.  The fact that these offers were constructed, offered and declined AND published so quickly really smacks of that, being constructed for no other purpose than press release consumption, to discredit and demonize someone who had embarrassed the president.

The only thing sincere in your post is your attitude that all American workers should be subject to endless foreign prosecution

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Feb 15, 2012 1:39 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jake_leone

>> when tech companies compete it generates jobs, when workers >>compete you get unemployment...

>>

>>In most tech engineering fields, when a company is under >>competition, they realize they must match or add features to, this >>results in hiring. 

Just a side note:

You can either be pessimistic or optimistic. You are optimisitic for tech companies but pessimistic for workers. Undertandable but there are two ways to look at it:

For Tech companies: they either loose business and close down or they, as you put it "must match or add features"

Same is true for workers - they either loose jobs or they get competitive and result in getting hired. Workers "must match or add features" too. Not doing so cannot stop the evolutionary process.

It's not just companies that have to "match or add features". Companies at the end of day, consists of workers.

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Feb 15, 2012 1:43 AM Ram Ram  says:

It is interesting to read comments about the need to shut down H1 visa program and throw people out of US - remember that US is talking about opening up and liberalization in many Asian markets at the same moment ! America is the champion of free trade and border-less competition. It has trampled many nations in the process. The argument always was that free competition is healthy. Please remember what companies using H1 are practicing what US economists and policy makers have been preaching - free competition  If I have understood the basis of the economic theory practiced by US, there is only one way to survive - that is not being protectionist, but learning to compete and outsmart competition. That is what US has to learn to do.

When American cola, burger and chips were eating away domestic markets elsewhere, the local companies were told to compete. Now when skilled workers in US are facing competition from overseas workers - they should be told the same thing - please compete. What you are facing is no different from what the chip, burger and cola makers of third world countries faced. They competed, it is time you too did that....

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Feb 15, 2012 1:50 AM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to ITJob

After a 100k in (unrevocable by bankruptcy) debt, and no job, I don't think you know the massive risk that U.S. university students take en masse.

I can't help but think of the Home Depot CEO, after several ruinous years at the top taking a huge Golden parachute of several hundred million dollars and leaving the company with a huge reduction in actual value and massive layoffs.  I think it is clear, 99% of the CEOs don't take any risks.  They make sure their contract doesn't have any risks, and huge monetary fine if they are laid off.  No in fact, they get to rip-off both the investor and the worker and live as fat cats for rest of their 30 year retirement.

Of all the CEO's in the world, most are not founders.  Most are cronies who come in after the founder leaves (or is forced to leave), or after the previous CEO (not a founder) leaves.

And frankly, h-1b, l-1 are not for people who want to found companies.  No, you can't come in as a self-employed person under H-1b or L-1.  So your statement in regards to this Visa debate is irrelevant.  Non-immigrant Visas, h-1b and L-1, are for wage slaves.  By encouraging people to take, a non-immigrant visa, you draw them away (for at least six years) from being able to start business.  You encourage them to not take risks.

H-1b and L-1 discourages competition at the Company to Company level, the very same level where competition is needed (between tech companies) to force them to hire (in order to build a more competitive product). 

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Feb 15, 2012 2:41 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to jake_leone

"After a 100k in (unrevocable by bankruptcy) debt, and no job, I don't think you know the massive risk that U.S.university students take en masse."

Please don't go for the super expense colleges which teach you nothing different than the community college that is one way to get the college fees down.But don't expect companies to hire you just because you had completed High School.

"I can't help but think of the Home Depot CEO, after several ruinous years at the top taking a huge Golden parachute of several hundred million dollars and leaving the company with a huge reduction in actual value and massive layoffs. I think it is clear, 99% of the CEOs don't take any risks. "

Seriously you need to look beyond CEOs of companies trading in stock market.Do you think CEO means only people are in super big companies?So you mean to say there is no CEOs in small business who takes risk.

Again here is the problem with people like you

1) you don't trust governments

2) You don't trust small business CEOs

3) You don't trust Politicians

4) You don't trust your own strength and knowledge

But non of you wanted to be part of

1) Government because jobs are not that rewarding or boring

2) CEO's because they are not founders and they are all cronies

3) Politics is dirty job and it is only for criminals

and without out fail every day and night you guys will complain about all those important part of a country.Adding to that you will pick people who are immigrants...and blame every single problems created by those entities on them.

