Infosys CEO Fields Tough Questions About Visa Fraud Case

Don Tennant

Infosys executives on Tuesday were forced to address extremely uncomfortable issues about business visas in general, and the lawsuit filed by Infosys employee and whistleblower Jay Palmer in particular, as they faced financial analysts and the press in reporting the company's results for the quarter ending June 30.

 

In a press conference with several top execs at an Infosys campus recently renamed in honor of outgoing Infosys chairman Narayana Murthy in Mysore, India, outgoing Infosys CEO Kris Gopalakrishnan fielded the toughest questions. One of those questions was sparked by my July 8 post, "Infosys Tries to Show It's Cleaning up B1 Visa Act," in which I reported the existence of a document that Infosys recently prepared to provide guidelines for its employees on the use of B1 visas. Here's the question that a reporter posed to Gopalakrishnan:

Sir, we recently read a report saying that Infosys has revised its policy as far as people traveling to the U.S. is concerned. It's titled, "Business Visitor Travels to the U.S.: An Employee Guide." It's a 24-page document, we were told. Can you confirm that this has been done?

And here's Gopalakrishnan's response

We revise it periodically based on our current understanding, because we want to make sure of two things. One is we look at industry best practices and at our best practices. Second, we look at our understanding, and revise based on our understanding of the requirements. And this is something which we have done recently, yes.

I found it interesting that Gopalakrishnan, in acknowledging the document's existence, presented it as some sort of routine revision of something that already existed. That is inconsistent with the way the document was presented to employees internally. As I previously reported, an Infosys official positioned the document as the result of Infosys having "reviewed its current practices and established a comprehensive policy and procedures to which every employee MUST adhere." The official went on to inform employees of the need to "introduce the Corporate Policy of Business Visitor Travels to the U.S. and make you aware of the salient features of the policy." So it was clearly the establishment (as opposed to a revision) of a policy to which employees had to be introduced.

 

Gopalakrishnan was able to dodge a much easier generic request from another reporter for an update on the visa issues Infosys in facing in the United States, and when he expects them to be resolved:

There is nothing to update at this point. We are working with the authorities to resolve these issues, understand the nuances in usage of these visas, and working with the authorities. There is no other update I can provide at this point. Neither can I tell you when this will be behind us also, because again, that is a function of working with the authorities.

Another reporter drilled down a little, requesting a clarification about the distinction between Palmer's case and the investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice, and asking whether Palmer is still an Infosys employee. Gopalakrishnan's response:

So, Jay Palmer is still an employee. Yes, we have received a subpoena. We are working with the authorities in responding to the [subpoena]. I cannot give you any more details than what you yourself actually said. Because it is sub juris and I cannot give you any more details.

Another question focused on a project that Palmer had been working on that was canceled, and whether the cancellation was due to Palmer's allegations. Gopalakrishnan's response:

I cannot confirm or deny it other than to say he is an employee of Infosys. What other information that is available you also have that. That's all I can tell you.

A related question was difficult to make out, but it had to do with what Gopalakrishnan was hearing from his clients about "misuse or abuse of the H-1B." His response:

I can't be more specific than what I have been at this point. Because again, as you said, these are issues that need to be resolved. From a client perspective, if there are any questions placed, we are answering those questions to their satisfaction.

This question, on the other hand, came through loud and clear:

To what extent are the government of India and NASSCOM helping? [NASSCOM President] Som Mittal did say some [visa] guidelines are ambiguous and it's a matter of interpretation-they're having different definitions. These are gray areas, more to do with interpretation than violation, per se. What is the government doing, and what is the NASSCOM industry body doing to help out? Because Mr. Murthy said he was sad [see my June 12 post, "Infosys' Outgoing Chairman 'Sad' About Visa Fraud Investigation"].

Gopalakrishnan's hopeful response:

This is an industry issue. NASSCOM as well as the other industry associations are also working with industry to provide the proper support they can provide. I'm sure the government of India is also ready to support in any way they can in this regard.


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Jul 13, 2011 1:00 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says:

Infosys did not lie about one thing - B-1 visa fraud and abuse is NOT limited to their company.

Rampant B-1 (and other alphabet soup) visa fraud is well known, highly publicized, and widespread across the entire country.  Here's proof positive from a US Embassy India cable in  2009 on visa fraud.  

www.wikileaks.ch/cable/2009/10/09CHENNAI306.html ;

SUBJECT: India Biannual Fraud Update

During the six month period from March through August 2009, Mission India's consular sections identified a total of 3,596 cases of suspected visa fraud (Chennai - 1,237, New Delhi - 949, Mumbai - 809, Hyderabad - 523, Kolkata - 78).

Most of India's fraudulent applicants come from specific and easily defined regional areas within each consular district.  These states have some of the most mobile populations in India and the largest concentrations of expatriate communities overseas, including in the United States. 

NON-IMMIGRANT VISA FRAUD 

B1/B2 visa  fraud is the most commonplace. 

Regionally-based fraud rings throughout the country, but especially in Hyderabad, continue to produce fraudulent documents for visa application and travel purposes. 

- Some visa "consultants" and travel agents specialize in fraudulent experience letters and fake document packages, which include passport copies of false relatives, bogus financial documents, and affidavits of support.

In the last six months the number of reported B1/B2 fraud cases throughout the Mission has nearly doubled from 1,089 to 2,121.  The increase is mostly due to an increased use of the "suspicious docs" function ...

An investigation by the Chennai FPU in 2008 uncovered a visa fraud racket through which famous Tamil film actors and industry associates assisted mala fide applicants to obtain B1/B2 visas, purportedly to scout movie locations (ref Q). 

Over two hundred applicants applied for visas under this scheme, and 95 were issued. Thirty-eight of those applicants are confirmed overstays who are currently illegally present in the United States.  FPU revoked the visas of 56 other individuals, mostly Tamil film stars and industry associates, for their direct role in this visa scheme. 

The case generated significant press attention throughout India and appeared on all of the major news networks, thereby creating a very high-profile anti-fraud awareness campaign.

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Jul 13, 2011 1:03 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

It is truly astonishing that after years of being smugly told that there isn't anything the average software developer can do to prevent the gutting of the industry by unscrupulous companies, that we can actually see a CEO squirm a bit under the spotlight. This will be a turning point. I am hoping that a trend in terms of internal documents detailing visa fraud and shifty accounting practices being leaked results in the same prosecution as we saw with the Wall Street thugs. It will all be worth it to see one atleast indicted on criminal fraud charges.

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Jul 13, 2011 1:05 AM Chamat Chamat  says:

"My guess is that they have a document, just that it says things like "speak poor English and act confused any time they ask you a question.  Don't tell them you are a programmer - say analyst.  Talk about meetings, not projects" or something to that effect. "

Lawson my guess would be it should be something like if you see an american sitting on chair in all probability he would be an unskilled retard and would not understand anything logical so better to be dumb in front of another dumb.

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Jul 13, 2011 1:15 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

I think the US Consul officers should be trained by the Israeli security staff at Tel Aviv Airport. They ask a series of carefully cross indexed and detailed questions to trip up any potential terrorist by making them contradict their cover stories. The same techniques can also be used to determine the true nature of the applicant's reasons for travel.

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Jul 13, 2011 1:17 AM chmt chmt  says: in response to Chamat

Yes that is the problem. Dumb labor/developer/programer always thinks management, law, policy everything is stupid and he is the brightest one and start giving lecture. What he doesn't understand is how lower level in value chain he belongs and has no clue what is going on beyond their reach of understanding.

Whoever thinks this has hapenned in building up a 6 billion $ company ""speak poor English and act confused ........"; not only the company Infosys - it is showing entire USCIS, US govmnt their strategist, multi billion $ clients of Infosys everyone pure dumb. They probably never handled 100$ budget or contributed to any policy making and has any clue on law etc. These guys typically handle a 100 line code instead and wants to keep on doing whole life by some protection and keep lecturing about big stuff.

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Jul 13, 2011 1:31 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Chotadon

Sorry being patient doesn't help highly skilled US tech workers and their young families who are now homeless because they were laid off from their jobs - the chain reaction they lost their homes, life savings, health insurance and so much more.

Waiting due to corporate greed and fraud won't feed a young child now living out of his parent's car because daddy or mommy (with masters degrees and 10+ years industry experience) were replaced by foreign guest workers and their jobs are now only in India.

Waiting due to political corruption won't help young American talent who cannot even get local summer jobs, internships, or seats in classrooms because these positions have been siezed by foreign guest workers and their family members.

Waiting due to fear of speaking out won't help American citizens in need who  their entire lives eat or get medical care because they won't be getting their social security checks in August.

The BIG lie is only a BIG lie - There is an abundance of highly qualified American citizens with top tech skills.  American citizens have earned the right to get a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country.  

The outsourcers story violates the economic laws  of supply and demand - when skills are abundant, wages decline; when there's a shortage, wages rise. 

