Infosys Strives to Recast Itself as the Neighbor Across the Street

Don Tennant

As the U.S. government's criminal probe of Infosys progresses, the company appears to be quietly taking steps to portray itself as being more U.S.-friendly, and more in touch with and responsive to the market where it gets nearly two-thirds of its global revenue, and where allegations of visa and tax fraud are getting increasingly more attention.

 

India's Business Standard reported last week that Infosys Senior Vice President and Global Head of Human Resources Nandita Gurjar is relocating from Bangalore to Infosys' Plano, Texas, office for a six-month period. According to the report, Infosys Executive Co-chairman Kris Gopalakrishnan said Gurjar "is being relocated primarily to set up a proper HR function in the US and increase the local recruitment."

 

A subsequent comment piece by Saritha Rai, an India-based columnist for the UK website silicon.com, quoted Gurjar directly:

Being based away from our headquarters and on the ground where 60 per cent of our business comes from will bring a greater strategic focus [and will provide] a ground-level understanding of what areas we need to address as a global corporation.

The move comes as Infosys has reportedly formulated plans to hire as many as 1,500 U.S. workers over the next several quarters. In her piece, Rai made a reference to Infosys and other Indian companies hiring more U.S. citizens, primarily as consultants and client-facing employees, and made this observation:

This recruitment process means Indian companies are tackling the conventional wisdom that Western workers are less productive and unable to fit into global teams. As work becomes increasingly complex, these new recruits are seen as bringing to the table an understanding of the local culture and an ability to engage more effectively with clients.

Having never been immersed in the Indian tech sector, I'm not in a position to verify that the "conventional wisdom" in India is indeed that Western workers are less productive than Indian workers and are unable to fit into global teams. I will say that if you're one of those people whose knee-jerk reaction to that contention is to mindlessly post a lot of hateful, anti-Indian rhetoric, get over it. I don't want it on here, so just take a deep breath and calm down. I would, however, be interested in hearing from anyone with direct knowledge and experience who can provide an informed assessment of whether or not that is in reality the conventional wisdom in India.

 

I'm also interested in monitoring the internal changes that Infosys makes to position itself more favorably in the eyes of the U.S. government authorities who are conducting the criminal investigation of Infosys' visa-related practices, and to mount a defense against the civil lawsuit brought by Jay Palmer, the Infosys employee and whistleblower whose case prompted the government's probe.



I find it especially interesting that according to a report in India's Economic Times, Infosys has booted out Eshan Joshi, the HR executive who headed its immigration department. Here's an excerpt from that report:

Infosys has quietly replaced a key official handling immigration issues with a veteran specialist from rival Wipro, triggering talk that it may be setting its house in order after being accused of visa abuse in the US.

 

India's second-biggest software exporter has hired Vasudev Nayak, the former head of the overseas operations cell at Wipro, in place of Eshan Joshi, an associate vice-president at Infosys' human resources division and head of its immigration department, at least three people familiar with the matter told ET.

 

Joshi, an Infosys veteran of 13 years, is currently on a "sabbatical", said one of them, a company executive who requested anonymity. An Infosys spokeswoman declined to comment on Joshi's employment status. A Wipro spokeswoman confirmed that Nayak has quit the company.

No doubt, Infosys and other Indian companies know they have a monumental problem on their hands. Here's another excerpt from Rai's piece:

For Indian outsourcing companies, hiring non-Indians may be the right move in more ways than one. The visa situation with the US is "becoming sticky", according to Sean Narayanan, chief delivery officer of [IT services provider] iGate Patni.

"Becoming sticky" is quite the understatement. It's also a euphemism for "turning our world upside-down." It will be fascinating to watch Indian outsourcing companies in general, and Infosys in particular, strive to recast themselves as the neighbor across the street.



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Sep 6, 2011 2:36 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

Infosys will find that Americans are very friendly towards foreign companies that share the wealth.  Hyundai and Nissan are a great example in the auto industry.  These companies manufacture their vehicles in the United States and employee vast numbers of American workers.  We drive their vehicles, and love them.

If Infosys makes the required changes, I'll shamelessly support their company.  Foreign business should be mutually beneficial, and not so one-sided as it is today.

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Sep 6, 2011 3:12 AM Herman G. Herman G.  says: in response to R. Lawson

Comparing foreign car companies with Indian Software companies is unrealistic.

Indian Software companies rely heavily on cheap labor that is abused and dominated by management in an utter third-world style.

Western workers last only for short times in these companies and never accept the third-world conditions.

Without the wholesale acceptance of such work conditions, The Indians just cannot make the obscene profit margins the make ( while offering cut-throat competitive rates)!

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Sep 6, 2011 4:24 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Herman G.

"Indian Software companies rely heavily on cheap labor that is abused and dominated by management in an utter third-world style."

This model is quickly becoming obsolete anyways.  Indian companies have shied away from advancements in automation because it cuts deeply into their commoditized labor model.

Offshoring firms did us a favor in the sense that they have prepared us for what is to come - which will require far fewer people to solve the same business problem.  Many Americans have already adapted and learned the newer skills to compete in this space. 

I suspect that the best of times for Indian body shops are behind them.  For them to remain relevant they need to adapt.  And they will need our (American) help because we know something they haven't figured out yet - meaning how to compete when the most important factor to a client isn't labor cost.

I truly believe that Jay Palmer and this visa row is going to benefit Infosys in the long run because they are starting to make changes now required to do business in the future.  Other companies haven't had their wake up call and will find themselves ill-prepared.

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Sep 6, 2011 6:13 AM Madagasper Madagasper  says: in response to R. Lawson

Please don't compare companies like Nissan and Hyundai with a bodyshop like Infosys.  The car companies bring innovation and technology to the table.  The Indian IT companies are cheap labor sweatshops.

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Sep 6, 2011 8:04 AM Eric Eric  says: in response to Madagasper

why is no one talking about american companies like Juniper. Who bring indian employees all the time on B1 visa here to work for every few months. Right now there is an employee named Praveen V who is travelling on business visa and working here. Why is no one taking action against these companies and only finger pointing at indian companies

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Sep 6, 2011 8:22 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Eric

Because the only person who has had the guts to blow the whistle and go public with the information, Jay Palmer, works for Infosys. When will someone from Juniper and the other companies that are doing the same thing summon the courage to do what Palmer has done?

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Sep 6, 2011 11:20 AM Chamat Chamat  says:

western workers indeed cant fit in global team, mostly because of their rigid schedule and failure to work with teams from different time zones.

Also do we have any facts and figure to say "visa situation with the US is becoming sticky" is an understatement?

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Sep 6, 2011 11:24 AM Indian_tatti Indian_tatti  says: in response to Chamat

Champat..Champat...

Infosys is done and we are co-operating with FEDS internally. Infosys management threatened to kill Sikh employes, from here only all this started.

We will take Infosys to destiny.

Already 14 million loss for Infosys.

Enjoy.

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Sep 6, 2011 11:57 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says:

Just in time, fresh faces with $$$$$ to fund political campaigns to try to convince Americans that what's good for Hyderabad (world's visa fraud capital per Wikileaks cables) is good for Detroit.

Obama staffers either haven't read the most recent Mission India cables with detailed information about the extent of visa fraud or they think Americans care more about Jersey Shore than jobs.

These guys from Hyderabad make Enron look like pussycats. Here's a sample (names removed by blogger)

Wikileaks cable published 26 Aug 2011 Consulate Mumbai Mar 2009

"Indian companies appear to follow the rules of good governance, but few comply with the spirit of those standards; the biggest hindrance is companies' reluctance to appoint truly independent directors to corporate boards, who can challenge the management and finances when questions arise.

Without a robust judicial system or a more powerful regulator, our interlocutors expect little to change in the near-future.

Law firm estimates that 18 percent of the near 5,000 companies listed on the Bombay Stock Exchange are non-compliant with the listing agreement.  Besides "unadulterated greed", he has heard of promoters committing fraud to boost stock prices or to boost market expectations or influence analyst expectations of future earnings, he added.

Law firm who is, himself, an independent director on the board of several companies, claimed that many Indian listed companies do not even comply with the "letter of the law." believes that revenue fraud is "rampant" in companies. (Note: This includes discrepancies in transfer pricing and asset valuation.)  There is a thin line between tax evasion and tax avoidance, he noted.

He thought that other frauds like defrauding minority shareholders and defrauding employees are prevalent to a lesser extent.     argued that if the CEO and CFO of a company collude, neither the board nor the audit committee will find out about the fraud.

Company believes most businesses in India are run like Satyam, with little regard for true governance. Shareholders are unconcerned as long as the company's stock continues to appreciate. Nevertheless, he does not expect corporate fraud to be discovered in other companies because there is too much at stake, and not because they are without blame. The government, he said, is not prepared to take the risk of more embarrassing disclosures. As long as shareholders make money, no one cares, he added. "

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Sep 6, 2011 12:04 PM Madagasper Madagasper  says:

Don,

That "conventional wisdom" bit made me laugh.  But then I was left rolling on the floor laughing when I read about the Indian claim that Indian workers are more productive than Western workers.

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Sep 6, 2011 12:30 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

And so much for the Indian technical education system...

Indian Universities Flunk Global Rankings

The 2011 QS World University Rankings ranks the University of Cambridge in first place, followed by Harvard, MIT and Yale. Just three Indian universities made it on the list of the world's top 300 universities: IIT-Delhi (218), IIT-Bombay (225), IIT-Madras (281)

www.biggerindia.com/education/9766-indian-university-perform-poorly-in-global-rankings.html

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Sep 7, 2011 2:10 AM chm chm  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

>>>The claim by the outsourcing shills is that Indian technical schools are equal to, if not superior to American technical schools. This survey shows that Indian technical education is far behind Western technical schools. You can draw your conclusions about the quality of work produced by such technical graduates. >>>

No, the point here is much bigger than the ranks you see here.

Just because your schools are ranked better does not mean all your students come out better. That is the whole point about outsourcing.

If you go by rank probably every facility in US will be ranked better than what 3rd world is getting. Irrespective of the fact a student in 3rd world just reading C++ book from library (probably doing illegal xerox copies of those books and then reading in the night with in a candle light because he doesn't have electricity in home) might come out knowing C++ much better than your graduates. How can you judge exactly, without having a competition between these 2?

Beleive me, totally uneducated people in India, who never ever went to school and sells vegetables in dirty streetsides on Indian roads can do better calculations than any nice college graduates who stands in any counter who probably can't imagne to add up 2+3 without a calculator.

Note: my point here is not to let everyone in US labor market. Whether to protect US workforce from any cheap labor from outsiders is totally different topic. Just because US economy is better it doesn't mean they will open their doors for every outsiders. I'm not discussing that. I'm just talking about your ignorance and how you want to imagine how you are best just because your rankings said so. If you go by your rankings probably for next 100 years all your educational institutes will be in top. That doesn't mean every one of you are the best. That is the problem with "anything on top". Just because of your dad gave you million $ doesn't make you better than a self established person who earns 100$ a day, but all the spoiled brats protected by 'something' thinks that way.

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Sep 7, 2011 2:34 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to chm

How would India feel if their jobs were outsourced higher or lower ranked students in Vietnam, Bangladesh, or China?

Charity begins at home. It doesn't matter if you are best and brightest or dumb and dullest.

Citizens in every country should have a fair chance to compete for good jobs with living wages in their own country - period.

Loopholes in US H-1b visa laws allow employers to discriminate against Americans, and force us to train our foreign replacements.  Employers can recruit exclusively offshore, legally, for jobs in this country and bypass highly qualified American candidates who want the job without penalty.

This is WRONG. India wouldn't like it if this happened there. US workers impacted by this abuse don't like it either.  