"And frankly, h-1b, l-1 are not for people who want to found companies. No, you can't come in as a self-employed person under H-1b or L-1. So your statement in regards to this Visa debate is irrelevant. Non-immigrant Visas, h-1b and L-1, are for wage slaves. By encouraging people to take, a non-immigrant visa, you draw them away (for at least six years) from being able to start business. You encourage them to not take risks."

Did I said H1b create jobs???If you want to give job only to Americans better start a company and recruit only Americans.And by the way I will start my own company right after getting my PR.Please go and fight for those non-immigrants rights to start business, because no politicians want to listen to us because we are not a real vote bank for them.

"H-1b and L-1 discourages competition at the Company to Company level, the very same level where competition is needed (between tech companies) to force them to hire (in order to build a more competitive product)."

Another uneducated guess from you, lets say if Company A has 10 h1bs with low wage (according to your previous statement...but I fully disagree...bcs I get paid six figure salary for just 10yrs of IT exp) and Company B has 10 American citizen don't see the cost advantage for which company B has to compete with?

And lets add company C which outsource those 10 jobs to India/China...now Company A has to compete with cost advantage company C has.

For sure you can't ban outsourcing, either you get the resource here and let the money stay here or implement ban on immigration (which you can) and out source the jobs to India/China.You have to pick one and that too really fast otherwise time will pick one by its own for which you wouldn't have any plan.

Welcome to real world my friend.

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Feb 15, 2012 4:01 AM Joel Joel  says: in response to Truth

Absolutely agree. I have 4 friends in IT that have been unemployed for over 6 months after their jobs were replaced by these H1 workers at wages that were far below American standards.

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Feb 15, 2012 4:13 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Joel

Can you enlighten everyone with more detail rather than simple vague political statement?

Which City/State/Zipcode?

Which Company?

What Salary range got paid to Americans?

What Salary range paid to H1b's?

If you can't give those then there is no reason for bring this up.

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Feb 15, 2012 4:19 AM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says: in response to ITJob

There is a 3rd option.  Capital intensive industry.

In many ways Software has let itself become more labor-intensive.  For example there are 2 software tool,  we'll call one HP-Quick Test Pro and the other Selenium.

Selenium is free, but requires a great deal more man-hours to setup and maintain.

HP-Quick Test Pro costs a great deal per license, but requires about 1/3 the man hours to setup, and about 1/10 the man-hours to maintain.

I know, because I have worked with both tools.

Ok well if people are cheap you go with the free option, because man-hours mean nothing.  Your workers are paid a low-wage and it stays that way because they don't improve their productivity, in fact their productivity goes down as they try to find ways to make up for the deficiencies of the free tool you have provided.

If people are more costly, you go with the more (initially expensive item) because you know you will recoup the initial fixed-cost in the long run (probably the first year, in the U.S.).  You can afford to pay your workers more, because instead of trying to make up for the deficiencies of the tools you provide, they are busy creating the product you are selling.

There are many examples of this throughout industry, where industry is forced to improve the productivity of the workers in order to maintain production.  This is by far the best solution.

If you have an over-supply of input, industry will exploit that input.  If oil sold for the 50 cents a barrel that it costs to product in Saudi Arabia, then no doubt, we would already have a melted polar ice cap, and many low-lying countries would be flooded.  Is that better?  I don't think so.

If instead of treating people like robots in China, they treated them like humans, then maybe the suicide rates at Foxconn plantations wouldn't be so high.

If instead of treating our Farm Workers like disposables, we were forced to pay them correctly and treat them right, Farm industry would be motivated to find ways to ease their working conditions.

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Feb 15, 2012 4:57 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Joel

Maybe they got replaced by H1-B workers. But why are they still unemployed? Can you let us know their skills, experience, location and salary?

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Feb 15, 2012 8:53 AM Captain Bullfrog Captain Bullfrog  says: in response to ITJob

"You are right American workers aren't meant to compete against foreign workers but unfortunately companies have to compete against companies around the world. When you learn how to compete around world you will learn to win and don't expect government to hold you hand and work day and night for you.

Keep blaming others for not putting real effort...now you be prepared to compete with 14yr old kids (yep..again immigrant!!!) for same job you are doing now..."

When we learn how to compete - perhaps you are referring to falsifying resumes and experience? That kind of competition? We have to contend with people who can't even be honest about their past. And once we get beyond that, there are the people that have made it to management level that remove the properly experienced workers to bring others in. WE aren't afraid of competing, hmmm? Don't forget - we wrote the book on IT - PCs, OS's, the internet... The visa temp workers and their merchants are the hangers on, and they need to cut corners in order to keep up.