This ain't no flat world, free market correction... On-going, long term unemployment and declining wages are only explained by the cartel of corrupt, paid off politicians in Congress, and their benefactors, greedy billionaires, fraudulent outsourcers, and let them eat cake corporate executives. 

Americans, WAITING is NOT an option. DO NOT rollover and play dead - make sure YOUR voice is heard - fax your elected officials, report visa fraud and discrimination to the DOJ, and make sure your local media know the facts about what's going on. 

Blogging is a good way to vent, but it won't change the law.  Together, we can BE the change and restore America's American Dream.

YOU can make a difference - learn how you can help the USDOJ prosecute guest worker visa violators to the fullest extent of the law.   Learn more www.brightfuturejobs.com

The time is NOW for every day Americans' voices to be heard and counted.  Every day that passes means how many more homeless American families.  THIS IS WRONG and MUST be changed - SOONER not LATER 

Thank you

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Jul 13, 2011 1:34 AM No insults please No insults please  says: in response to chmt

Insulting American talent does not help you advance your cause, and does a disservice to your fellow countrymen.

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Jul 13, 2011 1:46 AM chmt chmt  says: in response to No insults please

It is wrong to stereo type anything and I never said American labor as a whole. If I target a certain group of people then it should not be generalized as American. I have full awareness about high skilled American work force. I don't know why always it becomes attack on America whenever you take a specific case and discuss on a narrow topic.

So yes I'm sorry if anyhow it came out as an attack or insulting American talent - I did not mean it.

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Jul 13, 2011 2:01 AM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to Jobs4US

I agree to your sentiment and your agenda looks different.

There is a difference between calling companies like Infosys are cheat, criminal etc where they are palying a fair game and all you want is to change the game.

Infosys never lie that they are here to hire local people. They infact say they want to win flat world and you said "This ain't no flat world". So looks like these are 2 opposite forces competing each other and you want to win that competition. But just calling an opponent cheat or criminal is not the way to go.

Someone has to change the game and may be in the process totally thorw out Infosys out of the game, rather than complaining about them and asking them to hire americans.

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Jul 13, 2011 2:15 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Chotadon

I am sorry Infosys clearly violated US immigration law by illegally sending its workforce on B-1 visas to work onsite in the USA. There's no shade of gray interpreting this law.     Our loophole and fraud ridden H-1b laws are less clear.

Just because you don't like the law doesn't mean you don't need to follow it. I am 100% certain that expatriats working in your country would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Do you expect Infosys/Nasscom to change US law to their benefit and throw even more US citizens under the bus? 

WE the PEOPLE, not exclusively greedy billionaires have a voice in framing US law. Unfortunately corporate visa fraud has flown under the radar screen and seems mainstream media has an embargo on these stories.   

The sleeping giant, the American public, has woken up and our voice will be heard - loud and clear.  Like India, America has a reponsibility to ensure that US citizens get a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country.  Many, many countries, including India, are far more aware of their responsibilities to their own citizens.   Sadly, US politicians only hear corporate greed, not people in need.

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Jul 13, 2011 2:24 AM Equal Opportunity for all US Citizens Equal Opportunity for all US Citizens  says: in response to chmt

"What he doesn't understand is how lower level in value chain he belongs and has no clue what is going on beyond their reach of understanding"

What???????  This is the USA, NOT India.  The USA does NOT have a caste system.  

US law dictates that all US citizens, regardless of race, religion, disability, have equal rights under US law.  The US Civil Rights Act outlawed segregated employment in 1964.

What part of EQUAL Opportunity is unclear?

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Jul 13, 2011 2:29 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

I'd be really interested in knowing whether Palmer had been offered a financial deal by Infosys in exchange for his silence.

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Jul 13, 2011 2:34 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Jobs4US

LOL, the pad shills are coming out of the woodwork here. It can only mean one thing - Don is right now!!!

You go, Don!!!

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Jul 13, 2011 2:45 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

I think a "sting" operation should be conducted where applicants apply with the same resume except one being a US citizen/Green Card holder and another a foreign worker. Film & record the entire thing. A couple of such should serve to provide some interesting experiences for public analysis.

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Jul 13, 2011 2:56 AM America's American Dream America's American Dream  says: in response to hireamerican

Sorry I'm no "pad shill".

I'm a highly skilled tech pro,  masters degree and on-going tech certifications with honors, and years of success working for the world's largest tech firms. 

My position was "eliminated", my job split into several jobs, and replaced by multiple guest workers on alphabet soup visas.   Like everyone, I experienced far more losses than just my job but this isn't going to stop me.

My professional record, unblemished, my skill and success, undisputed.

Why was I laid off?  My entire management chain, 100% guest workers.   All guest workers on my team, most in the US less than 6 months, stayed.  As the sole American, I was the sacrificial cow.

Mad? You bet.   But complaining won't change the law. I'm fighting hard to make sure unfair loopholes in US guest worker laws are closed and give me, you, and our kids, a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country. 

Join me, together we can be the change.

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Jul 13, 2011 3:14 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to America's American Dream

Sorry...typo...I meant 'paid shills' that came on here defending Infosys. I think these paid shills are engaged when the truth is coming to the fore. They come on here, do their darndest to discredit and steer things away from the truth, so people are discouraged.

Sorry, paid shills. The cows have come home. You all's gig is up.

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Jul 13, 2011 3:32 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to SealTeam6

Palmer is refraining from speaking publicly on the explicit instructions of his attorney. Believe me, if he had his way, Palmers' would be the loudest voice of all.

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Jul 13, 2011 3:38 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Don Tennant

So Infosys is in a bind. They don't want to fire Palmer because it will show them in an even worse light. In addition Palmer seems to have to really damning evidence of coverup and possible bribery involving Infosys executives. This might cross the border between a civil into a criminal trial. Through in violations of Federal immigration law and that makes for a potent case.

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Jul 13, 2011 3:40 AM chmt chmt  says: in response to Equal Opportunity for all US Citizens

I said value chain in a company or corporate world and not a caste system in India.

You must be one of those so don't understand these terms :P

... just joking don't take it seriously

However, I was just wondoring what part of my comment exactly indicated you that I'm talking about cast system in India. It is like those kind of people who jump the gun without understanding anything. The story of cast system is playing so much in your head in the back ground that you don't even follow the discussion and did not waste a single oppertunity to bring that in the discussion

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Jul 13, 2011 3:48 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

I am hoping this the "Rosa Parks Moment" for American software professionals. We've been kicked off the bus for over a decade now. Too long has the industry been run by bus drivers like Infosys and the like.

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Jul 13, 2011 3:49 AM Chmt Chmt  says: in response to hireamerican

"so people are discouraged." ~ what people and discouraged from what? Just like Don thinks he is journalist, you also think you are doing some courageous act by passing time here?

Infosys might hire some paid shills or for that matter keep Don on their payroll once followers of the blog goes beyond 10 people.

Before that it is just time pass for others like what you do

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Jul 13, 2011 3:52 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Chmt

So exactly why are you here ? Are you an Infosys employee. I suppose an honest answer might not be easy for you...

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Jul 13, 2011 4:00 AM US Law trumps Infosys company policy US Law trumps Infosys company policy  says: in response to chmt

In the USA, it doesn't matter if the criminal is the lowest or highest person in the company.   Crime is crime - period. 

-> Furthermore, knowledge of a felony and doing nothing about it is also a felony. 

The United States of America, not Infosys, wrote the law. 

It doesn't matter if the law is inconvenient to a company - every employee up and down the hierarchy is accountable for reporting felony offenses, otherwise, they too are committing a felony and face legal, criminal, and civil consequences..  

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Jul 13, 2011 4:14 AM chmt chmt  says: in response to US Law trumps Infosys company policy

I think you are same person and changed name but you got it wrong again. First you thought I was saying about "Indian cast system" and now you think I'm talking about "anyone above in value chain is beyond law". You are missing entire point so I can't explain anymore.

That is the point that people just talk around like headless chicken and do not understand any argument here. (again don't assume and put words in my mouth that I'm talking about Americans)

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Jul 13, 2011 4:19 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to chmt

You are on an American blog that is discussing American jobs and American workers and an American legal case relating to both of those entities. Who exactly are you talking about ? If it isn't related to that content than perhaps you are on the wrong blog. Your fractured syntax doesn't exactly lend itself to easy interpretation either.

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Jul 13, 2011 4:30 AM chmt chmt  says: in response to SealTeam6

To understand you have to follow the context of the discussion and have some logical reasoning. You have to follow trail of discussion.

It will be very difficult for you so don't try that. Stick to your agenda.

I wanted to ask you 'who should be here?' when you asked me "exactly why are you here ? "

But I got my answer in next post -

"an American blog that is discussing American jobs and American workers and an American legal case relating to both of those entities. Who exactly are you talking about ?"

Ok Master I won't talk anymore - you can ask Headmaster to block me also to be safe.

Anyone else please don't ask me further question - you can just ignore.

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Jul 13, 2011 4:32 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Chmt

For you it is timepass....for us it is our livelyhood, our children's well being and our country's future. Enough said.