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Sep 7, 2011 2:51 AM nightmare but true nightmare but true  says: in response to Jobs4US

In fact his is already coming true....the indian blood suckers are already scouting africa, middle east and south east asia for more labour arbitrage.... this will happen before even people realize what is in store for them....

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Sep 7, 2011 3:02 AM chm chm  says: in response to Jobs4US

It is not about a person feeling good or bad - all persons are same to some extent. So it is not about americans won't feel anything and Indians will welcome every one. So you are true 100%. Americans might be more open minded to welcome outsiders than Indians will do the same.

India has seen a lot more intrution into their wealth than anyone else. I'm sure no one liked that in India. However it is not their choice which will decide every course of action.

"Citizens in every country should have a fair chance to compete for good jobs with living wages in their own country - period" >>>

It is not that simple. US pokes its nose every where. They are not that innocent peaceful country and want to live peacefully within their own bounderies. In order to do whatever US is doing, everything become too much complex and messy. You can't really pick and choose and say where to stay simple and when to become complex. This is in general one problem with US. Not all time and every time they can dictate others what to do and what not to do.

So not only with India or China etc (as Roy Lawson said once he is okay with business with similar economy) why don't you keep only bilateral ties with Europe and stay away from rest of the World? You can't really say I'll only allow Japanese car, Korean television, European labor, Mexican DJ and so on.... It is not upto you (at least not so simple) to pick and choose.

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Sep 7, 2011 3:09 AM chm chm  says: in response to nightmare but true

all you said is true but it is not "Indian blood suckers" or anything like that.

You can call the type in general global blood suckers

America as an country has never been so innocent. They might be leader of blood suckers and promoters of blood sucking more than anyone else in World. Just because few of you lost jobs to Indians doesn't make Indians master of all evils.

Don't give them undue credit - they are too small player and economy in the game, they have much bigger power and competitors in economy who play the game too well

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Sep 7, 2011 3:24 AM chm chm  says: in response to Jobs4US

"force us to train our foreign replacements" >>>

You are too much pre-occupied by this fact may be because of your own personal experience but this statement is totally wrong the way it sounds. You don't really train anyone here. Don't tell knowledge transfering as training. What you do is handover responsibilities with in 1-6months time frame and handing over something which might be very specific to your company's business as usual. Even a fresh US employee who joins any company goes through many learning curves - what's wrong in that?Consider these Indian guys same as your company's own resource - they might be just contractors but still in the process of becoming part of your company's day to day work.

Other than that you never train anyone here. That is job of your teachers in schools. Management never replaces a fully functional workforce with a someone totally zero knowledge and start from scratch. Then it would have bene someone from Africa and not from India.

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Sep 7, 2011 4:02 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to chm

Then it would have bene someone from Africa and not from India.

Can you elaborate what you mean by this statement ? I'm curious.

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Sep 7, 2011 4:07 AM chm chm  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

If someone is claiming cheapness is only factor and American people actually training someone from scratch and then preparing them to replace american jobs, as a manger following that model I'd rather go to Somalia to get those resources, why to pay Indians 60$ per hour to replace someone with 75$ per hour when you can do the same with 5$per hour.

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Sep 7, 2011 5:09 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to chm

It does not matter if Indian universities are crap compared to American ones..to do basic programming aka the code monkey you do not need to pass out of any university..all you need is some common sense and logic. And as the code monkey from India will work a lot harder coming from a poverty stricken country,the code monkey in the US cannot compete.

Why do you think manufacturing in the US keeps on disappearing?..the mindless drone working on the line in China will work cheaper and harder than the mindless drone sitting in Michigan.

It does not matter if all visas are cancelled..certain jobs are never coming back to the US..deal with it and retrain yourself so that you are ahead of the curve.

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Sep 7, 2011 6:30 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to samsara

Indian visa worker submits a fake resume with all kinds of talent and exerience for a job.

American worker submits an honest resume for the same job.

Indian visa worker is hired.

American worker repeats the same resume mistake over and over again and keeps losing to Indian Visa workers. American worker remains unemployed.

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Sep 7, 2011 6:38 AM Web Design Outsourcing Web Design Outsourcing  says:

Nicely presented information in this post, I prefer to read this kind of stuff. The quality of content is fine and the conclusion is good. Thanks for the post.

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Sep 7, 2011 7:28 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to hire american

American Worker

  • Continues to search for work without success despite state of the art skills, education, and experience
  • Loses job, home, healthcare, life savings because they were raised in a world where ethics, law, skill, achievement and professional reputation matter.
  • Spends time on this blog trying to get someone to listen, no one does
  • Tries in vain to get state, local and federal elected officials and agencies serving we the people to take action, nothing happens
  • Had great hopes for President Obama, realizes his life was a lot better under Bush.
  • Spends hours trying to reach bank for Making Home Affordable, only gets disconnected or insulted by call center thugs who tell them just get a job.
  • Tries reach unemployment but can't because system is overloaded.
  • Loses home and unemployment.
  • Finds out President covertly interpreted visa law in end run around Congress to admit even more visa workers to take more US jobs
  • Doesn't see how more visa workers creates US jobs
  • Wonders if decision makers have ever met a real unemployed American tech pro in crisis
  • Is shocked to read new US embassy cables that spell out that his government has known for years the extent of corporate visa fraud going and why nothing has been done about it

American worker wonders what happened to their country and if any hope remains.

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Sep 7, 2011 7:57 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

And so much for US legal system...

Kids can have gun.....can shoot @ classmate guess what...he can walk free too....and you expect Infosys to be punished!!! So many mistrials on crimnal cases are there in US....after close to 200yrs of freedom still struggling to have working legal system where criminals gets punished not victims.Clean you back before pointing finger at others...Don't bring up unrelated useless topic which is adds no value to this blog or any readers here.

Brandon, 14, wasn't working on his paper, because he told Mrs. Boldrin he'd finished it. Instead, he opened a history book and started to read. Or at least he pretended to. "He kept looking over at Larry," says a student who was in the class that morning. "He'd look at the book and look at Larry, and look at the book and look at Larry." At 8:30 a.m., a half hour into class, Brandon quietly stood up. Then, without anyone's noticing, he removed a handgun that he had somehow sneaked to school, aimed it at Larry's head, and fired a single shot. Boldrin, who was across the room looking at another student's work, spun around. "Brandon, what the hell are you doing!" she screamed. Brandon fired at Larry a second time, tossed the gun on the ground and calmly walked through the classroom door. Police arrested him within seven minutes, a few blocks from school. Larry was rushed to the hospital, where he died two days later of brain injuries.

thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/mistrial-officially-declared-in-shooting-hate-crime-murder-trial-of-15-year-old/discrimination/2011/09/02/26267

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Sep 7, 2011 8:01 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to jobs4us

And is this big copy past work of you has anything to do with this blog ?

Got it...you don't see much fire here and the comments are not flooding against Infosys and Indians.....and according to you this falls under Troll.....

Read what blogger wants here...."I will say that if you're one of those people whose knee-jerk reaction to that contention is to mindlessly post a lot of hateful, anti-Indian rhetoric, get over it. I don't want it on here, so just take a deep breath and calm down. I would, however, be interested in hearing from anyone with direct knowledge and experience who can provide an informed assessment of whether or not that is in reality the conventional wisdom in India."

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Sep 7, 2011 8:37 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Madagasper

No. It's a regurgitation of my previous reporting.

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Sep 7, 2011 9:10 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Sam

"unrelated" ? Maybe you need the obvious stated clearly: Outsourcing and offshoring companies like Infosys et al tout their technical expertise drawn from Indian technical schools. The claim by the outsourcing shills is that Indian technical schools are equal to, if not superior to American technical schools. This survey shows that Indian technical education is far behind Western technical schools. You can draw your conclusions about the quality of work produced by such technical graduates.

Do you see the relevance now ?

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Sep 7, 2011 9:32 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Eric

I agree with Don, Eric.  You know the guys name.  You should know the 800 fraud hotline.  You certainly know how to contact Don or many of us if you need to know what to do.  If you know there is fraud going on and have proof blow the whistle.

If you're not willing to do it give me the evidence and I'll do it for you.  Just create an email account and send EVERYTHING to me anonymously.  Nobody has to know who you are.

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Sep 7, 2011 9:37 AM Pro Pro  says: in response to Don Tennant

How can one tip off or report anonymously? Will the DOJ investigate the tip offs? There are over 800 postings on a single Indian jobs website requesting candidates with valid B1 visa, isn't that enough proof for DOJ to investigate? It's just shocking that the fraud is being done so openly!

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Sep 7, 2011 9:42 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to hire american

If Indian worker is totally inept then obviously he won't be able to do the job and will get fired right? unless the level of work even if below the American worker is still offset by the cheaper labor. This is what I said in my first post..some work in IT and manufacturing are never coming back. It is simply too expensive to do them in America.

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Sep 7, 2011 10:50 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to samsara

Not exactly.  Don't think firing / laying off a visa worker as that easy.

The law requires companies to provide protections to H-1b visa holders that it does not need to give to Americans.

This is why MSFT laid off 5000 Americans and 0 H-1b.   It is not a matter of skill or performance, I understand its more a matter of money and legal fees.  Laid off workers would be out of status and would need to be deported immediately at the employer's expense.

I wish I could get an H-1b visa, its a sweet deal. Unfortunately Americans are not eligible.

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Sep 7, 2011 11:03 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Jobs4US

I wish I could get an H-1b visa, its a sweet deal. Unfortunately Americans are not eligible.

This could be the Catch 22 for the New Millenium(tm) i.e you could renounce your US citizenship and then reenter the country on an H1 visa (of course you would have to be able to obtain citizenship of another country first to avoid being in limbo). But the catch would be that renouncing US citizenship might be grounds for denial  of a US entry visa.

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Sep 7, 2011 11:34 AM Jake_Leone Jake_Leone  says: in response to Chamat

What you are saying is just troll-bigot-bait.

Look I have been on an international dev team, for more than eleven years.  And have had no problem with getting up in the middle of the night (3AM, 1AM... you name it) to help co-workers (citizens of other countries).

And that is true of everyone in our dev group.

So don't spread lies, because you don't know, and you don't have a clue.

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Sep 7, 2011 11:54 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Sam

As far as I'm concerned India's rules are India's business, and as long as they do not harm people in India or adversely impact the USA, it is none of my business.

However, I am outraged that President Obama and Congress have done NOTHING to fix loopholes in fraud-ridden corporate visa laws that have cost so many American tech workers' careers-despite having concrete intelligence, for years, from its own agencies charged with managing these programs.    

According to another Chennai Embassy 2009 cable, B1/B2 visas rank #1 for NIV fraud cases  - and the FPU (fraud protection unit) confirmed fraud in over 50% of adjudicated cases. 

The Embassy warned US leaders that claims that many companies in India play by their own rules instead of the letter of the law and that NIV and other types of fraud are systemic and culturally acceptable as long as the stock price appreciates.

Is Infosys recasting itself as a neighbor an effort to "influence" industry and political leaders to their interpretation of US law to improve their margins to undercut both H-1b and American wages?

Satyam got caught and prosecuted.  Infosys got caught.  The courts will decide its fate.

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Sep 7, 2011 11:59 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Pro

I'm not sure that B1 visa fraud falls under the DOJ.  Who can I contact to report thousands of B1 jobs we capture?  

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Sep 7, 2011 12:32 PM Madagasper Madagasper  says: in response to Don Tennant
Sep 8, 2011 1:38 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to ITJob

No. You got it wrong. They are NOT living for Americans.