Keep blaming others for not putting in the real effort - again, real effort comes from experience and not shortcutting and casting the blame on those who call it to the carpet. I know it's painful to recognize but the evidence is rather overwhelming.

The government and their regulatory practices are meant to provide protection for it's citizens. Hand holding it is not.

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Feb 15, 2012 10:00 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Captain Bullfrog

wow...instead of giving proper answer you decided to just paint H1b's with big brush...way to go...it may feel you are great than immigrant but that doesn't solve any of the problems.

So, you mean to say every H1b working here are based on fake experience and all unemployed citizens are jobless because they don't.

If I apply your theory on frauds happening in US then may be they don't need to add fake experience because they don't need a job...they can get paid for doing nothing in US

by unemployment fraud

jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/09/21/unemployment-fraud-exceeds-16-billion/

by medicare fraud

abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/feds-recover-41b-health-care-fraud-2011-15577583#.TzxeZ1yXSCc

by health care fraud

money.cnn.com/2010/01/13/news/economy/health_care_fraud/

by Social Security fraud

www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/12/disability_fraud_saps_social_s.html

by Tax fraud

www.cheatingculture.com/tax-evasion/2011/4/15/tax-evasion-the-staggering-cost.html

by First time home buyers fraud

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703574604574501253942115922.html

Again according to your theory none of the students graduate in US are doing without cheating...because there is SAT cheating

www.cheatingculture.com/academic-dishonesty/2011/12/14/inequality-and-the-sat-cheating-scandal.html

Here is high profile resume fraud

www.cheatingculture.com/resume-padding/

And here is how teachers in US do fraud

www.cheatingculture.com/teacher-cheating/

And there is lot listed in www.cheatingculture.com

According to the list of frauds above and trillions of dollars involved, I don't think out of 300million population hardly a million or two can come out clean...what do you think?

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Feb 15, 2012 11:11 AM Captain Bullfrog Captain Bullfrog  says: in response to ITJob

Your comparative analysis showcases your acknowledgement; and perhaps even consent.

But you are deflecting - the original intent and construct of the foreign labor visa program was not to support the success of an offshore business model, it was to allow corporations to fill gaps.

The companies that offer low cost/low liability labor have taken advantage of the program for profit. Evidence supports it.

Do you deny this?

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Feb 15, 2012 12:04 PM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Ram
Ram, when tech companies compete it generates jobs, when workers compete you get unemployment.  When people return to their home country and create a tech product producing business, they create competition between companies.  In most tech engineering fields, when a company is under competition, they realize they must match or add features to, this results in hiring.  So releasing engineers to go home and create competitive (product-producing) businesses will actually boost U.S. employment.This is primarily because tech development is a labor intensive industry.  And many established tech companies, are highly profitable, with billions in the bank.  So competition is needed to compel them to use that money to actually compete.Right now, in the world today, there are enough workers to replace every U.S. worker 8 times over.  There is no way that U.S. citizens can compete with that level of replacement.  Asking us to compete in that way, is tantamount to asking us to starve to death.Businesses have for years been using illegal workers to force concessions from local citizens, resulting in low pay, and unhealthy working conditions, in many service and industrial jobs.  Farm worker pay and working conditions for example haven't changed in 100 years.  It is still a deadly job, where people are routinely subjected to pesticides, and die of heat exhaustion.  The ability of agribusiness to get cheap replacements has created a situation where workers cannot challenge the labor conditions.  Simple things, like a shade canopy, requirement to cease chemical spraying during harvest, sensible work-hours are not present in america's produce fields because of this unnatural competition between workers.Yes these people from Mexico they compete, until they die.  We see the same scenario repeat itself, in even seemingly innocent companies such as Apple.  Because CEO's don't care about the local people, they care only about profit, that single-mindedness is, in numerous cases, incompatible with human life.  Bhopal.Further, economies are not joined, all countries are far more protectionist than the United States, there is no "World-Citizenship".  Non-immigrant Visas are a government program, the only natural immigration occured because people came here to stay, and become citizens.  U.S. citizens face draft, Jury duty...and many similar responsibility non-citizens do not face.  The U.S. is running a trillion dollar per year deficit, a big part of which is caused by unemployment and the need to nearly unilaterally defend itself from murderers harbored by other countries.When you trade at the level that we do, spend at the level that the U.S. government (which BTW is our sole enfranchiser, defender, and human right guarantor), you need other countries to not run a trade deficit with us for decades, you need the money to return from overseas banks (held by certain corporate-communist states, and tech corporation which are not competing much so there is no need to return money to invest).  It's a bitter lesson, but the truth of the European economy is that some countries have such a huge advantage over others that they draw money in, while other countries cannot compete and so run a deficit.  But in Europe you can't switch countries, go become a German if you are in Greece or Italy.  And the reason is simple, Germans citizens know they can't compete.  They can't have a house, get their kids educated, afford a car, unless they have certain wage levels.  The German government knows that people must earn a decent living in order to pay for infrastructure, police, fire, roads.  You know, the things that keep people healthy and functional.Capitalist CEO's don't want to pay for any of that.  Competition between workers results in unemployment and government deficit spending.  Competition between fat-tech companies (many Reply
Feb 15, 2012 12:05 PM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Ram

