Do Infosys' Clients Share Culpability in Alleged Visa Fraud?

Don Tennant

Now that the visa fraud lawsuit against Infosys, along with the U.S. government's ensuing criminal investigation of the company, is finally getting more widespread mainstream press coverage, a very unwelcome spotlight is being shined on Infosys' U.S. clients. A key question that's begging to be asked is an uncomfortable one: Do those clients share culpability if Infosys employees are found to be working illegally on their premises?

 

I posed that question to Kenny Mendelsohn, the attorney who filed the civil suit against Infosys on behalf of Infosys employee and whistleblower Jay Palmer. My sense was that Mendelsohn had his doubts about whether legal action would realistically be taken against the clients, but he made it clear that it's certainly possible:

My understanding of the law is that there is that possibility, although it would be up to the federal prosecutors to pursue something like that. There are some provisions in the law that say if you have people working for you, even through a contract, if they are here on improper visas or are illegal aliens, you can be held responsible for it. I think [the client companies] would have a lot of defenses, but then again, that would be for their lawyers and the State Department and Homeland Security [to address]. So there's a possibility of a technical violation, but they'd have defenses to it, because they were all relying on Infosys to do the correct thing.

The provisions in the law he was referring to are found in Section 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act. Mendelsohn cited as an example the fact that there have been cases in which homeowners who employ contractors that hire illegal aliens have been held liable for that transgression. He noted that a critical factor in this case is whether an illegal Infosys employee reports directly to an Infosys manager, or to a manager in the client company:

If they're reporting directly to the client, that gives the client a lot more exposure and a lot more at risk, because there's a lot more responsibility on the client. But so much of criminal law really comes down to knowledge-what you know about what's going on, and any criminal intent behind it. What you typically see is that if the client is actually supervising the employees, they have more control and the ability to gather more information-that's why the exposure is greater when Infosys employees are reporting directly to the client. But it still comes down to the interpretation of that statute and how the government would want to pursue it.

I asked Mendelsohn what his advice would be for an Infosys client company to avoid being held liable. His response:

If I was one of their clients, knowing what I know right now, the first thing I'd be doing is going through my facility, wherever the Infosys people are working, and demand to see their passports to determine what visa they're here on. If I had someone working for me on a B1 visa, I would have him leave my facility immediately, and I'd be contacting Infosys to verify who was here on B1s, and who wasn't. And then I'd take a closer look at the H1s, too, to see if they're actually doing specialized work. The first thing I'd be doing is making my own determination of whether I had any people there illegally, because if you make the determination that they're there, clearly you have the responsibility to not allow them to keep working for you.

Now, given how easy it is to imagine that Infosys' clients aren't too happy about all of this, another question that's begging to asked is this one: Do those clients have grounds to file any kind of lawsuit against Infosys? I posed the question to Mendelsohn, and he said it's something the clients could pursue:

One of the things that comes out in any lawsuit, in order to have a direct claim, there's got to be some form of damages. I'm not sure that there would be any from the direct violation of using illegal aliens. What I would be concerned about if I was being asked for advice by one of the clients is how their company was being charged by Infosys. If you're paying a rate for certain employees, and they're not legal employees and you're overpaying for their work, there could be a breach of contract claim, or a possible fraud claim. So I'd be looking at it from the standpoint of whether I was being charged correctly.

I also asked Mendelsohn whether a client company would have grounds to sue Infosys from the standpoint of damage to its reputation. In his response, he referred to Wal-Mart, an Infosys client that the New York Times reported had been contacted by federal investigators seeking information about its Infosys contracts:

That gets back to what I was saying about damages. If a company could show that it has incurred some form of damages, even if it's a damage of reputation, then that could support a claim. But I'm not sure that anybody's in that situation. It comes down to whether they have a claim against Infosys for putting them in this posture. Technically, legally, yes. Could it survive? I'm just not sure, because I don't know what the damages would be. I certainly don't think it helps anybody's reputation. From Wal-Mart's standpoint, they've already had some bad publicity about mistreating women employees, not treating females like they do males; and issues a few years ago about having illegal aliens as janitors. And now it's coming out that they most likely had illegal aliens from India working for them. I don't think that helps, but I'm not sure you could quantify that as any real damages to Wal-Mart, either. So do they have a possible claim? Yes. Do they have a real claim where they could recover something in court? I'm not sure.

What we do know is that Infosys' U.S. client list includes a lot of extremely high-profile companies that certainly have the wherewithal to take legal action. A cursory Google search yielded a list of Infosys clients that have a lot of clout in a broad range of industries. Here are some I found, in no particular order:

 

  • Johnson Controls
  • Lowes Companies
  • Sun Trust Bank
  • Xilinx
  • Boeing
  • Kraft Foods
  • MoneyGram International
  • City of Orlando
  • Career Education Corp.
  • The Capital Group Companies
  • Microsoft
  • Cummins Inc.
  • Citigroup
  • Baker Hughes
  • LexisNexis
  • Proctor & Gamble
  • Pfizer
  • Emerson
  • Novartis Consumer Health
  • Juniper Networks
  • Exterran
  • Mercy Health Plans
  • Kids Headquarters

 

As I look down this list, I'm reminded of the recent comments of Robert O. Blake, assistant secretary for South and Central Asian affairs in the U.S. State Department, who was asked about the visa fraud allegations against Infosys and what their impact will be on trade relations between India and the United States. As I reported in my post, "Pain Ahead for Infosys, Other Indian IT Service Providers," Blake had this to say:

That will be, I think, a sort of momentary blip. Infosys itself is obviously a very well-known company and will continue to be a very important partner for a wide range of American companies.

