I Was Wrong - The H-1B Visa Program Must Be Abolished

Don Tennant

In the 10 years or so that I've been writing about the H-1B visa program, I have steadfastly argued that despite rampant abuse of the system, the positive contributions of many, many people here on H-1B visas warrant continued support of the program. I was wrong. The H-1B visa program needs to be abolished.

 

It has long been my view that our focus should be on fighting abuse of the program, rather than on fighting for its annihilation. I have been so sickened for so long by the hatefulness of anti-H-1B fanatics who have capitalized on the issue to spew anti-foreigner venom that I was compelled to find every reason I could to support what they hate. I have argued for years that the hatefulness is horribly damaging to the effort to fix the H-1B program, and I feel as strongly about that now as I ever have. But what I have come to recognize is that the H-1B program in irreparable. So I was wrong to support its continued existence.

 

It wasn't an easy conclusion to come to. I remain humbled and inspired by the examples set by many families whose outstanding accomplishments here have been made possible by the H-1B program. I remain blown away by the fact the 60 percent of the finalists in the 2011 Intel Science Talent Search competition are the children of parents who came to the United States on H-1B visas, and I see absolutely no reason to try to discredit that competition or those findings as a means of discrediting the H-1B program. I remain blown away by the stories of people like Dan Simpelo, a high school senior in New City, N.Y., whose family came here from the Philippines four years ago, and whose father had come here two years earlier on an H-1B visa. Dan, whose first language is not English, was the valedictorian of his graduating class of 390 seniors. It's very difficult for me to call for the abolition of a visa program that has made stories like that possible. But I had no choice.

 

What changed for me is that finally - finally - the voice of reason has drowned out the voice of hate. There's no better example than the string of hundreds of reader comments that were contributed in response to my recent post, "Will H-1B Visa Holders Feel the Pain of Impending Cisco Layoffs?" Yes, that reader commentary was spiked with the requisite bickering and mean-spiritedness that have marred the discussion on both sides all along. But what predominated was reasoned, compelling, substantiated information contributed by knowledgeable, thoughtful individuals whose inclination is to challenge and document abuse of the program rather than deride and lambast the individuals who hold the visas the program has created.

 

One of the most reasoned, sensible and articulate voices in opposition to the H-1B program has been that of Roy Lawson, a software developer in Florida who regularly contributes his commentary to the postings here. He made several comments in response to the aforementioned post, none more important than the one in which he conveyed this viewpoint:

I believe [the H-1B program] is flawed beyond repair, and as such it needs to be abolished in favor of something smarter. I believe that corporations should not be immigration middle-men. Immigration is about something much more pure and sacrosanct than corporate profits. I believe it needs to be abolished in favor of permanent immigration, self sponsorship as opposed to corporate sponsorship, the favoring of relatives (families) over new immigrants, and sustainable numbers. I would limit new immigration to 25% of net job gains each year. In years where we have job loss, I would restrict immigration. Finally, certainly more people would apply than we have openings for. I would make the acceptance based on merit, not first come or a lottery. My case is about economics and national interest, and has nothing to do with race. In fact, I want greater protections for immigrants. I believe the reason they are so easily exploited is because of corporate sponsorship. Green cards (in sustainable numbers) would make them equal players in the labor market. An H-1b visa amounts to second class labor and corporate sponsorship gives companies leverage against your wages and salary. This hurts you directly and it hurts us indirectly-because we now must compete against workers who are easily exploited.

While some of his points are fodder for additional legitimate debate, in essence, Roy is right. I want to express my thanks to him and to all of the other readers who have worked so diligently to make the anti-H-1B argument not only in a way that is convincing, but in a way that upholds the principles of honor, compassion, fairness and decency that our country stands for. I'm proud to join you in opposition to the H-1B program.



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Jun 8, 2011 3:32 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Dr. Gene Nelson

It won't be an improvement if we replace indiscriminate H-1B issuance (the system we have now) with indiscriminate green card issuance. We'll still have a glutted labor market. Granted, the green card now has a wimpy labor test that is easily circumvented, but that may seem better than nothing. We need to have a stringent market test. Right now, in the PERM process, if a qualified American applies, they have to stop the PERM process. But do they send the H-1B home and give the job to the qualified American who applied? Um, no. Why not?

Corporations want to bypass American workers. They are already able to do with via bodyshops and an entire underground job market where jobs located in America are advertised to foreign applicants. If an American job seeker is even able to find the posting, his application will likely be ignored, just as when a woman applied to a job posted for men back in 1959.

American workers have a legal right to be considered, and preferred, for jobs in America. But all too often, we seek and apply in vain, while foreign workers' career zoom ahead of us. Don't lets replace a corrupt H-1B system with a corrupt green card system.

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Jun 8, 2011 5:03 AM Jim Jim  says: in response to James Murphy

I see Don's response as capitulation in the face of massive evidence. Looking back at recent articles with titles such as "utterly ridiculous" and "stop whining," I'm too cynical to envision any real change in his attitude. Sorry Don.

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Jun 8, 2011 5:21 AM Justinian Justinian  says:

Several comments for the bloggers here and for the author, Don Tennant. 

1. The H-1B Visa Program has been with us for twenty years now, since 1990. In these twenty years, the technical professions have been effectively de-Americanized, as every day for twenty years hundred of Americans are dismissed from their employment and replaced by H-1B and other foreign labor. The point is this:these professions have been de-Americanized. The process is already complete. This fact can be seen from the fact that demand for H-1B Visas by Industry is declining. Since companies in this country hire foreign labor as eagerly as ever, it can only be that precious few American technical professionals are left in the industry to be fired and replaced with foreign labor. 

2. The author is "blown away" by the fact that 60% of the finalists in a prestigeous science competition are sons and daughters of H-1B laborers. These finalists, in any country and in any decade, would be sons and daughters of technical professionals. People in general follow their parent's profession far more easily than any other. Look inside any technical industry in this country, and you will likely see more than 60% of the labor being foreign born. That is what we are seeing with the finalists:an abundance of foreign labor in technical professions and evacuation of Americans from the same positions.

3. The native Americans on this blog seem to think there is a job market that might come back for them. This is not true. It is lost, forever, to Chinese and Indians who will hire more people of Chinese and Indian blood. We must not be so immersed in our own culture as to be unable to see this simple fact:only in America is the very notion of race or blood a taboo subject. People from other countries have no problem with maintaining loyalty to their own race and sanguinity. It is part of their culture. For that matter, it was once part of ours.

4. Mr.Tennant asserts at the end of his column that our opinions and efforts in this area must be made "in a way that upholds the honor, decency, fairness, and compassion that this country stands for." Mr.Tennant can rest assured on this, for all four principles are upheld by those who oppose the continued mass importation of foreign labor into this country. 

4a. It is perfectly honorable for a country to be loyal to its own citizens, granting them preference to persons from foreign countries. In fact, having a government that looks after your interests is classified as a human right under current conventional wisdom, and those who are without such a government, and who are called stateless, are considered to be lacking in this basic human right. By having a government in Washington care nothing of the employment prospects of its own people, we are reduced to de-facto statelessness, as we are bereft of any government that has our interests at heart in its decisions.

4b. It is perfectly decent for a country to reserve jobs for its own citizens. It is a fine and decorous thing to do. Not even Marie Antoinette would think to displace her own countrymen from employment as if it were nothing. If there is anything indecent in this discussion, it is how Congress treats the technical professionals in this country.

4c.  Reply

Jun 8, 2011 5:22 AM Justinian Justinian  says:
It is perfectly fair for a country to reserve its jobs for its own citizens. Virtually all foreign labor is of persons who are citizens of foreign countries. Almost none are stateless. These citizens of foreign countries have access to the job markets of the countries of their citizenship. By offering them access to the job markets of this country, Congress grants them two job markets to find a job in. Americans, however, are left with zero job markets, for the rest of the world is twenty times the population of the United States and will overwhelm any job market it is allowed to enter. Again, the only thing unfair in this picture is how the Congress treats American workers, lavishing two job markets to people in the rest of the world, and none to people in this country.

4d. It is perfectly compassionate for a country to reserve jobs for its own people. In fact, it is the various programs through which Congress floods the job markets of this country with foreign labor that are callous-- callous to Americans needing jobs and job markets, and callous to the point of cruel to those Americans who are forced by their employers to train their own foreign replacements as a condition for their severance pay. 

5. We are conceived of only in derogatory stereotypes based on scores of average high-school students in the Third International Math and Science Survey, the fountain and source of all prejudice against us, our educations, and our intelligence. India and China, wisely, do not participate in that study, and Congress thinks only wonderful things about Chinese and Indians. Policy makers do not simply think nothing of American technical professionals, but are positively prejudiced against us.

6. It is good that Mr.Tennant upholds the principles of honor, decency, fairness, and compassion. Perhaps one other should be listed:loyalty. As concerns the H-1B Visa Program and attendant issues, I have often thought I should write a book:Un-American Activities of the U.S.Congress. Actually, it would be an encyclopedia at this point. 

With Congress continually passing laws that are actively injurious to the employment prospects of the people of this country, inevitably there will be no loyalty in the other direction either. Essays have been written bringing evidence to support the assertion that states and empires come into being by mutual ties of loyalty and disintegrate when loyalty breaks down. Saudi Arabia learned that you cannot have a stable polity and have all technical positions in the country filled with foriegn labor. The rulers of Saudi Arabia saw this and launched a "Saudization" campaign promoting Saudi employment of Saudi citizens. Apparently it is too much to ask for the United States to have the same wisdom.

-- Justinian

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Jun 8, 2011 5:52 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to James Murphy

Well, I guess it depends on what position you're referring to. My position on the H-1B visa program has obviously changed. Forever unchanged will be my position that we should be equally concerned about the wellbeing of all people, regardless of their citizenship. I believe our immigration policies need to uphold our national interests, and I believe our national interests are ultimately upheld by having a global frame of mind. Does that answer your question?

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Jun 8, 2011 6:40 AM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says: in response to Justinian

Justinian, you make a powerful, political case for our cause. Congratulations.

Donna Conroy

www.brightfuturejobs.com

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Jun 8, 2011 6:56 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Justinian

Great post, Justinian. I pretty much agree with everything except that I have hope of at least some jobs coming back, because I see ways that the equation that sent them away can still be modified in the future.

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Jun 8, 2011 11:14 AM Dr. Gene Nelson Dr. Gene Nelson  says:

I agree with Don Tennant that the controversial H-1B Visa program must be abolished. Millions of experienced American citizen technical professionals have had their careers destroyed by this form of corporate welfare.

There is a small-scale immigration program that could replace the corrupt H-1B Visa program. It is called the "O Visa." The O Visa recipient must provide clear documentation that they are genuinely outstanding. Furthermore, the O Visa recipient is NOT tied to a sponsoring employer as the H-1B and similar work visas are.

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Jun 8, 2011 11:42 AM Warior Warior  says: in response to Dr. Gene Nelson

At this moment I am still not believing in what Don has said because he lost my trust to the bone. Guys ! please don't get excited too quick, some day Don comes out say this an that, next day he changes his view completely. I am not surprised at all that Don will come out a different set of retarded posts in the future which pro H-1B articles and bashing at American workers. Please don't get excited too easily with this guy. Move on guys.

To Roy Lawson, you did a wonderful job in explaining the CNN propaganda news. I am impressed.

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Jun 8, 2011 12:01 PM twins.fan twins.fan  says:

Don,

As we have seen, every aspect, every facet of this visa and the other work visas are totally consumed with fraud.  We have seen that the count of 65,000 is fraudulent, the true number of work visas granted to workers destroying the livelihood of US STEM workers numbers greater than 500,000 each year, and this campaign has existed for over a decade.

We should consider that your presence here is also a fraud, that your role as a blogger/journalist is too a fraud.  Would you please let us know if you are paid to post comments designed to push the H1B visa and issue broad insults at the workers whose jobs are being destroyed.  Are you paid by the likes of Intel or Microsoft or Bill Gates or some other party that benefits by the destruction of the careers of US STEM workers?

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Jun 8, 2011 12:45 PM James Murphy James Murphy  says:

Don, is this a meaningful change in your position?

