Deception-Detection Expert: Infosys Execs Fretting over Visa Woes

Don Tennant

An expert deception-detection analysis of the responses of Infosys executives to questions in its recent quarterly earnings call relating to changes in U.S. visa policies suggests that the executives are far more concerned about the ramifications on the company of visa-related issues than they have chosen to appear to date.


I have made reference in a couple of my posts to the fact that I am a partner in QVerity, a company that provides training and consulting services in the fields of deception detection, interviewing techniques and employee screening. Phil Houston, a founding partner of QVerity and the company's CEO, is a 25-year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency and the developer of a deception-detection methodology that's employed throughout the U.S. intelligence community. That methodology is now being used in the private sector to detect deception in a wide range of settings, including the corporate environment.


Houston has analyzed a transcript of the July 12 Infosys earnings call that I wrote about in my post, "Did Clients' Angst over Alleged Visa Fraud Hurt Infosys' Earnings?" This is the conclusion he drew:

Based on the behavioral analysis of responses by Infosys management to questions related to the ongoing visa issue, it appears that the company has been affected by changes in the visa process, and that those changes are the source of significant concern for Infosys management.

To give you an idea of how this works, here are the responses to three questions posed during the call, and Houston's identification and analysis of the deceptive behaviors associated with them that led him to draw that conclusion:

 

Question: There is definitely some evidence that there are increased obstacles for getting U.S. visas approved and I know NASSCOM is also trying to address this issue with the U.S. So, can you give us any update on how many additional U.S. visas you've been able to secure in the last month or during the June quarter, or any sort of general update on how that U.S. visa approval process is going for the company?

 

CEO Kris Gopalakrishnan: No, I cannot, unfortunately, give you those details. All I can say is that this quarter we grew. So, we are able to grow the business in this environment.

 


Deceptive behaviors: Refusal to answer; exclusionary qualifier; convincing statement (statement made to influence perception rather than to convey truthful information).

 

Behavioral insight: Based on the behaviors exhibited, this question clearly hits a nerve with the CEO. His refusal to provide the information, coupled with his effort to convince the questioner and others on the call that they should not be concerned about the visa issue because Infosys has been able to continue to grow its business, is significant. These behaviors, including the CEO's refusal to even address the question, suggest that this issue is a serious problem for Infosys and one that it has yet to solve. The CEO's refusal, combined with his use of the phrase "all I can say" to preface one of his statements, raises the question of what it is that he can't say. At a minimum, whatever he is not saying appears to be serious in his mind. Otherwise, why isn't he willing to share it with investors? If I were a shareholder, these behaviors would lead me to wonder if whatever the CEO feels he can't say will have a significant impact on the company's financial performance.

 

Question: Can you give us any outlook in the U.S. visa approval process, I mean to the extent that you agree that the approval process has become tougher, rejection rates are higher and information requests have been up and so on. I mean do you expect that to be resolved over the next several months or could this be an ongoing issue from what you can tell so far?

 

CFO V. Balakrishnan: NASSCOM, which is an industry body, has clearly talked about higher degree of rejection for the industry. They also talked about delays in getting visas for some of the companies. I think large companies like us who have credibility, we're able to get our visas. We have enough visas in the system. We also plan in advance and make sure we get visas on time, so that it does not hurt our business. So, we have not seen any material disruption on the visa front, which will affect our business now.

 

Deceptive behaviors: Convincing statements; exclusionary qualifiers.

 

Behavioral insight: It is interesting that the CFO, rather than the CEO, elects to tackle the follow-up question regarding the visa issue. The CFO exhibits deceptive behaviors similar to those of the CEO. Perhaps most significant is his qualified statement that there is no "material disruption on the visa front." What the CFO is really saying here is that the visa issue is causing a problem, however management appears reluctant to reveal the degree of disruption. Management's reluctance therefore indicates the problem is having a much greater impact than it's willing to disclose. The consistency and growing volume of deceptive indicators regarding the visa issue reinforces the behavioral insight that management has not shared the entire story here regarding the impact that changes in the visa process are having on Infosys' operations.

 

Question: So in your inventory of visas, you have enough of the right visas for the right types of skill sets, for that to not be a disruption anytime soon. Is that the way to look at it?

 

CFO V. Balakrishnan: Yes, we plan in advance. We make sure we have the visas for the right skill of people, so that it doesn't impact our business.

 

Deceptive behaviors: Failure to deny; convincing statements.

 

Behavioral insight: The questioner is attempting to pin down the CFO and have him commit to the position that the visa issue is not now and will not in the near term be a cause of disruption in the company's operations. Interestingly, instead of making a definitive statement that this issue is not causing and/or will not cause a disruption, the CFO seems to take advantage of the poorly worded question. The CFO simply responds, "Yes" to the question of whether this is "the way to look at it," which appears to be an opinion, as opposed to a definitive assertion. In addition, the CFO continues to try to persuade listeners that Infosys is unaffected by the visa issue with the statements, "We plan in advance" and "We make sure we have the visas for the right skill of people, so that it doesn't impact our business." Collectively, the volume of deceptive indicators observed in response to this series of questions regarding the visa issue likely reflects a significant level of underlying concern, and points to additional questions that shareholders should be asking. These include:

 

  • What impact has the increased visa rejection rate stemming from the U.S. government's clampdown had on Infosys' operations?
  • Has Infosys experienced any increase in processing or approval times for visa applications? If so, what impact has that had on the company's operations?
  • What changes has Infosys made in its visa application process?
  • What changes has Infosys made in the guidance or instructions the company provides to its employees submitting visa applications?
  • How has the U.S. government's ongoing criminal investigation of Infosys' visa-related activities changed the company's visa policies and procedures?
  • What has been the financial impact of the U.S. government's ongoing criminal investigation of Infosys' visa-related activities?
  • Is Infosys aware of any impending actions against any of its employees as a result of the U.S. government's ongoing criminal investigation?