Jose Antonio Vargas, an illegal alien, is roaming free in the halls of the senate office buildings in Washington DC, attending Senate hearings on immigration issues. That is how bad it is in Washington DC :P

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Sep 8, 2011 2:24 AM sam sam  says: in response to Jobs4US

"American Worker

Continues to search for work without success despite state of the art skills, education, and experience"

     If a person has start of art skills, education and experience he/she will create job rather look for one.It doesn't mean they don't but they never think they can create job by under estimating their own ability.

"Loses job, home, healthcare, life savings because they were raised in a world where ethics, law, skill, achievement and professional reputation matter."

     You seem to have lack of experience and knowledge other than Americayou presume those qualities are only belongs to America

"Spends time on this blog trying to get someone to listen, no one does"

     And why spend time (to me it is called wasting time..which is fine when you get bored after long working hours but not when you don't have job) here instead of your elected officials office.And do you mean whoever comments here has no job and looking for one here in this blog?

     Do you really think spending time in blogs will resolve your problem?I think it is the problem with your way of resolving the problem.

     If at all the blogger listen to you what he can do about it?This is not the place your elected officials look for your view.

"Tries in vain to get state, local and federal elected officials and agencies serving we the people to take action, nothing happens"

     If your elected officials were raised in a world where ethics, law, skill, achievement and professional reputation matter why you have issue in making them understand the issue.

     You are trying to say every employee is saint and rests of those in US are evil.

     How about you guys (who complains about elected officials) take those jobs.just complaining won't solve the problem.If you see an elected official can fix a problem and not doing his job it is open for everyone to grab that position and help people.

     All you will do is just post comments across different blogs and say "I am done my job of raising issue" and it is now elected officials to look around blogs and find my comments to resolve the issue.

     I don't think you will ever get anything out of elected officials by posting comments in blog.

"Had great hopes for President Obama, realizes his life was a lot better under Bush."

     I don't get what you are trying to say herelife is not just a flip switch...you need to seed now to harvest latter.Whatever got seeded by Bush administration is what we are harvesting now.Your statement best example of how ignorant you are, god only can SAVE America with people like you sitting around.

"Spends hours trying to reach bank for Making Home Affordable, only gets disconnected or insulted by call center thugs who tell them just get a job."

     

     Again those call center people were also raised in a world where ethics, law, skill, achievement and professional reputation matter.One of my sister work as customer care exec in a Bank, she is not part of thugs who takes millions as salary....they speaks what the bank wants them to speak. Reply

Sep 8, 2011 2:24 AM sam sam  says: in response to Jobs4US
They are there to tell what bank wants to tell you.You won't become hero by calling them thugs and I get to hear some of her bad experience on working with thugs like you in the name of customer.

     To me it is your responsibility to pay the loanthat is what you agreed to do when you apply for it, just because you lost the job doesn't mean you should be out-off the agreement.Don't forget those loan is not money from the bankit is from someone who saved his/her money for retirement.You just took someone else money to buy a home and now you want them to forgive your loan.

"Tries reach unemployment but can't because system is overloaded."

     It is overloaded with 150% increase in applications which was not anticipated and cannot be handled with same level of employees.there are millions receiving unemployment benefit for 99 weeks and congress is working (if not already) to extend this.You need have patient when everyone is in trouble otherwise be prepared for disasters like this.

Loses home and unemployment.

     If you can't afford it don't buy it.I have seen people who are in temporary job bought home with belief they can flip around and make huge profit (in peak housing market) and got stuck in bigger mortgage and home they can't afford.

Why do we need so many different schemes to buy a home? Fixed, ARM (3,5,7,10), Interest Only.

Other than Fixed rest of the schemes are recipe of financial disaster and that to if someone gone for mortgage which needs more than 25-30% of my Annual income (not temporary job) then that is best recipe of financial disaster for them.

I had bought (I don't own it yet ?) a home 11 years backstarted with 30yr Fixed (with 10% down payment) for interest rate of 6.5%....now refinanced for 3.25% fixed for 15yrs.I made sure I get a home which fits my budget (monthly payment not more than 25% of my annual income).I could have easily gone for double the size (many friends suggested for that) of my current home with around 35% of my annual income as mortgage payment.

Instead from the 1st payment I put aside 5% (excluding my emergency fund savings) of my annual income for home mortgage (safety net for tough times) just to make sure without job I can pay and support my family for a year.

If you lose your home within 6 months (after using all available options) of your job lose then you are not financially responsible that is plain and simple.

I was working for past 20yrs and I can support my family (3kids) for 2 years without my job (and without touching my emergency fund) including paying my mortgage and with no serious impact in our life style.If we stay without things not in our need list we can live for 3yrs without a job.

Problem with your thought is you don't' want to plan for anything.You will do all sort of things which get you into financial disaster and expect everyone other than you to help you out of it.If no one helped you then you will call them as "thugs"

Do you think it is fare for you to ask someone to carry your baggage just because you don't want to?

Are you not part of those who were raised in a world where ethics, law, skill, achievement and professional reputation matter?If you are then, you won't face such financial disaster.losing job won't get you into financial disasteryour unplanned life style gets you into.

     

Finds out President covertly interpreted visa law in end run around Congress to admit even more visa workers to take more US jobs

     It is not President who admit anyoneit is USCIS who approves it and he cannot increase or decrease the number without congress approval. Reply

Sep 8, 2011 2:24 AM sam sam  says: in response to Jobs4US
May be you got confused with illegal immigrants issue.

Doesn't see how more visa workers creates US jobs

     Yep they dobut in negative way.

Wonders if decision makers have ever met a real unemployed American tech pro in crisis

     Again you blame others for everythingyou never realized those people are part of your world were "raised in a world where ethics, law, skill, achievement and professional reputation matter".

     If you don't belong to your world then don't elect them and cry foul in blogs (so much of these blogs now daysevery person working in IT thinks this is the place all issues gets resolved!!!!)

Is shocked to read new US embassy cables that spell out that his government has known for years the extent of corporate visa fraud going and why nothing has been done about it.

Because, you never wanted to work in those government agencies which pays less than your private job but has more authority which can affect everyone.Instead you let someone with less integrity take those jobs (which pay less) and you enjoyed your private job earnings and now started complaining about their inability to listen and fix this issue.

     Learn to see your issues within you before showing fingers on others.

American worker wonders what happened to their country and if any hope remains.

     Except few most of the workers knows what happened to this country and facing the issue because they kept just watching instead of stopping it.

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Sep 8, 2011 2:25 AM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to hire american

At least you can agree they are Americans....right ?

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Sep 8, 2011 2:31 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to samsara

Indian workers are inept....projects drag on and on :P. But someone above gets a huge bribe so the saga continues :P

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Sep 8, 2011 2:35 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to Jobs4US

"Doesn't see how more visa workers creates US jobs"

More visa workers mean more barber jobs, waiter/waitress jobs etc.

The American tech worker can get retrained for those jobs and wait on the Indian visa workers :P

Our politicians like Charles Schumer ain't lying when they say immigration creates jobs...Hahahaha...

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Sep 8, 2011 2:53 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to hire american

Most of these look Indian to me....

Do you know these top 10 Michigan Medicare fraud fugitives?

www.freep.com/article/20110901/NEWS06/110901049/www.oig.hhs.gov/fraud/fugitives

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Sep 8, 2011 4:18 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Jobs4US

Wrong..the employer does not have to pay for deportation of the H1 employee. They only have to pay for the plane ticket home.

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Sep 8, 2011 4:57 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to ITJob

Who knows who they are? I have serious doubts about them, especially after seeing Jose Anotonio Vargas roaming the Senate office building/s like he owns the place/s :P

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Sep 8, 2011 8:19 AM IndianTechie IndianTechie  says: in response to Madagasper

Well an Indian worker puts 9 to 9 and a western worker puts  9 to 6. Have u seenthe work schedules of Indian techies.. some of them put 60- 70- hrs per week on site. But to give a correct perspective if Germany had work opprtunities open for US workers and was paying twice the market pay but 70 hrs of slogging per week, Im sure US workers would sign up for that as well.

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Sep 8, 2011 8:21 AM Born in the USA Born in the USA  says: in response to sam

Sam... your response is full of deflection, broad accusation and straw man arguments.

It couldn't possibly be the thief's fault. The door was wide open and that makes it okay, right?

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Sep 8, 2011 8:25 AM techie@techie.com techie@techie.com  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

For all those guys who get a kick by denigrating standards of education in India or the capabilities of Indian techies...

If Indian Schools are bad and Indian Techies are bad..why are u guys so worked up on the issue of outsourcing.

Wait for a few more decades and by the time you retire companies will realize that Indian techies are sub standard and turn back and recurit your children or may be grand children.

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Sep 8, 2011 8:27 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to IndianTechie

Well an Indian worker puts 9 to 9 and a western worker puts 9 to 6. Have u seenthe work schedules of Indian techies.. some of them put 60- 70- hrs per week on site. I suggest you look up the term karoshi

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi

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Sep 8, 2011 8:34 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to techie@techie.com

Wait for a few more decades and by the time you retire companies will realize that Indian techies are sub standard and turn back and recurit your children or may be grand children.

Yes, because obviously the right thing to do when you see your house burning is to sit around and wait for the fire to die down on its own. No point in calling the fire department or doing any such sensible thing, right ?

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Sep 8, 2011 8:36 AM techie@techie.com techie@techie.com  says: in response to R. Lawson

Yeah keeping buying those toyotas and hyundais and hondas and kias. They are great examples. They create American jobs. Put GM and Ford on a permanent life line. America wins Hyundai is creating jobs.

Hyundai is a Korean company which will enrich Korea. They will do just enough not to kill the American goose. It is people like u who have left America down. Buying cheap stuff under one pretext or the other. 20 million illegals in this country and 300 million Americans who shamelessly hire them to work. Itz like prostitution. Soliciting is illegal both ways.

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Sep 8, 2011 8:40 AM techie@techie.com techie@techie.com  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

"Wait for a few more decades and by the time you retire companies will realize that Indian techies are sub standard and turn back and recurit your children or may be grand children. "

That was sarcasm my friend.

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Sep 8, 2011 8:41 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to techie@techie.com

So was my comment.

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Sep 8, 2011 8:44 AM techie@tyechie.com techie@tyechie.com  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

"Karoshi" ..feel like laughing..u know there is a lot of ur countrymen signing up to work as contractors in places like Iraq. Just for 20-30,000 $ more than what they would get to work in a nice air conditioned office where people are not out to kill them. Cheese attracts mice. Does not matter if it is american mice or indian mice.

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Sep 8, 2011 8:48 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to techie@tyechie.com

Sure they are signing up. They know the risks. Beats dying on your steatopygic rear end tapping on a keyboard at 2 am in the morning. What are you going to say next ? That people becoming fire fighters and police officers are morons for picking high risk professions ?

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Sep 8, 2011 10:31 AM Uday Uday  says: in response to Herman G.

I think it is a fair assessment.. Working with offshore teams require that you need to wake up early and take calls in morning and than in the late night around 10-11 PM you need to take other round of calls.. Not an easy task. Also you need to ship a lot of work in more written forms.. This is a challenging job from that perspective

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Sep 8, 2011 10:55 AM sam sam  says: in response to hire american

You seem to be the main Troll in these blogs....

You never ever stayed on topic of the blog and always provoke others by your hate comments, you are one of the worst people a blogger can have in his comments section.

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Sep 8, 2011 11:23 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Uday

It is something to note that working late nights and night schedules regularly plays havoc with one's circadian rhythm. Expect bad news from your next health check... blod sugar and hypertension especially. There was a note about this recently in the news

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Sep 8, 2011 11:52 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to sam

Yeah, well....truth always hurts.

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Sep 8, 2011 12:40 PM ITJob ITJob  says: in response to hire american

I got you big list of fugitives who decides everyones life in US

www.house.gov/representatives/

fixing those 500 will fix every issue in US.