Ram, when tech companies compete it generates jobs, when workers compete you get unemployment. When people return to their home country and create a tech product producing business, they create competition between companies. In most tech engineering fields, when a company is under competition, they realize they must match or add features to, this results in hiring. So releasing engineers to go home and create competitive (product-producing) businesses will actually boost U.S.employment.

This is primarily because tech development is a labor intensive industry. And many established tech companies, are highly profitable, with billions in the bank. So competition is needed to compel them to use that money to actually compete.

Right now, in the world today, there are enough workers to replace every U.S.worker 8 times over. There is no way that U.S.citizens can compete with that level of replacement. Asking us to compete in that way, is tantamount to asking us to starve to death.

Businesses have for years been using illegal workers to force concessions from local citizens, resulting in low pay, and unhealthy working conditions, in many service and industrial jobs. Farm worker pay and working conditions for example haven't changed in 100 years. It is still a deadly job, where people are routinely subjected to pesticides, and die of heat exhaustion. The ability of agribusiness to get cheap replacements has created a situation where workers cannot challenge the labor conditions. Simple things, like a shade canopy, requirement to cease chemical spraying during harvest, sensible work-hours are not present in america's produce fields because of this unnatural competition between workers.

Yes these people from Mexico they compete, until they die. We see the same scenario repeat itself, in even seemingly innocent companies such as Apple. Because CEO's don't care about the local people, they care only about profit, that single-mindedness is, in numerous cases, incompatible with human life. Bhopal.

Further, economies are not joined, all countries are far more protectionist than the United States, there is no "World-Citizenship". Non-immigrant Visas are a government program, the only natural immigration occured because people came here to stay, and become citizens. U.S.citizens face draft, Jury duty...and many similar responsibility non-citizens do not face. The U.S.is running a trillion dollar per year deficit, a big part of which is caused by unemployment and the need to nearly unilaterally defend itself from murderers harbored by other countries.

When you trade at the level that we do, spend at the level that the U.S.government (which BTW is our sole enfranchiser, defender, and human right guarantor), you need other countries to not run a trade deficit with us for decades, you need the money to return from overseas banks (held by certain corporate-communist states, and tech corporation which are not competing much so there is no need to return money to invest). 

It's a bitter lesson, but the truth of the European economy is that some countries have such a huge advantage over others that they draw money in, while other countries cannot compete and so run a deficit. But in Europe you can't switch countries, go become a German if you are in Greece or Italy. And the reason is simple, Germans citizens know they can't compete.  Reply

Feb 15, 2012 12:05 PM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Ram
They can't have a house, get their kids educated, afford a car, unless they have certain wage levels. The German government knows that people must earn a decent living in order to pay for infrastructure, police, fire, roads. You know, the things that keep people healthy and functional.

Capitalist CEO's don't want to pay for any of that. Competition between workers results in unemployment and government deficit spending. Competition between fat-tech companies (many with hundreds of billions in overseas banks) can generate jobs.

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Feb 15, 2012 12:31 PM Captain Bullfrog Captain Bullfrog  says: in response to Ram

American workers aren't meant to compete against foreign workers. That's not the spirit of the H1B, or B1, or whatever visa. It's to provide assistance when an American can't be found - however the bodyshopping firms use statistical analysis from (intentionally) geographically separated opportunities from the targeted resume holder's residence in order to support the claim that nobody can be found.