The problem with the H-1B is that it takes jobs away from qualified and available US citizens.  If the H-1B is abolished but replaced with another means of giving American jobs to foreigners with, for example, automatic green cards for foreign students graduating from U.S. universities then you are only making the problem worse

Sorry for being so skeptical but I got into this fight when people like you insisted that the H-1B was only being used because there was a shortage.  I was unemployed at the time. In 1999 an editor at Computerworld was skeptical of industry lobbyists crying tech labor shortage, as his wife couldn't get a job as a teacher while the Boston-area papers were claiming a shortage of teachers.

So, is this a meaningful change in your position or is this the left hand taking away what the right hand gives?

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Jun 9, 2011 4:48 AM James Murphy James Murphy  says: in response to Don Tennant

Yes Don it does answer my question.  I interpret that to mean you are still on the side of cheap foreign labor.  You just want to call it something other than H-1B.

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Jun 9, 2011 5:06 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Justinian

If an independant were to run for office on a single agenda of jobs for Americans, would you vote for that candidate?

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Jun 9, 2011 7:09 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to James Murphy

When I wrote that it would be wrong for Cisco to lay off U.S. workers ahead of H-1B workers strictly on the basis of cost considerations, did you interpret that to mean that I'm on "the side of cheap foreign labor" too?

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Jun 9, 2011 9:36 AM Andrew Andrew  says:

I'm an IT pro and cannot stand working with the foreign "consultants".  While they are skilled in certain areas, they do not work well in teams and need constant supervision.  Not to mention their body odor can be a problem in tight office spaces, they are very difficult to communicate with and makes projects that much harder to complete.

There are plenty of skilled American workers available, but companies are greedy and don't want to pay for them - plain and simple.  Which ironically many companies are finding they're costing more than they save because of said issues.

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Jun 10, 2011 4:56 AM Truthseeker Truthseeker  says: in response to Andrew

to a US citizen they pay 70$ per hour. The hiring manager has no advantage. The employee has rights of a permanent employee. They have to pay Overtime for extra work. They can not be removed without any proper reasons. For an H1b they will pay 100$ to their preferred vendor. The vendor will have another contract with an agency. Ultimately the H1b gets 30-35$ remaining money goes in chain. all this is set to give personal profits to hiring authorities in companies.

H1B is vulnerable so they can not charge for OT. They can be removed any moment as per comfort. They are kept away from confidential facts so a handful permanent employees have all the confidential info about company and so no one can challenge their position.

H1B holders pay as much % tax  on their 30 $/hour income as same skilled worked who is a citizen pays for 70$/hour

H1B has minimum law protection. People, (who themselves have been immigrants at sometime) are against H1B but not the  unethical hiring process or injustice  !!! No one wants to look in to the matter deeply to check if actually an H1B has something to offer to this country which citizens do not have or not.

Hats off !! may God save this country.

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Jun 11, 2011 10:49 AM RealTruth RealTruth  says: in response to Truthseeker

Well said @Truthseeker , that is the game being played. Most people commenting on this blog do not have an insight into that fact . The problem will be fixed when it starts with the corporations, and other US citizens who man the key positions on those companies come to realize that they need to do something for the fellow citizens rather than bumping up the profits on their balance sheet. Folks on this blog cannot pretty much do anything, may be they can make their friends in those large corporations realize that they need to do something about them.

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Jun 13, 2011 2:35 AM Justinian Justinian  says: in response to hireamerican

Hireamerican asked me, "If an independent were to run for office on a single agenda of jobs for Americans, would you vote for that candidate?"

The short answer is "yes," but the long answer (and you notice I give long answers) gives these reasons.

A person's job, at least for a guy, is everything to him.  If a man loses his job and cannot find another, not only is his income reduced to zero, but his self-esteem is as well, together with the esteem in which he is held by the rest of society.  He is zeroed out on all fronts.  Thus, it is perfectly appropriate to treat politics as if jobs were the only issue, because for each person, that person's job is his whole world.

John Stuart Mill said it more elegantly: You had might as well take away a man's life as deprive him of his means of earning bread.

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Jun 13, 2011 5:40 AM Tom Tom  says:

Don you make good points, but as you can very well see by some of the comments here, anti-immigrants will seize upon such blog titles to spread hate. The value of high skilled immigration is very much lost.

Some commentators like Dolores and HireAmerican go around various blogs/forums/websites and just spread irrational fear and hatred. Its pathetic.

The H1B program has been around for a while. It has been scrutinized over and over and there have been many recent changes to curb fraudulent use by Indian outscourcing companies. I think we need to wait and see how this pans out rather than just abolish something that's been around and start something new that will also be susceptible to fraud.

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Jun 13, 2011 6:58 AM who knows who knows  says:

I see most of the people assume that abolishing and creating new program will be best option which is putting too much trust on politicians again that is behind all this mess.

Some myth to be corrected,

1) Employees in H1B's are abused is kind of old argument, they are free to change employer with providing agreed/reasonable notice period.

2) Because they can change employer at will, the argument of cheap labor is not valid, if they have talent to get a new job with higher salary they can.

3) People stuck in GC queue and get abused is applicable only those who have no back bone to face new job interview others do change employer and continue their GC with new employer.

4) Jobs American's can do and willing to do is given to H1b people was pointless, as there is no benefit in recruiting H1B's with lot of cost in getting them (refer list below),

   a) Initial process Attorney fee (minimum $1000 to $3000)

   b) Getting labor certificate costs including preparing ( $500 - $1000)

   c) H1 Visa fee $1500 (if company has 25+employees otherwise $750), this fee is used for Training US workers called as ACWIA (Training) Fee.

   d) $500 Fraud prevention (excluded if it is renewal with same employer)

   e) Getting dependent visa includes preparing documents, visa fee, attorney fee ($500 - $1000 per family member)

   f) $1225 Optional fee for speeding up the process (if you want to get their approval in 2 weeks)

   g) All these fees don't hold for more than 3years as any approval is only valid for maximum 3 years.After three years again they need to spend close the initial amount (except Fraud prevention).

   h) If the employer filed GC for the resource then this saga continues till the resource gets GC.

with all the fee range from $3500 to $6500 excluding the options fee.These are direct cost to recruit one H1B resource and there are several indirect costs involved few listed below,

  a) You have to maintain your company record super clean and have good +ve earnings.

  b) Because the job is at will company is at risk of losing several thousand if the resource decides to quit in short span

  c) If the application gets into random audit they need to spend from $1000 - $2500 depends on complex of the audit.

  d) Newly added on-site audit comes with its own cost of sitting (1 or 2 people) with the federal agent for a day or two or number of times they visit to complete the audit.

5) With all the odds mentioned above very few companies now a days offering job for H1b's and by any chance you lost job that person has maximum 2 weeks (there no hard rule so it is based on how it was interpreted by an officer) to get out of country without getting banned for future, if he wish to get back to US in future (if at all he gets a company who wish to sponsor h1).

6) No company can pay wages below the market and market value for each position is defined by Labor department for every state, city and kind of position.Now they cannot get approval for place where cheap salary and send them to costly area as there are random location visit is done my labor department.

7) H1b resource has to get out of US after completing 6yr (3 + 3 ) stay, if the company is not sponsoring GC, to file GC there again several thousand dollars need to be spent.

8) GC doesn't come as soon as you apply there are so many things before even  Reply

Jun 13, 2011 6:58 AM who knows who knows  says:
a company can file for GC.

   a) As per law maximum allowed GC per year is 140,000.

   b) 140,000 comes with per country limit and it comes down to 2880 visas per category per country.

   c) That 2800 is not the count of just h1b resource, it also counts each and every family members.

   d) As of today it will take 7 - 20 years to get a GC based on which category the company filed GC for the resource.

To recruit a US citizen none of the above restriction is in place, just think if you are a company CEO or HR do you think getting few H1 resource which comes with all kind of trouble and expense is wise?

Have more to share...but this is enough for now...have a great evening.

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Jun 13, 2011 7:38 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

OK, I've got to correct this obvious attempt to mislead people:

"1) Employees in H1B's are abused is kind of old argument, they are free to change employer with providing agreed/reasonable notice period."

That simply is not true.  If a worker loses their job, they have 30 days to get their affairs in order; they either need to find a new sponsor or they most leave. 

In a tight job market, you are far less likely to "make waves" and ask for better pay or benefits if you are afraid of not only losing your job, but also of being forced to leave the country.

You have grossly understated the impact of the H-1b program on workers.  You obviously know your way around the H-1b visa so your comment isn't one of ignorance.  That makes your post especially egregious because you know you are misleading people.  Shame on you - anonymous person willing to step all over the truth.

Ladies and gentlemen - we have a snake in our midst.  With all of that typing, you failed to explain why corporations should be immigration middle-men.  Lot's of digital ink, no substance. 

This folks is a perfect example as to how lobbyists mislead politicians.  Mix enough truth with just enough fiction and you can sound quite convincing.

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Jun 13, 2011 7:45 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

More misinformation:

"6) No company can pay wages below the market and market value for each position is defined by Labor department for every state, city and kind of position. Now they cannot get approval for place where cheap salary and send them to costly area as there are random location visit is done my labor department."

Prevailing wage as defined by the DOL is far less than market wage.  Your comments completely ignore the dirty truths and appear more like talking points from the AILA.

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Jun 13, 2011 8:42 AM Nickname Nickname  says:

It is indeed a sad day to see this article and these comments.It just goes to show the short sightedness of many who are not aware of how things work.

I always thought of America as a land of free where, though race plays a part, people are not extremely xenophobic as many other countries are.

After reading many of these comments, i can only hope that these comments do not represent the views of majority of americans and are from a small narrow minded group.

The problem with many of these comments is that thy are based on 2 basic premises:

1.All corporations are evil and are always greedy.

2.H1B workers are only brought in only as a low wage replacement.

Both of these are fundamentally wrong.Try running a business, a tech one at that and then come back and post your views here.

Yes, companies exist to make a profit, but many times that is not the only reason why they hire workers on H1B.It is not easy finding the right people many times.

What many fail to realize is that the world is truly global now and every company needs to compete globally.

There is no way a company can just hire anyone and keep training them.In order to stay in business, they need to reduce the time-to-market any product, which means there is actually no time to train people when the technology itself is changing everyday.

Given these needs, it only makes business sense to hire the best talent that they can afford with the skills that are needed, regardless of where they are from.This is one of the reasons that US is still ahead of the tech curve.

Many people commenting here think that it is a cakewalk to get an H1B approval.This is far from the truth.If you actually go through the process you will understand that this is not the case.The hassles and the expense of hiring H1B workers is so high that companies will prefer to hire a local talent if they are available.

Now I am not saying there is no abuse in the system.Definitely there are abuses that need to be addressed.But this does not mean that everyone in the visa is abusing the system.

The other thing that H1B workers are being paid low wages is once again flawed.By law, H1B workers need to be paid the prevailing wages for job in the geographic area where they are employed.This means that no H1B worker can be paid less than this wage that is determined by the US Govt.This is based on data collection done from the companies by the US DOL.

Also, if you see the recent GAO report on the H1B visas, you will see that there is definitely a level of fraud and abuse present in the system.I totally agree that these should be addressed.What many fail to notice is that the GAO also compared the salaries of H1B workers to their citizen counterparts split by age group.They found that given the age groups, the H1B workers made equal to and in many age groups more than their citizen counterparts in the same age group.

This is often lost in the rhetoric that comes in from anti-immigrant xenophobes.

This century is one that will based on knowledge and any country that has the knowledge worker will stay ahead of the curve.

There are many people without jobs now, which is fueling the debate nowadays towards restriction.

What many fail to realize is that if you close America to other countries, then others will reciprocate. Reply

Jun 13, 2011 8:42 AM Nickname Nickname  says:
One of the reasons for the severity of great depression was exactly this in the form of smoot-Smoot€“Hawley act.

I can see the effects of globalization in action now in US.I saw it once in India when the country was opened up.Many local companies went out of business and could not compete on a global scale.It helped america at that time as they had the advantage.Many in india lost their jobs.There was a huge outcry.

But India has been better because of globalization.The initial impact forced the workforce to move forward.I am sure the same will happen in US also.

One final word, the days of having 5 offers and having the luxury to choose from them are long gone.Today you have to compete with everyone globally.This applies to both workers and the companies.

If you are laid off, upgrade your skills and compete.You will land a job again.That is the reality.

If you close down the measly 65000 workers coming in per year on H1B, it will do immense harm to this country than any other policy.