And by the way all 500 are fortunately Americans...and living for Americans.

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Sep 9, 2011 1:36 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to hire american

I meant 70 hours per week and 35 hours per week

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Sep 9, 2011 1:50 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

You cannot worry about karashi when you are from a third world country....the code monkey from India will always work more than the code monkey from America and the mindless drone in China will always work harder than the mindless drone in Michigan. This is the effect of the globalization proposed and put into effect by American companies and politicians since the 70's.

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Sep 9, 2011 3:30 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to samsara

Yes, the code monkey may work longer hours. But considering the local infrastructural issues of power, transportation etc and the questionable qualifications of many such code monkeys, I doubt for the most part whether the final product is actually better in the final analysis. To borrow from the Project Triangle metaphor, "Good, Fast, Cheap, Pick Any Two", the code monkeys fulfill the cheap part. The rest... YMMV.

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Sep 9, 2011 4:05 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to samsara

Are you saying slavery is alive and well ? :P

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Sep 9, 2011 5:06 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says:

I haven't read all the comments yet so I'm skipping all the bashing.Since Don wanted some information, let me see if I can give one man's perspective:

>>I would, however, be interested in hearing from anyone with direct knowledge and experience who can provide an informed assessment of whether or not that is in reality the conventional wisdom in India.

yes, to a large extent this seems to be the case.It's not because anyone hates americans or thinks too lowly about it.It's a cultural thing and I will explain why.In the Indian IT industry, we live to work.It's part of the system.The culture is always forcing you to be "better than the other guy"- better grades, better school, better college, better company, better pay, better house, better car etc and all what Solomon refers to as vanity.I hate that mentality now but back then, it was part of our DNA.

When I started my IT career, I used to work like a dog.Sit late nights, sleep in the office dorm (yes, lots of offices have dorms for people who want to work late).A 10 to 10 daily routine was normal and part of the system.Weekends were generally free so that's when I actually saw sun set.But for me, working was also enjoyment since I loved programming and have been doing it since I was a kid so I was one of those crazy guys who stayed late in the office so that I could buy pizza at company's expense and code.The onsite team knew I was there so I enjoyed the attention.Besides, with the Bangalore traffic, it made sense to only leave after peak hours - after 8ish (I love like an hour away).

Come 2007 and my company has an urgent requirement because someone in another department left the company and no one filled the spot for sometime and it was affecting the whole department which had integration plans lined up for the new quarter.So I changed teams and joined this department and I came to the US.I didn't want to come here because the general steriotype was that the real development happens offshore (our company did some cool stuff unlike the general drudge work that is offshored) and certainly didn't want to stay here for a long time because of other steriotypes.Besides, I was pretty close to my family and friends thought of this as a short vacation to see my relatives who I had never met in a long long time.My uncle told my mom "this kid is gone for good.say good bye." And my mom shrugged it off with a laugh.Now she always tells me that story.

When I first got here, my American boss gave me some stuff to do.The difference I noticed was that in India, I would get a 5 day assignment and they would give me 2 days to finish it whereas over here, they would give me a 2 day assignment and give me 5 days to finish it.I felt really bad because I thought that they thought I was totally incompetent.I was the only Indian in the team so I thought they probably had a steriotype that I wasn't good and they were playing safe with me.So I started doing stuff fast and asking for more.But slowly I noticed that everyone takes their own sweet time delivering stuff that's otherwise easy (I can understand to a certain extent because there are processes for deployment and all but some of things that took time were just funny).There was another British senior manager and he knew where I came from.We became good friends and I learned that he made a game for Blackberry in his free time so I wanted to become his disciple and fall down at his feet because I thought that anyone who can make games for mobile devices must be an alpha programmer (the other manager was boring because his IDE was excel and powerpoint). Reply

Sep 9, 2011 5:06 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says:
Anyway, he quickly started working with my American boss to get me do some real stuff.Some of my good american coworker friends in their mid 30s to 40s (there not that many young guys here) noticed this and told me to slow down in a nice way..take my time, focus on quality, documentation ...all that stuff which is is needed but sometimes overkill.I was like....ooooookay.They were good...but slow to adopt or change or get things moving.I think it's maybe that corporate IT culture.

This was my first experience and it got me telling all my Indian friends who were developers or wearing some other IT hat that America is a straight 9-5 country.People come at exactly 9:00 and leave at 4:59 PM.They couldn't believe that there was a life like this in IT.Ofcourse, this is an inaccurate steriotype because the middle class for example, isn't like that at all and many agile shops aren't either.

I slowly understood how things worked in other departments, client's offices etc over the years - there were some veterans who owned departments and processes and never allowed them to be changed.I was flabbergasted when I joined a new team in 2009 that started a project that does a lot of financial transactions using classic ASP and uses file i/o to store transactions (instead of database and threading).And they don't want things to change too because they knew that that was their life line to keeping the job.I came in along with a few other people from the justice league to destroy this system and start from scratch using technology from startrek.Anyway, those were some of my experiences from the golden years.I have some other cool experiences though with great black hole belt ninja programmers and vice presidents (Americans) who banged the keyboard to write their own code.Both sets of stories are shared with friends back to India.I guess it depends on who are you, who you meet and what kind of environment you work in.

After sometime, my biggest fear came true - you get so sucked into this system...I met a beautiful lovely American girl and even though I'm a total idiot when it comes to the girl thing, I set aside my laptops for her.We got married and now live happily ever after.I hate to admit it but computers aren't everything

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Sep 9, 2011 5:14 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

If the final product is not even worth the minimal quality requirement then new work would not go to the 3 rd world code monkeys but that is not the case..even if quality is less it is obviously offset by the cheaper costs which is why outsourcing continues.

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Sep 9, 2011 9:47 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to sam

"sam" writes like a hostile foreign worker who grew up in a dog-eat-dog third world country and wants us to have to live like that, too. He is not above cheap shots and untruths to attack us, either. 

A big part of winning our country back consists of NOT listening to people like this, not wasting time on them, and instead thinking about what our people and our country need and strategizing to heal our society from the damage that's been done. Because people like "sam" certainly aren't going to do that. We have to. Plug your ears with cotton if you have to.

One illustration of what I'm talking about is the story of Nehemiah in the Old Testament. (Nehemiah, chapters 2-6) Those who opposed him kept trying to engage him, to psychologically hook him and weaken him, but he refused to give them his time and energy and instead kept going at what he was supposed to be doing.

Now is a great time for us to rebuild, given the general awareness among Americans of the need to regain jobs at all levels in our society. Globalism has been a failed experiment and the results are all around for everyone to see. We need to turn inward and rebuild our land for ourselves and our fellow citizens.

And then, if we respond at all to folks like "sam" it needs to be something along the lines of Nehemiah 2:20.

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Sep 9, 2011 10:08 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to samsara

Outsourcing continues mainly because in the weird disconnect of the software industry, it is run by people who have no understanding of software their own company makes. I speak from personal experience. Most CEOs are business and law majors. At least in the US.

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Sep 9, 2011 10:12 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

Interesting. I guess you should thank  the "laid back" American work schedules that allowed you to get out of the office.. If you had been been working in India , you'd probably have been still single and working till midnight or beyond.

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Sep 9, 2011 10:21 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

haha, you're right. But in India we have plan 'A'.  'A' for Arranged marriage .i.e

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Sep 9, 2011 11:52 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to IndianTechie

Yes, the Indian Visa workers are on their laptops for 70 + hours a day, but I see them surfing websites like myvisajobs.com or immigrationvoice.com half of the time. So, in effect they work about 35 hours a day :P

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Sep 9, 2011 12:20 PM Mr. Logical Mr. Logical  says: in response to hire american

But a day has only 24 hours!!!

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Sep 10, 2011 1:07 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

You never answered my question..are Americans thieves and robbers for destroying the lives of millions of people in Mexico,Latin America,Shah's Iran, Vietnam, etc in the name of globalization and free market principles?

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Sep 10, 2011 1:31 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

I don't need to answer it. I need to think good and hard about what to do about the problems my people and my community are facing. I didn't invent globalism, I didn't push it on anyone, and neither did most Americans. But we do need to drop it now like a hot potato and I would suggest that you do so as well. Oh wait, that would mean no longer salivating for an American job. I see your problem letting go here. But it's your problem, we have plenty of our own right now.

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Sep 10, 2011 1:47 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

But Americans did invent globalization and they did push it on the world. History cannot be rewritten. It is what is.

No..I do not salivate for an American job, I do not work for an American company nor am I based in America though I do visit regularly.Don't worry I do not need a visa to visit so no abuse from me!!

However it is funny to hear the complaints from a section of the American population now that the wheel they invented and used to run over other countries has turned a full cycle.

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Sep 10, 2011 2:48 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Dolores

Bravo!  Thought provoking and well said. Thank you. 

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Sep 10, 2011 4:50 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

As we say in America, "That was then, this is now." Anyone who's looking to send Americans a bill for the havoc of globalism is too late: we're broke now. Time for something new. The wheel of fortune turns for everyone, even the US. Don't be surprised if we end up back on top again in some surprising way. But we cannot rise again if we're carrying the weight of the whole world, so we need to back away from globalism.

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Sep 10, 2011 6:53 AM Madagasper Madagasper  says: in response to Dolores

We are not broke.  This is a persistent myth.  What we need is a strict oversight over who we let into our workforce.  What we don't need are code writing drones of average and below-average ability which is what 99% of the Indian H1b visa holders are.

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Sep 10, 2011 8:32 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

I guess Plan A accounts for why tech workers in India can work round the clock... no need for getting out of the office for socializing or finding a significant other.

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Sep 10, 2011 9:32 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Most CEO's in every industry are run by business majors..and there has to be a balance between quality and cost for the product to sell. Obviously the quality is enough for outsourcing to go on.

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Sep 10, 2011 9:40 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

Ha..Dolores, the fact is that you are venting your anger at the wrong people. Globalization is an American invention and American companies and politicians have arm twisted and at times shed blood to force other countries to accept it.

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Sep 10, 2011 9:43 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

yeah, and I used to tell everyone that I was  'proud to be a looser'.

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Sep 10, 2011 10:04 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

None of us care about that now. America has always been on America's side as you point out, and if we start down one road we can always change course. Watch us.

My fellow Americans: we don't owe the third world our lives, or land, our jobs, or anything. Just because some of our leaders thought globalism was a good idea doesn't mean any of us are bound to go on embracing it, especially now that it's laid such a big egg. Never mind the past. We have to change course now. Our elected leaders have been taking us for granted. We need to make ourselves heard louder than the deep-pocket lobbyists.

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Sep 10, 2011 10:39 AM hire american hire american  says: in response to samsara

Those countries have benefitted immensely from Globalization. Life in those countries is waaaay better than it used to be 10 years ago. Globalization created new millionaires and billionaires in those countries.

The US has shared enough if it's wealth. Now, time to hunker down and take care of our own.

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Sep 10, 2011 11:29 AM DD DD  says: in response to Dolores

If that is the case, why you even bother fellow americans, go to some country side make your own farm and live happily. Why you need car, TV, internet etc when you cant manufacture them?

Bottomline is you need luxury without any contribution, which is not going to happen in today's world no matter how much you yell. World has changed and so are the rules, perform or perish!

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Sep 10, 2011 11:51 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to DD

We perform just fine. America was the world's unchallenged leader in science, technology, engineering and innovation - before the onslaught of the H-1B and the rest of the alphabet soup of guestworker visas. We can remember better times, before globalism. And we have not forgotten.

If the rules can change, they can change again to something else. And they need to, or there won't be an America. Americans, don't let them make you feel like someone made them a promise that you now have to keep. Not so!