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Jul 13, 2011 4:34 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to chmt

Oh I don't think you should be blocked. Your posts are just serving to confirm that you are an Infosys or similar company shill or employee panicked by the discussion here.

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Jul 13, 2011 4:45 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Jobs4US

Your comment: "Many, many countries, including India, are far more aware of their responsibilities to their own citizens.   Sadly, US politicians only hear corporate greed, not people in need."

  Really!!!! I don't think you did some background check before declaring this statement, it is 100% false in India. Only corporate(s) get what they want (this seems to be fit in US) citizens get peanuts.

  People who are in comfortable position (job, food, home...) don't want to move their finger against any fraud, corruption...all they do is enjoy their earning and cry in every possible blog/forums ( I call them as keyboard tigers).

People who are in uncomfortable position (lost job, home and waiting for unemployment check) thinks some god will come and give them a job or everyone else will fight for them when they sleep at home. Have so much confident on their elected politicians...that everything they will take care...because I had got him that job....

You are right, People has to wake-up otherwise no use in crying. They need to meet their elected politicians once a week/month and push them to do what they are suppose to do.

Here is what I would do if I am so mad at immigrants, Instead of working for day labor or collect unemployment insurance, I will gather those 14million unemployed citizens and filter the best and brightest to 2millions (which is more than 1.5millions h1b visa approved so far in past 2 decades) across country who can fill all h1 jobs.

List the all companies who are hired/hiring H1b's, get the labor certification data (from flcdatacenter.com) and start applying for those jobs for the salary mentioned in LCA (it will for sure higher than unemployment insurance of $250/week - $400/week). Keep doing this until all H1 gets laid off (and make sure my company gets return ticket for every h1 laid off as per law) and gets back to their home country.

With whole company is filled with only citizens  and now I will request every citizen to actively monitor their respective company for any fraud on other work visas like L1, B1 etc and keep blowing my whistle till all fraud is stopped. And protect my colleague if he/she is reporting to me and who blows the whistle of any fraud to govt.

By doing those I will be happy for getting jobs to fellow citizens, corporate(s) will be happy on getting cheap labors (as per your view on h1b) and finally all immigrants will be out of your country who are main reason behind all the trouble (as per your view).

If I can't do any of those I will logoff from these kind of blog/forums and start watching movies. There is no use in fighting only in internet forums, I don't know when people are going to understand this fact!!!!.

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Jul 13, 2011 4:52 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

Funny concept...here is what I think the out come will be...

You can fake resumes but not the accent so you will be busted in the 1st conversation itself.

And I don't think you can get a foreign worker for this operation...because they always fear of exposing a employer.

And I don't think you can get a US citizen/Green Card holder who was a foreign worker too because they don't waste their time in this kind of stink job.

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Jul 13, 2011 4:59 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to America's American Dream

Your comment: "My position was "eliminated", my job split into several jobs, and replaced by multiple guest workers on alphabet soup visas.   Like everyone, I experienced far more losses than just my job but this isn't going to stop me."

No offense here...what is benefit that company would have got by eliminating you with several people ? It doesn't make business sense to replace one employee with several people unless that company paid millions in salary. If they did just because they hate you then I don't think your talent fit with that organization. I never want to work for an organization which don't like me (for whatever reason) and I don't work for a organization (in general it is always because of person I report to) the moment I started dislike it.

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Jul 13, 2011 5:02 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Everyone has a price :P

What's yours.

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Jul 13, 2011 5:04 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

It's called increasing awareness. DUH!!

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Jul 13, 2011 5:06 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

There are Indian American actors who can fake an Indian accent if needed from what I have seen. Most sting operations use people pretending to be the dupes. They don't have to be engineers or developers at all.

Anyway, I'm sure if there is the will to bring these companies to justice, there is a way to prove their underhanded tactics.

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Jul 13, 2011 5:17 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Chamat

"Lawson my guess would be it should be something like if you see an american sitting on chair in all probability he would be an unskilled retard and would not understand anything logical so better to be dumb in front of another dumb."

People with grammar skills like that should think carefully before using words like "dumb", "unskilled" and "retard". 

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Jul 13, 2011 5:42 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Chotadon

"But you are not doing that Don already started calling them criminal and when their CEO rightly not commenting anything on sub juris you are making fun of that."

Yes, because we know the CEO is making an excuse not to answer direct questions.  If Infosys is in the clear, obviously truthful statements would only help them.  If Infosys is behaving responsibly they should gladly tell us the truth.  Shout it from the roof-top Infosys! 

"In the process you are clearly showing you have no idea how a CEO attends a press conf"

No, we know exactly how CEOs speak at press conferences.  And now you know how bloggers and other commenters react to their BS.

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Jul 13, 2011 5:46 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to R. Lawson

LOL.....Chotadon must be referring to Indian CEOs press conference speaking skills:P

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Jul 13, 2011 5:52 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

The US Consulates in India need to make a version of this video for India.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LiorPHmGyY&;

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Jul 13, 2011 6:30 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to SealTeam6

Oh welll...look at this video....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA7MhXZvHWk&;feature=related

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Jul 13, 2011 6:45 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to hireamerican

I guess we're doomed then :-|

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Jul 13, 2011 6:59 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to SealTeam6

With 14 trillion in debt, we already are. And to think we had a surplus when Clinton left office......

Disclaimer: I am no fan of Clinton.

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Jul 13, 2011 7:03 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to R. Lawson

People with grammar skills like that should think carefully before using words like "dumb", "unskilled" and "retard".

these words have nothing to do with being logical and that's what the point is, which is again proved by another American who might belong to one of the categories mentioned above. cheers!

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Jul 13, 2011 7:07 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

Price I paid....new and better job with better position and salary which I like....is it that bad ?

I don't believe on building a nest around me in a single organization. I will quite a job when the organization or I feel of not adding any value there.

I feel sad when someone work for an organization for 20+yrs and cry it is "my job" which was replaced by someone. Do they really know there is nothing called "my job" unless it is the organization which is yours and created and operated by you.

Someone/group took the risk of creating a organization believing there is a business opportunity and provide jobs for others just to make more business to earn more (otherwise why would they invest money to start a company). When they feel someone/division is not adding value because of business environment change or competition...they fire....

why do I have to cry and crib about it...just look for place where my expertise fit and where I get the due respect for my knowledge and expertise...instead of crying for the lost job.

If my field of expertise is getting extinct, which I should have smelled quite early (because I claim expert in the field) I should have put effort to learn something new in which I can continue my work.

How many people who lost job started a company and provided job to others ? Just keep crying for someone else company fired me for xyz reason is worst thing I can do to myself.

I wonder when someone claim they got replaced with an immigrant because of cheap labor....what do they mean by cheap labor ?

If I get paid $100k+ with tons of experience and do a job where same job can be done by 5yrs+ experience guy then what is the need for that company to keep me. What right I have to argue with my company to continue paying me $100k+ when they can get the job done with $75k+.

I don't see there is lot (there are very few I can say) of IT jobs which requires 15yrs+ experience because this field gets changed every year. The moment IT world gets changed even 15yrs+ guys (with $100k+ salary) has to learn new thing and do his job where as same thing can be learned by 5yrs+ guys (with $65l - $75k+ salary) and deliver the same.

Also when I am ready/have to live with unemployment benefit which is around $200/week - $450/week after getting fired (I always fire organizations) from $2000/week - $2500/week salary why can't I get a new job with lesser salary ($1250/week - $1700/week) than those immigrant ready to do (where company has to pay salary + other immigration related expenses). Once I get a job with basic salary and will continue my great work till market is good to jump into better job instead of crying....this way I keep a immigrant out of my country and I keep my family with the basic needs for few months/years (I always make sure I have savings for 6months of my expenses).

Why should I always be looking for only greatest job (i believe whatever job it is if done well it is the great job) in US, all jobs in a company doesn't need to of greatest job and need great person. When time is bad I should live below means (if I leave luxury life) and when time are good I can get back to my normal/luxury life.

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Jul 13, 2011 7:11 AM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to R. Lawson

No you don't. Just because you say so doesn't change the fact. Just your argument clearly shows how ignorant and illogical you can be.

It looks like 13 year old girl arguing - without any substance - "we know", "No, we know exactly ", "now you know" - just you claiming everything doesn't make it true. People like you always stay developer whole life - unless you develop any other skills just don't try to show off.

Your full time work to do all this BS here and there - nothing much to point out - so let's not continue on such a fashion. Just one more time you claim back that I don't know anything and you know everything and stop this kiddish loop. :P

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Jul 13, 2011 7:12 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

Waiting for who's will to get a way...I can throw tons of ideas provided I am not going to implement it. Instead of throwing ideas take your will and get some results. I will be more than happy see the results.

If you want any help let me know.

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Jul 13, 2011 7:17 AM Mike Mike  says:

Highly irresponsible writing. This is a gossip page now. IT business edge are going the TMZ way!!!