This was my response:

I'm not so sure. I have to wonder if Blake is familiar with the extent of the allegations against Infosys, and of the U.S. government's criminal investigation of the company. Infosys' U.S. clients are almost certainly already getting antsy about the notion of illegal employees working on their premises. If Infosys is found to be guilty of widespread criminal activity in this country, it's difficult to imagine that the company would be seen as anything other than toxic.

The more I think about it, the more certain of that I am. Regardless of whether any of Infosys' clients go so far as to take legal action against the company, at the very least there will be many that will want to distance themselves as far away from Infosys as they can, as soon as they can. Anyone who has followed this case closely and is aware of the evidence against Infosys could hardly blame them.



Add Comment      Leave a comment on this blog post
Jun 27, 2011 1:32 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Jobs4US

I've even seen local US-located  jobs in Windows system support and desktop support advertised to Indians on visas in these portals. Like, we don't have Windows and desktop support people looking for work? Give me a break.

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Jun 27, 2011 2:08 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Jobs4US

I checked couple of links and found the job location as outside the US. How does it matter anyway if it is not in the US!

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Jun 27, 2011 2:10 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Dolores

you might have also seen justin bieber wrestling with Obama is baseball field but where is the link to such posting or ads?

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Jun 27, 2011 2:27 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Sam

Nobody cares any more what the pro-Indian apologists have to say. The damage they've done to America is obvious for everyone to see. We aren't lbuying it. Indians and their supporters have worn out their welcome. Doubless they will be boo-hooing about racism as we load them onto planes.

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Jun 27, 2011 2:35 AM sam sam  says: in response to Dolores

You forget to say 'WE' = Dolores.

As I already told that everyone has an opinion but not necessary if that is a fact or not. You can always say what you think or what you dream but it is no where close to what others are doing and what American govt is planning to do. 

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Jun 27, 2011 2:44 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to sam

I don't think you'll like what the American government is preparing to do. The damage from the job theft is now obvious, and an emergency. The last decade tells a tale about global labor arbitrage. While you were bragging, some of us were getting the ear of our government. Pack your bags; we'll help you carry them to the cab.

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Jun 27, 2011 2:50 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Dolores

I am sure even you dont know what American govt is planning to do and on regarding my bags then dont worry I dont need to move anywhere irrespective of any decision taken by American govt.

Just in case if you lost your job to an Indian or if they dont give you sufficient tips when you serve them then let us know, may be we can help you before American govt!

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Jun 27, 2011 3:05 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Sam

You guys talk big but we know you're "small." Please don't make me explain this in a family publication.

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Jun 27, 2011 3:13 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Dolores

again WE = Dolores. I know the truth is bitter and hence you cannot are unable to ease your frustation in a family publication.

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Jun 27, 2011 4:17 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Sam

This line of discussion, from both sides, is not productive.  Please take the personal insults offline or to some other forum.

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Jun 27, 2011 4:22 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to R. Lawson

Ok Lawson. Dolores lets come to some other forum if you want to discuss further.

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Jun 27, 2011 5:27 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawson

You do free speech your way, I'll do it mine. Besides, I didn't start it. I never start it.

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Jun 27, 2011 6:00 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Dolores

You're welcome to engage in personal insults (free speech if you want to call it that) - however it will only harm the case you are trying to make.

Probably the only thing keeping Don or this website from censoring these types of posts are that it would be a full-time job.  There's no guarantee they won't simply turn off comments when things get out of hand and then we won't have a forum for our free speech.

Also, I would point out that most people will go to some other site when the bickering begins instead of weeding through the insulting comments.  If you want to spread your ideas more broadly this is self-defeating. 

I agree with much of what you say.  You could get more people to agree with you if you presented your case in a better light.

Out of a courtesy to others, please be civil.  You have a right to be uncivil, I would just hope that you didn't exercise it. 

This is a privately owned website.  They have a right to simply censor us or turn off comments.  I hope they don't exercise that right either, because despite our occasional tiffs and unsavory comments I think this is a good forum for discussing difficult and complex issues.

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Jun 27, 2011 6:12 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawson

The issues will not be decided here. We need to take it to our elected representatives and to the Department of Justice. You know who's been taking their wish list to our elected representatives for years now? H-1Bs, that's who. Right now there are hundreds of jobs, located in America, that are not being advertised where American job candidates will be likely to see them. And if an American stumbles upon one and applies, guess what happens to his or her application? We happen to be in a jobs crisis in America - nothing else will save our nation except to get our people back to work. Nothing else. Instead, we've been consistantly insulted and passed over in our own nation for the last decade. Please direct your lectures to the opportunists and the shills. Remember all the nasty things it used to be ok to say about women or minorities? For the past decade it's been ok to defame American workers, just as unfairly and untruthfully. We need to fight back every way we legally can, if we want a future for ourselves and our kids.

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Jun 27, 2011 6:47 AM R. Lawsom R. Lawsom  says: in response to Dolores

"We need to fight back every way we legally can, if we want a future for ourselves and our kids."

I agree that we need to fight back - and fight back hard.  However, there are many legal ways of fighting that are also not smart ways of fighting.  I know for a fact that our opponents rather enjoy some of those fighting back because they discredit our cause.

A great example of this is Tunnel Rat's website.  The corporate lobbyists have told me they are just giddy about his website and forward links every chance they get - painting us all as crazies.