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Sep 10, 2011 11:57 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Dolores

I couldn't agree with you more.  We need to we get your message out to American voters by targeting influencers in aligned organizations and media. Any thoughts who to target? 

Political parties and candidates

Organized labor

Faith based organizations

HuffPo

Local media

Advocacy groups

Others?

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Sep 10, 2011 12:07 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to jobs4us

The Hill. Definitely The Hill. And our message needs to be about the intelligence, energy, and skill of American workers that has been going to waste.

We have been kicked out of professions we pretty much invented, by skilled re-writers of history. While we have been called racists for daring to criticise foreign workers, this blog entry by Don shows that they've been passing around and promoting far uglier and more damaging stereotypes than anything we've ever said about them.

And you are hearing an echo of that every time you hear some politician or pundit assume that there is something wrong with American workers. Do the foreign workers have all the right skills? Heck no, they have an intense training and placment industry that we don't have. Just look at their sites: naukri, sulekha, etc. We Americans used to receive training, but the companies stopped that when they got used to just calling up the bodyshoppers. They have a special recruiting pipeling to jobs in America that pretty much excludes American job seekers too.

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Sep 10, 2011 12:16 PM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

So you do not care about the other countries who have been the victims of the American practice of globalization...no need to look far just see the small farms and families in Mexico destroyed by NAFTA. But you have no problem in calling people in other countries thieves and robbers when they are using the same framework used by Americans to profit themselves...with the same logic aren't Americans thieves too?

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Sep 10, 2011 12:35 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

Americans are done being guilted into giving away the store. We have little control over what our recent leaders have been doing, often behind our backs. Nor do we have a lot of power to fix the world. We need to start in our own backyards and pour our energies into our own communities. Learn the difference between some Wall Street, Pennsylvania Avenue, and Main Street.

The third world will have to roll up its sleeves and fix their own countries, and we will have to do the same here. There a certain equality in that. America needs to stop trying to be the sugar daddy to the rest of the world. We haven't been able to afford it for a long time, and the results are now showing.

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Sep 11, 2011 1:12 AM Madagasper Madagasper  says: in response to hire american

It is true that India and Indians have benefited a great deal from the USA although you will not find too many Indians acknowledging this fact.   But it is not true that life in India has gotten better across the board in the past 10 years.  For about 300 million middle class Indians, there has been improvement in terms of disposable income and availability of consumer products but living conditions remain terrible (quality of air, traffic, noise, etc).  For the 800 million Indian poor life is still a living hell.

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Sep 11, 2011 1:36 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

Why should companies spend time and money on training a worker when they have the option to hire someone who already has the skills?

I only wish they'd apply that cold blooded logic to the executives who run the companies into the ground with their "skills" and then walk away with millions. That's where the cost savings need to happen. Carol "The most overpaid CEO" Bartz  formerly of Yahoo gets fired this past week , makes 10s of millions and still whines and curses about it. We should all be so fortunate.

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Sep 11, 2011 2:41 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to George Alexander

Your point is valid.  But,  Americans are denied access to training in many "hot" technologies, for example, Electronic Medical Records (EMR).

Many EMR vendors only provide training to their customers and partners. Tons of India outsourcing companies are EMR partners and do train the their offshoring talent in these technologies.

Neither EMR vendors, healthcare providers,hospitals, nor partners provide affordable access to training on these technologies to Americans - unless they work for a member of their shell game.

Americans, this is taxation without representation. WE THE PEOPLE, US taxpayers, are the ones paying the bill to offshore US Medical IT.
ARRA, Obama's Economic Stimulus Plan, ARRA, reserved $19 billion of US Taxpayer dollars funding financial incentives for medical practices to implement EMR systems.

Physicians who adopt EMR and show meaningful use receive $44,000 - $60,000.

"This economic stimulus package is expected to provide significant revenue opportunities for EMR vendors and service providers. "www.emrconsultant.com/education/emrstimulus
The economic decision makers in EMR shell game discriminate against the primary stakeholders - US taxpayers.

  • WE THE PEOPLE are most directly affected by EMR.

  • We are forced to fund it and will be its end users. 

  • Yet, Americans are DENIED access to affordable training in these technologies

  • This Discrimination DEPRIVES Americans the opportunity for a fair chance to compete for these US jobs in US healthcare IT 

If India's outsourcing companies "get it"

  • Why won't US EMR vendors, who's profit rely on US taxpayers, offer affordable training in their technologies to Americans? 

  • And, why isn't the Federal government, changed with oversight about these technologies doing anything about it?



Please Fax President Obama and your elected officials to demand they withhold financial incentives to US healthcare providers until they make affordable training on their technologies accessible to Americans.

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Sep 11, 2011 2:44 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to George Alexander

Because there won't be an America any more if they don't hire Americans. And the third world can and will turn on the American companies who want to profiteer off of them. The American companies had it good with American consumers. The day will come when they rue dumping us.

If there's such a thing as karma, why call for payback against America? It will happen automatically without the third world doing anything - if there really is such a thing as karma. Which there isn't.

What we need to do now is start and build new companies to take the place of the departing no-longer-American companies. And as the traitor companies depart, bar the door behind them. 

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Sep 11, 2011 3:33 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

Why is Walmart the biggest retailer in the US?.  Because Americans want to buy the cheapest possible products. American customers are responsible not the third world workers who make these products.

Your rage is misplaced.

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Sep 11, 2011 3:35 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Dolores

Never Forget

Today, the 10th anniversary of 9.11 we must never forget the sacrifices of every day American heros
who risk their lives every day to protect us.  

  • The people who perished

  • First Responders

  • US Military  

Americans - we owe it to these heros to remember - job one is to take care of our own.

Paid off politicians, greedy billionaires, lobbyists, corporate visa workers, flat world globalists, and mainstream media
You cannot rob America from Americans

A reminder in honor our fallen American heroes:

www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/911_TerrTrav_Ch2.pdf

"The success of the September 11 plot depended on the ability of the hijackers to obtain visas and pass an immigration and customs inspection in order to enter the United States. It also depended on their ability to remain here undetected while they worked out the operational details of the attack. If they had failed on either count-entering and becoming embedded-the plot could not have been executed.

The 9/11 hijackers submitted 23 visa (B-1, F-1 student and M vocational student) visas applications during the course of the plot, and 22 of these applications were approved." 911 Commission

Never forget

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Sep 11, 2011 3:58 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to samsara

Sweeping generalizations about America show a lack of understanding and respect for the people and culture of the country where you've had the good fortune to be a temporary non-immigrant guest worker. 

There's a lot more to the story than purchasing toys Walmart.. And, maybe if Walmart, etc. did not outsource manufacturing and offshore US jobs, Americans would receive fair wages and ample opportunities for a job well done. 

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Sep 11, 2011 4:07 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

Walmart started out as a champion of made-in-America goods. It's not that Americans want to buy the cheapest, it's that so many of them have been reduced to a NEED to buy the cheapest by globalism's impact on American employment and salaries. If this were not true, there would not still be a healthy and thriving market for luxury goods and services for the fewer and fewer who can still afford them - but there is. It's not about the cheapest, but the best that people can afford. Samsara is confusing cause and effect.

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Sep 11, 2011 4:19 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us

The demand for training from companies is a new surprising experience for me.I've never seen this happen anywhere else before.

All I'm asking is why do we expect companies to spoon feed training if they don't see any profit or RoR over hiring already skilled workers?Indian companies do training because they see the profit and RoR.Maybe other companies don't.Why do we think that companies have an obligation to train us?I never recieved any training after college and learned everything myself simply because I knew I had to do if I needed to survive.I performed much better than most of the freshers from the same time I joined back then with 3 month trainng programs.I worked on a PEGA/PRPC platform in 2008 which is a popular BPM (Business Process Management) rules engine from PEGA.Before joining the team, I learned everything required for the job myself using a dev installation while those who were already in the team were sent to PEGA for training by the company at an expense of 3500$ per course (bootcamp) and another 4000$ for PRPC developer and architect level courses ended up doing the same thing I was doing.

Do I feel companies should invest in training their employees?Yes, I believe it's the best decision if the employee sticks around for the next few months.

Should we expect companies do that?No way.Good days are over.People need to learn to be independent.We need to get over the feeling that companies have some obligation towards us other than the minimum expectations that meet labor laws.

>>Why won't US EMR vendors, who's profit rely on US taxpayers, offer affordable training in their technologies to Americans?

Per the artical,

"The EMR stimulus program is essentially a reimbursement offer which can be utilized by the many practices that don€™t have the funds to invest in an electronic medical record system."

The stimulus is for physicians who adopt EMR services from vendors.Vendors are not obligated to train anyone.Will the plan benifit vendors?yes.Are they under any obligation to reduce prices or rates for any service?no way.Who are we to dictate how a business is to run when it isn't breaking any law or doing anything unethical?

If I develop a hospital management system that provides EMR services, I will train my customer's operators as part of the services I provide.The stimulus does not provide me with any capital but rather to the hospitals and physicians who will adopt such system.

What you are saying is that I should provide reduced training to people who do not buy the product that I have spent months and lots of capital into it.My former collegue joined HIT Application Solutions three years ago.They provide the same services for hospitals and clinics.This is how their model works - you test their system for three months.If you like it, you can buy it as a whole or buy modules from it and they will train your employees to use it.Pretty simple.My sister-in-law is a project manager at MD Anderson and they work under the same business model too.Small time vendors in this space like HIT face really stiff competition from already established vendors like Siemens and GE Healthcare that can afford to take a hit for a couple of months so that customers will adopt their systems.

So I'm not sure what expectations you have from vendors just because government passed a stimulus bill that had obligations from medical practices but not vendors.

I feel this is once again about that mentality where we expect others to do things for us. Reply

Sep 11, 2011 4:19 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us
I was never brought up in such a system and I can tell you that many people in poorer third world countries weren't either.Maybe people who were more fortunate should ponder upon how long they can expect to live with this mentality in the real world which is getting smaller and competitive.

I'm all for companies providing training.I don't expect anyone to give that to me in a silver platter though.I know many of the banking and pharmaceutical organizations who were my clients have provided an exhaustive list of online training material to their employees while many others such as Avanade, a top tier US based IT consulting firm, spends 15,000$ in training every year for their employees by sending them to instructor led training. Employees that do not get the expected certification are slowly shown the door within a year.

>>Please Fax President Obama and your elected officials to demand they withhold financial incentives to US healthcare providers until they make affordable training on their technologies accessible to Americans.

What financial incentives have US healthcare providers specifically recieved?

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Sep 11, 2011 4:23 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to George Alexander

American companies used to always, routinely train workers. There was no programming school to go to back when my mother's company trained her to program, which she did for decades. It was the norm in a much more prosperous, decent, and healthy America than GeorgeArchitect ever saw or got to know about. But we Americans over a certain age remember it well. It was a time when mass layoffs were unheard of, individual layoffs were rare, and America was roaringly prosperous and successful, and was the undisputed world leader in science, innovation, technology and engineering.

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Sep 11, 2011 4:30 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

Walmart really took off only after they started outsourcing to China. And Americans bought their products because they wanted cheap goods.

Walmart did not take off because Americans are poor due to globalization though that may be the scenario today.

They grew because the Chinese govt opened their country in the 70's and they under priced everyone else. The massive growth of Walmart was in the late 80's and 90's.

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Sep 11, 2011 4:40 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

Samsara is wrong about this. The era of mass layoffs began in the '70s and salary stagnation was well underway in some professions during the 80s and 90s, only the mainstream press hadn't picked up on it yet. The air traffic controller's strike in 1981 is regarded by many as the death knell of unions. It hit the blue collar folks first, then came for the white collar people starting with IT. By the decade of the aughts, IT was no longer a safe profession for Americans.