Let the accused be proven wrong in a court of law, before you start sensationalizing this case. Their CEO's response was absolutely correct. You hv no authority to ask for an earlier copy of a document!!

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Jul 13, 2011 7:19 AM hiremerican hiremerican  says: in response to who knows

It is not that Americans lack skills, it is more about indentured servants that are the H1bs. Guess what happens when businesses replace local Americans with cheap foreign labor that does not spend money within the US? Well....the businesses lose their market, and lose out in the end,which is what is playing out right in front of our eyes. The US was never as broke as it is now :P

And, btw, upgrading of skills you mention....it is not rocket sceince or brain surgery. It takes a few weeks to learn the skills. Americans are totally capable of learning those skills, provided they have the access, which I know they are being deliberately kept away from by the Indian outsourcing companies.

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Jul 13, 2011 7:41 AM Desi Hero Desi Hero  says: in response to hiremerican

"Americans are totally capable of learning those skills, provided they have the access, which I know they are being deliberately kept away from by the Indian outsourcing companies."

They need passion more than access. current generation of Americans lack that passion and look only for comfort without paying an price for that.

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Jul 13, 2011 7:55 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

"I don't see there is lot (there are very few I can say) of IT jobs which requires 15yrs+ experience because this field gets changed every year. "

Right. So I suppose since new medicines and treatments come out every year (like new programming frameworks et al), we don't need doctors with greater than 15 years of analytical experience ? Your inability to distinguish between the tools from the analytical skills a senior engineer has to have says a lot. Good engineering is independent of the tool of the day. Then again you should know  that.

You build these contrived straw men of convoluted examples that apparently mean something only to you.

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Jul 13, 2011 7:57 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Desi Hero

Let's get them access first...then we can test their passion.

Is losing their jobs, their homes and their lives is enough price for you :P

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Jul 13, 2011 8:00 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Mike

There is freedom of speech. Or didn't you know that , ..."Mike" ? As more whistle blowers step forward more of this will be proved.

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Jul 13, 2011 8:03 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Desi Hero

Yeah right. Make everyone play by the same rules and then we'll see who lacks passion. Right now the rules are being bent and broken. Once that is fixed, the system will balance and this nonsense will stop.

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Jul 13, 2011 8:24 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Mike

"You hv no authority to ask for an earlier copy of a document!!"

Apparently there is no document.  Journalists, bloggers, and citizens have every right to ask.  Infosys has the right to say "no".  And we have the right to criticize them for suppressing information after they refuse to provide it.  They made a claim and are either unable or unwilling to back it up.

It is the job of journalists to ask tough questions, and apparently it is the job of CEOs and their lackeys to deny it. 

How about a bit of disclosure Mike - who are you employed by?  It isn't perhaps Infosys or some other outplacement shop?

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Jul 13, 2011 8:37 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to R. Lawson

Dont know about Mike's employer but I it seems you have always  been an independent contractor or worked with small organizations. You need to look around and understand how an organization works. asking for policy in word doc made it clear the kind of employer you worked with who dont even publish policies in non editable tools like PDF.

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Jul 13, 2011 8:44 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Desi Hero

"They need passion more than access. current generation of Americans lack that passion and look only for comfort without paying an price for that."

If we lacked passion we wouldn't be here fighting you and the corporate criminal cabals in India for every last job. 

The success of Indian companies rest on their ability to exploit and/or break immigration laws, the Indian government to unfairly manipulate their currency, and a country willing to live with a growing trade deficit in both goods and services.  Each of those things are in jeopardy.  The harder Indian companies fight, the more obvious their vulnerabilities become.

Americans don't always do things the best way the first time around, but eventually we get it "more right".  I wouldn't place any bets against the United States or the American IT workforce.

High unemployment in the United States is our weakness, but it is also our strength.  It highlights flaws in the system and is waking up the American people.  After the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese commander's response was that they had "awakened a sleeping giant".  In many ways that is true today.  Americans have been asleep - distracted by "reality TV" and a corporate owned media. 

Wakey-Wakey America.

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Jul 13, 2011 9:02 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Chamat

Yes, small organizations like Intel and PwC.  I'm architecting solutions for another fortune 500 now.  You know - small time stuff.  We are all hoping some hotshot like you will show up and save us.  Thank God you've arrived!

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Jul 13, 2011 9:30 AM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to R. Lawson

and got eventually fired from those and ........

you are not architecting ....you are developing stay that way big mouth.

Doesn't matter what you do you will stay always developer.

Fortune 500 or 5000000000 has anyone ever reported to you???

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Jul 13, 2011 9:32 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

"I found it interesting that Gopalakrishnan, in acknowledging the document's existence, presented it as some sort of routine revision of something that already existed. That is inconsistent with the way the document was presented to employees internally. "

I would be interested in seeing prior versions of that same document.  If you have the original and if it is in Word format, check for history (change tracking feature in MS Word).  If not, maybe some kind soul will provide older versions.

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Jul 13, 2011 9:35 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to R. Lawson

There was no older version, Roy. That's the point.

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Jul 13, 2011 9:47 AM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to R. Lawson

"The success of Indian companies rest on their ability to exploit and/or break immigration laws" ~

No stupid!! That means your "immigration laws" are stupidest ever law created on earth, but it is not so - you are so stupid that you can't grasp all aspect of those - so get busy with correcting your compilation errors - Laws are not cup of your tea.

"Americans have been asleep - distracted by "reality TV" and a corporate owned media." ~ Americans were busy spending and protecting worthlesses like you and now they don't do anymore - they are all set to kick sorry a$$es like yours

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Jul 13, 2011 9:48 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Chotadon

It's pretty clear you are just here to provoke a response.  Maybe you want me to say something you can use as leverage.

I hope IT Business Edge is able to block your IP from posting.  Not because you say things I don't agree with but because you really aren't here to make a point or hold a discussion.  You are here to subvert discussion. 

I am ignoring your comments from here on out.  I would encourage others to ignore your comments as well. 

Chotadon is a flamer. 

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Jul 13, 2011 10:08 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

There is a general tone of baiting and thinly veiled if not overtly insulting behavior by these posters. I am sure they are hoping to provoke a response . My guess is these guys are either told to scour the blogs to try and discredit the posters by such strategies. We're not going to fall for that . 

Once more: who do you work for ? Simple question.

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Jul 13, 2011 10:16 AM Rahul das Shah Rahul das Shah  says:

The company will close before December 2013.

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Jul 13, 2011 10:24 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to SealTeam6

Whats wrong with you guys? why are you so afraid to contradict a blogger when he is a fellow american? You dont even have spine to point out obvious mistakes in the blog and like to talk about whistleblower policy.  You guys are trying to provoke people to send their company's policy which you are not able to procure from other sources, is this not a cheap act?

Again all questions asked are very simple

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Jul 13, 2011 10:30 AM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to R. Lawson

"the Japanese commander's response was that they had "awakened a sleeping giant" ~ at this point in your life you probably hate every race (Indian, Brit, German, Chinese and what not) other than japanese. Be happy being giant in front of them and stop fooling around elsewhere!

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Jul 13, 2011 10:34 AM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to R. Lawson

Just from this discussion show chronologically how many points you made logically before saying I'm not here to "make a point". There is no logic or point that you agree or disagree - you just agree or disagree.

Lawson is a flame.

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Jul 13, 2011 10:43 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Don Tennant

You mean they lied?  That doesn't seem like something a highly-reputable firm like Infosys would do.

(tongue in cheek)

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Jul 13, 2011 10:45 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to Chotadon

If you talk about logic he will talk about Grammar of his first language. So please dont ask about logic.

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Jul 13, 2011 10:47 AM LOL LOL  says: in response to Don Tennant

"One of those questions was sparked by my July 8 post" ~

LOL...nothing is sparked by your post Don. All your reports are sparked by google search of word 'Infosys' and then searching news from mainstream media... otherwise just personal opinion.

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Jul 13, 2011 10:52 AM RDS RDS  says: in response to Don Tennant

"There was no older version, Roy. That's the point." ~

What is your source for that? Why are you so confident? As mentioned Lawson, it will be now upto individuals then who to believe.

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Jul 13, 2011 10:55 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to Don Tennant

You mean in a company with as many as 150,000 empolyees there didnt exsist a policy on Business visa and they did business for over 30 yrears??? I admire your courage when you say this in public and also your confidence on your own post that Journalist in India read this before asking Qs to Kris! I think its not "from under the rug" but its "from someone else mug" -Cheers

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Jul 13, 2011 11:03 AM BT1024 BT1024  says:

R. Lawson's been commenting on this blog for a while, so I am sure he noticed this  - But, something changed around here (on this blog) recently. I am not sure if it was Don's "I Was Wrong, The H-1B Visa Program Must Be Abolished" article, or his blogging on the Infosys case that caused the change... But, we seem to have a whole new group of commenters, with new names... And as "SealTeam6" noted, they seem to communicate with "fractured syntax" and as R. Lawson noted, "grammar skill" issues... And some of them are posting negative comments about the skills and work ethic of American workers.