I know there are a lot of people here who support closing the visa and sending everyone on this visa back 'home'.The idea is that the jobs will be abundant here once that is done.

Understand the reality, if the workers go, the jobs go with them.If they close down the access to US markets, every other country will reciprocate and we will be in a deeper recession.

There is one thing that a US citizen has that is not available to the H1B worker.That is, the citizen can do what they want in terms of jobs.Try starting your own company and employ others.This will help you, your family and those around you.

There are thousands of immigrants on H1B who would love that option.I am one of them.I would love to start up my company in US and employ US workers as I consider this my 'home'.I have spent much of my productive years in US and would love to contribute back, if given a chance.

There are many others in the same situation.Hope you see the benefits of the program.

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Jun 13, 2011 10:05 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Nickname

There is actually a lively job market right here in America - tens of thousands of tech and other white collar jobs being posted and filled right here in this country. The catch? Americans need not apply.

The jobs are posted specifically to recruit foreign candidates to work here. They are posted in places targeted to foreign readers, often by foreign bodyshops, and sometimes even hidden so that they can't be viewed from American IP addresses.

What happens if an American sees the job and applies anyway? The same thing that happened back in the 50s and earlier when a woman applied for a "man's" job or a minority applied for a high-paying white collar job.

This is pure old-school discrimination. American companies should consider American candidates for these jobs. Instead, we have massive unemployment, underemployment, and discrimination against the (American) unemployed, while jobs we could do and would love to have are shunted away from us.

Let's stop putting American workers out by the curb on trash day. We could have a prosperous nation again, without adding to the deficit, if we would just focus on getting Americans back into these jobs.

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Jun 13, 2011 10:16 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Can we assume other than Prevailing wage rest of my points are acceptable for you ? I have something to share about DOL data.

Before we get into more details, we should be remember that there is reporting process DOL put in place on PW related issues. Also, DOL is part of Federal govt and it is Federal govt responsibility to update and fix any issues in the PW and they welcome any public contribution towards fixing.

Based on DOL data I could find lowest PW in IT field is $22880 in state OK and if at all we consider this salary is given as for full time position it boils down to $11/hr which is $2 higher than starting salary from walmart and I doubt anyone works for this salary unless this position is part-time.

Also we should remember PW is not what always get paid, most of the cases it is always above PW.

Below is my analysis on DOL data for year 2008 and 2009.

1) Total records I could see (excluding per hr based salary and part time and jobs related to IT only) 100k+

2) Salary range below 50k is 10600+

3) Salary range between 50k to  <75k is 56800+

4) Salary range 75K+ is 25100+

Every data is on public view, all it takes is review it and if find flaw report it so that DOL will take required action.

With the data above I can say less than 10% people may be (because for some location cost of living is really low which reduces the wage) which is not major contributor for any one to claim H1b is reducing the wage in the market.

We can very well say DOL PW is just a guideline and the market which defines the salary based on availability of resource.

With no restriction in changing employer there is no reason for anyone to work for low wage. So, it is not talking point from the AILA here I had provided some data in the field I work and available for everyone to access it at flcdatacenter.com

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Jun 13, 2011 10:26 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Nickname

"The problem with many of these comments is that thy are based on 2 basic premises:

1. All corporations are evil and are always greedy."

Corporations exist to make a profit.  That is their objective. 

For the sake of argument, let's pretend for a moment that every corporation's reason for existence is benevolent and their goals are for some objective the entire world considers to be righteous.  Assume that corporations are here to do all that is good.

Even if that were the case, why should corporations have a special right to serve as middle-man between an immigrant and their ability to live and work in this country?  Wouldn't that be inherently bad and as such tarnish all those wonderful altruistic things corporations are here to do?

Does a corporation represent some special class of citizen - a "super citizen" - with not only rights of person-hood but additional rights to serve as gatekeeper to this nation?  Why is a corporation such a special entity that it deserves these powers?

Let's start there.  I don't think you can defeat this argument unless you can persuade people that we should have a second tier class of workers with limited rights in the labor market, and that corporations should control these rights.

Let's go to a more granular level than that.  Why would even a citizen be given rights to "sponsor" a person for immigration?  If the immigrant breaks something in a store is their sponsor liable for damages?  If the immigrant commits a crime will their sponsor also be complicit?  Of course not, and as such there is no legitimate need for a sponsor of any kind. 

The whole concept really does boggle the mind because the only reason someone or some entity would want to be a sponsor is if they wanted to CONTROL an immigrant.  It really is about one party having leverage over another.  Leverage in any business relationship equals money with advantage going to the person having the most leverage.

Why again should corporations be able to sponsor immigrants?  No more red-herring responses and diversions.  This is a simple question deserving a simple answer.

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Jun 13, 2011 10:31 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Can you point us out from where you have gotten that "30 days to get their affair in order" ?

When your H1b is approved for a wage defined as per your application there is no way any corporate reduce your salary without resubmitting H1 which will be additional expense.

I have provided all data where as you have provided only argument, just in case you want valid data to analyse and get back to us please read my response for your 1st comment and spend some time at flcdatacenter.com (which is authentic information provided by DOL) which won't mislead anyone.

It seems you got scared of truth and after spending some time in DOL data you will start providing information I shared here.

As per your comments one thing is very obvious,

You are no way affected by any H1b resource directly (otherwise you would have came with those data)

You are in no position to hire or fire anyone (who in general understand what it takes to hire a H1B resource).All it cost to fire a H1 resource is provide return ticket for the resource only and maximum it would cost $1000.

You are in no position to of even working on preparing documentation for H1B filing(otherwise you know how extensive and time consuming it is).

All you shared is just scare tactics with no additional useful information or solution.

And your question of where corporate acts as middle-man is the only question which is reasonable which no one likes it.Different country took different route to get immigrants.

For example, Canada took a route of individual apply for PR with a proof of job available for him/her in Canada which has its own flaw.Any company can provide offer letter with no obligation to fulfill the offer.And any one can start a company and start sending offer letter(s) and it is Visa officer's head ache to find the legitimate immigrant(s).Once a immigrants got into Canada it was government who have to take responsibility of the immigrant (till he gets out of the country).

Where as US decided handover the responsibility on the hands of employer route because ultimately it is the employer responsibility to provide job and salary from day 1 any immigrant land in US.Someone has to take responsibility of tracking the resource who them here.The moment an H1 gets fired it is employer's responsibility to provide the resource return ticket and update all government agencies about the action.With this approach government has reduced responsibility which could be selling point (I am not part of that sale/deal) when congress create this program.

Also your argument of corporate controls the resource is kind of childish as there is no legal binding between the employer and employee other than basic notice period which is applicable for any citizen for that matter.

And even when a company sponsor GC for any resource there is no legal binding on the resource to continue work with the employer.If you want the GC process to continue stay with the employer that too only certain period of time (180 days from the day I140 gets filed) after that the resource can continue the GC process with any employer or just change the employer and start a new GC process from the beginning and get back to the queue (losing the priority date which used by USCIS to give GC).This "no binding contract" is what prevent any corporate to file GC (which is like risking few thousand dollars of no assured return).

Besides that in my exposure (very little) on US politics it is the corporate which plays major role in any election. Reply

Jun 13, 2011 10:31 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
As you are aware major contribution for election fund is from corporate which is why they always get major benefit from anything comes out of congress.

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Jun 13, 2011 10:34 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Nickname

"There is no way a company can just hire anyone and keep training"

I just say companies should hire American citizens and send them to India and get them trained.....In India, it costs less than $100 for Java training, and less than $200 for SAP training....I mean..that is exactly H1bs do before getting the visas :P

And you know what?  I would love to advertise this on national television....and let's see how the rest of America feels about the $4000 degrees and the illegal training :P

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Jun 13, 2011 10:43 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"2) Salary range below 50k is 10600+

3) Salary range between 50k to  <75k is 56800+

4) Salary range 75K+ is 25100+"

I've spent many months analyzing this data, and there have been many studies conducted by many different people.  There has never been a study indicating that the average worker on the H-1b visa is earning more than their American counterparts.

Even the numbers you quoted indicate that roughly 75% of LCAs filed are for less than $75K.  If the visa were truly about the best talent it would be just the opposite with far more six figure salaries.

If you narrow your search to Indian consulting firms it is just shameful what they are paying. 

You won't find a supportive argument of your position in the LCA data.  My suggestion would be to focus on quotes from CEOs and economists because whenever the numbers don't support your position you can always turn to the volumes of PR released by the AILA, ITAA, or NFAP (the one man wonder think tank) and various CEOs that people worship.  The IT industry gave up long ago on arguing the facts because they can't win on that.  Their strategy is primarily distortion of the truth and manipulation of the media.  It's worked really well for them. 

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Jun 13, 2011 10:52 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"Can you point us out from where you have gotten that "30 days to get their affair in order" ?"

I was incorrect on that point.  You have 10 days, not 30 days.  That 10 day period gives you time to file for a tourist visa (among a few others), which gives you enough time to get your affairs in order.

Technically, the moment you are fired or leave your job your H-1b is no longer in force.  Once you leave your job you are in a race to find another sponsor.

We see people unemployed so long their unemployment benefits expire before they find another job.  Good luck getting a job in 10 days.  There really is just one way - lowball your salary requirements and engage in an even faster race to the bottom.  That, or be really damn good at what you do.

"It seems you got scared of truth and after spending some time in DOL data you will start providing information I shared here."

I've written software to analyze LCA data and written very extensive reports on the matter.  I know it very well.  You aren't going to win this part of the debate my friend.  Sorry, you aren't talking with someone who just looked up H-1b in the dictionary two weeks ago.

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Jun 13, 2011 11:17 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

How about sharing your analysis on LCA data so that every one gets enlightened ?

I am not here to win anyone, all I am doing is provide some information from my perspective.

From your comment : "There really is just one way - lowball your salary requirements and engage in an even faster race to the bottom.  That, or be really damn good at what you do."

This argument seems to be illogical after I had provided data from DOL and hope you can verify the data using your "Software to analyze LCA data". Just put yourself in a HR shoes, you have a position and got 100s of resume (and no resume would speak about salary) and you have to short list to 10 for your guys to interview. In the tech interview no one will ask about salary (unless HR wants to start from salary which is very rare case) and after you clear a tech interview you will get back to HR on salary part. They way you put is like every one send their resume with salary and HR filters resume based on salary (that won't work even for $9/hr job in Walmart).

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Jun 13, 2011 11:39 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

So far you haven't provide any data for others to understand.

I don't think any american who is willing to work and have experience and knowledge would say no to $60k+ salary which is 90% cases company spends (salary + H1 cost) on H1 resource and $85k+ salary on 25%+ cases.

You are just seeing the salary paid to the H1 and neglecting the baggage of extra expenses and efforts takes to get H1.

If a corporate gets two resources one who needs H1 sponsor and another person is citizen they would very much go for citizen even if they need to pay $10k more for him. Simple reason is it takes 1-2 weeks to prepare and submit labor approval with uncertainty of so many things

   1) Labor filing falls into audit and chances of denied(then all the time and money spent is for nothing).

   2) Time and money spend on H1 process.

   3) If the position is critical they need to spend $1225 for premium processing.

   4) Time and money need to spend for dependents visa.

   5) Of all the above time, money and efforts, H1 resource can simply say "I got better offer and not willing to join" at the very last moment.

In general it doesn't make any business sense to take huge risk for chance to saving few hundred dollars that to provided that resource stays with your for whole one year.

Your perspective is only employee point of view (which can see only salary), but to understand the cost for a business you need to see from employer perspective too. If I am a employer in the above scenario I would pay $10k extra and get a citizen who can join me next day with no hassle of handling government process.

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Jun 13, 2011 11:46 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"This argument seems to be illogical after I had provided data from DOL and hope you can verify the data using your "Software to analyze LCA data"."

Here is a very good study on the matter - unlike mine it was peer reviewed: www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html. ; The title should be a good hint as to the findings:

The Bottom of the Pay Scale

Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers

Also check out Norm Matloff's work on the subject.  Google is your friend.

My main body of work is linked on my blog, however the server the files were stored on is now down so I need to find my local backup and post them elsewhere. 