Third world people have a whole library of myths and wishful thinking about the west, and the idea that we assented to our own demise is one of the ugliest of them. The average person had little choice and good information was rare, even after the Internet had spread.

While we may have had a lack of information, third worlders cherish a cornucopia of disinformation about America that makes much of what they say offensive to us.

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Sep 11, 2011 4:43 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

I come from Europe and let us say we have similar views as the "third worlders"

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Sep 11, 2011 4:45 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to George Alexander

Where/how can Americans apply for this jobs in Healthcare IT to learn EMR training.

Let me be perfectly clear - WE do NOT want a handout. We want access to training for in-demand jobs in our communities in EMR and other healthcare IT. This training is NOT available to Americans unless they work for a healthcare provider or partner. Even if we could afford to pay top dollar for commercial training EMR vendors like Epic do not offer it to the community.

It is WRONG to deprive Americans an opportunity to learn about technologies for good paying jobs in our community.   The incentives for EMR vendors are paid by US taxpayers.  If the US Government pays these for "economic stimulus" they must be accountable that these taxpayer $$$$ go to creating jobs for Americans.

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Sep 11, 2011 4:54 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

Doesn't matter. In order to survive, America needs a healthy job market, one that consists of plentiful jobs at all levels. White collar, blue collar, laborers, specialists, everything. There is no job that Americans won't or can't do, because before the importation of tens of millions of superfluous foreign workers, Americans are who did these jobs.

It was our fifth column collaborators (the c-suite folks willing to sell out America for their own bonuses) and the lobbyists for China who insisted that America didn't need manufacturing jobs: we could all just go to college and be bankers, or quants, or IT guys. But then those jobs got given away too.

The question is, do we Americans want an America like the third world, where there are a few rich and where everyone else is either scrambling to lick their boots or else being discarded to starve. And only Americans should get a vote in this question.

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Sep 11, 2011 5:02 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to jobs4us

This is probably somewhat tangential to the discussion but it serves to explain the zeitgeist of the American corporate executives who have created the situation we are in:

Mean people earn higher salaries...

...the study by three university researchers found that anti-competitiveness and self-sacrificing tendencies don't translate into income and earnings.

www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2011/08/mean_people_earn_higher_salari.html

So, you can forget about any kind of sympathy from the higher ups in corporate America. There eye is only on their bottom line. This survey just further confirms it. :-|

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Sep 11, 2011 5:10 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us

>>This training is NOT available to Americans unless they work for a healthcare provider or partner.

I believe a company has every right to restrict training to only it's partners. I may not like this but it's their right at the end of the day. Why should we demand that they train us at a rate that we choose? I know quite a few people who make products or service them in healthcare - there is a business rational to it. The product which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to a million include training and support as an incentive to purchase such expensive products.

>>Even if we could afford to pay top dollar for commercial training EMR vendors like Epic do not offer it to the community

My wife is a doctor and she recieved training for EPIC. My sister-in-law who works at another hospital as a project manager hates EPIC but recieved training for it too when she joined the hospital. My father-in-law used to be the head of the radiology dept and he's recieved EPIC training too. I'm giving these examples because people who have used EPIC for instance, HAVE recieved training. If you worked in any of their customers, you would recieve it too - simply because part of their product marketting campaign includes the training component too.

>>It is WRONG to deprive Americans an opportunity to learn about technologies for good paying jobs in our community.  

The training is avaible to tens of thousands of people who work in healthcare practices that use EPIC software. What's wrong with this? These companies are simply following a "closed" system and many companies do this. There is nothing wrong with this. If I develop a product, I have the right to train only my employees, contractors and then to partners only if they purchase it or want to use it for trial. I don't want to waste resources training people who will not purchase the product. It's a business decision to increase the stream of revenue from the services provided for this product that I have created. Other streams of revenue from this product can be support, enhancements, deployment etc.

>>The incentives for EMR vendors are paid by US taxpayers.  If the US Government pays these for "economic stimulus" they must be accountable that these taxpayer $$$$ go to creating jobs for Americans.

Where and what did the US government pay for these incentives to EMR vendors? Do you have any specific bills that were passed that had clauses for EMR vendors or are you just making up stuff because you feel you deserve the right to be trained by companies? These "economic stimulus" were never asked by any EMR vendor and neither are they obligated to any of them.

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Sep 11, 2011 5:16 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores

I hear you but don't you think times have changed from the 80s and early 90s when computers where niche and you were considered a rocket scientist if you could write a program? It no longer is the pot of the gold that was advertised back then. Sometimes it's portrayed that way today but that is so wrong and the industry get saturated by people who join it just for the money leading to more supply vs demand which indirectly affects payscales.

Maybe America was like that once upon a time but those days are simply over. No other country had it that good. Here's what globalization did - it forced everyone else to adapt inorder to compete. I'm a product of globalization. American companies are adapting too. But there are some American workers who find it hard adapting probably because they are used to the old way of things when most of the goodies were handed over. Thomas Friedman's book "The world is flat" has a lot to say about how Americans can still stay on the top inspite of the tide of globaliation - the summary of it being that people need to add value where other's can't.

Why things are different:

1. Companies cannot afford freebies like instructor led training any longer (though I have to question why they can afford outragious salaries for top executives.... I don't know why my manager makes ~200,000 bucks when I can do the same thing a lot better but that's just me feeling like that. But the answer to this is explained in #2).

2. Competition. There are a lot more people who don't need that training any more. Why should a company train a newbie in Java or .Net when they can get a newbie who already has a Java or .Net projects under his belt (that was me when I started. When the department had no budget, I offered myself for free with the string that they could hire me in the next quarter when hiring. In the next quarter, I got selected over 8 other candidates who had great grades but no experience.)

3. If a company's cost/benifit analysis feels that it needs to train inorder to get benifits, then it will train. Many companies still do this.

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Sep 11, 2011 5:28 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to George Alexander

The answer to the training question is this: most of the people who don't need the training come from foreign countries where the training is provided.

My concern is limited to matters within America. What happens to Americans who are prevented from competing by unfair advantages (such as China pegging their currency to the dollar, by other countries' workers being provided with skill development denied to Americans, or whatever)? Within America, American citizens ARE a protected class, it's just that nobody has been enforcing their legal rights.

We should not be putting our own citizens out by the curb on trash day. If our citizens are smart enough to cut it, we should level the playing field by finding a way to make the same investment in them that other countries are making in their own people. We should not be stealing the brainpower of other countries while flushing our native brainpower down the drain.

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Sep 11, 2011 5:30 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

Thomas Friedman's book "The world is flat" has a lot to say about how Americans can still stay on the top inspite of the tide of globaliation - the summary of it being that people need to add value where other's can't.

Isn't it always nice to get advice from somebody like Mr Friedman, who has never to worry about being "competitive" himself. You see he made his money the old fashioned way. He married into it.... let's see some stats on this darling of the globalization mob...
Friedman's wife, Ann's father, Matthew Bucksbaum, was the chairman of the board of General Growth Properties, a real estate development group. As of 2007, Forbes estimated the Bucksbaum family's assets at $4.1 billion.
though the company did file for bankruptcy not long ago, I'm sure Tommy boy and the rest made out decently before it went belly up:The July 2006 issue of Washingtonian reported that they own "a palatial 11,400-square-foot (1,060 m2) house, currently valued at $9.3 million,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Friedman

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Sep 11, 2011 6:34 AM DD DD  says: in response to Dolores

Those who contributed in the fields of science, medicine, technology etc to make America what it is today are still flourishing. Only thing which has changed now is they dont need to carry the liability of costly but not useful manpower, instead they can get cheaper and may be better workers from third world countries. This might be pain for semi skilled American labors but  overall business is still not impacted.

People like you want to force entrepreneurs to carry your burden but you yourself dont want to enhance your skills to contribute in their business. Keep yourself in their shoes and you will find that most of the costly labors are like parasites, they dont either need your enhanced skills or you are overpriced compared to your skills. They  are happy with cheap and less skilled labors.

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Sep 11, 2011 6:45 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to DD

Purest nonsense. There's nothing wrong with American brainpower or aptitude.

It is ILLEGAL to use foreign workers to lower wages. That has never been enforced, but it remains true. There needs to be a sharp revision of all visa programs providing access to the American labor market to ensure that the law is strengthened and enforced.

And, we still have nations and borders. It's nothing short of suicide to destroy our own people to make way for others.

America is withering because once Americans lose their big fat American paychecks, they can no longer pay their big fat American bills and taxes, and the entire country is descending into blight because of it. America can't afford all this cheap labor. It's costing us all too much.

It's not the Americans who are overpriced, it's that the third worlders are willing and able to work for pocket lint - they are underpriced. Better enforcement of labor and visa laws can fix this.

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Sep 11, 2011 8:06 AM DD DD  says: in response to Dolores

I think realization of your status has hurt you real bad. But you are a parasite indeed.

I repeat those were brain behind all the development are still doing good. Its just people full of greed and laziness like Dolores who dont contribute enough towards the development and in return look for fat paycheck are suffering.

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Sep 11, 2011 8:45 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to DD

Troll - please take your degrading, demeaning insults and overt hatred and disdain for Americans elsewhere.  These baseless comments add no value to the discussion.. Your statements illustrate a sense of entitlement, and your lack of knowledge of Americans, our culture, education, business and laws does your fellow countrymen an injustice.  It is clear that you have no respect for American ethics, integrity, service, and talent. 

At this second in time, you know you are the smartest guy in the room and as long as you're winning you have zero regard for all the bodies you left in your path to the top.

Like Enron, the Smartest Guy in the Room at Infosys will have your day in court. Three whistleblowers, mountains of evidence.   The bigger you think you are the harder you'll fall.

The world is a small place, and those that do not treat others as they'd like to be treated will soon see the pendulum swing. Just wait entitled one.

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Sep 11, 2011 8:55 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to George Alexander

What is wrong about trying to attend public classes to learn Epic, EMR and other HIT technology?  I contacted Epic directly specifically to register for their classes and informed no training exists for anyone except Epic customers and partners.

In terms of economic dollars, it's not rocket science. EMR vendors make $$ selling to healthcare providers, who get funding from the government to implement it. There's a gold rush of cash out there for HC providers to buy this stuff and the vendors are making money through the incentives to providers before the $ dries up.

Excluding Americans and depriving individuals the opportunity to register for their classes is discrimination -  meanwhile, India outsourcers have swarmed this gig training their workers to get the cash while it lasts.  It is WRONG for companies who make money based on taxpayer funding to deprive US citizens the funders of their wealth, an opportunity to train for hot technology fields in high demand.

Please prove me wrong, let me know where I can take these classes, on my own dime, if I don't work for an Indian outsourcer or HC provider.

Thank you

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Sep 11, 2011 9:38 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

I don't know why my manager makes ~200,000 bucks when I can do the same thing a lot better

You ought to know by now that salary and talent/skill  aren't really connected atleast in the executive world. If most of them had to actually use technical skills, they'd find themselves underqualified to even work as door greeters at the local Wal-Mart. Corporate climbing has not much to do with anything more than knowing how to play office politics.

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Sep 11, 2011 10:16 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to hire american

Why don't use ask the farmers of Mexico or the rubber farmers of Thailand for instance if globalization has been great for them...the only people globalization has been great for are American corporations and local oligarchs in many other countries at the cost of the poor there.

For many many decades the average head stuck in the sand American said no word about the havoc their corporation caused in the world as long as the profits came swooshing back into the country. Europe saw the danger decades back but were browbeaten by the "we know everything" American elite.

Then something funny happened the internet was developed and instead of American corporations  running around searching for markets, they also started searching for cheap labor.And now suddenly the Americans woke up even though their corporation still love the setup.