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Jul 20, 2011 1:04 AM AmericanCitizen AmericanCitizen  says:

This should come as No Surprise at all.  Most H1Bs and L1s from India are totally dishonest in everything they do. While there are a few good coders from India, 4 out of every 5 people from India, ~ 80% of them are Frauds and have to be pink-slipped ASAP and kicked out of out of country. These Jobs should rightfully go to American Citizens. We need to take back our country and Now!

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Jul 20, 2011 1:10 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

How does your link to CNN relates to the Don's story.....

From the CNN link :

"But now I find companies are taking incredible advantage of the economic crisis by combining the work of several people into one position. I have been told outright on interviews that I would be replacing three people and should expect to work 10-hour days and weekends."

He decided not to take-up job because it requires 10hr days and weekend or may be he don't want to replace three people. It is his choice not because of anything related to Infosys.

How about throw your great ideas in Don's posts on "Job Candidates Disqualified Because They're Unemployed?" and "How You Can Help Fix the Unemployed Need Not Apply' Problem"

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Jul 20, 2011 1:19 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to AmericanCitizen

How about getting available jobs for currently unemployed ? your comment doesn't convert into law or practice in real world. Better act on some issue instead of wasteful (hate/stereotype) comments.

Don wants to know your valuable suggestion on his post yesterday "How You Can Help Fix the Unemployed Need Not Apply' Problem" .....put your energy and time in getting something done positively instead of spreading your stereotype comments which does nothing but vent your frustration.

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Jul 20, 2011 1:48 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

So you believe that 10 hour days and weekends  for a low salary is not a situation in part by the wage depression and flood of cheap labor ? Ok. I guess your comment should be a warning then to people as to the attitude of what outsourcers truly feel. The facade of smarmy politless drops sometimes.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:02 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

No it is not in part by the wage depression and flood of cheap labor...if you didn't read that story fully you may want to read it again with open mind...in no place he mentioned cheap labor...

If you are right...that company could have replaced 3 costly labors with 3 cheap labors (as per your perspective). Instead they wanted to recruit US citizen(he doesn't seem to be Indian or on h1b) who may be costly but still economical when he could replace 3 people.

It shows you want to read every replacement in a company as  a H1b resource replacement which fits your own words "The facade of smarmy politless drops sometimes."

To me your perspective shows your attitude of "blame every possible thing on H1b" and just keep throwing hater/stereotype comment on the web.

By the way where is your great ideas on "How You Can Help Fix the Unemployed Need Not Apply' Problem" ? ..oh....you can't blame that issue on h1b...so you can't comment(throw hate/stereotype) about it...

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Jul 20, 2011 2:09 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

The person in the article didn't mention cheap labor but the fact is that is what is in part causing 30 year veterans to be unemployed in the first place.

I think your comprehension skills are lacking a bit.

Here is one great idea that I do believe will help in correcting the kind of lying and deceit that Don's analysis has pointed out: In China it is a capital offense for corporate corruption. I wonder what would happen here if that was one import we brought in...

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Jul 20, 2011 2:14 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to SealTeam6

Just to be clear, this is not my analysis. Phil Houston, the CEO of QVerity, did the analysis.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:16 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Don Tennant

Sorry I realized that mistake right after I posted it. I'd like to see these guys go up against a panel of industry jornalists and analysts without their layers of handlers protecting them for direct contact.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:17 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Don Tennant

Don, do you expect him to read any article fully. He is here just to nothing but to throw his hate/stereotype comments.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:23 AM who knows who knows  says:

What else you can't think....you just throw whatever comes in your mind without using any % of gray matter.

If you didn't read this blog fully (and assumed the whole story is of Don's analysis) and if you didn't read the story you wanted to share here...then why are you here ?

Is it not obvious you are here to just throw your hate/stereotype comments ?

If you have so much of real patronizing attitude try to show that by providing constructive comments.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:26 AM Don Tennant Don Tennant  says: in response to SealTeam6

Yeah, I'd like to see that, too. Big time. The fact that it so rarely happens in the corporate world is what makes an analysis like this so valuable. Certainly, it's not shocking that the executives enaged in deceptive behavior. What's interesting about an analysis like this is that it provides some insight into exactly what the deceptive behavior means.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:29 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Don Tennant

You know if this technology/technique can be incorporated into a camera we might have a whole new business.. reminds me of the Voight-Kampff machine in Blade Runner.

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Jul 20, 2011 2:32 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Don Tennant

Here's what the Voight Kampff machine does (in the film)

"A very advanced form of lie detector that measures contractions of the iris muscle and the presence of invisible airborne particles emitted from the body. The bellows were designed for the latter function and give the machine the menacing air of a sinister insect. The VK is used primarily by Blade Runners to determine if a suspect is truly human by measuring the degree of his empathic response through carefully worded questions and statements."

The Infosys executives might break the machine pushing the readings off the scale.

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Jul 20, 2011 3:24 AM who knows who knows  says:

Scared of whom ? oh..keyboard tigers like you ???