Some of my earlier findings can be found here: www.programmersguild.org/docs/bush_lies_about_labor_shortage.html and here www.programmersguild.org/listmessages/2006Dec_eNewsletter.htm

"Just put yourself in a HR shoes, you have a position and got 100s of resume (and no resume would speak about salary) and you have to short list to 10 for your guys to interview. . .. "

If you are HR and you have 100s of resumes, some shortage!  I digress.  This is not what the typical process looks like these days.  Throw in a middle-man (body shop) and yes they know exactly what to look for.  It's called profiling.  If they want to do a bang up job, they can call this lawyer: www.youtube.com/user/programmersguild?blend=11&;ob=5

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Jun 13, 2011 12:38 PM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Truthseeker

"People, (who themselves have been immigrants at sometime)"

Except for the 84% of the current US population who were born here and were never immigrants.

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Jun 14, 2011 7:16 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

Every now and then we see claims by H-1Bs and their supporters that they are paid very well or better than Americans. While a few H-1Bs are indeed well compensated, the majority are not highly paid.

These claims are advanced for one reason only: to argue that the H-1Bs are overall better than the Americans they are competing with and that they therefore have a better claim to our jobs. We have already seen that mentality here and elsewhere in other posts, where H-1Bs claim that our ancestors were random riff-raff and that they have more right to come to America and live here than we do because they are better. Enough!

Taking this mentality to its logical conclusion leads to one insight - that we are under soft invasion by a nation with a gigantic population and we had better open our eyes and deal with this reality. India has around 1.2 billion people in a landmass about 1/3 the size of the US and is a public health and sanitation disaster. We (and other countries) have allowed our compassion to be used against us, and are being seized upon as a safety valve by many Indians including upper caste Indians fleeing their reservation (affirmative action) program.

We need to engage in level-headed thought and discussion about whether this is good for America and what India should be doing instead to solve its own problems.

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Jun 14, 2011 8:11 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

I didn't claim anything rather I had pointed out with valid data provided by govt agencies. And in no place I had gone into ancestors so please reply to my comment when you decided to respond to my post/reply.

All I was trying to say is there nothing called cheap labor and don't just go by wage numbers alone. We should consider all cost and trouble associated in maintaining H1 resource.

None of your comment offered any valuable input or suggestion to the core issue. Instead you keep arguing for hypothetical scenario's or general assumption with zero data to refer/validate.

Your comment :

"These claims are advanced for one reason only: to argue that the H-1Bs are overall better than the Americans they are competing with and that they therefore have a better claim to our jobs. "

I would like to tell you one thing, no person out of US can claim a US job and land next day in the office. It takes minimum 6 months - 1year from start a process to join in a company. When a job position is available for this many months why non of the citizens approached.

People argue H1 resource are not having any special skills in the very next moment same person argue they work for cheap labor. If the labor is cheap then the job is not for special skilled person. If the person is hold any special skill then the labor is not cheap, we should understand that special skill and cheap labor cannot co-exist. If the job is not require a special skill then no citizen should expect great salary so do any H1 resource.

We should always keep in mind that direct comparison of  "citizen salary" = "H1b resource salary" is not the correct. For a corporate it is always "Citizen salary"="H1 resource salary + additional cost associated with H1". If a H1 resource is paid $65K then for the same position "us citizen" should expect at least $75k.

And I don't want to engage in discussion about India here as it add no value to the topic lets keep the discussion only about H1b program.

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Jun 14, 2011 8:38 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

I disagree that it adds no value to the discussion. I think it explains a lot.

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Jun 14, 2011 10:35 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

We have regular jobs and I personally don't have time to complete an LCA study every year.  The data is there for everyone to look at, but at the end of the day the LCA data isn't crucial to my main argument.  That said, there is nothing in the data that causes me to believe there have been major changes in H-1b average pay. 

If you want to volunteer your time for that task I can point you in the right direction and help you avoid common pitfalls with the data (it isn't 100% reliable - bad data on both the high and low ends).  If you simply take the data at face value and don't manipulate findings to suit your agenda (which I was adamant about) it doesn't matter who does the work because the results should be the same.  It's math. 

When I did my research I looked at unemployment in relationship to H-1b visas approved and detailed how at the same time unemployment was rising, so were H-1b approvals.  It added insult to injury in an already troubled workforce (during the first recession in the 2000s).

Now, back to my core argument: Immigrants should not be sponsored by corporations or any other entity.  They should not be placed in a position that creates a second class or labor.  Do you agree with that statement?

I believe that immigration programs should only be permanent (green cards), with the exception of student and tourist visas and perhaps a handful of executive visas (the L-1, but how it was intended to be used and not how it is used).  Do you agree with that?

I believe that immigration numbers should be sustainable.  A simple solution I came up with was 25% of net jobs created the previous year.  In years of high job growth we will have higher levels of immigration.  In years of decline we won't accept new immigrants (Except IMMEDIATE family members of current immigrants).  Do you agree with that at least in principal? 

I believe that we should show favor to immigrants from our allied nations.  If someone from the UK or Canada (who sends soldiers to fight next to ours in Iraq) wants to immigrant they should be favored over say people from Switzerland who have remained neutral.  Do you agree with that?

I believe we should show favor to those with the highest education and the most experience.  I oppose a lottery system.  Do you agree with that?

I believe we should favor families of current immigrants over new immigrants, because I believe a strong family is an important part of being successful in America.  Do you agree with that?

In summary, I have describe who we should permit, under what circumstances, and in what numbers.  Obviously we can't allow everyone who wants to immigrate here come because people would flee third world nations in droves and our system couldn't support that.  But, we are still a nation of immigrants and we should support some sustainable number. 

So to summarize.  Who: Allied nations, families, most educated and experienced.  What conditions: Green card (no second class society - ie corporate sponsorship)  How many: 25% of net job creation last fiscal year.  Can you agree with that?

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Jun 14, 2011 10:37 AM Bob Bob  says:

Well Don, even though I strongly disagreed with a number of your articles, I couldn't dismiss you as a shill, because I thought you were too personally philisophically involved in it, rather than just being cynical (as shills are)

Welcome to this side of the arguement!!!

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Jun 14, 2011 10:39 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Bob

"Welcome to this side of the arguement!!!"

make that

Welcome to this side of the debate!!!

better choice of words

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Jun 14, 2011 10:44 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"Those are the days when companies enjoyed H1B for low cost(when a DBA charged $150/hr - $200/hr now any DB it is easy to manage with minimal effort from DBA so the rates came down to normal level) and H1B program got tweaked many times by now to close known loop holes and it is getting tweaked for any new holes identified."

Sorry, but rates didn't come down because the DB became easier to manage.  There have been very few core changes in DB technology since 2000.  The biggest change is perhaps virtualization and more advanced management tools but it hasn't become drastically easier to manage.

The reason rates came down is simple: labor arbitrage and basic supply/demand.  Foreign workers and new college grads increased the supply while a weak economy reduced the demand.  Because 401ks vanished overnight, people who would normally retire aren't - so attrition to retirement is also impacting the supply.

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Jun 14, 2011 12:12 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Bob

Thanks, I appreciate your fairness and your kindness in expressing the sentiment.

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Jun 14, 2011 12:33 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

To me all your links and data are at least 6+ years old and if your a analyst (as you said developed software to analyze LCA data) you know that any data older than 2 - 3yrs is history and those can be used for projection purpose only and they cannot be used to claim as current  issue/trend.

Those are the days when companies enjoyed H1B for low cost(when a DBA charged $150/hr - $200/hr now any DB it is easy to manage with minimal effort from DBA so the rates came down to normal level) and H1B program got tweaked many times by now to close known loop holes and it is getting tweaked for any new holes identified.

As of today, H1 resource cannot do consulting job "with employer having hire and fire authority" which means employer has to demonstrate the project their resource working is of their client and has power to hire and fire the resource. Try convincing officers at POE with vague documentation, for sure the person will be denied entry.

H1 data is no more hidden for any one, every year flcdatacenter gets updated and you can see what your company pays for other H1 resources.

To confirm all this H1 is market driven 2008 H1 filing got over in a week where as 2009, 2010 and 2011 was not got filled as it was on 2008.

Everyone would like to know your findings with latest data (not sure why there is no progress or analysis reports came after 2005) from your "Software to analyze LCA" so that everyone gets more understanding on H1B issue. For sure you would find major trend changes with new data.

Also, most of the outsourcing companies who had filed H1 for lowest wage are done, only for backup/future usage purpose when there was huge demand for h1 (which use to get over in a week) and most of the cases they never got the resources into US (which means just wasted those h1 numbers).

With additional $2000 (will be used for border protection) prevent those companies from filing h1b for backup.

My response is for H1 but your video link is for GC process and not for H1b. For H1b corporate's don't have to prove those criteria which is needed for GC. Recruiting an H1 resource is a costly and time consuming affair than getting a citizen that is what I was trying to say.

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Jun 15, 2011 1:32 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Don Tennant

you're welcome Don, and again, welcome to this side of the issue

One thing that gets me in the nastier exchanges in the message threads between citizens and guest workers, is that almost like 'Godwins Law', every sin our country has ever committed, and the economic inequality of the world gets thrown in our faces, even the British treatment of India (not quite sure why I'm responsible for that)

I could even buy into some of it, if the reparation for these sins and world economic injustices was spread a little more evenly among citizens

But a visit with my cousins not long ago, reminded me how much it's not.

I studied/worked as hard as they did, and for a very brief period, was doing as well.  But today, we live in totally different worlds.  Among them, a smattering of medical fields, top corporate management, marrying well and inheriting well.  The reason for our being in different worlds today is quite simple.  My economic situation was taken out and shot, their's wasn't. 

Why am I (and other American tech workers) singularly responsible for all of these issues, when they (non tech relatives) clearly aren't?

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Jun 15, 2011 1:44 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Bob

and even more extreme example (which I'm not on the wrong/receiving end of) is how unevenly the sacrifice for the wars of this decade have been shouldered, in terms of service, support and finance

some people burying a loved one, or having a family member (or self) damaged for life, for others (myself included) an image on the screen while flipping channels

i'm just not wanting to be a hypocrite, and acknowledging that there are  areas of uneven sacrifice that get even worse - I dont think it would be fair to those with family who have served in the last decade to not mention it

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Jun 16, 2011 8:44 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says:

Looks like this guy thought he was still living in India :P

www.wtae.com/news/28254633/detail.html

Lemme take a wild guess...he is either an H1B or got in via chain migration.

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Jun 17, 2011 4:58 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Your comment:"We have regular jobs and I personally don't have time to complete an LCA study every year. The data is there for everyone to look at, but at the end of the day the LCA data isn't crucial to my main argument. That said, there is nothing in the data that causes me to believe there have been major changes in H-1b average pay."

     Is this is best reason you came up with when so many of citizens losing job because of H1b (as per your perspective).Time spent on number of comments you gave in this blog would be put in good use of creating a great report using your "Software to analyze LCA".How do you think average person can get the LCA and analyze it to understand what is going on?Is it not technical people like us who need to take some responsibility and provide best analyzed report for every citizen to understand?

Your comment:"If you want to volunteer your time for that task I can point you in the right direction and help you avoid common pitfalls with the data (it isn't 100% reliable - bad data on both the high and low ends). If you simply take the data at face value and don't manipulate findings to suit your agenda (which I was adamant about) it doesn't matter who does the work because the results should be the same. It's math."

          I do know the locations to look for data and I had spent my time in analyzing and understanding those data.And every year I gather all those data for review and provide those information to help people understand what it means to them.As I gave the basic analysis data for public view, which you can validate and help everyone to get educated on how to read those data.

Your comment:"When I did my research I looked at unemployment in relationship to H-1b visas approved and detailed how at the same time unemployment was rising, so were H-1b approvals. It added insult to injury in an already troubled workforce (during the first recession in the 2000s)."

     I reviewed your analysis data and your basic assumption is comparing year to year data is correct.I would like to disagree on that basic assumption, in general unemployment data is getting updated weekly basis where as H1 data is provided on yearly basis where the application gets filed at April 1st every year.After filing company has very less reason to react (withdraw h1 application which is additional cost to the company) to the lost project/work.All h1b filed are not going to be approved at US consulate and all who got visa stamping are not going to land US unless the company who sponsored invited them to join a project (which could have been lost due to bad market after filing h1).You need to see the effect of unemployment on the next year h1b filing.For everyone to understand I have given bird eye view of unemployment-h1 analysis (we need to remember all unemployment count is not associated with IT field which consumes major h1 quota).