This is karma. Expect no support from the labor movements anywhere in the world be it Europe,Asia or Africa because when we protested decades back you laughed at us.

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Sep 11, 2011 10:21 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us

>>"What is wrong about trying to attend public classes to learn Epic, EMR and other HIT technology? I contacted Epic directly specifically to register for their classes and informed no training exists for anyone except Epic customers and partners."

That's purely EPIC's choice.They are not violating any law and many companies follow this closed policy.It's their business policy to provide training to only partners.I don't know why you feel entitled to recieve their training even if you are willing to pay them when they have every right to a choice not to provide it.

>>"Excluding Americans and depriving individuals the opportunity to register for their classes is discrimination - meanwhile, India outsourcers have swarmed this gig training their workers to get the cash while it lasts."

Why are you portraying "Americans" as victims in this as if "Indians" are given some kind of preference?That is something of your doing.Americans are not excluded from any training as you claim.You are simply portraying yourself as a victim.Any American partner and their American employees can get training.My sister-in-law joined MD Andersson and got trained on EPIC.My wife joined UTMB and got trained and they're both Americans.Don't just make up stuff.Indian outsourcers who are partners can get their employees trained too.You're simply turning this into a "Americans vs others" thing where as EPIC and other healthcare vendors will train any partner that registers with them.It's purely the business model.

>>"It is WRONG for companies who make money based on taxpayer funding to deprive US citizens the funders of their wealth, an opportunity to train for hot technology fields in high demand."

The only thing wrong is your logic and what you state.No Healthcare IT company is getting any direct funding from "tax payer" money.Neither did they ask for it or have any say in it.Besides, these companies are also "tax payer".They have no additional obligations and neither can you cite any government declarative to that effect.

Under TARP, banking and financial institutions recieved direct bailouts and stimulus if they stuck to TARP clauses.If banks use that money to start new offices in rulral areas with TARP money, are construction workers now under TARP obligations???NO.The bank is under TARP.Not third parties.Your logic is very flawed.

>>"In terms of economic dollars, it's not rocket science.EMR vendors make $$ selling to healthcare providers, who get funding from the government to implement it.There's a gold rush of cash out there for HC providers to buy this stuff and the vendors are making money through the incentives to providers before the $ dries up."

This is a demonstration of why government should not get involved with these stupid bailout and stimulus programs that make some people think that they are suddenly entitled to services and preferences.It's simply SPOILING a generation.Do you see how wrong your logic is?I work for a company that provides healthcare services apart from other verticals since 2004.No one asked for any stupid stimulus.Companies like EPIC, Siemens, GE healthcare, HIT have been successfully providing healthcare systems for years even before any of this.These stimulus makes some people think that they are eligable for services from private companies.I'm surprised to directly interact with people who think they are entitled to the services of private companies and all these government spoiling programs are just making it worse. Reply

Sep 11, 2011 10:21 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us

Why are you so focussed in EPIC anyway?There are so many other technology products out there that you can train yourself for free or join training programs by spending money if you desire.Microsoft technologies is even more easier - attend their weekly free user groups and you get trained on every new hot thing.They even provide pizza and soda.

Is it because EPIC makes succesful products that you want to cash in too?Is it because someone told you that there is a lot of money for EPIC qualified implenters or operators?

>>Please prove me wrong, let me know where I can take these classes, on my own dime, if I don't work for an Indian outsourcer or HC provider.

I'm a senior software engineer developing solutions using .Net.I work for an IT services and solutions company.When we wanted to enter the PEGA/PRPC space, we registered as a PEGA partner to provide solutions on their behalf.No free lunches according to our own rules.They made the product.They make the rules for their product and we follow it because we saw it's a profitable space to enter too.None of it violates any labor law and nothing unethical about it.That's how lots of businesses work in the real world without breaking any law.If you don't like it, then don't do business with them.There are literally hunderds of other oppertunties out there in Healthcare that any skilled person can grab if they are in the right place or willing to relocate.

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Sep 11, 2011 10:33 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us

.

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Sep 11, 2011 10:38 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to hire american

Globalization is an irreversable process now and nothing will change that. India will soon outsource to cheaper destinations (it already has started this with countries like Srilanka and China).

This might have already been flattened to death but I recommend everyone read "The world is flat" from Thomas Friedman. I'm not a big Friedman fan but he's understood a lot things from the real world in this book.

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Sep 11, 2011 10:51 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Dolores

>>We Americans used to receive training, but the companies stopped that when they got used to just calling up the bodyshoppers.

Why should companies spend time and money on training a worker when they have the option to hire someone who already has the skills?

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Sep 12, 2011 1:57 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to George Alexander

I do not know the source of your information.  My statements are factually accurate - electronic medical records providers gain taxpayer funded economic stimulus dollars funded by US taxpayers.

Furthermore, HHS and  the USDOL have programs in place to ensure that American citizens are trained in these technologies. 

So, if these companies benefit from economic stimulus dollars designed to create jobs for Americans, why don't they provide any way for Americans? The only people with access to Epic training are hospitals and Indian outsourcing companies.  So much for jobs creation for Americans.  

-Don, this might be a good story for you to break. 

Obama administration awarding $975 million to advance electronic medical records www.startribune.com/business/84237597.html

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration announced $975 million in grants to help states, doctors and hospitals move from paper to computerized record-keeping.

The White House says the awards will help make electronic record-keeping technologies available to more than 100,000 hospitals and primary care physicians by the year 2014 while helping train thousands of people for careers in health care and information technology.

The grants come from two federal agencies.

Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius announced $386 million in grants to advance electronic health records at the state level.

HHS is also granting $375 million to 32 nonprofits for regional training of health care workers on these technologies.
Labor Secretary Hilda Solis announced around $225 million to support 55 job-training programs in 30 states.

The administration says around 15,000 people should get training in the health records technology field .

Solis said the training will lead those people to jobs offering career-track employment and good pay and benefits.

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Sep 12, 2011 2:15 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to jobs4us

>>I do not know the source of your information.  My statements are factually accurate - electronic medical records providers gain taxpayer funded economic stimulus dollars funded by US taxpayers.

You keep saying that IT healthcare providers get tax payer funding with no source. You're just making this stuff up. Which clause in which stimulus bill states that EMR providers are getting taxpayer funds? And who exactly were the recepients of this funding? My company certainly wasn't.

>>The Obama administration announced $975 million in grants to help states, doctors and hospitals move from paper to computerized record-keeping.

Reading should not be this complicated. It's for 1. states 2. doctors and 3. hospitals. Nothing is provided to privately owned healthcare IT product & service providers.

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Sep 12, 2011 2:27 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to George Alexander

Why are you portraying "Americans" as victims in this as if "Indians" are given some kind of preference?

Those are your words, not mine. I want to know where Americans who do not work for a hospital or partner can access training.

This taxpayer funded program includes DOL and HHS dollars to train Americans in electronic medical record technology careers.

So laid off Americans are deprived access to this training in this industry despite funding specifically allocated to create jobs.

EPIC and other healthcare vendors will train any partner that registers with them. It's purely the business model.

Doesn't make sense that organizations benefiting from economic stimulus dollars to create US jobs don't provide access to training for people who want to learn.

I'm not saying free, just access. Microsoft and other companies make training available through community colleges. Why can't these firms?

Furthermore becoming a business partner takes money and resources, neither are readily available to Americans who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own.

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Sep 12, 2011 3:11 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to George Alexander

I bet most of those jobs that Obama announced will go to illegals and H1bs 

After all, he needs their votes next year :P

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Sep 12, 2011 5:30 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to jobs4us

Indians ARE being given preference. A few months back I saw an ad placed by an Indian staffing firm in Naukri.com offering free training in EPIC followed by job placement - in America. I had all the qualifications they said they were looking for, including the Master's so I applied. They ignored my application.

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Sep 12, 2011 6:55 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Dolores

I went on Naukhri and saw advertisements with B1 visa required on it...this is blatant visa misuse if any. I am curious why the American government gives B1 visas for 10 years?..why not for 3 months as is norm in many places in Europe. Such a easy fix to this problem.

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Sep 12, 2011 7:06 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says:

It's the evil corporations that are ruining the country.

So, I suggest we stop supporting them whenever and wherever possible.

Any ideas on how to go about doing this?

For example buy produce from the local farmer instead of a Walmart?

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Sep 12, 2011 7:12 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to samsara

There is a general ignorance inside the beltway as to how damaging the visa programs have been. Those inside always imagine that displaced Americans can just magically go get other jobs, no matter how many are taken away from them. The folly of that notion has now become apparent in our current economy.

I've also seen ads, by Indian staffing companies, for extremely common skills such as Windows system admnistration, for jobs located in American cities, to be staffed with with Indians and posted over in Indian publications. This shows how far the rot of insanity has penetrated our job market. When such jobs are posted in America for Americans to see, literally hundreds of qualified local candidates show up.

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Sep 12, 2011 9:16 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to samsara

We have been throwing money at these countries in the name of outsourcing,aid packages and IMF loans.

If some sections of the population in those countries fared better than others,then you need to question their governments....

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Sep 12, 2011 10:27 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Dolores

I hope you file a complaint with the DOJ about this. 

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Sep 12, 2011 11:18 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to hireamerican

Obama just announced the "American jobs" act for school teachers, construction workers etc. I thought he would have something to say about  foreign IT workers who are taking up all the IT jobs...

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Sep 13, 2011 9:36 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says:

Infosys pays nearly $64M to settle kickback allegations!!!

"The federal contractor was accused of "receiving kickbacks for its recommendations of hardware and software to the government, fraudulently inflated prices and rigged bids," according to a Sept. 12 Justice Department news release."

"The charges were filed in a whistleblower lawsuit filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Arkansas.

"Kickbacks and bid rigging undermine the integrity of the federal procurement process," Tony West, assistant attorney general for the Justice Department's Civil Division, said in a statement. "At a time when we're looking for ways to reduce our public spending, it is especially important to ensure that government contractors play by the rules and don't waste precious taxpayer dollars."

oops! that was Accenture

tinyurl.com/4xfc97s

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Sep 13, 2011 9:42 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

What's the point of this post ? If anything it should prove that any corporation that breaks the law should be fined. Infosys is not being singled out.

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Sep 13, 2011 9:57 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Or that corporations are corporations regardless of where they're from. This lawsuit was filed back in 2004.

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Sep 13, 2011 10:24 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to SealTeam6 SealTeam6

Another thing, stuff like this won't get anyone riled up the way, say if Infosys or Wipro or TCS or Russian Vladmir Kuperosky Software services would. I think it's the human tendencies of the "other" vs "one of us".

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Sep 13, 2011 10:49 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to George Alexander

That's the other side of the coin of your "corporations are corporations " line. (sounds eerily like the excuse of "befehl ist befehl" from the Nuremberg trials).  People also are people too. Am sure in India or Russia or China they look on the the transgressions of foreign corporations/individuals differently than those done by "one of their own".

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Sep 15, 2011 8:02 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

"For Indian outsourcing companies, hiring non-Indians may be the right move in more ways than one."

All the fraud that has been going on for the past 10 years is finally coming out and now all the Indian bodyshops are terrified their crimes against Americans will be exposed. They have been deliberately keepng Americans out of the workforce for years.

Incompetent aindians do stay in the jobs because the big moneybag Indian companies pay alp the American managers huge bribes to lay off Americans and replace them with Indians. IT degrees are for saoe in Punjab.

As for Juniper, I can vouch for the story: I being a white American interviewed there a few years back and all I got were angry looks from the Maylay manager, 1 Chinese, and a really angry Indian who interviewed me. He told me to go to the board and do a prblem in C but as soon as my hand hit the board he cut me off and said I failed - all so Juniper could say they looked for qualified Americans but didn't find any so they can go cry to Congress about the need to bring in more Indian workers.