Yep...really really scared...what if keyboard tigers come and get me

And I do keep tally of who posts what so that I can get what construction solution a person can offer to others. Do you have problem with that ? or scared that you get exposed for not providing anything useful to anyone here ?

PS: You are free to ignore my comments too.

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Jul 20, 2011 3:49 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

Ok, here's my solution. Stop the H1-B program . Let the industry reach an equilibrium and see how that goes. This current situation with the economy is like a sick patient being fed drugs that have side effects worse than the illness. the temporary worker program is the drug of dubious value and a boatload of negative side effects. You would agree that in a scientific test you have to first return to a reference state. And means no H1-B or other such coworkers. Let us see the effects of that first before anything else is done.

Your turn.

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Jul 20, 2011 4:37 AM IT_Blogger IT_Blogger  says: in response to SealTeam6

SealTeam6,

I don't believe the veteran software professional's specific employment issue had anything to do with Infosys or H1B visas, at least that's what I gather from reading the first page in the article from the link you posted. It seemed to be more about employers being in a position where they are able to pick and choose any employee they want 'on their conditions'. In any case, he seems to be doing OK as per his own words:

"I can make as much working part-time from my home being self-employed, so I opened up my own company CCS-digital.com, doing web design and selling ink and toner cartridges".

I guess, entrepreneurialism is one way for un-employed professionals to get out of their unfortunate situations.

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Jul 20, 2011 4:54 AM You too are Accountable You too are Accountable  says: in response to who knows

Maybe it is you, entitled H-1b, who has not faced up to your role in displacing highly talented Americans from their careers, homes, medical care, and more.

Face the music, you too are accountable for your part in this fraud.   Who was in your job before you? Where did they go? Why did they leave.

And, on what concrete facts do you base your opinion? 

The fact is guest workers and laid off Americans have more in common than you think. We are all pawns of labor arbitrage.  You may enjoy your visit to America more if you keep an open mind to reality.

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Jul 20, 2011 7:32 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

You keep tally of who posts....? Dude!! Get a life :P

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Jul 20, 2011 8:18 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

OK...cool idea and how are you planning to get it done ?

By writing in Don's blog you think House & Senate members visit this blog and pass a law to ban H1b ?

If at all that happens what you got to lose in this ?

Because you don't own any business and has nothing to lose you can speak loud against business? Your suggestion has no reasoning (with valid supporting data) other than assumption.

If at all you own a business, did you ever tried recruiting H1b resource?

If you had done any of the above then you won't say h1b is cheap, easy to get, super high profit margin to have h1b and they work like slave and also they are that great in work.

Instead of waiting for House, Senate and President to act how about a solution which every single American can act

This is what I would do if I am so mad at immigrants (And if I have a presumed notion of 99% immigrants are fraud and all problems in my country is because of them)

Instead of working for day labor and also collect unemployment insurance, I will gather those 14million unemployed citizens and filter the best and brightest to 2millions (which is more than 1.5millions h1b visa approved so far) across country who can fill all h1 jobs.

List the all companies who are hired/hiring H1b's, get the labor certification data (from flcdatacenter.com) and start applying for those jobs for the salary mentioned in LCA (it will for sure higher than unemployment insurance of $250/week - $400/week). Keep doing this until all H1 gets laid off (and make sure my company gets return ticket for every h1 laid off as per law) and gets back to their home country.

With whole company is filled with only citizens (because as per your view other than citizens everyone else is fraud or participate in fraud)  and now I will request every citizen to actively monitor their respective company for any fraud on other work visas like L1, B1 etc and keep blowing my whistle till all fraud is stopped. And protect my colleague if he/she is reporting to me and who blows the whistle of any fraud to govt.

By doing those I will be happy for getting jobs to fellow citizens, corporate(s) will be happy on getting cheap labors (as per your view on h1b) and finally all immigrants will be out of your country who are main reason behind all the trouble (as per your view).

Why can't US citizen compete with h1b resource in terms of salary (for sure not cheaper than $250/week unemployment benefit) instead of receiving unemployment benefit and/or doing job for minimum wage. No h1b job pays less than $50k/yr due to minimum wage requirement. I know Don mentioned about dignity, but it is no way below when compared to getting unemployment benefit.

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Jul 20, 2011 9:06 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

Your suggested plan of action won't work because once the decision has been made to file the LCA (to get the H-1B), the job is blocked off from any American candidate and American applications will be ignored (just as they are with the PERM) process. They will simply say, the job is not open. Protest that too loud, and you can get arrested or sued. You are making extra work for the HR folks and they hate that. You are asking workers to apply for jobs filled in the previous year to unseat an incumbent, because more recent data is not released.

The jobs are hidden from Americans. The Programmer's Guild once asked for the government to release details about the LCAs that had been filed in a given year. They were filed in April, the cap was met in days, but then the H-1Bs requested can't show up for work until October. So the Programmer's Guild asked for the details of the jobs, so that Americans could apply before the H-1Bs arrived, just as you are suggesting. They were refused. So it's really hard to tell when a job is blocked off for an H-1B in time to do anything about it.

Also, the PERM process states that if a company wants to sponsor a green card for their employee, they have to post his job. In recent years, qualified Americans have been finding and applying for these PERM jobs in such large numbers that lawyers have been warning companies about it (and companies have slowed down filing for green cards). By law, the green card process must stop if a qualified American is found at the PERM stage. But, and here's where it gets weird, there is nothing to force the company to let the foreigner go and give the job to the qualified American. So, jobs earmarked for H-1Bs are effectively legally off limits to American applicants.