So, it seems that a while back when it was just "anti-h-1b" folks commenting here, there was much discussion about the negativity of the "anti-h-1b" folks and their comments - But, now look at the "other side" (which I presume are indians) and the comments they are posting - I guess their "tone" doesn't do much to help present their case...

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Jul 13, 2011 11:14 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Mike

I didn't ask for an earlier copy of the document. There is no earlier copy of the document.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:15 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hiremerican

Which part of my comment says Americans lack skills ?

One place you argue the job is of high tech in nature which requires great skills and immediately change your tone and say cheap foreign labor.....both cannot not co-exist either one can be true for any given position.

You never responded my question of how cheap is cheap for you ?

Is it a salary less than $65k/yr is cheap ?And you never came with credible source or numbers to prove your argument.All you did was throw some vague assumptions, hate, useless and trash comments.

But you are right on one thing "US was never as broke as it is now"...but do you have any clue why...don't say it is because of h1b's then your are pure ignorant and working hard to hide truth with your trash comments.

Let me try to provide some data to understand

In last two decades (1992 - 2010) total h1b approved (doesn't mean job was provided...just approval count) is 1.5million...

Since all approved doesn't count as came to US let say 80% really reached US..which brings down the count to 1.2million

In those two decades US had two bubbles (dot-com in 2000 and housing/finance bubble in 2008 ) and for various other reasons 20% left US ...which brings down the total to 1.2million jobs.

So total jobs taken (which I my opinion not taken) by immigrants could be 1.2million jobs in last two decades (1992 - 2010).

Now let us take unemployment rate in those two decades.

When first H1 program got started at 1992 (max cap was 65000 but actual approved was 48600 ) for start date of employment as Oct 1 1992 and as of Jan 1992 unemployment rate in US is around 7.5% and by Oct 1992 it was @ 7.3%(in numbers 9398000).So if 48600 people started getting in US we should expect unemployment should raise gradually but unemployment rate as of Oct 1993 was 6.8%( in numbers 8750000).Instead of raising unemployment rate as going down because h1b was not easy to get and it was not used for replacing any american.

This scenario of unemployment rate going down was continued and at one point it touched 3.8% (in numbers 5481000) on April 2000.From 1992 - 1999 (1999 quota ends by April 2000 and h1b resource can start their work from Oct 1999) total H1b approved was 524,800, don't forget that all approved visa won't land in US jobs.

By March 2000 dot-com bubble was fully realized by people and IT field was heavily affected and unemployment rate started climbing after some time...still by April 2001 unemployment rate was around 4.4% (in numbers 6271000) after April 2001 unemployment rate started climbing heavily.

Let finish the account for a decade...so till 2002 total H1b approved was 882,500 and unemployment rate as of April 2002 5.9% (in numbers 8599000).When there is no unemployment increase (actually it was decreasing) due to immigrant from 1992 - 2000 there is no reason to believe that was the case from 2000 - 2002 (with additional 242700 approval and because of dot-com bubble most of them not came to US and there are people already started returning from US).As a side note outsourcing started during this time frame by returned Indians using their established contacts in US.

Lets continue....

Now out of 1.5million approved h1b's already 0.8 millions (if at all we consider every h1b approved people came to US) where in US and still the unemployment rate is 5.9%  Reply

Jul 13, 2011 11:15 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hiremerican
(in numbers 8599000) as of April 2002.

Now lets take up to next lowest unemployment rate which happened at Oct 2006 when it reached 4.4% (in numbers 6727000) and by that time total H1 approved has reached 1.13 million.

And don't miss that by this time US is already deep into two wars and spending is at its high.

Now lets take up the highest unemployment point which happened at Oct 2009 when it reached 10.10% (in numbers 15628000).Don't forget that US has already approved 1.09 million by Oct 2006.

So from 2007-2009 (2009 approved h1b person can start working Oct 2009) total h1b approved was 255000 ( again all approved number doesn't translates into jobs accepted) which alone cannot contribute 5.7% (in numbers 8901000) unemployment rate increase from 4.4% to 10.10%.195000 new h1b approval which is just 2.2% of new unemployed citizens (new unemployed is 8901000).

And finally for 2010 total H1b approved was 85000 and unemployment rate as of June 2011 is 9.1% (14087000).If we claim new jobs (1541000 number of jobs) created from Oct 2009 till June 2001 is because of 65000 h1b's then we can take blame of any unemployment created when new h1b's gets approved.

PS:Feel free to correct any data which is not right.

Data used are from

Bureau of Labor Statistics - www.bls.gov/data/#unemployment

Foreign Labor Certification Data center - flcdatacenter.com/

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Jul 13, 2011 11:26 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to BT1024

Just to be clear, I have no problem looking past minor grammar issues and I understand that our world is diverse and not everyone has mastered English writing or speaking.  That's OK.

My remark regarding grammar was in the context of that individual insulting Americans as "dumb", "unskilled" and "retard(ed)".  I don't normally point out grammar but if someone wants to use pejoratives like that they invite the attention.

I've seen some people (from India I presume) who used less than perfect grammar but still made intelligent and passionate arguments.  I'm not the grammar police and I never call people on that.  If I did, I would be in trouble because I don't check my spelling very well. 

I am more than willing to debate people and respect their viewpoints, even if I disagree, no matter where they are from or their grammar skills.  I welcome people from India and Infosys to discuss this particular story with me.  But I won't continue discourse with someone who must make every comment a personal attack.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:28 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

YAWN!! I don't have the inclination to read your long winded post. It has no substance to it.

On another note....Oh my!!! The paid shills are out in full force. I can tell this is the beginning...more will come...but we will not back down!!

Tomorrow, we vote for ending greencard lottery. We are just getting started.....every fake resume will be investigated.......

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Jul 13, 2011 11:34 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

Your long winded "analysis" doesn't include major issues like under employment, where people are employed but at wages far lower than they had before the influx of wage depressing H1-B workers.

My opinion is that until the guest worker visa program is reworked, the entire program must be suspended while an audit of both the labor certification process here in the US and the manner in which US consulates screen applicants is done. The system cannot be fixed while it is still allowed to function.

The US is one of the few countries in the world that is already extremely generous in terms of granting residency. How many countries can claim the equivalent of the 14th Amendment where a child born on US soil is automatically granted US citizenship ? I don't think we need to justify our opposition to something like the H1-B that has been rampantly abused and misused.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:37 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

Not directed at me, but I'll bite: "You never responded my question of how cheap is cheap for you ?  Is it a salary less than $65k/yr is cheap ?"

"Cheap" is really based on a market (region), skill, and point in time.  So $65k a year for an unskilled laborer is obviously not "cheap".  $65k a year in New York City for a Senior Level C# Developer is very cheap.

Fortunately we don't need to really debate "cheap".  We can look at average pay based on education, experience, job function, and region to find relatively accurate pay ranges.  I would call anything to the left of the middle of the bell curve "cheap" - ranging from just slightly cheap to extremely cheap. 

Because the H-1b visa was intended to serve a shortage and we all know that when there is a shortage of something the price goes up.  It becomes expensive.  As such, I believe that everyone on an H-1b visa should be "expensive" - meaning the top 75 percentile and certainly no less than the 50 percentile of earners.  That requirement will assure us that H-1b workers are only used to fill shortages and not to subsidize industry with "cheap" labor.

Unfortunately there are far more H-1b workers in the lower 25 percentile than the top 75 percentile.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:40 AM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to R. Lawson

Even I dont prefer insulting an entire group by generalising things. My comment came in reply for baseless assumption on policy of a company which has several thousand people who are not even part of so called business visa 'fraud'.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:46 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Obviously your analytical skills show what end of the spectrum your abilities lie on.

In addition to technical skills, communication skills  are required for accurate project implementation. The communication and language skills I'm seeing here in your posts (and the other fractured fraternity) leaves a lot to be desired. I see long winded circular erroneous arguments. I've been in this business for 20+ years. I have a BS in EE and an MS in CS. I know how projects are run having done all aspects of it. You seem to have no clue.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:55 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy too much of generic comment doesn't make your point right. US need to tighten their immigration visa norms to make sure it is not exploited.

I see one generic issue and kind of reason (though it is wrong to do so)

Abuse of B1 visa for short term visit, this is legitimate issue which is there and needs a urgent fix. But for a moment lets look at the reason behind these kind of abuse (again I am not arguing this is right...to me it is 100% fraud and needs to be punished)

Say I am running a business and got a client in US, now I want to meet my client to understand their business and do reasonable task in US before taking control of the job for develop in my offshore center. All I need is a short term visa which won't cost me too much (because I may or may not get this project/contract) and resource I send won't quit me in the middle.

Now let us see what kind of visas will work

H1- this works but it has its own time frame to start and get it approved. Also it has Oct as start data of job and the resource can change his employer the moment he lands in US (to risky to sponsor H1)

L1 - This works perfectly but it comes with restriction of using it for already under development project and the resource can come-in on L1 for implementation.