This is how the job theft/fraud/lies/takeover occurs and our gov't does not care.

As for me not being qualified I've been programming in C-based languages for 20 years and used to do it at Apple and Sony.

These Indian companies are REALLY scared the depth of their decade-long fraud is gong to be found out.

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Sep 15, 2011 8:15 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to samsara

Globalization was invented by Mikhail Gorbachev, not America. Read his 1990 book "Perestroika". He laid out how globalization would be used to achieve socialism worldwide. It has now come to pass. Americans and American corporations were peacefully minding their own business up until 1998 - the year capitalism triumphed. Then suddenly the rest of the world wanted in here to take everything. NASSCOM hired DC lobbying firm Hill & Knowlton to place "worker shortages" stories in US media, and they lobbied congress. They were also the ones who put it into the minds of American biz managers that American labor was too expensive and they should use cheaper foreign labor.

So don't sit there and try to deflect attention away from a guilty India, Inc. who caused all this economic mess for the world by destroying the American middle class.

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Sep 15, 2011 8:17 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to hire american

"I meant 70 hours per week and 35 hours per week"

Nice maths skills.

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Sep 15, 2011 8:37 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to samsara

"You never answered my question..are Americans thieves and robbers for destroying the lives of millions of people in Mexico,Latin America,Shah's Iran, Vietnam, etc in the name of globalization and free market principles?"

Destroying lives? Perhaps you'd better read this:

www.rcac.org/doc.aspx?714&;i=300

www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_11/b3975071.htm

Hundreds of millions in India and China have been lifted out of poverty.

Brazil is booming. So is Russia. Average Hungarians can now afford to buy their own houses and live a middle class lifestyle.

The only lives being destroyed here are Americans'. Everyone else is propsering.

The problem is, they are all prospering off jobs, industries, and products originally created by Americans.

Do you think a system where Americans do the hard work of creating the new industries but India, China, and Meixco end up with all the jobs is fair?

Can you name one new industry China and India have given back to the world to employ others.

Mexicans, Chinese, and Indians have never had it so good. The whole rest of the world has come to the US and carried off what Americans worked to earn.

Stop the sob story because we're not lisenting.

Besides all those other countries wanted our products originally because we were the only ones who could make them.

If you want to buy an iPhone it has to be made in China in order to employ Chinese people.

The US has provided hundreds of millions of jobs for the world all on the backs of the American worker.

Whereas we work to create something first and enrich other countries with wealth and jobs, you OTOH come to our country and take take take as the economy collapses.

Not quite the same, is it?

As to answer Don's question, again, you have to understand the history of India. It is a fact that many Indians resent white westerners due to Britain's colonization of India 200 years ago. It is a well-known fact among American techies that many Indians are arrogant and look down on Americans. In India's schools they teach the students that all software comes from India but then the Indians are surprised when they come here and find out that's not true. I even had one Indian tell me "Microsoft is an Indian company".

Shouldn't "maybe for indian companies, hiring non-Indians is the way to go" raise a red flag?

"Maybe?" Don't we have civil rights and anti-discrimination laws in the US? I am amazed Don didn't even comment on this.

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Sep 15, 2011 8:59 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

Americans arent productive? According to a 2008 UN/ILO report, American workers are ranked 2nd in world productivity.

Indian workers? The report ranked them 54th - behind Guatemala, Mexico, and Congo.

This is just all more anti-American propaganda coming out of India, Inc. so they can get more business.

Americans invented IT long before India ever got involved.

Can anyone name one new product or industry that has come out of India that anyone uses?

Where is the commercial Indian operating system anyone uses?

Doesn't exist.

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Sep 15, 2011 9:37 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to DD

"Those who contributed in the fields of science, medicine, technology etc to make America what it is today are still flourishing.Only thing which has changed now is they dont need to carry the liability of costly but not useful manpower, instead they can get cheaper and may be better workers from third world countries."

3rd world workers hear that an American makes $100,000/yr and to the 3rd world worker, that is a king's ransom in their home currency.So they think "I'm poor and those American programmers are making tons of $?Their salaries need to come down!"

But these 3rd worlders don't realize that half that $100K goes to taxes and the other half goes for food and to pay a $3500/mo mortgage.What sounds like a fortune to a 3rd worlder is barely making it for an American.

Costly, but not useful?I would say inventing a new $14 trillion industry long before the MBAs and 3rd worlders got here Is useful, wouldn't you?Where was India when we were inventing IT?Why are only IT workers overpaid?A good stockbroker brings in $1 mil a year for his company and gets paid $300K.A good actor brings in $300 mll for the studio and gets paid $20 mil.A baseball player gets paid $40 mil.

But a hardworking programmer who works til 2AM every night and creates a product that brings in $5-10 mil for the company is overpaid at $100K?Why are only IT workers being singled out?Why do Congresspeople get paid $175K a year with an automatic $5K a year raise to do a job any clown could do - and they're failing at it too.This nonsense that American workers are paid too much is a poison put into the minds of US executives by India, Inc.Thus India is the prime cause of all our economic problems.As for the 3rd world workers being better, 13 years of you people running things has brought the US economy to its knees.You people are miserable failures.Not to mention delusional.

"This might be pain for semi skilled American labors butoverall business is still not impacted."

US corporations are crying everywhere thay there is a lack of demand.And why?Because the American middle class consumer has been destroyed because their jobs were taken away by cheap labor.All the banks went under because the mortgage-paying Americans lost their jobs.So formerly good loans became bad loans because Americans lost the ability to pay.What do you expect people to pay their mortgages with?Dirt?Business not being impacted?Where have you been for the last 3 years?It's an economic disaster in the US.

"People like you want to force entrepreneurs to carry your burden but you yourself dont want to enhance your skills to contribute in their business."

Back in 1998 when most Americans were being paid very well, the US economy was booming.And businesses were doing just fine.How were businesses doing just fine paying all those labor costs back then?

And how do you know Americans aren't enhancing their skills?We're the ones TRAINING you after all.As Henry Ford said "I HAVE to pay my people enough to enable them to buy my product".Get it?If you pay slave wages, demand stops.Ask any businessman if they want demand for their product to go down.

"Keep yourself in their shoes and you will find that most of the costly labors are like parasites, they dont either need your enhanced skills or you are overpriced compared to your skills.They are happy with cheap and less skilled labors."

Except that cheap labor is not doing too good a job keeping the economy going is it? Reply

Sep 15, 2011 9:37 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to DD
Apple CLOSED their R&R in India in 2006 and Apple is booming.It's now THE most valuable tech company in the world and it still hires mostly American developers.All the other tech companies are in decline using their cheap labor.So your argument doesn't quite hold, does it?

All that "costly" American labor in the 1990s created the biggest economic boom in US history.Parasites?We created all this stuff the 3rd world now makes a living off of.You're the parasites.Exceptional production deserves exceptional rewards.Get used to it or else demand baseball players stop making $40 million a year.

As for Friedman, NASSCOM/Wipro PAID him to write his 2 books hyping India.

As for training, it's Americans training their noob Indian counterparts who just got off the plane with a fake degree purchased in Punjab (google it).

Americans, many of whom made the effort to train and teach themselves are now training foreign wannabes and people have the nerve to say Americans are too stoopid and need training?We invented IT - long before all the MBAs, bean-counters, and wannabes from the rest of the world got here.

Just because we make $100K for very hard work and very long hours doesn't mean we're overpaid - it just means you're jealous because YOU can't make $100K.

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Sep 15, 2011 9:42 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

"Those who contributed in the fields of science, medicine, technology etc to make America what it is today are still flourishing"

Bell Labs - taken over by Arun Netravalli in 2003 and now being turned into a shopping mall.

PeopleSoft - invaded by Indian workers in 2001 - went under had to be sold off to Oracle. Same with Sun.

Lehman hired loads of Indoan workers and went under. So did Fannie Mae.

Mircosoft now employs 35,000 foreign workers and is in decline.

Citibank sent 45,000 jobs to India and had to be bailed out.

Adobe laid off most of its American staff and is in decline.

Cisco is staffed by mostly Indians and is gong down the tubes.

Flourishing? Oh, that's a good one. Except for Apple no one is flourishing in the US right now.

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Sep 16, 2011 6:33 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Wakjob

Apple also has a lot of H1B workers...so does Google.Maybe they are coming down too?

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Sep 16, 2011 6:41 AM samsara samsara  says: in response to Wakjob

And this is why Apple walked away from India..I guess Indians were not cheap enough!!

www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_25/b3989058.htm

"It wasn't meant to be. In late May, Apple dismissed most of the 30 new hires at its subsidiary in Bangalore. (A handful working in sales and marketing will stay on.) Spokesman Steve Dowling would say only that Apple had "reevaluated our plans" and decided to provide support from other countries. Another source familiar with the situation, though, says the decision was cost-driven. "India isn't as inexpensive as it used to be," the source says. "The turnover is high, and the competition for good people is strong." Apple feels it "can do more efficiently elsewhere."

"

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Sep 17, 2011 1:19 AM George Alexander George Alexander  says: in response to Wakjob

>>Lehman hired loads of Indoan workers and went under. So did Fannie Mae.

Yeah, blame Indians for all YOUR failures - here's a tip next time for your cry baby types - PAY YOUR BILLS AND MORTGAGES ON TIME!!!!. And here's some financial common sense that even small kids know - DON'T SPEND BEYOND YOUR MEANS. And here's another one...don't hire stupid politicians who pushed Fannie to give housing loans to people who can't afford it.

>>Thus India is the prime cause of all our economic problems.

waaaah I bought a house which I can't pay the mortgage for because of Indians. waaaaah! I keep shopping and shopping and having late credit card fees and can't pay my bills. Waaaaaah! It's India's fault. I don't want to work. waaaaah! It's India's fault. Waaaaaah! waaaah! Mommmy! Indians are making my life miserable. waaaah! I got constipation.... waaaah! india's fault. Mosquito died...waaaah! India's fault. Paint is still wet waaaaah! It's India's fault. I'm Obese...waaaah! India's fault. waaah waaaah waaaaaaaah!

yeah yeah yeah keep whining and blaming everyone else. Loosers like you will get laid off and replaced by fresher kids in India who can do a much better, no-complaining, hard working job at a fraction of the rate that you demand with twice the productivity. And they will pay their bills too. I'm guessing you already did. People like you will be phased out and I love doing that to lazy whining entitlement loosers who live off the system and drain the budgets of companies. I can proudly say that I've made departments much more better, efficient and cost effective by making your types TOTALLY REDUNDENT.  I'm thinking of contracting to an oil supplier company now closer to where I live. They have the same problem and want a serious upgrade of their systems and processes. the vice president of IT told me about this clique that can't do any 21st century stuff and won't let business achieve any goal through IT with all the new technology that's out there. I'm betting that your types exist in that company and I can't wait to go in and show how a real job is done and clean up IT in these companies. Who ya gonna call? lazywakjob busters!!!!

Take heart.  Go back to mommy. waaaaah!!!

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Sep 27, 2011 4:52 AM John John  says:

is the uscis really serious in straightening their processes? i know of so many people who use another work around to H1B restrictions. They join some local college, get 12 credits per quarter for subjects that they have already studied and don't need to go to college for. All this so that they can get an OPT and start working without having to worry about visa scrutiny. And they get OPt for pretty long. I could be mistaken but i think it is for 27 months (more than 2 years!) . To me it seems like uscis is just distributing visas to everyone to come and work here , so yes there will be a paucity of high end jobs and 1 in 10 will go jobless

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