      

FY Year

H1B        Total H1B Cap     H1B Approved     Unused H1B

2000         115,000                 115,000          Reply

Jun 17, 2011 4:58 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
0

2001         195,000                 163,600     31,400

2002         195,000                   79,100     115,900

2003         195,000                   78,000     117,000

2004           65,000                   65,000         0

My perspective on the above data

1)     On 2000 when the recession started all quota (115,000) got approved (but no one knows how many came to US).

2)     On 2001 163,000 got approved and 31,400 is not even got used, may be companies started losing project or no new orders coming thru.

3)     On 2002 &2003 total H1 approved is less than 79,100 where as unused h1b's are more than 115,900.(Again no one knows how many really got stamping and how many came to US).

Overall H1 application count is always won't react immediately due to the timing nature of filing start time.Those numbers cannot be compared on same year, also without numbers on how many got stamping and how many really came to US there no way of telling how it is directly affected during the recession.

Another example is 2008 recession, when the recession started mid 2008 where companies already filed H1 applications by April 1st 2008 (for Fiscal year 2009) and in two days USCIS got more applications (123,000 for available 85,000) than what it can approve (65,000 on general quota and 20,000 for students who had done MS in US).And as usual they went for lottery system to select which visa can be approved (which most believe the worst thing to do). Guess what most of the people who got approved not turned for stamping and most who got stamping didn't came to US (I don't have numbers but I know many of my friends fall under those category).

On 2009 (for Fiscal year 2010) it took Dec 2009 to get enough number of application (just a application, how may gets approved and stamped is out of equation).

It clearly shows only market and job availability defines the H1b consumption nothing else.In the recession time corporate could have got more cheap (if at all they are cheap) labors when no one is there to fight for h1b visa like they had experienced in 2008.

Your comment:"Now, back to my core argument:Immigrants should not be sponsored by corporations or any other entity. They should not be placed in a position that creates a second class or labor. Do you agree with that statement?"

     Your argument seems to be great in text but in reality that doesn't work. To know if it works are not you don't have to travel far away country.just check the immigration policy in Canada you can learn a lot from their mistakes.Also it will be easier to close all gaps in the existing system (which I feel there are very few) rather than trying new system with plenty of flaws and take decades to fix it one by one. Reply

Jun 17, 2011 4:59 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
So, in the base I respectfully disagree with the view of creating new system which no one knows how to design and in general the time frame congress takes to fix any issues (even the most urgent ones), it won't be great idea to start freshly.

     I don't agree to the argument of second class labor based on various points I had quoted before (few just to revist)

1)     Companies cannot hold a h1 as hostage, h1 resource can change their employer anytime.If they resource can't speak up then it is the issue with the resource not with the system.To fix any abuse the person who gets affected needs to speak up otherwise no one can resolve it.

Example : If a person abusing his/her spouse, he/she needs speak up otherwise no one knows it and no one can help.As per your suggestion we should just stop getting married to avoid any abuse or create new kind of relationship instead of educate/fix existing system.

Your comment:"I believe that immigration programs should only be permanent (green cards), with the exception of student and tourist visas and perhaps a handful of executive visas (the L-1, but how it was intended to be used and not how it is used). Do you agree with that?"

     Sounds good but if it works, this is how Canada immigration system works.Problems someone proves he is of great candidate of a particular skill set to a government agency and with their expertise and knowledge level they accept them as PR and once the person gets in he has to search for job and eventually he sends all his reserve fund and started consuming government funds for staying there.Hope you are aware of Canada medical system and US medical system, there government takes care of medical expenses (though it works really bad that is different debate altogether) where as in US the person has to take care until he gets his/her first job, rest I will leave it to your wild guess on what are the issues it raises till he/she gets job.But, current system make sure any person who gets in US should be paid by his/her employer from day 1 and when they discontinue h1 the employer has to pay for return ticket.All the time the resource stays in US they are tied to the employer who had sponsored the visa so until they revoke H1 it is employer responsibility to pay him/her.In your suggestion, who will take care of all those responsibility, do you suggest US government?Please that the worst thing you can do to anyone who wants to come to US.Your suggestion is at very basic level and once your develop into workable real system you will know what kind of monster system you need to manage all those activities which is taken care by employers now.

     I don't want to get into L1 because I have normal understand of that part of system and with the understanding I can say no government can validate any abuse of that program.Simple reason, companies can just say this resource is going to work in XYS location to implement project ABC.Now with zero knowledge about the project ABC any approval or denial by government agency is at their best guess and with no number limitation there is no reason for companies to use it wisely. Also, general public with basic knowledge of different immigration programs get to know more about H1b (thanks for journalists/bloggers like Don Tennant) and very easily blame all job issues on H1b (to their knowledge that is the only program to get into US). Reply

Jun 17, 2011 4:59 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
Do we know how many L1 gets approved every year and why not USCIS is and labor fixed any salary requirement for this program.Is it not the best program for companies to use as cheap labor with lot of restriction on changing employer without going to home country (on most cases once you resign in US, notice period needs to be served in home country). To my knowledge (I never been part of this program so I could be wrong) L1 is the program which creates second class labor with no limitations or government oversight with one benefit of your spouse can start working immediately (not sure what kind of labor force they belongs to).

When there is no LCA required do you think companies going to pay above and beyond what their counterparts in US gets?

When there are no number limitations and with fewer restrictions (which reduce total cost of getting this visa) do you think companies are going to use H1 instead of L1 and use it wisely.

Your comment:"I believe that immigration numbers should be sustainable. A simple solution I came up with was 25% of net jobs created the previous year. In years of high job growth we will have higher levels of immigration. In years of decline we won't accept new immigrants (Except IMMEDIATE family members of current immigrants). Do you agree with that at least in principal?"

     

This is agreeable policy but implementation will have its own issues, one issue pops up in my mind immediately.

That is, a H1 can be given for different sectors and that to different kind of job in a sector (in a construction sector there are different job like painter, a/c installation specialist etc.,) where as unemployment number is included all sectors if at all it is at sector wise I will be at very very high level of bird eye view.To avoid this issue we need to start collecting very specific (example, if I become unemployed in construction field then I should start reporting what specific job I had lost where as I could have done 10 different job in the construction field). I will leave it to you to give a thought about what are other issues and how to resolve it.Please, don't say we can start with this approach and slowly fix if any issue pops up and as I mentioned before no government can react fast enough on these kinds of issues and with this global competition no company can afford to lose any opportunity to earn a work.

     At this point most of the job loss is related to construction and associated fields and as per your suggestion we should stop issuing any visas to other sector (let's say for nursing where there is huge shortage) because construction sector got hit with unemployment.

Your comment:"I believe that we should show favor to immigrants from our allied nations. If someone from the UK or Canada (who sends soldiers to fight next to ours in Iraq) wants to immigrant they should be favored over say people from Switzerland who have remained neutral. Do you agree with that?"

     This policy will be best fit for DV lottery system which gives 50,000 GC every year to different country people when their representation in US is very less (to avoid getting more people from same/similar country).But for employment based immigration I don't think this is suggestion fits well.And I believe you know why I say it won't work for employment based immigration if not let me know I can explain in detail.

Your comment: Reply

Jun 17, 2011 4:59 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
"I believe we should show favor to those with the highest education and the most experience. I oppose a lottery system. Do you agree with that?"

     I agree this will work for DV lottery system where you can say highest education would get preference.Now there is only basic qualification set and then all qualified resource get into lottery system.

     But for employment based it works provided we implement in different format rather than going only with highest education (highest education to company A will be different from highest education to company B).Let's say in US there lot of demand for JAVA developers and it requires only a BS with some experience to do the job and as per your suggestion those demand cannot be met because BS is not of highest education for that year (say that year 100K candidates with MS had applied).Do you think a person with MS will be interested to go for developer job with salary $65k to $85k where as he can get $125k to $150k in his field of expertise.

     Now you can say lets split the education qualification based on sectors and then there is lot of issues associated with that too.I oppose any lottery system in immigration in that part I can agree with you.

Your comment:"I believe we should favor families of current immigrants over new immigrants, because I believe a strong family is an important part of being successful in America. Do you agree with that?"

     I can fully agree with your suggestion if you can elaborate it more specific.No country can survive only with a family with based immigration, I can sponsor visa for all siblings even when they don't have great ability/willingness to contribute to the country and this link can go on and on with billions migrating with few hundred people contributing.For this reason US has different immigration program.I won't be wise to say no new immigrant can come in to fill a job (where no citizen available, qualified and willing to do the job) until all families got united in next one or two decades.

Your comment:"In summary, I have describe who we should permit, under what circumstances, and in what numbers. Obviously we can't allow everyone who wants to immigrate here come because people would flee third world nations in droves and our system couldn't support that. But, we are still a nation of immigrants and we should support some sustainable number."

     I think US does this already, only few issues needed to be fixed.

Your comment:"So to summarize. Who:Allied nations, families, most educated and experienced. What conditions:Green card (no second class society - ie corporate sponsorship) How many:25% of net job creation last fiscal year. Can you agree with that?"

     Please read by comments to get my point of view for details and below is my summary.

Who:Allied nations (one country is allied nation to US for long time but most of the citizen are not feeling the same in both country, unfortunately government cannot go with what people feel it has to go with law congress writes and in which they can't wirte those feelings), families( we already have great family immigration program all it needs is increase the speed of process if possible increase the count allowed each year), most educated (very subjective term, already for any work visa there is basic education qualification and experience qualification defined, to me it is the company who provides employment should decide what education is needed for that job not the government) and experienced( this part for sure I can accept because to be reasonably good in any field you need good experience).

What conditions: Reply

Jun 17, 2011 5:00 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
Green card (fully agree with you, but in general without living the life of immigrants we should not give suggestions based on guesswork or other general websites.If any person on H1 claims they are treated as 2nd class then it is their own fault of not report to respective department.If you don't get paid you are free (yes, no one tied you) to change the employer.I would like to disagree to your point of 2nd class society.Now at the least LCA is there to validate the salary paid for h1, think if GC is given directly then they will undercut the wage level to what is good for them.All said we need to fix the current green card system which is not helping anyone, fixing the GC system is one big solution to all issues related h1 resources.)

     How many: 25% of net job creation last fiscal year (this is sounds good but there is tons of issues associated with implementation for sure no issues will be identified in the documentation stage.We should remember ultimately this is going to affect the corporate which is using immigrants for their openings and it gets consumed based on existing demand and by default market corrects by itself.Your suggestion of one number fits all category is big flaw in this approach it is like asking my neighbor not to eat their dinner because I didn't got mine today)

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Jun 17, 2011 6:17 AM who knows who knows  says:

Don Tennant, It was good to know you are willing to change your stand based on others view.Very rarely people will change their view once they decided on with whom they stand.Though it was great to have people like you sometime it worries others to know you took your decision based on few comments from people who are not part of the system.No matter with whom you stand I respect your view.My perspective on Roy's comment,

Roy's comment:I believe is flawed beyond repair, and as such it needs to be abolished in favor of something smarter.

 Whenever people say a system is flawed they don't list the issue validated from the people who claim they got affected.If we think existing system is flawed and beyond repair what is the guarantee that a new system designed by same people (in this case congress) will be smarter.People who are familiar with the way congress works will know there is very less people who can create smarter system and even such a smart system is designed it will be accepted by other congress (when every single issue is concluded based on partisan).

Roy's comment:"I believe that corporations should not be immigration middle-men."

   

 May be Roy would have forgot someone else has to play that middle-men role.

 Who is going to play that middle-men role ?Lets take few of existing resource

1) Congress:We can't go to them everything because in general it takes decades for them to make any decision unless it is personal/political gain for them.If we get partisan congress like we have now then forget about getting anything done.