What needs to change is that Americans should be sought and recruited FIRST. We need to change this in Washington.

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Jul 20, 2011 9:09 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to You too are Accountable

Your comment:"Face the music, you too are accountable for your part in this fraud.  Who was in your job before you?Where did they go?Why did they leave."

Where did you learn that if a H1b resource replace any citizen it is a fraud ?Can you show us the law which says H1b should not replace US citizen ?

And by the way if at all I say I did not replaced any one in my current or previous employment..will your open mind ready to accept it as a fact ?And if I say currently there are 20+ opening with policy of not to recruit any person who requires visa sponsorship ...will your open mind ready to accept it as a fact ?

Your comment:"The fact is guest workers and laid off Americans have more in common than you think.We are all pawns of labor arbitrage."

Now on what concrete facts do you base your opinion ?

Your comment:" You may enjoy your visit to America more if you keep an open mind to reality."

I am enjoying my stay in America because I receive everything with open mind not with any part of mindset (prejudice, hate, stereotype) which would affect my ability to accept facts.

I joined my (not mine !!!) current job with full understanding that the job I am in is not mine and I assumed that position at will.I won't cry if I get fired from the job, simple reason is that job is not created by me...

I am currently enjoying (continue enjoy) that job and salary because of someone else decided to take risk of creating a company and put trust on my work and me.All his/her interest is towards the company and its earning not on me and my family but on the work I do.The day that company feels I don't add any value (or add earning) or I am super expensive for the job I am doing I have to quit or will be thrown out.Just because I worked in a company for a decade or two doesn't mean they have to tolerate me or feed my quest for earning more with less in return to a company.

When I look for best product for a buck on any thing I buy, how can I expect any company should close their eyes and give me a job without looking for best person (for the job) for a given salary.

I know people who have earned $150 - $200/hr close to a decade back and they are now in a job which pays $50/hr - $75/hr because that particular job had scarcity and now there are tons of people gained experience and ready to work.Why should a company still pay same high premium when they can get people with one third of the cost.

You can see a increase of 10% of salary ($110k instead of $100k) if you send every immigrants in IT field and create artificial demand but in reality when companies has less to spend (or major hit in earnings) they will choose best available option by getting pool of IT resources (which they do using alphabet soup of visas) or simply outsource and have one manager here to manage the project with 10 - 15 working in India.May be you can say ban outsourcing too which is easy to say than doing it.

Some keep saying outsourcing is failed model...but in reality I had seen in my past company which has started with just 300 employees in India and now it has 5000+ in just 10yrs.If it is failed model they should have failed the day they have started or by now...but instead they keep adding more employees in India every day.

Now I had established reasonable trust and contacts here in US if I need to go back to India I can get projects from here and create a company in India and for sure I can be successful there too.

Though I disagree on H1b's, I do agree there is immediate fix needed on L1 and B1 visas which has no control in terms of salary. Reply

Jul 20, 2011 9:09 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to You too are Accountable
I can say with confident if L1 and B1 gets controlled then you can see big difference in corporate behavior.

Disclaimer:The company I work with doesn't have any subsidiary/outsourcing tie-up in India to receive L1 or B1, so any change in those programs doesn't affect my position.

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Jul 20, 2011 9:36 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

And why do you think a company go for H1b ?

What benefit a company get in applying (which involves direct and indirect cost as of today it is $3500 - $7000)  by April and wait till October for the person to appear for Visa interview. If they interview end-up in audit then wait period is indefinite.  One good thing now is H1b is not getting over by 1st day itself.

And if at all he/she gets stamped company has to wait till he/she shows up in US.

And if at all he/she shows up company has to keep their finger crossed and pray everyday for the resource continue with them and don't change employer.

And keep renew every 3 years with out any issue which adds up about $3500 - $7000.

And file for GC (as per your comment no company does that now) which starts with $5000 and again wish for the employee to stay with them because they can use AC21 after 140 approval to change the employer.

When the world is so competitive and no project comes with big margin and big time frame to deliver why would any company will wait for a resource who may or may not join them after 6 months.

Your comment: "You are asking workers to apply for jobs filled in the previous year to unseat an incumbent, because more recent data is not released."

Now you know how much that person getting paid for past 6 months (you can get from flcdatacenter.com gets released every year around Jan - Feb) now you can apply for that position for current salary - $10k (H1b filing fee + return ticket cost for h1b resource), do you think any company can reject that offer if that resource is good enough. They just fire the H1b resource and give that job to US citizen and save $10k every year for that company.

Your comment: "the PERM process states that if a company wants to sponsor a green card for their employee, they have to post his job. In recent years, qualified Americans have been finding and applying for these PERM jobs in such large numbers that lawyers have been warning companies about it (and companies have slowed down filing for green cards)"

Yes, you are right on this part. So if they can't file GC for the resource they can't continue with the resource beyond 6th year. Now you have a list of jobs openings you can hit for sure.

Your Comment: "But, and here's where it gets weird, there is nothing to force the company to let the foreigner go and give the job to the qualified American. So, jobs earmarked for H-1Bs are effectively legally off limits to American applicants"

You are wrong here, after 6years on H1 there is no option for the resource to stay here (other than getting in to MS but who will pay for it and other expenses). He/She has to stay out of US for 1 full year to reapply for H1 again. So there is legal requirement in place to kick the immigrant out, then it is up to the company to fill that position (you can't expect government to mandate filling that position without paying for it).