The bodyshopping agencies have taken advantage of the visa program beyond it's original intent to wrongly benefit from it. And now they think they are entitled to a marketshare because they have gotten comfortable in getting away with it.

It is not the responsibility of the United States to provide employment to foreign individuals so they may have greater income than what they might earn at home. To suggest that there is a requirement to compete is missing the entire basis of the opportunity to work in the United States.

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Feb 15, 2012 12:50 PM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to jake_leone

Is CEO are get dropped from the sky by god???

How about people who keep complaining about CEO's start a company practice what preach and then lead the other CEO in the right path defined  by you.

When we are going to stop blaming others while we have options in had which we never want to try...?

Person blaming others never wanted to take risk, they want 9-5 job with all perks and internet in office so that they can complain about the company/CEO behavior.

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Feb 15, 2012 12:56 PM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Captain Bullfrog

You are right American workers aren't meant to compete against foreign workers but unfortunately companies have to compete against companies around the world. When you learn how to compete around world you will learn to win and don't expect government to hold you hand and work day and night for you.

Keep blaming others for not putting real effort...now you be prepared to compete with 14yr old kids (yep..again immigrant!!!) for same job you are doing now...

yourlife.usatoday.com/parenting-family/story/2012-02-15/Boy-geniuss-book-reveals-life-in-college-at-age-8/53101722/1

World is changing really fast, don't expect the change is gonna wait for you until you catch up with it.

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Feb 16, 2012 1:02 AM Ram Ram  says: in response to jake_leone

Jake - appreciate your detailed response. I was talking from a larger economic theory perspective. Capitalism advocates that one should try to maximise gains on any of the elements  of production - land, labor, capital or organization. US is using its strength on capital and organization by launching global firms that are spread all over the place. They point that you mentioned, that they create jobs is because US labor is expensive and on the element of labor, they use local support.   Third world countries can not compete on capital or organization, so they try to compete on labor which is their strong point. And the same way as US uses local labor, they use US capital and organization. I think that is fair competition and fully based on the principles of capitalism.

If you are speaking about socialism of distributing resources equally to all needy and protecting those who are unable to compete, then we will have to redefine the way US corporates operate across the world

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Feb 16, 2012 3:40 AM Da Truth Da Truth  says: in response to Ram

There is "NO" corporate ethics but firms follow rules and are professional in their dealings. But Infosys and other Indian firms are pathetic to the extent - that they have no proffesionalism (very few employees ) - mainly due to the fact that most of middle and senior management have not worked in other places.

Unfortunately, I am saddened that nothing will come of it in August since

1. Its a civil lawsuit

2. Not enough press on the criminal investigation

3. Not enough political pressure

4. There are a handful of people here cribbing about it

5. Where is America's strength in showing how its done and teaching them a lesson - If USA can take a dramatic and powerful decision - it will be the strongest deterrent that can be taken.

But for heavens sake spread the message.

Don, please add a Facebook and Twitter share button to the blog.

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Feb 16, 2012 3:45 AM DaTruth DaTruth  says: in response to IT Guy

I believe there is lot of evidence against evidence - past,present and future. This is a serious issue and needs to be given wide publicity so the American people can put pressure on the political and judicial system to take strong action against Infosys.

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Feb 16, 2012 6:24 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to DaTruth

I can agree to your point about putting pressure on political system but I'm not sure you can put any pressure on Judicial system in US. Judicial system should work without any pressure otherwise we are trying to twist the normal outcome.

If a judicial system pass judgement based on new articles then it will be really dangerous approach because most to the time new articles are based on the author's opinion and we can't assume author is always right

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Feb 16, 2012 9:13 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to Captain Bullfrog

"Your comparative analysis showcases your acknowledgement; and perhaps even consent."

You can read what you wanted to...what I was saying is fraud and unethical act is not related to single ethnic group or country or particular visa type.

When you paint whole people came on H1 gain jobs based on fraud then the same should apply to citizens too. You cannot use different yard stick to measure H1 resources and US citizens.

"But you are deflecting - the original intent and construct of the foreign labor visa program was not to support the success of an offshore business model, it was to allow corporations to fill gaps."

This is understanding issue on your side, what you are trying to say is if US stops H1 then outsourcing will be stopped once for all and unemployment will become zero. Which can be wise suggestion but there is zero evidence to prove that.

When a company can't get a resource in US and they have off shore office in India/China where they have resource (with even 1/10 of labor cost) do you think company will pay 2x the wage to get someone her? Now business has to compete world wide so they have to use every possible tool to compete. When government has no idea how to control its own budget how could you argue the same government to control the business.