If they ever protest that website, it is really just to call attention to it.  The last thing they want is for it to come down.  It's priceless to them.

Let's be smart in how we frame this issue.  Our opponents have plenty of ammunition, money, and influence.  Let's not give them more.

"We need to take it to our elected representatives and to the Department of Justice. "

I agree. 

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Jun 27, 2011 6:58 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawsom

I'm not so sure that Tunnel Rat didn't serve an important purpose. As in "good cop bad cop" - he sure did get people talking, didn't he? It was easier to ignore us, which is pretty much what happened to American IT folks over the last 10 years. In cyberspace I guess no one can hear you scream. When we were polite, what happened? We lost millions of jobs, even when other professions prospered. But now everyone is hurting, everyone sees the problem, and I think people are finally mad enough to quit ignoring their unemployed neighbor. And maybe quit blaming him for his joblessness now that the wolf is at their door too.

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Jun 27, 2011 7:31 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Dolores

"When we were polite, what happened?"

I've been involved with this issue over a decade.  I can't remember us ever being especially polite

I do remember many IT professionals acting AFRAID to take a stand.  Many IT professionals were rather gullible in believing the shortage shouting and rather arrogant - believing they would never be impacted because they were just too good.

IT professionals were silent about globalization, free trade, and the decline of manufacturing until it started impacting them.  Nurses were silent about IT professionals losing jobs to India and H-1b visas until it impacted them.  Teachers have been quiet about nurses losing their jobs, until it impacted them.

For a country with freedom of speech, press, and expression we are remarkably quiet about the destruction of the middle class and have sat quietly while industry after industry falls.  Many of the remaining IT professionals are still silent - hoping that this is all a bad dream and through some stroke of luck it won't impact them.

We have been brainwashed into thinking that any speech that is against any form of immigration is in some way insensitive to immigrants and because of our past misdeeds in regards to race relations perhaps our generation deserves to be punished - and we should just remain silent to globalization, guest worker programs, and offshore outsourcing in fear of being labeled protectionist, xenophobic, or downright racist.

I for one don't believe in collective punishment.  We can acknowledge past mistakes while not being intimidated into supporting things that are not in our economic interests.  Our government is elected to represent us - the plurality of this country.  And I for one won't be apologizing to anyone for wanting them to represent our common interests instead of the special interests of corporations, trade partners, immigration attorneys, and foreign workers - who have their own governments that should answer to them. 

That isn't to say that I believe we should allow foreign workers to be exploited or harmed.  I believe that we have unique American values that should cause us to oppose corporate sponsorship of foreign workers - because we support a sense of fair play and freedom. 

It wasn't long ago that most people "owed their soul to the company store" - getting paid with money only good at the company store and not enough to survive or pay off their debts the the company store - effectively making them slaves.  We need to oppose all forms of corporate servitude including the H-1b visa.

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Jun 27, 2011 7:55 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawson

Well, we used to be too scared to be very impolite. I remember too, the ones (mostly over on slashdot) who would respond something like, "I'm not worried about the H-1Bs cuz I'm so @#$%^&*'ing GOOD, it won't affect me." Where are they now? I can guess.

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Jun 27, 2011 8:01 AM sam sam  says: in response to R. Lawson

I wonder if everyone is agreeing to each other then what are we discussing/debating over here! Or if everyone is taught what to speak and what not to speak then why so many faces/ IDs are involved, instead let us appoint a leader and each one us nod their head in agreement.

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Jun 27, 2011 8:09 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Dolores

I m still unable to figure out what you mean by WE, who all are you representing while commenting here? which community/group/ race/ nation/ organization has appointed you as their spokesperson? that is more important to know before interpreting your statements.

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Jun 27, 2011 8:15 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to R. Lawson

Thank you, Roy. The voice of reason and decency will prevail, and it will be what ultimately solves our problems. It takes a great deal of courage to do what you've done in a forum like this. It takes zero courage to exchange insults, let alone promote or even simply excuse hatefulness. I'm sure it's obvious to everyone who reads this blog regularly that we are loathe to censor or remove reader comments, no matter how distasteful we might find them. It should also be obvious that I'm fairly tolerant of attacks and insults that are directed at me. But I am far less tolerant of having readers use this forum as a battlefield on which to hurl insults at each other. I am confident that Roy isn't the only reader who doesn't want to have to maneuver through all of that garbage to gain worthwhile insights from other readers on the topic at hand. So I would ask that readers take Roy's advice-feel free to express your views, but take the one-on-one mudslinging elsewhere.

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Jun 27, 2011 8:44 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to sam

"I wonder if everyone is agreeing to each other then what are we discussing/debating over here! . . . instead let us appoint a leader and each one us nod their head in agreement."

Just for the record, I'm not asking anyone to censor their views in any way.  I'm just asking that we be civil.  I'm also not asking that I or anyone else be appointed "leader" or that we all nod our heads in agreement even if we don't agree.

Disagreement and thoughtful debate is healthy.  I hope to see vigorous (but respectful) debate. 

I'm just "another guy" with a viewpoint and I'd like to express it in an open and respectful forum.  I'll vigorously debate anyone who wants me to so long as we can at least try to stay out of the mud.  I know it's tough because we all have strong emotions on this issue - but we should at least make an effort. 

I'm guilty of being in the mud myself at times so not singling anyone out.  It's something I've had to work on myself.

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Jun 27, 2011 9:01 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Dolores

Preaching to the choir.  I've even seen job ads from India for English, Flute, and Montessori teachers, massage therapists, and urban transportation engineers, and wouldn't be surprised to escorts with Java ads...  Enough with my rant, down to business.