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Jul 20, 2011 9:40 AM Accountable Accountable  says: in response to who knows

Under current H-1b law, H-1b can and do displace the highly qualified Americans who were forced to train them.  That's the problem.

We are all accountable for what's going on. You too have a role.  I am accountable and that's why I'm fighting as hard as I can to change the law. It is flat out wrong that American citizens are deprived a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country.  The fraud ridden laws and abuse literally mean that Americans never even know about the job openings.  

I expect the citizens of India would be outraged and objecting to these unfair laws that ruin the lives of millions of families.

The end game isn't just best and brightest - having nice toys is great but the real issue is visa fraud and abuse literally deprives highly qualified hard working Americans a fair chance to compete for jobs in our own country - this means they can't put food on the table for their families, can't take a sick child to the doctor, and now homeless families living out of their car.  I wish I was exaggerating, but sadly I'm not. 

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Jul 20, 2011 10:04 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

Reason? A recent study showed that there was an average of $12K less paid to H-1Bs vs. Americans (note, this is average. A few H-1Bs are paid extremely well. Of course, that means that for others ....) So the math is on the H-1B's side, unless they really are rock stars which most of them are not.

I have never heard of an H-1B being let go because a qualified American turned up in response to the PERM ad. In fact, I read the opposite being discussed over on Immigration Voice: that it merely brings the PERM process to a halt.

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Jul 20, 2011 10:18 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Accountable

You are not exaggerating on people struggling and I too wish you are exaggerating on this...

But it is sad see you decided to blame ( such a big issue ) towards few legal immigrants (1.5millions who are future citizens if they get chance) and washing off responsibility of 300millions (US citizens)....

You decided to wash responsibility of people who played gambling in housing market by faking income to get sub-prime mortgage.

You decided to wash responsibility of people who played game to create wars for fake reasons.

You decided to wash responsibility of people who decided to spend the money which they don't have and create a huge deficit (seriously really...you could spend $14trillion without even having a penny in pocket)....

You decided to wash responsibility of people who played role in financial melt down.

You decided to wash responsibility of people who elected (every person eligible to vote) those played in all those major issue.

You decided to wash responsibility of people who decided to buy cheap product (from China) instead of buying US made.

You decided to wash responsibility of people who decided to buy Asian made vehicles instead of buying US made (I own Chevy Aveo..what do you own).

You decided to wash responsibility of people who decided to go for outsourcing to low cost countries.

All you got is those 1.5 million legal immigrant to blame, who are here working legally (I am not talking for/about anyone here on fraud visa) earning in $$$, paying income taxes, social security tax (which they may not enjoy), medicare tax (which they may not enjoy). Is this not over exaggerating about legal immigrants role in this mess.

Adding to all those exaggeration you wanted to see those 1.5 millions to play a part in cleaning this mess who has not rights to question those law makers because they have no rights to cast their vote. If at all they have any voice to fight they would have used it for clearing the mess in GC (loooong wait period) which takes a decade or more to become permanent residence.

Even now you want someone else to fight for your while you take rest in your couch...and working on whom else to blame!!!.

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Jul 20, 2011 10:30 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

Uh, the Toyotas and Hondas you see on the road were made in America by American workers. We threw a fit and Japan saw the light and started building factories here. Very different from India's approach.

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Jul 20, 2011 10:33 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

How about we start with the 1.5 million to clean up the mess...Now let them go back, and then we will look at next steps.

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Jul 20, 2011 10:37 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

So, why can't US citizen (less experiences or interns) go for those jobs which offers $12k less than average ? I see this as companies internal policy to define what is worth for a given position and they don't see that position as h1b position. No way it can make economical or business sense to create a position and wait for 6 months - 1yr for the resource to join (with no certain he will stay with them for long period) just to gain $12k....

I am not sure what do you mean by rock stars....I you mean by talent in coding...I don't think you need to be rock stars to do normal coding with reasonable guidance from a super senior resource.

How (I presume) it works in big companies (I didn't came thorough big company)...

1) Apply for 1000's of h1b every year, and ask the resource to get stamping.

2) Use available h1b's on need basis...bring them in when needed immediately because they already have stamping.

3) Resource has no choice of changing employer without even start working in US, so they now stay with the same employer thinking one fine day they can land in US.

So, really there is no open position when they apply for h1...it is all for future anticipated usage (kind of gambling).

If I am running big corp I won't hunt for h1b's simple reason is it comes with lot of expense and uncertainty (he/she can change job in a month or two).

I will simply go for L1 which is available as blanket (I can get approval and can use for any employee) which has no salary limitation and it gives no option for employee to change without serving notice period (key to bring them back) in home country.

And some use B1 (I have no first hand experience) to get resource to US and pay salary in home country which is super cheap and it can be used for any need of labor less than 6 months tasks.

If at all there is issue in H1, simply give them GC the day company apply for (after proving LCA conditions). Now the resource is free of employer and has no reason to work for $12k less salary than American. It doesn't even need to increase the existing GC numbers...all it needs is remove the country limit which is the whole reason behind taking decade or two to become permanent residence and holds the resource with the same employer.

Also how about posting everyone's salary in respective companies internal website so that everyone knows comparable resource's salary and fight for their right salary. When h1b's salaries are available for public view (in flcdatacenter) why should they hide US citizens salary. Just show them so everyone can fight for right salary or let the company justify the salary difference.