B1 - Super easy to get but it comes with certain restriction like you cannot perform any kind of payable work in US.

Let me know if any other visa a company can use in this scenario.

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Jul 13, 2011 11:56 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Chamat

It would be easy enough to prove me wrong, wouldn't you agree?

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Jul 13, 2011 11:59 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

The right move should be to look at the flawed business model, not break the law.

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Jul 13, 2011 12:01 PM chmt chmt  says: in response to Don Tennant

No. Thing is no one significant even care much to prove you wrong

unsignificant others will just give their own esteemed judgement - some will call you hero some will abuse you and matter will end and you will write your next "report".

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Jul 13, 2011 12:09 PM Chamat Chamat  says: in response to Don Tennant

The fact that company did business for over 3 decades and grew from few odd people to 150,000 employees itself says that there exist a policy on Business visa. It's all together different thing if you were able to get that from your "reliable resource" or not. I don't have anything doc leaked from anywhere to prove you wrong. Cheers!

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Jul 13, 2011 12:28 PM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to chmt

Yes this blog is notthing about proving anything or being at least questionable on personal opinion. No matter how much Don says words liike "fraud", "criminal";  noone asks him to "prove it". Neither he attends any press conf to at least answer any counter question on what he is claiming. So why suddenly one needs to prove something. let him write his "reports" and followers be happy.

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Jul 13, 2011 12:29 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don to me it looks like irresponsible reporting. Indirectly you want to say "I report whatever I feel right and it is the person/companies responsibility to prove me wrong."

Responsible journalist won't go with your approach, as a journalist it is your bounded duty to verify your source and information, if you can't better say I am not sure rather speculate.

I am deeply disappointed with your response, now your reporting seems to be close to what "LOL" was suggesting.

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Jul 13, 2011 12:34 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Chotadon

"Yes this blog is notthing about proving anything or being at least questionable on personal opinion. No matter how much Don says words liike "fraud", "criminal";  noone asks him to "prove it"."

We know that Infosys imports over 80% of their US employees.  We don't know exact numbers, so we've asked them to prove that they are making a good faith effort to hire American workers first.  They won't (and can't).

They will also most likely settle with Jay and seal the records as part of an arbitrated settlement.  Clearly it isn't Don hiding the truth.  Infosys wants to do whatever it takes to keep this under wraps - which is why I'm surprised they haven't offered Jay some 7 figure settlement to shut him up.

It's in the court system now, so it may not matter what Jay says.  Arbitration can be sealed, but criminal proceedings are a public matter.  So be patient - we will soon have plenty of information on the record. 

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Jul 13, 2011 12:36 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

He's sounding a lot like Nixon.. "I am not a crook". Minus the charisma (tongue in cheek too)

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Jul 13, 2011 12:40 PM LOL LOL  says: in response to who knows

I want to stress that I don't find "personal opinion" anything wrong or bogus. I just want to tell that people should take it that way. Some people get too much carried away here as if Don has clean channel of source for information which is very much credible. Media like Economics Times etc 'leaks' companies information all the time and they are bang on target. They tell about their re-org, annual compensation review etc all the time and 1-2 months advance when even employees/investors officially come to know. It is up to individuals to give importance to different 'reports' accordingly.

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Jul 13, 2011 12:51 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says:

My understanding is that there are indeed such guidelines for applying for B1 visas, Roy, but that's not a policy document for business travel to the U.S., which outlines exactly what work can and cannot be performed by employees on B1 visas. Two entirely different things.

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Jul 13, 2011 12:53 PM Chotadon Chotadon  says: in response to R. Lawson

"a good faith effort to hire American workers first.  They won't (and can't)." - yes you are correct and may be what you don't know they never claim so. Infosys always take credit for creating job in India. They won't ever say we take "credit for taking away american job" - that is a negative way of saying and no one does that. Even US govtmnt goes everywhere to protect their own interest but behave as such they are working for World peace whereas every one knows they don't give a damn about anyone else's problem.

If you don't believe in some of American system then the system should be blamed rather than individual company or individuals for that matter.

"So be patient - we will soon have plenty of information on the record.  " - that is exactly everyone should do. But you are not doing that Don already started calling them criminal and when their CEO rightly not commenting anything on sub juris you are making fun of that. In the process you are clearly showing you have no idea how a CEO attends a press conf and how blogger and blog readers talk in internet forum.

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Jul 14, 2011 1:22 AM American Citizen American Citizen  says: in response to SealTeam6

Hi all. Why are we even discussing issues concerning our country with foreigners? Who the heck are these Indians...to come here and dictate terms to us? The whole lot of H1Bs and L1s and B1s are frauds and should be kicked out ASAP and the Jobs rightfully go to American Citizens. Over One MILLION Americans can get jobs within a month! Only if our President Acts on this. The other option is Picketing and hold Protests outside every damn building where these fraud guys work... till they get out of our country!

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Jul 14, 2011 1:48 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to American Citizen

Let's do it!!!

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Jul 14, 2011 2:39 AM We The People We The People  says: in response to hireamerican

Wow this is unbelieveably infuriating. How DARE employers funded by WE the people offshore USA jobs!

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Jul 14, 2011 3:02 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to R. Lawson

Well said, thank you.   As a highly skilled American tech directly impacted by H-1b visa fraud and abuse, my goal is to create awareness and change the law - it's not about the individuals, it's about the unfair program that created the problem. 

Both American citizens and guest workers are adversely impacted by these laws - we are both pawns in the labor arbitrage game - it's not about how smart you are it's about lowering the cost of labor.

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Jul 14, 2011 3:06 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to SealTeam6

Great find! Thanks for sharing.

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Jul 14, 2011 3:08 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

@RangaS - send me an email.  relawson at sdsflorida dotcom.  I'm in Oldsmar and glad to invite you over for a beer or meet up at a local watering hole. 

Looking forward to it!

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Jul 14, 2011 7:14 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to American Citizen

Your comment: "Only if our President Acts on this."

No wonder why keyboard tigers just come to different blogs and forums with no clue on what is the issue and how/who can even fix a it.

Unfortunately US president has no power to change immigration programs by executive order (better you figure out who else can change immigration program). It is not your President have to act on it...it is every american citizen has to act on it by making their congress work for them rather than corporate(s).

With recent Supreme Court judgment on corporate spending on/for politics I don't think any of your elected members will shy away from corporate(s) and join you.

Best of luck!!!!

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Jul 14, 2011 7:42 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy (I don't agree on doing any fraud...just trying to see what options available if at all they have reasonable business need) I think you miss a point,

When I get business in US I have no office here or at the least established in every part of US. To get a local talent for that short a period I doubt even a college student would come forward if it is not his/her summer break and forget about reasonably experienced person. The moment you says this contract is for a month or two he/she would simply walk away. And all this selection, filtering, and payroll etc., I have to do from offshore doesn't sound great.

Your comment : "It's not really that complicated.  I get it - you want the whole pie and not interested in sharing a slice.  Sorry, but you can't always get what you want. "

Roy I don't have any business need so all I am trying to get is why those company which use B1 get into this trouble if at all there is right way to do.

Your comment: "Do you know why there are so few Americans in your corner?  Simple - very few Americans profit from your business model.  Share the pie and you'll go much farther here."

I don't think very few Americans are doing offshore business. You can take any company in fortune 500, every one has created big offshore center in Inida/China. Is it not direct participation from Americans ? I had worked 3 of those fortune 500 offshore centers in my past.

May be saying even for B1 companies has to pay US salary of minimum 50% more than what normal salary here.

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Jul 14, 2011 9:04 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"Roy I don't have any business need so all I am trying to get is why those company which use B1 get into this trouble if at all there is right way to do."

The reason they get in trouble is two-fold. First, they either don't care about our laws or they don't understand the law. Second, until recently our government didn't police companies well enough so they could get away with violating the law - and did.

Look at American farmers. This is a place near and dear to me. My grandparents own a large farm (large for private standards - many farms today are corporate owned and are much larger than this one). My grandfather tells me he only hires legals. I'm sure he means well, but I simply don't believe him. You couldn't run a farm both profitably and legally today. The entire industry has become corrupted over the years because farmers were able to hire workers illegally and the government turned a blind eye. So today their entire industry is at risk because of states passing their own immigration laws.

Now I personally support the tough laws. I believe that turning a blind eye slows down our nation and the human species. My reasons in the case of farming have nothing to do with race - and primarily to do with the advancement of mankind. Subsidizing inefficiency with exploitable humans guarantees that man will not quickly find creative ways to solve those problems. In the long run, many humans will starve and die of malnutrition because we aren't able to most efficiently harvest food. Machines can harvest all types of food - including soft berries and fruits - because we have the technology today that didn't exist even a decade ago.

Eli Whitney is a good case in point. When slavery was abolished man quickly invented ways to efficiently pick and process cotton. Human labor could not keep up with demand. 