There are literally tens of thousands of USA tech jobs that are exclusively advertised for India's visa hopefuls.

By design, unscrupulous employers go through technical hoops to intentionally hide these jobs from US job seekers - BUT  we've cracked the code and expose this hidden job market for US jobs

We've aggregated job ads from multiple India job sites that target multiple visa types and frequently post new USA jobs on 

www.brightfuturejobs.com  

and

twitter.com/usjobsoffshored

Americans - YOU are Eligible to Apply for these JOBS!!!

Please APPLY, FREQUENTLY.  

****Contact brightfuturejobs.com to learn more about this and register for an upcoming conference call with the US Department of Justice. *****

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Jun 27, 2011 9:06 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Sam

These B-1 visa jobs are located in the United States.  The unscrupulous employer (or recruiting agency) ONLY want to hire visa workers for these USA jobs and hide these jobs from Americans by only advertising the positions in India.... Check the ads you'll see ONSITE, Immediate FLY, US B-1, B1/B2 advertised - this means they are USA jobs - and these jobs DO NOT comply with US law.  

Please apply to jobs that you're qualified for.  Sometimes these jobs include the US city, sometimes they don't and we will try our best to dig into their locations.

American citizens are eligible to apply for these jobs.  Please apply - frequently for positions you're qualified for - and know the DOJ has your back and is there to intervene.  Contact brightfuturejobs.com to get details on their upcoming conference call with the DOJ to learn more. 

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Jun 27, 2011 9:16 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to sam

WE = Highly Qualified American Tech Workers sick and tired bribed politicians, greedy billionaires and corrupt employers who passed Visa Laws that force Americans to train our replacements.

We will no longer accept corporate visa fraud and abuse that caused us to lose our jobs, homes, health insurance, life savings, and much more.

We refuse to roll over and play dead while Washington DC fiddles with Immigration law to offshore our jobs.  

We are fighting to end segregated employment practices that discriminate against employees by citizenship and age and give American citizens a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country.

Learn More - check Dan Rather Reports "No Thanks For Everything"   

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Jun 27, 2011 9:18 AM Please remove this Troll's Comments Please remove this Troll's Comments  says: in response to Sam

Don, please remove this troll's offensive comments from this blog. They add no value to the conversation.

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Jun 27, 2011 9:28 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to Please remove this Troll's Comments

Well, I fully agree that this offensive person is adding no value to the conversation, and I addressed the situation in my response to Roy. But if I remove his offensive comments that add no value to the conversation, what about all the other offensive comments that add no value to the conversation?

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Jun 27, 2011 9:30 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Please remove this Troll's Comments

its clearly who is being troll. That is what I am again and again saying, if its a debate then lets respect everyone's opinion, if not then make it clear. Why is it hard for so many emotional participants in this forum to understand why something is happening today, they just want to discuss on the ideal future!

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Jun 27, 2011 9:35 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don if the conversation is about how to stop immigration then yes I agree that I am not adding any value. But if it is why at the first place immigration is happening then you might need to read my statements again ( including your previous blogs). I am okay with getting banned from this forum but my problem is as long as I am seeing others stating their opinion as facts and me allowed to speak then definitely I will speak.

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Jun 27, 2011 10:23 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to Sam

"if the conversation is about how to stop immigration then yes I agree that I am not adding any value."

I've lost track of what the conversation is about because we got side-tracked.  If you ask me what I think the debate is about, it isn't that we "stop immigration".

I support immigration in sustainable numbers - and I've expressed my opinion on what "sustainable" is.  As a reminder, I said 25% of net job growth last fiscal year, and also accounting for unusually high levels of unemployment.  So during high growth years I would expand immigration and when we lose jobs I would restrict immigration.  That details of that idea could be refined, but at a high level I think the concept and spirit of it is sound. 

My argument is also in favor of permanent immigration and in opposition of corporate sponsored immigration.  I want to change the motivations of immigration from profit to that of building a stronger nation   I don't think we should be creating a nationalized temporary staffing agency like the H-1b aims to do, and I disagree with Alan Greenspan's explicit goal of using immigration for the purpose of labor arbitrage (driving down wages).  We should instead support families, workers, and a vibrant/expanding middle class. 

If there is any specific comment you said, prior to the diversion, that I disagree with it is this: "there is no such thing called 'American Job' it can be a 'job in Amercia'"

I simply disagree with the notion of free movement of labor or any right to labor with countries that don't have similar enough systems of government.  I agree with free movement of labor between EU nations and movement of labor between each of the states in the United States.  The reason is that we common labor laws, currency, environmental rights, human rights, and economic systems.  Free trade works well in situations like that.

India simply isn't a first-world nation when it comes to labor rights, human rights, environmental protections, education, monetary policy, and many other factors.  Please don't take that as a personal insult - it is just a fact.  India needs to get their act together if they ever want any chance at getting what they are asking for. 

I know you guys want to be a respected nation - and you have a rich history and should be respected.  Keep working at it.  Root out corruption and move your nation forward and perhaps one day it will be a very different dynamic.  Until then I simply don't agree that anyone has a right to come here and compete for any job they wish.

Make a deal.  If India votes on allowing free flows of labor between India and Pakistan, I'll come out and support free flows of labor between India and the United States.  I know that hell will freeze over first, so that's a pretty easy offer to make.