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Jul 20, 2011 10:39 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

Then why does still Prius takes more premium (because of Japan earth quake!!! and you say it is made in US ???) to buy it...

And you are 55% right...but still not 100%...and hope you know the share holding pattern of those companies to know who gain most out of your sale.

"We make them here and they're built by American citizens and increasingly we're designing them here," said Kim Custer, spokesman for the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, which represents Toyota, Mitsubishi, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Isuzu, and Subaru.

"In fact, 55 percent of the vehicles our companies sell here are built here," he said. "More than half of our sales are products made here, and we consider ourselves part of the American auto industry. We have about 95,000 employees around the country."

Read more: www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,465005,00.html#ixzz1ShhY9Vnt

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Jul 20, 2011 10:55 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

And compare that behavior to Indian companies. Has anyone done an audit of the Indian companies that established bases here amid great fanfare? Who did they hire?

And if Americans offer to work for $12K or $20K less, the desperates of the third world will merely lower their asking price. Down, down, down we go.

The vast majority of American IT workers were never overpriced in terms of company profits. Their companies were roaringly successful before the advent of widespread H-1B usage and other forms of global labor arbitrage. Part of it is the widening income gap between the top and the rest of us. Their salaries come from stinting us. And the third world workers offered to help with that process, is how I see it. I don't hold them guiltless.

You still hear a few people complain about overpaid American IT folks, but the myth of the six figure techie was debunked over a decade ago by Washtech.org. The overwhelming majority of American tech workers never made more than a middle class paycheck, if that. On top of that, many were permatemps without benefits or security, even back in the roaring 90s. How some people think we can pauperize our middle class and still have a healthy society is beyond me.

We can't go on paying bills and taxes and buying stuff with no paychecks and broke governments. America needs to care about its own citizens and rebuild the middle class, and stop giving the corporate fatcats and banksters whatever they want.

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Jul 20, 2011 11:13 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

Your comment: "You still hear a few people complain about overpaid American IT folks, but the myth of the six figure techie was debunked over a decade ago by Washtech.org. The overwhelming majority of American tech workers never made more than a middle class paycheck, if that. On top of that, many were permatemps without benefits or security, even back in the roaring 90s. How some people think we can pauperize our middle class and still have a healthy society is beyond me."

   So what is that middle class paycheck ?

  If it so low then why does you keep claiming H1b was paid less and replacing American citizens...what amount is less for you. How much is decent salary according to you ?

Your comment: "America needs to care about its own citizens and rebuild the middle class, and stop giving the corporate fatcats and banksters whatever they want."

But I see all that happening every year and every time and when public really going to wake up from their loooooong sleep. H1b people didn't ask for $1Trillion as bailout money. Still you continue to blame H1 for this mess means...either you are not want to understand the truth or decided to speak lie.

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Jul 20, 2011 11:14 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

"So, why can't US citizen (less experiences or interns) go for those jobs which offers $12k less than average ? I see this as companies internal policy to define what is worth for a given position and they don't see that position as h1b position. No way it can make economical or business sense to create a position and wait for 6 months - 1yr for the resource to join (with no certain he will stay with them for long period) just to gain $12k...."

Indian outsourcing companies actively seek out only H1bs. They first get a blanket petition approved, and fill the available posiitons. They can do this because the law allows them to do so, during the LCA phase. Only when they apply for LC, they have to look for qualified US citizens/legal residents.

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Jul 20, 2011 11:18 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

The damage done by H-1Bs is cumulative and growing. Like most Americans I started out believing that they were really temporary. But our government doesn't even know how many are here now, and ICE doesn't bother rounding them up. After hanging out over on Immigration Voice, I learned that there is a strategy for almost everything, and only two or three times did I see someone told to pack his bags. There is always something they can file, or do.

And there are the overstays, and the over-issuance of visa numbers by the government. And the endless additions to the pool like OPT extensions.

I would estimate that of all the H-1Bs that have ever been admitted, that most of them are still here.

It's not for the third world to step in and say that Joe American is getting paid too much when they don't understand about the bills he has to pay or the public services he has to chip in for. It's really none of their business.

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Jul 20, 2011 11:25 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

What exactly is the point of your tediously long winded postings ? You ask if my government representatives read this blog . Who are you to lecture me in my own country as what I should do ? I don't go to India to lecture Indians on their business ethics (sic) . You are free to tell your own government what to do about Indian business conditions. I will do what I see fit. I would like to see how open the your government is your suggestions. Good luck.The fact is H1-B has opened a door to corruption of a level unseen in American hiring practices since before the EEO days. Does India even have an EEO ? I have seen advertizements for Indian jobs in India where a maximum age limit is boldly stated, something illegal her in the US, atleast officially. Why don't you go back there and fix your own business practices before lecturing me about what I should or shouldn't do

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Jul 20, 2011 11:32 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

Final statements from keyboard tigers...I have nothing to add here...you do what is fit for you and I do what is fit for me.

By the way did you asked me why I lectured you....because you asked for...

Go all the way back to your comment @  Jul 20, 2011 3:49 PM there you gave your solution and said "Your turn."....

Another stereotype comment with nothing else.....

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Jul 20, 2011 11:34 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Dolores

Exactly. The absolute arrogance of this "RangaS" guy is telling where he lectures us on salaries, what we should or shouldn't do etc shows the the utter contempt H1-B holders have to the native workers. Its like because they fooled the system and got in, they feel that they are better. Well the tide is turning.