I just began working on a robotic fruit picker and am building a prototype. It will use technology and use smarter ways to harvest fruit. This is out of necessity because it is now a felony in Georgia to present false documents to gain employment. As such, foreign agriculture workers are smartly avoiding that state.

The abolition of slavery created short term problems (nobody to harvest the crop) but in the long term it was not only the right thing to do - it also pushed our nation towards automation.

Will my grandfather's farm survive? If he is able to innovate and quickly adapt to the new landscape not only will he survive he will grow beyond imagination. If he, like many farmers will likely do, throws in the towel and doesn't live up to our American heritage of ingenuity - that farm will certainly perish. American farms have survived on subsidies and illegal labor for half a century. They don't know how to operate a business on their own two feet any more. They must learn, or see their businesses destroyed. I'm personally ashamed of the practices of American farmers. They lost their way.

I am sure you can see many analogies to the IT industry here - so I won't point them out. Our industry isn't as flagrantly corrupt as American agriculture, but corruption has become common at many of the staffing firms. We've got to root that out before it takes hold and destroys our profession.

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Jul 14, 2011 9:49 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Ironically GE, a company that has had a long history of massive outsourcing is admitting American companies went "overboard".

"General Electric Co. Chief Executive Jeff Immelt, who heads the White House jobs council, called on America's top companies to double their hiring of engineers next year.

American companies, he said, have gotten "carried away" with outsourcing jobs overseas and are going to have to account for where they create jobs. "

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303406104576444273331165368.html

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Jul 14, 2011 10:33 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy I like to know your view on your own comment and reality (may be off topic too)

Your comment : "It's not really that complicated.  I get it - you want the whole pie and not interested in sharing a slice.  Sorry, but you can't always get what you want. "

Is it not the same policy America implemented/implementing around the world.

1) All countries should use $ to buy or sell Oil, if any country thinks otherwise we will start war on them. We will keep our reserve for future use but don't stop exporting your oil.

2) Every country should print currency up to their gold holding and this is not applicable for US because we wrote that rule.

3) With 300 million population we will consume 30% of world energy production and if any developing countries usage grows it is affecting our economy so developing country should tighten their energy usage.

4) No country should step on other country...but we have every right to do that and no one should question us. If we feel any country is ruled by dictator who doesn't budge for us we will declare war on them.

5) We will ask/order every country to open their economy for corporate(s) in US.

6) We do all moral policing of whole world as long as we get something out of it.

7) None of my citizens should be punished other than they way we wanted (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay) but any immigrant land in US has to follow whatever law we impose even it is not right.

8) We will have thousands of Nuclear weapons because we are matured enough to handle it other than we tried (we are the only country tried it....) two on Japan. So, no other country should try to create one and if any other country has it now...destroy it now....otherwise we will request (say order) UN to put sanctions.

Now tell me who want the whole pie and not interested in sharing a slice. Every problem in this world is directly or indirectly contributed by greed and mostly that come from corporate(s).

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Jul 14, 2011 11:07 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

This is really veering too far off topic.  If you're ever in my area and want to grab a beer and talk politics look me up.  But I'm going to keep my politics in this forum as closely related to our industry and things impacting our profession as possible.

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Jul 14, 2011 11:55 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

I am close to your area...would be interesting to view your point on those political subject.

And I agree it is really really veering too far off topic..but I can't help when I had to think after reading your comment and wanted to see what your response could be.

I respect your decision on not commenting...will catch-up this subject when Don's topic matches.

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Jul 14, 2011 11:59 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to R. Lawson

I agree. Politics outside the realm of this subject is just obfuscation of the real issues.

Back on topic. Even the UK is rethinking offshoring:

On-shoring is the new off-shoring as call centres come back to UK

Santander's decision to transfer its Indian call centre operations to the UK in a bid to boost customer satisfaction would appear to indicate that the offshore model is "increasingly past its sell-by-date", according to experts.

www.hrzone.co.uk/topic/business-lifestyle/shoring-new-shoring-call-centres-come-back-uk/112654

I think the outsourcing party of the 1990s is well and truly over.  It has been so derailed from its original intent that there is no point retaining it.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:00 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to hireamerican

As the saying goes "money talks". If a tip reward is set up, I think we will get some interesting information from employees with access to smoking gun documents. Think Jeffrey Wigand, who blew the lid off the tobacco industry coverup of the coverup on the intentional addition of carcinogenic cigarette additives.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:02 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

So what is your point other than finding fault in my language skill?

Just because you feel your argument is right it doesn't mean my arguments are erroneous. If you don't want to respond better don't...instead of trying to prove your credibility which no one can validate.

No offense..but there is a saying..."On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog"...so claiming you had done all aspects of project doesn't add anything to your argument.

I have seen 25yrs+ experienced with zero contribution (other than great lip service...starts with I am 25yrs experienced and I can make the earth rotate in opposite direction...) to a projects and also seen interns with great contribution to projects and companies offered full time jobs.

Your number of years experience in IT industry is nothing if you are not ready to learn everyday...period. Also you cannot survive or expect  company to keep you just because you are in the industry for more than 2 decades.

As all companies says "employees are their asset" but between the line all it means is "employees are their asset as long as they earn/contribute for them" otherwise you are like one useless 1980's computer (it was useful but long time back...not anymore)  which will be get rid off.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:06 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

Thanks for not reading..because it is not for you to read.

"Tomorrow, we vote for ending greencard lottery. We are just getting started.....every fake resume will be investigated......."

Good to know even I don't like when greencard was given as lottery ticket. Let every one know your source of this information.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:10 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

L1 is the inter-company visa.  That visa cannot be used off site.  We fought that battle a few years ago.  If your company has offices here and the employee wasn't hired just for this project then this is an option.  I wouldn't count on it for too long because we are seeking prevailing wage requirements for it as well.

If you are a consulting firm, I wouldn't count on the H-1b being an option for too long.  If legislation does get passed, it will likely exclude staffing firms from the program.

This is your objective:

"Say I am running a business and got a client in US, now I want to meet my client to understand their business and do reasonable task in US before taking control of the job for develop in my offshore center."

I would say that you use the B-1 to meet the client, understand the business, and propose/sign a business deal. 

There is no "reasonable" billable task that can be performed on that visa.  You do exactly what I would do if I went on a business trip to India and the roles were reversed.  I would hire or contract and Indian worker in India to work with that client.  You should hire an American if you need work performed onsite.

It's not really that complicated.  I get it - you want the whole pie and not interested in sharing a slice.  Sorry, but you can't always get what you want. 

Do you know why there are so few Americans in your corner?  Simple - very few Americans profit from your business model.  Share the pie and you'll go much farther here.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:16 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

Language skills are important when subtle nuances that aren't spelled out clearly are implied.

And you expect your analysis of numbers from the Dept of Labor justify anything ? Cherry picking numbers to create a smokescreen is pointless.

The reality is that the guest worker as it currently stands has got to be revamped. The current visas should be allowed to expire without option for renewal. In the meantime, the Dept of Labor should come up with a new set of guidelines to tighten requirements. And the same with the Sate Dept for the granting of visas. In addition fines for visa fraud need to be far higher than they currently are.  Repeated offences by the same company should automatically ban them from business in the US.

Once some of these are implemented, people will have some faith that the system works.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:18 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy I do agree the word "Cheap" is very vague for any argument. And for getting resources for shortage we should also consider from where we are getting resource.

Classic example is "Oil", if we dig oil here it would cost $50/barrel but same Oil can be imported for $35/barrel (if there is no online trading of oil) because Arab has plenty and they can take more than what they can use. Now because of online trading oil price is fixed at international level in the share market by people with no intention of taking delivery.

So, when you get resource from India & China where they are more than ready to take US opportunity their salary gets fixed based on demand and availability at India or China not based on demand at US.

If you know person with H1 in US who change his employer 1st time you can see the salary difference (increase) they demand because they get to know the real market demand and his best market price. And most of the people who come here for initial starting salary range of $65k/yr - $75k/yr switch their employer within a year. All they wait for is right location at right salary which was big pain for any company sponsoring H1 for people in India & China because those people change job very sooner than later.

All I am saying is based on my experience and information I gather from different people because there is no valid source of data for this.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:27 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

I would be more than happy to learn new things if you provide data from your perspective instead of suggesting my data is cherry picked.

I do stand for fixing all issues related to immigration visas, and in no place I said this is best and working perfectly. And I will be more than happy to put penalty for any fraud or misuse. Also I don't think waiting for repeated offence is good option, for first offence company should lose their privilege of applying for new visas for next 3yrs. On second offence there should be permanent ban for that company and any new company started by the same person or group.

Also DOL LCA data needs to be updated every month and frequent check for work site by local police (ICE has very less resource to handle it) would be great help here. Say If a company applies H1 for position at City x,State Y then from they day the resource starts working in the location within 3 months there should be at the least 1 random visit my local police offer should be there. Cost for 1st 3 visit has to be paid by the company the time when they apply and local police department has to make sure 3 random visit is done in a span of 18months.