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Jun 27, 2011 10:30 AM Ram Ram  says:

How about the employees themselves? Aren't they as an adult responsible for their visa applications? I can't believe the employees tend to stay ignorant!!

www.livemint.com/2011/06/24004141/Interrogation-handcuffs-and-a.html?d=1

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Jun 27, 2011 10:56 AM Su Su  says: in response to R. Lawson

"India simply isn't a first-world nation when it comes to labor rights, human rights, environmental protections, education, monetary policy, and many other factors.  Please don't take that as a personal insult - it is just a fact.  India needs to get their act together if they ever want any chance at getting what they are asking for. "

Yes... so someone has to work hard so that US doen't become like India. Remember US was 'discovered' in the process of search for India. There were times in history when everyone wanted to be in India. If you keep protecting you your useless, good for nothings (doesn't matter if you "simply disagree" or not or how much Don keep on "fully agree"ing with the same) then a much more bigger problem is waiting ahead. As I said earlier, US is working hard so that it doesn't happen.

Every so called "first-world nation" always had to compete with "others" and it happened through out history. Your behavior is typically the one who has lots of family fortune and wants to protect that for eternity - that never happened... it won't happen ..all you can do is give opinions which will be strictly personal and good for nothing. At most only a single generation of spoiled brat survives with family fortune.

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Jun 27, 2011 10:58 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Ram

There's plenty of guilt to go around. Yes, the companies are in cahoots with Infosys. Yes, the employees who will do anything to get an American job are also guilty. Just lurk on www.immigrationvoice.org and you'll get an idea of the craven magnitude of collusion between all parties.

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Jun 27, 2011 11:12 AM Su Su  says: in response to R. Lawson

"a vibrant/expanding middle class" ..

and what about who are lazy stupid good for nothing? You want to protect them also right?

And then how will you judge who is what?

It doesn't matter how much you "simply disagree" and Don "fully agree" to that, nothing is going to change by that. So keep these things coming. Let old Don keep on writing and you follow with your 6th standard essays.

The thing is.... no one gives a damn either on this ... "Until then I simply don't agree that anyone has a right to come here and compete for any job they wish." ....

So discussion ends here ...let followers here enjoy their time here in discussion forum and people like Sam don't waste your time doing this whole day (for some its their full/part time job) and grow up.

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Jun 27, 2011 11:13 AM Patricia Patricia  says:

Hi Don

I am not sure whether you are aware that there are exceptions to the B1 visa requirements .Check this blog posting:

"Will The Infosys Subpoena Lead to Indictment...?"

xrecruiters.blogspot.com/

Why dont you ask Mendelsohn whether the people Palmer accuses of being "illegal" were indeed allowed to work ie their status was  as if they were under H1.

If they came under normal B1 status...hmm ..Infosys could be in for a lot of embarrassment!

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Jun 27, 2011 11:58 AM Sam Sam  says: in response to Dolores

"Yes, the employees who will do anything to get an American job are also guilty."

there is no such thing called 'American Job' it can be a 'job in Amercia'

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Jun 27, 2011 12:53 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says:

My view is that they deserve to share some culpability, however I doubt that they will.  If there was fraud on their behalf (such as the client knowingly writing letters that wrongfully depict the reasons a person is traveling to this country) that will probably be where they get dragged into this. 

I believe that we need transparency not only with the direct sponsors, but in the event of body shops we need to know what company these workers are actually working for.  Currently we have companies that appear to hire very few foreign workers when in fact they are replacing their workers with foreign guest workers through middle-men like Infosys.  They get to appear as if they are great corporate citizens when in fact they aren't.

The biggest problem for Infosys clients probably won't be legal action, but projects that get interrupted.  There could be many breach of contract lawsuits and years of litigation because of this.  Offshoring won't look like such an affordable deal to many companies after this unravels.

By far the biggest losers will be the corporations who directly violate the laws.  Recent reports indicate that the violations are widespread and include American companies.  We should go wherever the evidence leads and prosecute any company - American or otherwise - caught in immigration fraud.

Until recently our government turned a blind eye to this. If we ever want a system that works, we need this new trend to continue and expand.

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Jun 27, 2011 12:59 PM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says:

B-1 Visa Abuse Epidemic, Infosys not alone

Employers concerned about B1 visa abuse must confirm the visa status of Infosys and other labor contractors and their subcontractors.  

Looks like some of the larger visa providers advertise their jobs through smaller recruiters.

Here are several recent B-1 visa job ads, they are just a few of thousands of B-1 visa job ads.

Process Specialist / SME - Payroll - responsible for a small team of B1 and B2 at the discretion of the Team Leader Develop reporting skills. 

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=7d679533d16dc26d&;from=rss&rtk=1638p9pe714116tn&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoTf16WWzFSACaQKF0XXOLMCmnkkzgDNfmrXLLGSJnOKjIh7BGPZcNb52pQaNau5vPQ&rd=b1 b2 Jobs

SAP MM PP :Chennai, Tamil Nadu - GAVS Technologies 

Skills * Should have experience on SAP MM PP (Functional...Must have US B1 visa Job Location :Chennai Please send us profiles immediately with the...From iitjobs - 24 Jun 2011 1...11:58 PM

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=746ac5641900e743&;from=rss&rtk=16388nd4m142h3qq&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=Indeed.co.in

Sr.Software Engineer Candidates with a B1/B2 visa will be given preference - - analytical skills are welcomed Good problem-solving and debugging skills.Candidates with a B1/B2 visa will be given preference Should have good communication .11:18 PM

www.recruit.net/directjob.html?query=b1visa&location=&jobtitle=.NetDeveloperwithFlex+Experience&region=ind&s=860&u=http%2Fwww.fundoodatajobs.com%2Fjobs-vacancies-recruitments-in%2F.net-developer-with-flex-experience%2F126153.html&jobref=1EEEDD7C47D5E553