If you never run a business which have option to off shore and in-shore then you don't understand what others are speaking and you will keep throwing same old straw man argument with no content. My company has both offshore and in-shore business, for every opportunity they try to offshore and they do succeed in doing so. H1b is no way helping off shoring..it helps the job stays on-shore, B1 visa is there to do off-shoring where the resource come here, learn the business and take the knowledge to offshore.

H1b cannot be used to do off-shoring business because of the flexibility it give to the employee and employers are not that dump to miss the very basic point. I can join another employer withing 30days (with just 1 pay stub) of landing in US, whereas if I'm B1 I have zero option to switch. If you never been in any of those visas then you have less understanding (unless you are immigration attorney) on how it can be used.

"The companies that offer low cost/low liability labor have taken advantage of the program for profit. Evidence supports it."

Another straw man argument with zero understanding of H1b. As I said before if an employer pays me less, just in 2 weeks I can move to different employer who can pay me right wage. Every employer understand this and they always try to avoid such issue. Basic reason is getting a resource into US is the real hard work once they are here moving out is very easy for the employee. Either employer has to pay right wage or face the reality of losing the employee.

Do you got any more straw man argument...?

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Feb 16, 2012 9:17 AM Jerr Jerr  says: in response to ITJob

Putting pressure is a way of letting the status quo know that the public is upset about a certain conduct. I'm all in favor of that. It does not need to affect the judicial system, which one would hope is professional enough to decide on their own terms. But to bring the problem in the public spot, yes, that is much needed.

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Feb 16, 2012 9:22 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to ITJob

Just to add, I did verified my company H1 records (as of 2010) and out of 18 H1b they have the lowest salary is $80k (for an Analyst) and highest salary is $180k (for an VP). And my current salary is 10% higher than what was approved by DOL, so no way H1b is cheap labor for any employer. On top of whatever they pay me they have to spend more on H1b related expenses which could easily adds another $6k.

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Feb 16, 2012 11:33 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Da Truth

There is a share button -- if you click on it, Twitter and Facebook are two of the options.

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Feb 16, 2012 12:11 PM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Ram

First off, let me give you some idea of where my thinking originates. I work from the theory that we do things because of our belief. We believe money has value, therefore we can use it as exchange for finished goods. We believe there are bad consequences if we break the law, therefore we don't break the law that we know about. And so on...

Capitalism is the belief system, where government assigns value to money and allows people to own (sort-of) (through a weird rent system called property taxes) land, goods and items. Governments enforce this system the same way they would anything else through military, civil-para-military ranks. Capitalism is a government progam.

BTW, these military programs look the same in Communist China, Russia, Iran, Israel, the U.S., India... They all look like an Orwellian nightmare of conformity.

Communism (with a capital C) is also a government program and is based upon several ideas from Marx and Lenin.

And socialism (difficult to see the difference between most current governments and socialism) is also a government program.

I would prefer to call all governments communist (with a lowercase c), in that the word means "together-with-belief". As it gives a unit (belief) and a frame of reference from which you can compare governments.

Most governments are composites of several systems, the U.S.is a composite of many systems as well. Representative Democracy, Masonic idea of temporary leadership (China recently adopted something similar), Capitalism, Socialism, Several tax systems, Citizenship (part of the Constitution), non-citizenship...

The enforcement of citizenship, the enfranchisement of people who are willing to pay for (up to their very lives) to defend the system, is part of the U.S.government (and is part of all governments).

Because the alternative is anarchy. Where people don't believe in a government. But usually what happens is anarchy exists for a short time, and then people form militias, huntas, tribes, mafia, anything to enforce basic laws (ten commandments or what-ever) on each other. But this often results in a lot of killing, genocide, misunderstanding, prejudice, pain, ugliness.

So it is necessary that the government exist. The U.S.government (like most), uses a form of currency, it establishes a belief in the exchange value of that currency (through prime interest rate adjustment). The U.S.does little else. And it is no wonder that the value of that currency relative to certain fundamental economic inputs has gone crazy. Oil for example has seen a huge run-up and it hurts economic activity in the U.S.