2) USCIS :They are like computers, they work based on written program(laws from congress), they will keep executing the program no matter what/who it affects unless the flaw is fixed (which requires congress action and now we know how long it is going to take).Classic example is existing GC system, country based % limit for family is great because they don't want one or two countries dominate in US.But when the apply the same system to employment based immigrants it is super bad.Because when only few countries contribute more number of resources which companies needed to deliver any project/work having country based limit make people to wait decades to get GC.When company recruit a resource they don't discriminate based on country of birth, USCIS don't prevent few country dominates when applying for work visa.But when it comes to giving GC USCIS uses same policy of family based GC.For family based there is valid reason, at the time of applying family members are not in US and not part of US in way where as a person holding work VISA, they are here already and part of the US system and performing all duties (except voting) of a citizen.To correct this USCIS needs congress to pass a law and congress was trying to do this for couple of decades with no success.Funny part is congress already provided required GC numbers, only correction required is remove the country limit so that unused numbers (from numbers allotted to countries which provide no/less resource for work visa category) can be used for people who born from countries who contribute more resources on work visa category.Now it is up to your wild guess how congress and USCIS will work together and create a smarter system

 3) New Agency:This would consume substantial amount of time and money by the time corporate's would have completed 100% out sourcing for rest of the projects available in US so that they don't get into decades of delays in getting any resource.

  Reply

Jun 17, 2011 6:18 AM who knows who knows  says:

Roy's comment:"Immigration is about something much more pure and sacrosanct than corporate profits.I believe it needs to be abolished in favor of permanent immigration, self sponsorship as opposed to corporate sponsorship, the favoring of relatives (families) over new immigrants, and sustainable numbers."

  We should keep in mind that immigration and earning citizenship is two different thing.Citizenship is what is of more pure and sacrosanct but not the immigration.In US you can be in GC till your life but never apply for citizenship and enjoy almost all rights a citizen gets without losing his/her citizenship of his/her own country.

 At times we assume that corporate is evil but not the people.I think it is other way around, people are evil and create corporate with evil intention.How do we know a person who is self sponsorship is of great person and he is going to die of US.They come here with pre-defined/preached opinion about US and we cannot assume all those people will change their mind (like Don) based on information they gain here (classic example is persons who involved in 9/11 who are immigrants with preached(I believe in no kid born with evil thought) evil in them).If you want to see if self sponsored immigration system works then better learn it from Canada.Other than family based immigrants no one should enter US without reasonable ability and have job in hand before landing.This can be achieved in existing system and it may have few flaws which we should be correcting it.

Roy's comment:"I would limit new immigration to 25% of net job gains each year.In years where we have job loss, I would restrict immigration.Finally, certainly more people would apply than we have openings for.I would make the acceptance based on merit, not first come or a lottery. My case is about economics and national interest, and has nothing to do with race.In fact, I want greater protections for immigrants."

   This is really good to be in speaking but implementing without flaw is kind of questionable.It will be of great disadvantage for any sector to be restricted in getting immigrants based on performance of all sectors (in creating job).I agree on no lottery system for anything related to immigration.It was really worrying to know we have DV lottery system which distributes 50,000 GC (if you on work visa you have to wait for a decade or two based on country of birth) with qualification of nothing but completed high school.We should implement the best and brightest only gets GC in this category to avoid all unwanted (I mean nothing but terrorist who does nothing but evil to human kind) elements.

Roy's comment:"I believe the reason they are so easily exploited is because of corporate sponsorship.Green cards (in sustainable numbers) would make them equal players in the labor market.An H-1b visa amounts to second class labor and corporate sponsorship gives companies leverage against your wages and salary.This hurts you directly and it hurts us indirectly-because we now must compete against workers who are easily exploited."

  This comment could be because of some misguided information from wrong source.As per existing law no H1 resource can be exploited and if at all such thing happens they have all rights to launch a complaint with DOL and USCIS after which that company will never get any new H1.And the resource has same at-will contract with the employer so the can join any company which treat them with fairness. Reply

Jun 17, 2011 6:18 AM who knows who knows  says:
I don't think you can have a H1 resource in any project without paying beyond what a full-time resource/citizen gets.If you ever recruited an H1 you will know how much it costs and how much trouble you will go through.With new rules (prove employee-employer relationship) they can't even think of doing any consulting job where the project is not directly controlled by the employer.I do see places where employees gets struck with an employer, and it is never because of H1.It is all because of GC which takes decades to get based on your country of birth.Just fixing this one issue will free them from any abusive employee (if at all they can't get any new employer to sponsor).

Finally, Don I really appreciate your openness with sharing your thought with everyone.Most people stuck to their opinion and never review it periodically.Hope your next periodical review will get back to helping H1 community.Please list the issues associated with H1 and try to fix it instead of creating another mess(in the name of smart program) and let people suffer for another 3 - 4 decade and we need another Don to come and say "I was wrong -- The S1B (smart) Visa program must be Abolished".If you revisited your opinion based on Roy's comment please consider my side of view too, hope this gives you back to us.

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Jun 17, 2011 6:55 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Ok....we have 10% unemployment, we know that the H1Bs get an advantage due to their fake resume practices....so we don't want the H1B program right now. We want to get back to the basics, get our citizens gainfully employed. It is the will of the American people.

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Jun 17, 2011 9:24 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to who knows

I didn't change my view based on Roy's opinion. I cited Roy's opinion as a good encapsulation of some of the conclusions I had drawn after following the issue for some time-the bottom line being that trying to fix the broken H-1B system does not appear to me to be the answer to bettering the lives of people who are impacted by the work visa issue, whether as a person from outside the U.S. who holds the visa, or as an American whose livelihood has been affected by abuse of the system. But let no one contrue that to mean I've chosen a "side" against the people who are in this country on H-1B visas. If I'm on any side in this discussion, it's the side against people who engage in mean-spiritedness, hatefulness, threatening behavior or personal attacks against anyone. We may disagree on whether the H-1B program should be abolished, but that doesn't mean we're on different sides.

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Jun 17, 2011 10:56 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

Is it not the company who get h1 resource as contractor (after the implementation of Employer-employee verification very less resource can work on contract unless the client is ready to share confidential data for public review) have to put a clause with the consulting company that, if found any fake resource they will incur all cost of replacing and training genuine resource to their satisfaction, then see what kind of resources they get. If the company is going for cheap contractor then they are part of the problem.

To my experience I don't think any contractor is cheap for end client (the cheapest contractor I have seen is $70/hr with 3yrs of experience in his field) and our company has the clause I have mentioned before, none of the consulting company work with us try any trick because they know the cost of doing so. All it takes is someone who has real interest in company success in any project they take-up. If they don't bother about client they are not going to care about resources they consider for a job. I assume the responsibility of getting best resource for my client/project, with bad/fake team resource no one can deliver the project no matter how much effort you put in. If a person says HR/consulting company got me fake resource because of which we couldn't deliver then it is him/her who is part of the problem.

Is it that tough to find a fake resource? All it takes is 15 mins of technical interview and if the resource is good in clearing interview just in 1 or 2hrs of his work on first day of job will show his originality.

If I am not reporting any issues to concern department then I am the part of problem not part of the solution. Just blaming/abolishing the program is not the right solution unless the program is not needed anymore.

All said, do you really think H1 program can be abolished without corporate(s) agreeing for it? I don't think so, reason is simple corporate(s) play key role in any election and as long as corporate(s) play the important role (which only publish should play) there is no way you can see anything against the corporate. May be we should start from fixing the source of all problems which will eventually take care of all other minor issues.

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Jun 17, 2011 11:39 AM Guest Guest  says:

It is sad that even Don came to this conclusion based on some posts........It is amazing that how many people strongly believe that entire H1B workforce is cheap labor ....Most of them make around $55-$75 an hour ....

I guess all the people complaining about immigration should not forget the fact that most of them are either 1st generation or 2nd generation or 3rd geneartion immigrants themselves......Maybe some native american should come over here and start complaining about how europeans came over to this country and took everything from them.....

Guys lets have a conversation about how to fix the problem rather than attacking a particular set of defenseless people.....

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Jun 17, 2011 11:50 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

So far most of the comments are within the topic and by just using h1b/migration in your comment doesn't qualify as related to H1B.

Let me tell you one thing, a idiot is just an idiot and he/she doesn't represent any country/race/religion/group.

Hope no one concludes this blog is junk and ppl whoever is immigrants are like you, after reading your comments because as per your view a i**** can represent country/race/religion/group.

Some time keeping quite is wise than showing your ignorance, now you lost all your credibility (if at all you have earned) because of this comment.

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Jun 17, 2011 12:54 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Also you simply forgot the main reason for rates came down, "low cost of outsource" those jobs that demand $150/hr - $200/hr to $150/day - $200/day locations.Every fortune 500 companies now have an outsourcing location either in India/China or some near locations which is the main reason for rates came down.And you need to know number of employees they have now to know the real effect.Also do you know still companies charge $150/hr - $200/hr for their employee's to provide any DBA support to client?Because no client wants to handle individual consultants who can't provide any backup if needed, all they want is come through a company which has no issues associated with individual consultants.

In general if a professional aware of what is happening around him/career he/she will one day regret for it. The moment we feel our job is not that important or adding any value (in terms of corporate/client gain) our job is getting/going to extinct.We can't just keep doing our job the way we had done 10yrs back and expect the company to keep us in the job, world is changing very fast if we can't adapt then blaming others is not a great solution.

Do you believe just removing H1B program will resolve your job issue?Do you know there are programs which come with less restriction than H1 and corporate's used them more than H1?There are legitimate reasons those programs was created and it is not serving the real purpose, shutting down all those programs will only help outsourcing nothing else.If you never worked with a company which has offshore facility, you may never understand how those corporate works.Simple rule, if I can't get a resource here simply I will out source and with so many technologies (VMWare, RDP, etc) you really don't need a resource sitting in your office to do any job.

Do we know what is the percentage of different kind resources contribute (Foreign workers, college grads etc.,) for rates falling down?Without that information how can we just hunt down foreign workers?Where there are tons of reasons for IT jobs not coming up if we still claim foreign workers are main reason then there could be one of the reasons.

1)     Because they are easy target and very easy to create hate around them.

2)     Because they never speak up no matter what/who are against them?

3)     Because it is going to affect someone else (which is kind of short sighted) who I never know.

4)     Because I don't own a company and I never know how much it takes to get a h1 and their lose is not mine.

I can say from my personal experience, no company (including the company I work now) want to recruit H1 even if it is half the costs of citizens, provided citizens are ready, available and willing to take that job.

In general if a professional aware of what is happening around him/career he/she will one day regret for it. The moment we feel our job is not that important or adding any value (in terms of corporate/client gain) our job is getting/going to extinct.We can't just keep doing our job the way we had done 10yrs back and expect the company to keep us in the job, world is changing very fast if we can't adapt then blaming others is not a great solution.

Do you believe just removing H1B program will resolve your job issue?Do you know there are programs which come with less restriction than H1 and corporate's used them more than H1? Reply

Jun 17, 2011 12:54 PM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson
There are legitimate reasons those programs was created and it is not serving the real purpose, shutting down all those programs will only help outsourcing nothing else.If you never worked with a company which has offshore facility, you may never understand how those corporate works.Simple rule, if I can't get a resource here simply I will out source and with so many technologies (VMWare, RDP, etc) you really don't need a resource sitting in your office to do any job.

Do we know what is the percentage of different kind resources contribute (Foreign workers, college grads etc.,) for rates falling down?Without that information how can we just hunt down foreign workers?Where there are tons of reasons for IT jobs not coming up if we still claim foreign workers are main reason then there could be one of the reasons.

1)     Because they are easy target and very easy to create hate around them.

2)     Because they never speak up no matter what/who are against them?

3)     Because it is going to affect someone else (which is kind of short sighted) who I never know.

4)     Because I don't own a company and I never know how much it takes to get a h1 and their lose is not mine.

I can say from my personal experience, no company (including the company I work now) want to recruit H1 even if it is half the costs of citizens, provided citizens are ready, available and willing to take that job.

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Jun 18, 2011 1:07 AM Guest Guest  says: in response to who knows

Perfectly put. You can't take few incidents here and there and then use them to instigate others, it will not serve any purpose. There will be people who game the system and commit fraud...but that doesn't mean every legal immigrant working on a H1B visa is a scam artist.

  I am surprised even Don is advocating for abolishing H1B because it is beyond irreparabale. So, if it is tough to fix it we should just abolish it???.....Which Govt program in this country is devoid of some fraud? Doesn't Medicare/Medicaid have problems??? Aren't there people trying to game Social welfare programs in US?? Is Medicare easy to fix?? If it is not easy fix, should we just ban the programs that are not easy to fix?? I am not able to understand the logic here. Most of the people here are blaming legal immigrants for their woes. Do you think a company like facebook and Apple will hire some H1B over a talented american just to save 10-15k per year?? The problem I suspect might be sepcific to IT outsourcing companies and US govt should be more proactive in going after them......but blaming  a specific set of people will not help any cause...