.Net Developer with Flex Experience - Candidates with a B1/B2 visa will be given preference - Candidates willing to take challenge with good analytical skills are welcomed.11:18 PM www.recruit.net/directjob.html?query=b1visa&location=&jobtitle=.NetTech+Lead&region=ind&s=860&u=http%2Fwww.fundoodatajobs.com%2Fjobs-vacancies-recruitments-in%2F.net-tech-lead%2F126154.html&jobref=053DE3D2A7D1E39F

Expense Analyst Job comShould have valid Passport, preferably with a US B1/B2 visa Requirements:3 to 4 years experience in the related field

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=0e5568def222069d&;from=rss&rtk=1638p9pe714116tn&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoTf16WWzFSACaQKF0XXOLMCmnkkzgDNfmrXLLGSJnOKjIh7BGPZcNb52pQaNau5vPQ&rd=b1 b2 Jobs | Indeed.co.in

SAP FICO Must have US B1 visa :GAVS Technologies

- Desired Candidate Profile * Should have experience in SAP FICO * Must have US B1 visa Chennai jobs Jun 24, 2011

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=78b7afe618eb5332&;from=rss&rtk=1638t9l8f14106i9&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=Indeed.co.in

Project Lead--C++ required  Reply

Jun 27, 2011 12:59 PM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says:
Candidate with B1 Visa preffered.

- AgreeYa - Your day to day responsibilities will include:. Designing and building software products for multiple Jun 23, 2011

jobviewtrack.com/en-in/job/bd5d2ff58667999e51b2478395a3b08d.html

Urgent opening for System Administrator with valid B1 Visa!- Infinite Computing Systems Pvt.Ltd.- -Administrator with valid B1 Visa.The candidate must be willing to join us in 15 days time.Candidates who do not have a valid B1/B2 visa &amp cannot join in 15

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=fb23db50d90b1755&;from=rss&rtk=1638t9l8f14106i9&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

LAB View - Sr.Engineer / Lead Engineer - with B1 ViSA - Onsite &Pune

- Company Growel Softech Ltd Description Greeting!Co has been a pioneer in automation control for more than 30 years.Co Process Solutions and the oth...Jun 23, 2011

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=a3009748cc97f317&;from=rss&rtk=1638p9pe714116tn&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoTf16WWzFSACaQKF0XXOLMCmnkkzgDNfmrXLLGSJnOKjIh7BGPZcNb52pQaNau5vPQ&rd=

Onsite opportunity to US for datastage lead position - RJT Compuquest -  valid B1 visa holders for an onsite opportunity to USA

Required- Skills:- Datastage, ETL, SSR/SSIS Experience:- 5-10Yrs Work Location:- Noida Visa:- B1...From Naukri.com - Jun 22, 2011

www.jobisjob.co.in/mumbai/survik-software-limited/needs-b1-visa-c-developer-/job-offer-vuy6pdfmbtg737xdxgp6imo3leJobisjob - B1 Visa jobs

Needs B1 visa (C# developer)

- Company Survik Software Limited Survik Software Limited was established in 1994 and is headquartered in...Pune (India) with branch off...Jun 22, 2011

www.jobisjob.co.in/mumbai/survik-software-limited/needs-b1-visa-c-developer-/job-offer-vuy6pdfmbtg737xdxgp6imo3le

IMMEDIATE JOINING_Dot Net_Onsite Req_US B1 Visa Must

- Company SphereGen Location Pune Description With an increased focus on building customer relationships and a valuable consumer franchise, SphereGen is committed to...Jun 22, 2011

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=acd60b4a6993cd41&;from=rss&rtk=1638t9l8f14106i9&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

urgent looking vmware professionals //Having B1 - VISA// immediate fly, - Agreeya This is shiva from agreeya solutions .we are urgently looking for Existing B1 visa is mandatory , Strong expirence in VMWARE VMWARE Certified JD Will be...From Jobsindia.com -Jun 21, 2011

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=cc875ff0333e70a3&;from=rss&rtk=16361ip6s14113bi&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 1:04 AM pointninenine pointninenine  says: in response to Ram

Dear Ram,

Many adults do not fully appreciate the immigration laws of their own country, let alone a foreign one. Judging by your name, I assume you are from southeast asia. Are you familiar with the laws of your country?

And it's not like the employees of IT companies travel only to the US and need to be familiar with thier immigration laws. So as per your allegation, the employees need to be familiar with complex laws of multiple countries..sorry, not feasible.

Warm Regards

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 1:55 AM jobs4US jobs4US  says:

A few of the new B-1 visa jobs posted today:

Process Specialist / SME - Payroll - Manage team of B1 and B2

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=817eb1e935810047&;from=rss&rtk=163bfmbvf140h559&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

SAP MM PP : GAVS Must Have B1 Visa

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=817eb1e935810047&;from=rss&rtk=163bfmbvf140h559&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

Idha Software SAP MM Consultant with #B1 Visa

jobviewtrack.com/en-in/job/be7584169e9c2b558d56b89d48224a3f.html

Vmware professionals having B1 - VISA//US/H1-B sponsorship - Agreeya

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=2c89fa47d8539ce1&;from=rss&rtk=162p3f4gu141g4vl&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

B1 Visa Mandatory SAP Professionals @ - Enterprise IT Solution - Chennai, Tamil Nadu