The economic activity of the U.S.has several feedback systems, taxes and unemployment for example. A failure in the belief in money, resulting from a breakdown of the government to pay it's debt, is a key part of Capitalism. Many CEO's believe they are divorced from that reality, they don't want to pay for their own defense, infrastructure, and raw material (in this case people). So why shouldn't government make sure that getting people off the unemployment line (most of whom just happen to be citizens) is a priority and preventing the loss of jobs to other countries making sure this is not facilitated by the visa system (another government program)?

Yeah, so its complicated, TOO BAD.  Reply

Feb 16, 2012 12:11 PM jake_leone jake_leone  says: in response to Ram
But you can't think of it any other way. If you break the economy into religious houses, Communist Red versus Capitalist Blue, then you knock your economic IQ way down, and you can't see the truth about how the economy works. If you ascribe to the belief that free trade is good (because of the comparative model), you automatically exclude the reality of Cartels, governments, and huntas all of which are real part of the economic environment. And contribute heavily to the imbalance (and you thought markets naturally balanced themselves?didn't you?) in trade, which has forced the money to come back to the United States through one method:

The Ten Year Treasury Bill.

Yes, China manipulates its currency to the low-side, China tariffs U.S.goods, China does not trade fairly with the United States but expects the U.S.to maintain an open market to all of its goods. 

Yes India, expects the United States to maintain an open market to all of its professionals but does not allow U.S.citizens to have the same rights in India (you can't buy property, you must make at least 12x the average Indian salary...and so on, as well as Tariff U.S.goods).

We need our government, the U.S.government uses money (and it must have value), to protect the people (CEO's are also people), and the people must pay for that protection (rich CEO's gotta pay more because they have more discretionary income).

Without government oversight you wind up with (more than average number of) problems caused by idiocy (accidents, betting peoples retirements on bad investments, Ponzi schemes...), diseases spreading unchecked, nuclear disaster fukishima.Calamity, Kalamity, after Kai-Lame-Ity...

The markets don't work, without oversight. If you had bet the U.S.economy on the market we'd already have 3 or 4 fukishimas in the U.S.already. Civil tort penalties are not enough, because human life is actually priceless despite what you've heard or read about in civil trials. Where a human, who died through someones non-criminal negligence, was valued at say a million dollars (some CEO is out there salivating at the investment opportunities, hmmm risk to reward ratio seems workable), human life is priceless, so we need a government to protect us from the GREED-OF-IDIOTS.

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Feb 17, 2012 5:53 AM Employee Employee  says: in response to ITJob

Ok, everybody has their point of view and to be giving very simple answer.

No employer wants to spend 6-8k $ in hiring an employee if the employer can find equivalent talent for free.

H1-B jobs are for skilled foreign aliens. If people in the country can't find a job given these circumstances, Its their lack of talent nothing else.

and for all other story

if H1-B is taking more jobs (even though its not true, but consider it once)

the amount of money the international students bring (from only one state in India ) is far more than an average american earning of so many years.

Think. and think again before you feel rage.

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Feb 17, 2012 9:01 AM miusa miusa  says:
Feb 17, 2012 10:41 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to miusa

And here is the jobs if you they have required skills to fill it

money.cnn.com/2012/02/16/smallbusiness/manufacturing_jobs/index.htm?iid=Lead&;hpt=hp_c1

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Feb 18, 2012 1:21 AM Jake_leone Jake_leone  says: in response to ITJob

This is a propaganda piece by the machining industry to claim they have a shortage.  The truth of machining is that the pay is dirt, 10-20$ an hour.  If Machining wants people, pay a living wage.  Typical specialty machine shops will bill customers (or estimate based upon) a hundred dollars per hour, while paying workers 10$ and hour.  Yes, there's overhead, but typically a machine shop own can clear half a million in busy times, so I don't sympathize.  I know, I used to be a CNC Machinist, 22 years ago.

This is a message to all the machine shop owners, who say they need workers.  Pay a living wage.  Avoid layoffs.  Keep your skilled workers by giving them some sort of job security and benefits.  That said, realize, a contractor working on his own can charge 80$/hour to fix something in your house, what motivation can you offer to a CNC machinist similarly enticed by many other industries?  Here's a hint, don't think cheap.

This is all just a part of the race to the bottom, to replace every U.S. citizen with a person on a visa.  After all, there are 8 replacements in the world for every U.S. citizen on the job.  Given that reality, you can always find someone who will work for food.