It took the US 10 long years to fulfill a promise made in the Fall of 2001 this year. People like RangaS I'm sure would have been among those who felt it would never be done. Guess what, it was. This battle is just beginning.

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Jul 20, 2011 11:35 AM who knows who knows  says:

Don, another company of your interest got in law suit...you can get some more insight to share with others....

economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/cognizant-faces-h-1b-visa-abuse-charges-by-us-staff/articleshow/9289938.cms

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Jul 20, 2011 11:39 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

You obviously have no understanding of how to get your thoughts across succinctly. I have had the same experience with H1-B employees who have trouble in communicating effectively and precisely. Writing paragraphs of rambling nonsense is not getting you anywhere.

SO if you are being stereotyped, there is a reason. You fit the analysis that QVerity dissected. To the letter. Talking all over the place. Avoiding the crucial issues. The list goes on. The clock is ticking. I suggest you check return ticket schedules in the near future.

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Jul 20, 2011 11:57 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Wow ! I am shocked , shocked I tell you... Infosys executives lying ? Tell me it isn't so. But seriously is anyone truly surprised at this deduction ? Referring back to what I had said in an earlier post about using the techniques Israeli law enforcement uses to trip up would be terrorists, I am very sure if a journalist who could really get a chance to go one on one in a public forum with one of these guys should be able to dismantle this hokey facade of double speak and denials. But what would the point be unless the revelations are not followed by stronger punitive actions ?

A story here that has become all to common. A veteran software professional now selling toner cartridges out of his home:

money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/news/economy/1107/gallery.job_skills_unemployed/?source=cnn_bin&;hpt=hp_bn3

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Jul 21, 2011 1:37 AM X X  says: in response to SealTeam6

I would not feel comfortable, but will I have control over those decisions, not too sure, if an empowered citizenry like the Americans could see it happen to them, wonder what would happen to Indians. Thanks for the mellow tone though. I was half expecting to be shouted out of the arena. 

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Jul 21, 2011 1:57 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to X

The irony is that the American citizenry has for a long time been complacent when the economy was good. How many countries do you know bestow citizenship on a person just by birth ? I doubt India does that.

The US has been hammered down from the inside by various activists who have made any sense of national pride something to be ashamed of. I doubt India is plagued by such vested groups who would allow the government to get away with gutting the industry as has happened here. India also has the benefit of seeing what such social experimentation has done to the US manufacturing base and workforce.

We're mellow with people who present an honest view, even if they are unpleasant in content. The spin and double speak about the current scheme of things in the outsourcing world as somehow being of benefit to the US (as depicted by the lying and fraudulent companies) just raises our ire. As do posters here who come across as lecturing and patronizing.

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Jul 21, 2011 5:48 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

Your comment: "The damage done by H-1Bs is cumulative and growing. Like most Americans I started out believing that they were really temporary. But our government doesn't even know how many are here now, and ICE doesn't bother rounding them up. After hanging out over on Immigration Voice, I learned that there is a strategy for almost everything, and only two or three times did I see someone told to pack his bags. There is always something they can file, or do."

This is generic complaint with nothing to support. H1b is temporary unless some company file GC for them...ICE has limited resource to roundup every person here illegally and it is every companies responsibility to make sure their resource left the country and if not report it to ICE. I don't think ICE knocks every door (unless any tips got received) to check the validity of overstay. I don't have any data to back-up but still I think hardly 1% - 2% of people who came on H1 would overstay here.

If you don't see people packing their bags it doesn't mean every one on H1 is overstaying. Every one knows any overstaying will close the door for future life in US and if at all some decided to overstay then he/she is simply taking huge risk for nothing.

There is no strategy to overstay...only strategy is stay illegally and make sure not getting caught by cop for any reason which is known for whole world and I don't think you need to learn this from any forum. If at all any strategy you think...it would be valid and legal approach ( Join MS so you can get F1 and stay here legally, change your status to H4 if your spouse has valid h1...etc.,) and I don't see any reason not to try available legal options. You want a person came one h1 to stay only in H1 and if not get out of the country...which sounds right but when there is many legal path to continue in US there is nothing wrong to try those. It is up to USCIS to approve or deny further change of status.

Your Comment: "And there are the overstays, and the over-issuance of visa numbers by the government. And the endless additions to the pool like OPT extensions."

Overstay is there in every visa category...still it is illegal but there is no benefit of overstaying in US (at least to my knowledge). All they can achieve is spend any savings left and live low life like thieves and very few would want that (I can't say no one want that life).

Your comment: "It's not for the third world to step in and say that Joe American is getting paid too much when they don't understand about the bills he has to pay or the public services he has to chip in for. It's really none of their business."

When you want to get those h1b jobs there is two options (from my perspective), either wait for government to take action (which has not time frame) or fill those jobs by accepting the salary offered by H1b's. I am not saying what american citizen should earn....it was just a suggestion for the issue you raised. And by the way how did you concluded that I have no understanding about the bills Americans pay...do you think I can stay here without paying any bills here and chip in for any public services. When America question's about oil and food usage by third world country why would you think American's should be isolated from questions from third world countries...there is American way of saying for this "What you give is what you get".