  Have a Good weekend, everyone!

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Jun 18, 2011 1:46 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Things work pretty much how they did in the citytime project with a majority of the projects. I have never ever seen a project run smoothly, per plan. Some hapless people get thrown under the bus as the project limps along toward completion.

www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/05/citytime-us-attorney-preet-bharara-says-consultant-grabbed-5m-in-kickbacks

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Jun 18, 2011 2:44 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

The whole H1b program pretty much contributes to fraud....I have never ever met an H1b that is genuine in terms of experience and qualifications.

Now, why do I need to put up with this? The H1bs can do whatever fraud in their own countries and I will not question it. It is their business.

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Jun 18, 2011 10:25 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to hireamerican

Before I get it in to how it should have done, I don't see any relation to H1 with the fraud. I have never seen any H1 resource holding full responsibility of a whole project execution of this magnitude. Do you think if this project was done using only citizens (if they got that golden opportunity) no fraud would have happened ?

All I see from your comments is "gotcha" incidents of frauds here and there and link those with immigrants to claim all immigrants are like this and we should close door for any legal immigrants.

Fraud/crime is committed by person with fraudulent/evil intent and no single/few incidents will represent a group(immigrants/citizens/religion). If you still insist any fraud happens in US is done my immigrants then there is no one can guide you out of your ill opinion. All you can do is help spread haters around immigrants and only reason you do this would be it is not going to affect you.

From the basic details from the link what I get is,

No one executed their responsibility in full faith at any stage of the project and government officials has no clue on how to monitor these kind of mega projects.  All they should have done is put stringent clause on how the success of project measured and how they will pay based on phases of completion.

I have worked in several state and federal project and every one we worked on has contract with big tooth like delay of a week or two will eat all our earnings in the name of penalty and the cost is fixed. Why can't government have list of projects (any project for that matter) in a single website for public to see its progress. All fraud can happen when it is kept it only for officials to view, open it for public you will see major changes. Transparency is key for killing any fraud in government it has no relation to immigrants.

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Jun 20, 2011 3:52 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Thanks for your reply for not going to reply.If you decided not to share any information to disprove my facts very much shows none of my facts are wrong or to the level you can reject it. I had gone through all your comments and no where you had mentioned any clue on who is going to handle your plan which is very much important on how it will be handled.

Not to respond to my comments is your decision and you have reason for the same. When I registered in the site it gave me display name which I didn't concentrated or cared enough to update it. I don't see any big difference between userxxxxx to RangaS. It doesn't matter if your name is X or Y or Z, all I care is what is your suggestion and whether it works or not. If you provide great solution why does I need to disagree with you. If your solution solves all issues with H1 program why would other will disagree. To me your solutions are of half baked with no information on how and who will implement it.  If you think you need to know everything about the person commenting on your post, I would say it is better you stop commenting in public forum and concentrate on your "Software on code generation". We are not in a conference room to share who am I and what is my credibility.

If your are so smart you shouldn't have started responding to my comments from the beginning, rather you decided to stop responding once you have felt nothing to offer(to the basic question of who is going to handle self sponsored visa) as valid solution.

My best wishes for your "Software to generate code" so that no corporate is needed this h1 program. Also, there is no need of IT resources as any person can generate code with your software, eventually you will do the same thing what h1 resource is doing(as per your claim of killing jobs in US).

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Jun 20, 2011 12:08 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Guest

It's not a matter of "let's fix a few things and it is good to go".  The very idea of corporate sponsored visas and visas that string people along in hopes of gaining permanent residence - but doesn't pan out for most - is wrong.  The notion of using immigration to target key occupations is also wrong - that is a subsidy and market manipulation.

The H-1b is fundamentally wrong, so it is pointless to try and fix something that can't be made right.

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Jun 20, 2011 12:22 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Guest

Don didn't arrive at this position because of a few posts.  He has been surrounded by this issue for years and ultimately came to a different conclusion.

He said that what distracted him from ultimately arriving at that conclusion are all of the hateful and anti-immigrant posts that he read on nearly a daily basis.

This is why I feel strongly that we need to leave those types of arguments out of the debate - they only breed resentment and are a distraction from core arguments.

This is an issue impacting two key areas.  Immigrant rights and the role of corporations to control those rights, and the impact on American workers.  You need to consider both issues in order to resolve this problem.

It took me a long time to realize that the H-1b program (and all corporate sponsored visas) were hopeless - and impossible to fix.  Every time we would think of some fix to a loophole, there was some other loophole or perhaps an entirely different program that could be exploited.  Just look at Infosys and their abuse of the B-1 visa, which we are told is very common and not only something Infosys is doing.

The solution is to reduce the complexity of our immigration system and to really focus on what the goal of immigration is.  Is the goal a revolving, exploitable pool of temporary labor without regard to American workers?  If so, then I suppose we are meeting that goal.

I believe the goal should be to support permanent immigration to the United States in sustainable numbers, and that we should oppose all corporate sponsored and temporary worker visas, with a few exceptions.  For example, I would support the L-1 visa if it were for true executives - ie senior level people who direct/manage work and not people who do work - with prevailing wage requirements.

Our immigration programs are too complex.  We need to follow the KISS principle or else they will always manage to find loopholes to exploit.  We certainly shouldn't be creating a "second class" body of workers with restricted rights of mobility in the labor market, which is what corporate sponsorship does.

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Jun 20, 2011 12:39 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

User1969099  - almost each of your points addressing my position are based on logical fallacies and weakly formed slippery slope arguments.  Some of the things you stated as facts are simply put - wrong.

I've addressed each of these same points enough times in this thread that I'm not going to repeat myself - so look at other posts by me if you want a rebuttal.

I don't know who you are since you posted anonymously.  If you wish to debate the matter further, I'll debate anyone not posting anonymously.  The reason I have this criteria is because almost all discussions I have with anonymous people aren't productive because people feel they can say anything - no matter how outlandish - when they hide behind a pseudonym.

If you are in the United States on a corporate sponsored visa and because of this you don't fee comfortable speaking out publicly on the matter - I can understand that.  It's not easy to speak freely when corporations control your right to be here. 

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Jun 21, 2011 8:31 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

@RangaS - your name is "good enough" for me in terms of not being anonymous.  I realize you were very thorough in your response and I owe you a reply.

Can you please summarize your key arguments - meaning the things you disagree with me the most on - so we can narrow our debate?  This thread is getting long so I want to focus on what is most important.

On my end, I spend allot of time composing responses and some of the things you mentioned I had already tackled so I really want to just focus on serious points of contention. 

On the data, I really think we should take that offline.  I've researched that data inside and out and there are plenty of studies on it.  Every study suggests a disparity between prevailing wage, market wage, and actual wage.  The GAO found over 20% fraud in a small audit they completed.  It's a full time job to work with that data because of a high error rate and faulty data to begin with, and I've completed enough research on it that I feel like I've beaten a dead horse.

What we need is more reliable data.  The LCA are simply petitions and don't always equate to actual H-1b visas.  Many LCAs are for multiple petitions and really just a bucket.  We don't know actual wage, how long the assignment was, if the worker is petitioning for a greencard, if the worker has changed jobs, or even left the country.  We don't even know what job site or employer they are working for, so many companies seem as if they don't use H-1b visas when in fact they are through third parties.  And on top of that the data is full of errors.

I use the LCA data as more of a finger to the wind.  If you put your finger to the wind in that database, and look at say offshoring companies you will see that they are clearly using as a source of low wage workers.  You can find other companies who seem to pay market wages.  If you do an average across IT consulting in general it's not pretty.

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Jun 21, 2011 8:36 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"My best wishes for your "Software to generate code" so that no corporate is needed this h1 program. Also, there is no need of IT resources as any person can generate code with your software, eventually you will do the same thing what h1 resource is doing(as per your claim of killing jobs in US)."

Yeah, I know.  Even if we stop the bleeding offshore and to China when it comes to manufacturing, automation is really a job killer.  It's quite a conundrum and I don't have all the answers.  Really, I just want to buy us time.  I think our best chance is if we move into globalization at a slower pace.  Societies don't adapt to major change over night.  We need to transition and not flip a switch.

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Jun 21, 2011 8:39 AM Ken Ferguson Ken Ferguson  says:

By way of introduction I have been an IT recruiter for 30 years placing permanent full-time employees primarily and have only worked with H1-B's occassionally as they lack Green Cards.  I have gotten a couple of H1-Bs transferred to companies who intend to get them Green Cards and in those case the wages were the same as every other person in the company.  I am also a Green Card holder myself from Canada who arrive in the U.S. on an L1.  

Haven't really thought this whole argument through and I will not take credit for the following idea as I read it first from Thomas Freidman.  It seemed liked a great idea and seems to me to be the immigration model that has resulted in Canada's current economic success. 

The plan is based on some facts about Indian immigrants and their characteristics which may include some stereotyping but stereotypes exist because they are often based on reality. 

Facts according to Freidman and similar to Don's - the number of patents filed and Silicon Valley startups are directly proportional to the H1B quota. 

Characteristics: family oriented, self-reliant, English speaking, entrepreneurial, fiscally and socially conservative, place big emphasis on education, not a drain on social services. (Sounds like "American" values to me, well, what they used to be.)  

The objective of the plan is to solve the immediate economic crisis and ensure the solvency of Social Security and Medicare long term.

Here's the plan:  Immediately issue Green Cards to 2 million young people from India with degrees between the ages of 25-30. 

They will NOT live off the public purse, they WILL start businesses and hire people, they WILL produce millions of offspring in stable families who will be pushed to get educated and become future high earning tax payers to replace aging boomers leaving the taxpayer ranks.

Take a look at the demographics of the recent immigrants to Canada from Hong Kong, India, Philipines  and China.  It's really hard for them to walk into Canada unannounced so Canada has the luxury of actually choosing who comes in and they choose wisely.  

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Jun 21, 2011 9:20 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Ken Ferguson

"Here's the plan:  Immediately issue Green Cards to 2 million young people from India with degrees between the ages of 25-30. "

So now instead of needing to create 8,000,000 jobs to get back to historic unemployment we need to create 10,000,000. 

"Facts according to Freidman and similar to Don's - the number of patents filed and Silicon Valley startups are directly proportional to the H1B quota. "

This is one of those cause and effect theories.  I wouldn't risk 2,000,000 jobs on you or Friedman's speculation here.  And why on Earth would you exclude the older immigrant workers and focus on 25-30 year olds.  Do you really think it is young people primarily filing patents?  And why would you favor Indians and discriminate against all the other nationalities?

The way we create jobs really has nothing to do with immigration.  We need our trade deficit to at least become balanced and ideally become a surplus.  The jobs are going to China and India and that is where our focus should be.  Not on rolling the dice with the latest person's immigration scheme. 

Immigration should be based on a percent of jobs created.  We should support permanent immigration, but the numbers need to be within reason.  As long as we have over 9% unemployment it isn't reasonable to put more people in line for fewer jobs. 

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Jun 21, 2011 11:46 AM Ajay Ajay  says:

I'm not sure I understand why there should be a strong preference for relatives of immigrants at least beyond say spouse and children. If you are worried about costs and jobs, relatives who may be low skilled or old are likely a larger drain than say the tax paying but non-benefit receiving H1-B visa holders. Given the current serious fiscal issues being faced by the US, supporting older relatives of immigrants who have not payed into the system is not going to be easy. Not that it is impossible, just that you need to understand the consequences of the policy.

If you do want immigration, it should be for the highly skilled workforce that will pay a lot more in taxes than consume in other forms of government spending.

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Jun 22, 2011 1:40 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Ken Ferguson

Ken says:

"I am also a Green Card holder myself from Canada who arrive in the U.S. on an L1.

Here's the plan:  Immediately issue Green Cards to 2 million young people from India with degrees between the ages of 25-30. "

Here's my plan - I dont go to YOUR country and tell you what your country's rules should be, and you return the courtesy

I remember reading a business etiquette book years ago, emphasizing the number one rule in traveling to other countries is that you do NOT comment on THEIR politics, that's it's extremely RUDE to do so!

I get so sick of pushy foreigners telling us what our laws should be!