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=c644f7be7c702b08&;from=rss&rtk=163aghcc6140g22e&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

IMMEDIATE JOINING_Dot Net_Onsite Req_US B1 Visa Must

www.jobisjob.co.in/pune/spheregen/immediate-joiningdot-netonsite-requs-b1-visa-must/job-offer-fr54co4pofeel7xdxgp6imo3le

urgent looking vmware professionals //Having B1 - VISA// immediate fly, - Agreeya

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=4dcce33d1b5e58ff&;from=rss&rtk=16361ip6s14113bi&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 3:33 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to jobs4US

On that first link - the description has changed.  It no longer mentions anything about "managing a team of B1 and B2" workers:

Process Specialist / SME - Payroll - Manage team of B1 and B2

www.indeed.co.in/rc/clk?jk=817eb1e935810047&;from=rss&rtk=163bfmbvf140h559&qd=RnZhMybXSk4M3QtTVGXWoSq6tEsVPtHu6Ae2PpnwMFsiZ0TapIQXJd-rf6qpLGps&rd=

I want to see what that is all about.  It's screwed up to break the law.  It's more screwed up to break the law, while managing a team of people also breaking the law.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 4:58 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy, job postings asking for B1 visa doesn't mean it is the job taken from US.

Below is my understanding (I haven't been on B1 in my life so I may be wrong on certain things)

In general if a person applies for B1 visa through any company they use to get max 10yrs muti-entry (not every one gets 10yrs) visa.

Once the candidate has B1 stamping they don't have to go for consulate for stamping again (which is always risk of not getting approved), if they get those kind of people into their company it is easy for them to send to US for different kind of tasks (meetings, training etc.,).

If they don't get a resource with B1/B2, they have to apply one for existing resource (which may or may not  work out and involves considerable amount of time and money). To my knowledge no matter what, those openings won't come to US. Simple reason is the project would be outsourced by a US company to reduce the cost and they need someone there (cheaper for local company...but cost is increasing there too...also if you have decent work experience then you won't work for mid size company like GAVS ) to work on it.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 5:40 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

Ranga, I can't really tell what their intentions are.  However this description was a big red flag: "Manage team of B1 and B2"

So they aren't software engineers or consultants, they are simply warm bodies with either a B1 and B2.  That's how I read that.  The only reason I can imagine needing a manager of the "team of b1 or b2" would be onsite work.

Is that where we are at in our profession?  Our value or job function can be described using our immigration or citizenship status? 

Body shop: "Hello India, I have a project of some kind - don't worry about the details - can you send me a B1, B2, or perhaps an H1?"

Manager: "What type of experience do they need?"

Body shop: "B1, B2, or H1"

Manager: "I've got the best developer in all of India right here.  No B1, B2, of H1.  Will he do?"

Body shop: "No, he is under-qualified."

Manager: "I've found someone off the street.  We are showing him how to use a mouse right now.  He has a B1"

Body shop: "Perfect - send him down!"

That may have sounded funny, but when I read job descriptions that say things like "Manage team of B1 and B2" I'm not sure I'm too far off the mark there.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 6:58 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

I doubt it could be tweaking of requirements by non technical person  with no knowledge of different immigration status. I don't think we should think beyond this because of the wordings they had put clearly shows what it stands for.

Even it could be trap for people who has B1 & B2 with some money, where fraudulent company (not sure we can call it as company) try to gain out of those ads.

Unless those ads are of genuine company in reasonable website we don't have to give too much value/credit by taking those as real case to fight. We can very much focus and real issues. To my knowledge any person with basic sense of good/bad job postings won't apply to those kind of shady job postings.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 7:13 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to who knows

"Even it could be trap for people who has B1 & B2 with some money, where fraudulent company (not sure we can call it as company) try to gain out of those ads."

Interesting, so not only are our immigration programs creating some form of corporate servitude and labor arbitrage here, but they are also creating criminal organizations and earning them untold millions defrauding Indian workers.

Yet another reason we need to remove the corporate middle-man from the equation.  They aren't trustworthy.  Even the bigger players we once considered trustworthy, like Infosys, aren't trustworthy.

The fraud in India against workers hasn't really entered into our equation here because we don't have much information on it - other than knowledge that it exists but to what extend I have no idea.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 7:52 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to R. Lawson

Yes, the result of guestworker visas plus global labor arbitrage = human trafficking plus discrimination against local workers. Q.E.D.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 8:20 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to R. Lawson

Roy, I didn't intent to say that companies like Infosys is defrauding (if that is what you are concluding). What I mean (just an assumption from the job posting text) is any person with defrauding intent can post those opening as there is no validation on who post and what is their credibility. All they would need is a credit card and by paying $30/month you can lure many innocent people.

It is like defrauding done by Madoff, no way we can conclude it is the way whole industry works.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 10:46 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

I am not going into is it right or wrong but I am not sure you are aware of this, there is no legal requirement to prove that there is no Citizen available to do the job that was given to people on work visa (H1, L1, L2, B1 in certain cases).

But if the same job opening is given for a person for whom a company sponsor(s) permanent residence visa then company has to prove they can't find any citizen who is willing to , available and qualified to do the job.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 10:59 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to pointninenine

I don't think just by saying it is complex I don't want to understand but I will participate in the fraud. When you fill the form for B1 visa (or any visa for that matter) you have to answer all the questions by you (other than some part on company details for which companies has to provide).  So, if you fill in any false information you are part of the fraud and liable to legal actions.