If you talk to any business owner (and this article is similarly anecdotal) they will tell you we can't find enough people.  If you press them, or take a serious look, what you will actually find is a workplace with little or no medical benefits, dirt-wages, difficult working conditions.  The truth of it is, the low-level worker is the most vulnerable person in society, they work (often 2 jobs), pay all of their salary in rent, food, and transportation.  Can save very little, have meager advancement opportunities, and no investment opportunities.  Are typically the first layed off.

If you want serious workers, pay serious wages.  Do you need a union to show you how?

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Feb 20, 2012 3:27 AM Crab Crab  says: in response to Jake_leone

I have a question for all those who support throwing out H1B or L1 IT workers out of the country...Do you really know what you are asking for...all the IT companies in US posting huge results, and employing new resources do that because of spending on offshore. They save millions because of offshoring, H1B and L1 workers. Can you get Dell,Apple and other companies  build their components in US and not in china...go and ask IBM to shut down India office and get Jobs back to US...no one will....they will have to fire thousands in US to maintain share prices and investor confidence...This story  has two faces...one face is American Companies who developed the idea of offshoring...You guys need to fight them first..then the so called body shoppers...

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Feb 21, 2012 12:04 PM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says: in response to Crab

Tech companies only hire when they face competition.  If they don't feel any competition, they don't hire and instead start to accumulate cash.  Oracle, Apple, IBM all have billions in offshore banks right now (if you doubt me watch the 60 minutes segment on the corporate tax holiday.  That money is locked up, it only gets into the U.S. when these companies feel a need to add features to their products.

Or through government T-bills.

If corporate profit margins were little lower (because they had to hire people in the U.S.), then the money would still be in the U.S. economy, employing people.  Instead it sits, in offshore banks, and the only way it can get back into the country is via the banking system.  In a real way, the high (untaxed) profits of corporations are feeding the borrowing of the Federal Government (around 1 trillion per year right now).

When foreign workers return to their homeland and setup competitive business (for example SAP, Sony, Toyota...) they create competition for U.S. corporations.  These foreign companies also (oddly) begin to invest in U.S. development subsidiaries, and so employ more Americans.  I know, I was employed by a foreign company for several years.

While I support a corporate tax holiday, only competition at the corporate level will cause companies to hire in the U.S.

Tech companies right now are awash with cash, but it isn't because of offshoring, Apple made money even when they produced all of their product in the U.S.   The main reason why Apple produces in China is because people in China are treated like a commodity.  They are housed in warehouses, can literally be turned on (awoken) at any hour, given rations like cattle, and worked 14 hours a day. 

Apple earns an 1,710,095$ per employee.  Many tech companies are making well in excess of 400,000 per employee.  When do you think they are going to start laying off workers?  Let's see pretend I'm Apple's CEO Tim Cook, and suddenly I am making only 1.6 million per employee, that's it, layoff off the americans.  Get real, companies are in the United States because it is immensely profitable.  Even GM made 7 billion last year, and is giving each employee a huge bonus.

Let's make it clear what I am asking for:

- Companies must actually make a sincere effort to hire locals when applying for a Visa.  And must attest, under penalty of perjury, that they have done so.

Every taxpayer must attest, under penalty of perjury on their taxes, why can't corporations do the same when they ask for welfare?

Currently there IS NO requirement that a company must make a sincere effort to hire locally before getting a visa.

18,000 visas were used by offshore outsourcing companies.  Think about it, we are letting companies use Visa's to facilitate the removal of jobs.  No country on this Earth would be so stupid, except the United States, and it is a disgrace.

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Feb 23, 2012 1:54 AM Arun Arun  says:

Recently someone had sent an anonymous letter across Infosys claiming how it was over charging it's clients by 4-8% per annum against something that was related to the clients work. A lot of people got this letter and would have surely reached the top management. However it failed to talk any action against this claim.

Although everyone knows that this is an ethical violation, the clients continue to be overcharged to this day. Just a matter of time for the press to get hold of this.

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Feb 23, 2012 3:22 AM kiprn kiprn  says:

Just some random facts. Workers in China are paid around 80 cents/hr for assembling ipods. They work 12-14 hour shifts. Get to stay within the company campus with very small sleeping areas(like the bed bunks in prison cell - one up/one down). Because of such practices, Apple is able to keep the ipod cost less by ~24%.

One more thing that can be done by DOL is to increase the minimum wage that has to be paid to the H1B workers. This way the body shoppers and even the large MNCs will think twice before getting the H1Bs from other countries. The min wage concept for H1B was stopped many years back. If this is brought back, some real cut in the jobloss due to H1B workers can be seen.

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