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Jun 22, 2011 1:58 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Bob

do you realize that 2 million is about 6 percent of Canada's ENTIRE population, even though physically a larger country than the USA?!?!

How receptive would Canadians be, if I went up there, snapped my fingers and said CANADA should take in 2 million people from India?

Would they think it's really any of my business?

Or better yet, how about taking 270 million people from India, to even up the population density between the USA and Canada?

Shouldnt you bring up the population density of your country to match ours, before you come here and tell us to INCREASE ours?

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Jun 22, 2011 2:15 AM Bob Bob  says: in response to Bob

how bout it. Ken, we're all 'World Citizens' now...how about opening Canada up to Indian Genius to develop Canada to the same population density as the USA.  Surely you dont believe that Canada belongs to just one people, nor would you favor hoarding such a large area for such a small population!  It would help India, and Indian immigration ALWAYS helps, therefor, it would benefit Canada!

Surely you have the same attitudes toward Canada, that you have toward the USA......don't you?

You are suggesting increased immigration from India into Canada as well, arent you?

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Jun 22, 2011 3:06 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Ajay

" If you are worried about costs and jobs, relatives who may be low skilled or old are likely a larger drain than say the tax paying but non-benefit receiving H1-B visa holders. "

I guess if you see immigrants as a bunch of serfs and their objective for being here is corporate profits your view makes sense.

I believe we are building a nation.  Strong families are a big part of a strong nation. 

If we want to socially engineer a society (which I don't) why not just clone the smartest humans, send the clones to special schools, and avoid immigration all together.  We can create a clone army engineered to be serfs.  That will achieve your objectives.

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Jun 23, 2011 11:44 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

To keep it short I get into to my points(below) and disagreements with your view.

1) Every person gets into US for work needs to be validated by either a company or by an govt agency.I disagree with govt performing 100% work (validating resource eligibility, education qualification, field expertise etc) on shortlisting resources.No govt agency is smart and good enough to validate all kind of resources from different sector.No need of govt rationing in resource availability, most of the time they take hell lot of time to react by the time there won't be any companies here to hire such resource.

2) B1, L1 or Blanket Visa is where major issues (even you may agree with this) which has no validation (what so ever), no freedom for resources.So, I don't agree L1 is the best route for legal immigration (as you mentioned).

3) B1 is used for very short business (no work should be done) as per law and I would say there should be work visa for 3 to 6 months with salary limitation of twice that of H1 because it is short term contract work and it is always (will be) should be costly.

4) KISS principle cannot be implemented in immigration as it is not that straight forward as every one wishes.No govt organisation can implement anything (even the simplest thing in the world ...example ER treatment with less than 10mins wait time) simple.If govt agency is implementing forget about KISS.

5) If any person claims they are in H1 and his/her employer is abusing them (by not paying properly/regularly etc.,) please ask them to speak for them and report it to DOL.If they can't no one can speak for them, just because some people can't speak up it doesn't mean the whole program is wrong.Please list the issues in H1, I can give you right suggestion for handling it legally.No H1b resource can be abused unless he/she is accepting it.

6) H1b resource is not cheap labor, it is the biggest risk (in terms of investment) for any corporate to have h1 resource.Because, the resource is not tied to the company, they can just change the employer with just 2weeks of notice period.All it takes is another employer file for non-cap H1 and have the receipt to join.If he/she has knowledge/expertise to work he/she can find right employer for right salary.Every consulting company is aware of this and they make sure the resource is paid appropriately to avoid losing them and losing all money spent in recruiting them.

7) Remove country limit for GC, because country limit is not there for H1b and GC is always filed for people who are already in US and currenlty working.So they don't increase or decrease immigrants and so make sure GC is given to people withing a year of filing.This way your claim of H1 is getting abused (if at all the resource is not speaking up) will be gone for good.

8) Use available 140,000 GC wisely, provide the GC to working people asap (after meeting all legal requirement) which can reduce the unnecessary hold-off with same employer.GC frees the person from employer tie-up and the person is free to pursue his/her own wish(may provide job to others) or dream.

9) Release all required data to public on how many work visas(B1, H1, L1 etc) was filed/approved for which company and for what salary.How many are in US on yearly basis and if any company is not using approved work visa impose penalty.This will make the whole system is transparent (now it is half transparent...have data only for H1 and PERM) and restrict corporate(s) to use it wisely. Reply

Jun 23, 2011 11:44 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

10) Remove DV lottery (50,000 GC given just like that and just because you born in particular country), if US feels diversity visa need to be continued, make sure only best and brightest gets chance.Use this visa program to study how good govt agency can identify best and brightest.If govt agency is really good in identifying best and brightest then implement the same in lieu of other work visa.

11) H1b doesn't create second class labor market, I my self the best example, I had moved 4 employers (served proper notice period and never left any job in middle of project...still maintain good relationship with ex-employers) so far with never had any restriction.Moved my GC process from one employer to another without any issue (but it is quite expensive for companies and most of my friends scared me to hell for doing so).No corporate can/had hold/held me hostage in the name of work visa.

12) There won't be any true executive if a regulation mandates executive to approve any L1.Companies are not that responsible as govt/public wanted.So let them say whom they want to get into US but there should not be any blanket approval.Each and every application needs to be scrutinized fully for need, salary and US job market (for that particular job...please don't use general unemployment number here).

13) If needed create a non-profit organization (members from different sectors representation) to validate any approved application on random basis for any abuse/misuse.If proved abuse/misuse ban that company from getting any kind of visa.Have hefty penalty to make sure no corporate dream to fraud the system.As per current system no new company can file for work visa because USCIS requires at least 3yrs of tax return with profit to prove they can pay for immigrant.

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Jul 12, 2011 10:32 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don somehow I missed your response, I have few questions on your response.

When you say "people who are impacted by the work visa issue" what are the issue you are referring (any of refer to your previous blog is well and good).

When you say "an American whose livelihood has been affected by abuse of the system" what are the issues you are referring to ?

When you say "Abolish this h1b program" do you plan to offer alternative or just you want to just "Abolish this h1b program" and don't want any more immigrant for employment ?

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Oct 28, 2011 6:13 AM Bbuff1 Bbuff1  says: in response to who knows

Here is the problem with this visa.  It is used as an outsourcing tool .  Without the h1b visa holders, all offshoring would come to a grinding halt.  I am surprised that no one has mentioned this yet.  The h1bs are contributing directly to knowledge transfer and offshoring.  It has the opposite effect.  All the arguments that it brings jobs here and keeps them from being off shored are false.  I know how this is done.  A few h1bs are brought here.  One of them is made the manager.  The offshore facility usually has 4-5 employees per person here.  The manager is also made the boss of the existing American employees.  They are forced to transfer knowledge to the h1bs.  Each of the h1bs transfers the knowledge to 3-4 offshore employees.  The department soon moves offshore.  The whole thing is insidious.  The American employees are given no work while they train the h1bs.  Their job is simply to train.  Since their manager is himself an h1b, they have to agree.  The knowledge transfer happens at the speed of light with instant messaging and morning phone calls with offshore employees in which everyone has to participate.

The offshore quality sucks but you cannot compete with a 10 to 1 ratio of employees working at one tenth the price.  The h1b visa does not bring jobs here.  That is a lie and the corporations know it. 

The h1bs that came here in th 80s brought their jobs here and did not offshore them.  They bought houses and cars and paid taxes here.  The technology did not exist to be able to offshore American jobs.  There was no Internet and email and instant message.  It is different now and the h1b is no longer good for America.

There is no reason to target the software industry professionals with this kind of competition.  Find a better way.

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Dec 10, 2012 6:00 PM JH JH  says:
I second the view that states that the H-1b program prevents workers from acting as fair players in the labor market. There is a certain expectation society has from an Engineer with 10 years in the industry and when they see an Engineer (h-1b) earning half the salary of a non-technical professional at the same level, it probably makes the profession seem less attractive. Hello, could this be the cause of the skills gap we are seeing today? Reply
Jan 12, 2013 11:11 AM Thomas Green Thomas Green  says:
Hello All I think all of you whiners should upgrade your skills and stop complaining about foreign workers. There are still too many tech jobs that go unfilled and even if H1B is abolished, American citizens without the right credentials will not get these jobs. Smarten up guys, learn to compete in the global market place and for once, admit to yourself that you do not have the right caliber. Reply
Feb 22, 2013 4:43 PM MBA_Engineer MBA_Engineer  says:
I feel as long as companies are going to claim they absolutely have to have the H1B workers, it should be a new source of revenue (tax). raise the cost to the componies to $20,00 per H1B applicant. I bet they find a way to do something else, and maybe fix the system. Reply
Apr 5, 2013 10:27 PM Reality_of_H1B Reality_of_H1B  says: in response to Dolores
Not sure if the people here are aware of the american educated H1Bs and their qualifications. I know two friends, one attended harvard business school and joined Amazon.com and the other attended Stanford Business school and joined Mckinsey & Co. Each was paid over 150K with a signing bonus of ~40K. Now,if you look at the statistics for getting into the MBA program for either school, the acceptance rate is about 10% for domestic students and about 0.1% for international students. These guys who come from overseas are the top of their game and are extremely talented and an average american doesn't stand a chance against these guys. Reply
Apr 8, 2013 7:23 PM Marshall Marshall  says:
I cannot believe that Don with all his education can come out now and say he was wrong. So what changed you brother? But I thank you for your honesty and sincerity..Let me ask American High tech executives , congress, top business tycoons one question, why can’t we establish Indian style Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in the United States of America and staff them with Indian Professors or teachers that made IIT one of the best school in the world technology wise? This is simple economics, because the students they will graduate will be CHILDREN OF AMERICAN WHOSE PARENTS ARE TAX PAYERS. You can say why am i angry? Yes you are right iam angry because most Americans press,High tech companies,Congress, seems to be ignorance or not concern when it comes to problems of the other fellow or the other skills. Maybe we need to bring lawyers from other countries and law graduates in America will go and work at McDonalds after spending thousands of dollars in school fees. Its very sad because iam writing as a foreign born US citizen who has a software engineering degree and can train a homeless guy be a DBA. Please let us not lie to ourselves,TRAIN AMERICANS to work these job. Reply
Apr 10, 2013 6:40 AM natural born citizen natural born citizen  says:
All you have to do is read the completely specious and fallacious arguments spouted here by guest workers desperate to stay and the middle men who make a good living exploiting them (and more importantly, fleecing the hiring organization) to see how little foreign resources value the truth. You're not fooling anyone with your wide-eyed "we just want to help!" routine. Reply
Jun 25, 2013 1:50 AM Nano Nano  says: in response to twins.fan
Our batch of UC Berkeley Chemical Engineering from early 90s, some continued with MIT PhD, more than 90% of us ARE NOT working in the chemical engineering field. I have been more than 20 months unemployed in the past 3 years as near age of late 40s. One of us lost her job since 2008 because of flux of H1B in her company, never found a new job in the Silicon Valley. High-skills guest-worker program? I was once assigned to trained the whole H1B chemical engineer group from china and none of them could tell me the difference between ketone and aldehyde. They can keep their job because they are still in H1/L1. Some of them, lost their jobs once get the green card. 'Can't find enough skilled labor to fill the positions'? It is far from the truth. They are telling us even Berkeley/MIT trained engineers are not good enough? Go look at the data! Reply
Aug 14, 2013 5:45 PM jango jango  says: in response to Truthseeker
Stop calling H1B visa holders "Immigrants" About 3% of H1B Visa holders eventually settle permanently in the U.S. Maybe my parents didn't come over on the mayflower, but that is irrelevant to the topic of H1B Visas. These people are foreign antional guest workers, they are not "Immigrants". If you want to be treated like an immigrant, then Immigrate to the United States, permanently. Then nobody will have a problem with you. Or stay in your own country and get a job there. Reply
Sep 8, 2013 4:06 PM Rob Rob  says:
Here is the link to petition on stop H1b - Visa Holders http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/stop-h1b-visa-holders?source=s.fwd&r_by=8739561 Reply
Oct 15, 2013 11:36 AM vicky vicky  says: in response to Dolores
As a foreigner who's been trying to enter the American job market for a while, I can't find a single job that has been advertised for foreigners only. Most jobs explicitly only consider locals\permanent residents only and the remaining ones always prefer locals. I don't know if the situation has changed so much since you posted, but I just wanted to let people know that what you're saying is incorrect. Reply

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