I am not sure if you are aware or not... no employment visa can be extended beyond 6yrs max unless the company has sponsored green card.

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Jul 14, 2011 12:48 PM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

From the Economy Policy Institute:

"THE H-1B AND L-1 VISA PROGRAMS

Out of Control

"The goals of the H-1B and L visa programs have been to bring in foreign workers who complement the U.S. workforce.

Instead, loopholes in both programs have made it too easy to bring in cheaper foreign workers, with ordinary skills, who directly substitute for, rather than complement, workers already in the country. They are clearly displacing and denying opportunities to U.S. workers. "

www.epi.org/page/-/pdf/bp280.pdf

Knock yourself out.

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Jul 16, 2011 1:23 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Enough ..

Unfortunately corporate are not there to pay for your age. And when I want $100k+/year from a company I have to contribute to some extent and company doesn't care about my age as long as I add value (earn at the least twice that of your earning per year...to cover my cost and other overhead cost) to the company.

Fortunately I am closing towards 40's and if I don't add any value to my company I will be fired.

Some may be I feel happy using different card (color, aged, race, religion etc.,) to gain something which they don't deserve.

And respect is something different and at times I have to earn it in company (not claim just by age) and get free at outside world (which has no cash benefit).

Also I don't have to be master of the universe to work in a company, all I need to master is what the company needs. My past experience can be used for my current work but no company can pay for my past work. You seem to be got confused with age and experience.

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Jul 16, 2011 4:46 AM Enough .. Enough ..  says: in response to who knows

Please, enough, entitled one, your degrading comments don't help you achieve your goal.

In the USA, we teach our children to respect our elders. 

One day you'll be 40 and discover that you are no longer master of the universe.

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Jul 16, 2011 10:31 AM Enough Enough  says: in response to who knows

It is unacceptable and inappropriate for you to make negative comments about someone you know nothing about.   Your biased feedback has no basis, is without merit, and adds nothing to the discussion.

Please respect the contributors to this forum and refrain from personal attacks.

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Jul 16, 2011 10:49 AM Just Say NO to Infosys Visa Fraud Just Say NO to Infosys Visa Fraud  says:

It appears that my previous posts on suggested actions WE the people, Americans citizens, can take to make sure our voices are heard loud an clear have disappeared. I am reposting

Just say NO to Infosys Visa Fraud

Infosys Hall of Shame  - US Companies that choose to work with Infosys

PLEASE contact your LOCAL media, and ask them to investigate why these companies chose to continue to support the illegal use of Infosys staff working IN YOUR community - in their company premises, to offshore local USA jobs to Infosys, and bypass highly skilled American tech talent in your community.

Please spread the word.   Thank you

Some Infosys USA clients

Blockbuster  Dallas TX 

Blockbuster knocked out of business with Infosys

tinyurl.com/infosysblockbuster

Blue Cross & Blue Shield Association Chicago, DC and 39 Blues across USA

America's got the Blues for Outsourced Blue Cross US Jobs to Infosys

tinyurl.com/infosysblues

Boeing-Chicago, Seattle

Crashing and burning American Careers while 787 flying high with Infosys

tinyurl.com/infosysboeing

Cummins Inc.Columbus IN

Disconnects US citizens from jobs and deprives Indiana voters USA jobs

tinyurl.com/infosyscummins

Hallmark Kansas City, MO

When you care enough to layoff Americans and outsource their jobs to Infosys. Who needs birthday cards when you can't afford to eat?  tinyurl.com/infosyshallmark

Infosys Health Benefit Exchange  (DC, 50 states)

Obama Cares About Jobs for Infosys not Americans

Infosys state insurance exchanges to serve 30 million US citizens under Affordable Care Act

tinyurl.com/infosysobamacare

Microsoft, Redmond, WA

Infosys $100 million deal to outsource more Microsoft USA jobs to Infosys

Many articles (recent samples)

tinyurl.com/infosysMicrosoft1 ;

tinyurl.com/infosysMicrosoft2 ;

tinyurl.com/infosysMicrosoft3

Moneygram, Minneapolis MN

Sends money to Infosys outsourcer anywhere in the world, but no payday loans to its laid off American workforce

preview.tinyurl.com/infosysmoneygram

Northwestern Mutual Milwaukee WI,

Secure YOUR Financial Future, only if you illegally work for Infosys in the USA on a B-1 visa

tinyurl.com/infosysnwmutual

Seattle City Light (Seattle, WA) 

Turns off lights for USA citizens by outsourcing USA jobs to Infosys

tinyurl.com/infosysSeattleCityLight

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Jul 16, 2011 11:03 AM Infosys US Healthcare Clients - say NO to Infosys visa fraud Infosys US Healthcare Clients - say NO to Infosys visa fraud  says:

Tell Infosys US Healthcare Clients to say NO to Infosys visa fraud

Do you receive health insurance through any of the following providers?

If so, please alert your local media and state insurance commissioners. Ask these organizations to investigate

1. Why do these health plans, many funded by US taxpayer dollars for state and federal program -  continue to offshore USA jobs to Infosys India? 

2. Why do these health plans knowingly allow Infosys staff without proper visas to work illegally on their company premises?

Thank you.

Obamacare ACA - Infosys Health Benefit Exchange  (DC, 50 states)

. Infosys state insurance exchanges to serve 30 million US citizens under Affordable Care Act

. tinyurl.com/infosysobamacare

Aetna Hartford CT, Blue Bell PA

. Aetna Healthcare offshores Information Technology to Infosys, India for 10 years   

. tinyurl.com/infosysaetnahc

Blue Cross & Blue Shield Association Chicago, DC and 39 Blues across USA

. America's got the Blues for Outsourced Blue Cross US Jobs to Infosys

. tinyurl.com/infosysblues

Horizon Blue Cross Newark NJ

. NJ provider of taxpayer $ medical plans offshores IT to Infosys  

. tinyurl.com/infosyshorizonblue

Mercy Health Plans  (St Louis MO, Springfield MO, Laredo TX, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas) 

.Mercy offshores information technology to Infosys India  

. tinyurl.com/infosysmercyhealth      

California Medical Plan

. Health plan provider offshores USA Medicare Medicaid projects to

.     tinyurl.com/infosysCAmedicare

US Pharmaceutical Firm

. Pharma firm offshores US Fed Government HIPAA Compliance to Infosys India  (location undisclosed)

tinyurl.com/infosyspharma

Blue Cross & Blue Shield Association Chicago, DC and 39 Blues across USA

. tinyurl.com/infosysblues

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Jul 16, 2011 11:12 AM Apologies from Just say NO to Infosys Apologies from Just say NO to Infosys  says:

Don, 

I am so sorry.  I realize I made a mistake and posted my comments on te previous INFY article ..  "Did Clients' Angst over Alleged Visa Fraud Hurt Infosys' Earnings?"

Thanks to everyone

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Jul 21, 2011 4:20 AM AVK AVK  says: in response to hireamerican

I guess you don't have the inclination to read tech books either?

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Jul 21, 2011 4:33 AM AVK AVK  says: in response to Enough

"Please, enough, entitled one, your degrading comments don't help you achieve your goal.

In the USA, we teach our children to respect our elders.

One day you'll be 40 and discover that you are no longer master of the universe."

Is it acceptable and appropriate for you to make these kind of comments? You obviously don't know anything about RangaS, do you? American have not cornered the market in teaching respect to ther children. To summarize, your feedback (which is basically a personal attack) has no basis, is without merit and adds no value to this discussion. Please refrain from personal attacks. You have basically been hoisted on your own petard.

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Jul 21, 2011 8:31 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to AVK

"I guess you don't have the inclination to read tech books either?"

So? What's your point?

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Mar 28, 2012 10:10 AM Themis Themis  says:

Infosys's leadership and employees are the most unethical people on earth. I am currently investigating how several hundred of Infosys employees with visas disappeared in the US. Furthermore, they left Infosys and most of them are working in the US. They have built a model that I will call a discriminative scheme against American IT workforce. They hired each other and they do not leave a job without finding an Indian guy to fill the opening. Where are the CIOs? , maybe busy trying to impress the CEOs.

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Mar 28, 2012 10:12 AM Themis Themis  says:

Infosys's leadership and employees are the most unethical people on earth. I am currently investigating how several hundred of Infosys employees with visas disappeared in the US. Furthermore, they left Infosys and most of them are working in the US. They have built a model that I will call a discriminative scheme against American IT workforce. They hired each other and they do not leave a job without finding an Indian guy to fill the opening. Where are the CIOs? , maybe busy trying to impress the CEOs.

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May 9, 2012 7:57 AM Deepak Deepak  says:

Business Immigration Visa assists businessmen and investors (High Net-worth Individuals/HNIs), residing in any part of the world, willing to make an investment in a foreign country and at the same time wanting to obtain residency/permanent immigration of that country.

visit businessimmigrationvisa.com/ for details

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