If you can't handle that complex laws better say that to your company and never apply for any visas.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 11:48 AM Visa Profit Margins Visa Profit Margins  says:

www.newh1.com/news_details.php?id=180&;title=Misuse%20of%20US%20visas%20may%20be%20widespread

Misuse of US Visas May Be Widespread

A report published on Monday by CLSA Asia-Pacific Markets showed that a firm's ability to send workers to the US on visas directly affects its profitability. The report estimates that if a firm sends an Indian employee, its profit margin is 39.1%, while if it hires a local, it is 25.3% (considering that the utilization level is at 75%).

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 11:52 AM CLSA India IT Services Industry Research Rpt CLSA India IT Services Industry Research Rpt  says:

Here is the link to the CLSA India IT Services Research Report, mentioned in the post above. Appears to be published yesterday.

online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/477617892.pdf

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 12:04 PM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to CLSA India IT Services Industry Research Rpt

No, it was published on June 20. I wrote about it in my post "Pain Ahead for Infosys, Other Indian IT Service Providers" last week.

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 12:29 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Don Tennant

Yeah, I saw it before too. Bad news for Nasscom: the proper purpose of US guestworker visas is not to provide any guaranteed profit margin to Indian companies. Visas weren't supposed to profit Indian companies at all.  It's not appropriate for India to act as if they have some right to a given business climate within America, at the expense of American workers. The US doesn't promise American companies an easy positive balance sheet, so why do Indian companies feel entitled?

Reply
Jun 28, 2011 12:44 PM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to CLSA India IT Services Industry Research Rpt

The CSLA report means we are winning some key battles and it clearly disputes claims that more H-1b visas reduce offshore outsourcing. 

CSLA: "How much is the visa issue hurting? Newsflow on the visa front continues to be

negative across countries with rejection rates in US currently running at almost

40%, up from 5%, 18 months back. We see the visa issue fundamentally altering

the business model for Indian techs with its operational (inability to staff projects

on time) as well as commercial (higher visa/subcontracting costs) impact"

The model is changing in a way that these companies are forced to become more expensive.  The result is that more American jobs will be created directly because they will be forced to hire American workers because they have fewer visas, and that more American jobs will be created indirectly.  Because the cost to do business in India will rise, many American firms will be more attractive options and those firms will be chosen instead of offshore firms.

I wouldn't call the war over or the field level, but the field is more level now than it was even a year ago.  So things aren't hopeless.  Keep up the good fight.

Reply
Jul 8, 2011 6:02 AM askwhy askwhy  says: in response to R. Lawson

R. Lawson said: "Interesting, so not only are our immigration programs creating some form of corporate servitude and labor arbitrage here, but they are also creating criminal organizations and earning them untold millions defrauding Indian workers."

Why wouldn't ? Nobody should be surprised that each loophole in the law, weakness in monitoring, hesitation in enforcement or lack of will in prosecution will be matched by fertile minds finding ways to capitalize on the failure. Monitoring, enforcement and prosecution must be superior and untainted. India itself is learning this the hard way. For a quick summary try truthaboutindiacorruption.org/

Some may say that corruption exists everywhere but do take a look, you might gain an insight into how it gets ingrained.

Reply
Apr 13, 2012 2:23 AM Anon Anon  says:

They should be held liable...starting with Lowe's! The corporate headquarters is roughly 60% contractors and, after a recent voluntary separation plan for internals, I expect that to rise. Infosys is one of Lowe's strategic partners and I have witnessed all of this and more on several IT projects there. Mooresville, NC is a small southern town but it is making accomodations (i.e., Indian restaurants and stores) to accomodate the sudden influx of Infosys resources to the area. The resources often live together and on the Lowe's campus, they are housed together in a warehouse or community cubicles.  Internal morale is at an all time low and the foreign Infosys resources are coming in droves every Tuesday and Thursday at Lowe's.

Reply
Apr 23, 2012 2:11 AM Guna Guna  says:

It's a known fact in Inida to send employees on Business Visa and make them work and employees have no say on the issue unless he/she wants to be fired from the job. It's not right that people are craving for a US job. May be some but not many people crave for a 2 month US job on B-1 visas. The employers should be punished so that it won't be repeated next time.

The guy who stood against this issue is great, a real man.

Reply
Sep 27, 2012 1:48 AM sjeemahmed sjeemahmed  says:
Job Portals became out standing platform on internet for performing sourcing now a days mostly employers as well as employee performing continuous activity there hiring and finding Jobs in Middle East Countries, Dubai, PAKISTAN, Etc is became easy after invention of job portals its became easy solution for both employee as well as employer. Posting Jobs and creating CV for applying on posted jobs posted by employer its just few step's away. Reply
Sep 19, 2013 4:22 PM Mary Mary  says: in response to R. Lawson
Roy to the comment: "I simply disagree with the notion of free movement of labor or any right to labor with countries that don't have similar enough systems of government. " Many of the highly qualified Indian's are the ones who made so many things simpler for you and helped improving an American's life in the past.. Its never an issue when great people from india make a difference to people here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_Americans So how fair is for you to make such a statement against a whole community of people to say they dont have a fair chance for a job if they are really the best at it.... I completely support mis-use of Visa but at the same time i think every human in this world should have a fair chance... Cause the best people may come from parts you never thought of like the remotest village in some un-known city... If we feel that we are losing jobs because of this I think that is unfair.. I doubt we will fear it if we are best at what we do... Cause we will always find a way out at least to start something our own... Reply
Aug 23, 2016 11:44 PM nikoohomes nikoohomes  says:
Great Blog... Reply

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