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Jul 21, 2011 5:57 AM X X  says: in response to who knows

Dont waste your time arguing here mate...I have been following this blog and comments across the last year and no one seems to have changed their positions despite arguing back and forth...I am from the Indian IT industry and despite my interests, I do agree with the Americans here...who should work and how much he gets paid in the their country is their business not anyone else's. The only thing is in a globalized and technologically connected world (the undersea cables setup during early 2000s are the real cause of outsourcing not H1-Bs, a job that does not require human interface can be done anywhere now), jobs have become transient and geographically agnostic, I dont take my job for granted, tomorrow an African country may come up to speed and then India will be overpriced...this debate will go on without a resolution, because there is no single answer..

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Jul 21, 2011 6:10 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

Unfortunately this was still open forum and you have posted your view and I did mine. So far Don' has not put any restriction on what a immigrant can say. If you don't like it...simply ignore it (now don't jump for this...)

If you don't like what I say why you still asking "What exactly is the point of your tediously long winded postings ? "...if you stop questioning I may stop answering (or until Don delete/deactivate my account).

"I would like to see how open the your government is your suggestions. "

No government will be open to any good/bad suggestions if it is not coming from their brain....unless put it in a way it can take it (at least painfully). At this point my government is taking every instructions from Supreme Court and sending their honorable ministers to Jail one by one. It all happened because of very few people fighting government which is good.

"The fact is H1-B has opened a door to corruption of a level unseen in American hiring practices since before the EEO days. Does India even have an EEO ?"

EEO came only by 1964 ....and...it took 188yrs after Independence. Guess what India still has to get out of Reservation system before working EEO and we are just completed 63yrs of Independence will reach EEO in next couple of decades.

"I have seen advertizements for Indian jobs in India where a maximum age limit is boldly stated, something illegal her in the US, atleast officially. Why don't you go back there and fix your own business practices before lecturing me about what I should or shouldn't do"

Thanks for your suggestion India will reach there (EEO age) and let you know when we did.

You asked for my solution and so I shared it...simple...If you don't like it ignore it...don't read it and ask me who are you to say that. I am here legally and I got every rights (other than voting) provided by US law and I don't have to get permission from anyone to put my points in open forum. If you have problem better don't reply to comments (like I keep away from Hireamerican)...also when you are decided to come to open forum better come with some level of maturity otherwise you will get into your nerve for every comment you don't like.

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Jul 21, 2011 6:13 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

"It took the US 10 long years to fulfill a promise made in the Fall of 2001 this year. People like RangaS I'm sure would have been among those who felt it would never be done. Guess what, it was. "

If you can (I feel you won't) let us know what promise was getting fulfilled and how is it going to affect me.

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Jul 21, 2011 6:39 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Whateva:P

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Jul 21, 2011 7:23 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to X

Why you see it as arguing...and as long as it is not getting to ugly it is good to argue...keeping quite doesn't serve any purpose. Everyone shares their point of view here and so do I. It is my responsibility to share H1b's point of view even if someone likes it or not. I may be wrong on certain points and I keep learning everyday by visiting and sharing my views in public forums.

When I see someone stereotype like (all h1 are fraud, all Indians has no ethics,all Indian companies do fraud work)...it is my responsibility to say my point of view (right or wrong is up to every individual reads my comment).

If I was not clear on my point on which created impression that I am trying to say "who should work and how much they gets paid" then may be I should rephrase it. Again, I am not saying what should be paid for whom....just saying to beat the low cost labor there are some options I see and I shared it that all.

As you said no one takes their job granted in this connected world, all kind of restrictions created by government will just add few false sense of security till the corporate(s) figure out different way to keep their earnings. I am already here...so anytime my job can be outsourced to India/China...nothing is assured and no one is taking it as granted.

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Jul 21, 2011 8:24 AM Curious Curious  says: in response to who knows

Ranga which brand keyboard you use? Mine would have damaged 100 times if I were to type so much !

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Jul 21, 2011 8:26 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Curious

It is Dell...but made in Malaysia!!!! www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/images/emoticons/grin.gif"/> is that the reason you could offer nothing but just one line question...I am just curious ?

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Jul 21, 2011 9:55 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

Give your keyboard a rest. You are just typing the same tired old inarticulate ramblings over and over again.

The short answer is this: The H1-B program in not conducive for the US job market to recover. Your job here hence is part of that problem in your current capacity.

The discussion is over.

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Jul 21, 2011 9:56 AM R. Lawson R. Lawson  says: in response to X

I agree with you X.  If the company your with (in the Indian IT industry) can best me through that undersea cable - bravo to you.  The only real issue at that point becomes parity in related laws. 

If countries are willing to trade their currency freely (no manipulation), subscribe to international labor and environmental norms, and provide basic human rights we have little to complain about. 

My belief is that we need to go back to a currency standard backed by gold or some other precious metal - that way currency is simply worth its weight.  Doesn't matter what nation the currency is from what matters is what it is made of and how heavy it is.  That will put an end to manipulation and a fiat currency.

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Jul 21, 2011 10:13 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to R. Lawson

It should be tied to GDP.Gold by itself cannot feed people.

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Jul 21, 2011 11:04 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

I will give rest to keyboard when I need a rest. I have to type same tired old inarticulate ramblings over and over again because of different (or same people with different ID) people keep saying same thing which is not matching with the fact to agree upon.

Your comment: "The short answer is this: The H1-B program in not conducive for the US job market to recover. Your job here hence is part of that problem in your current capacity."

  Job market manages the h1b need very well (historical data speaks the fact) it doesn't require any artificial control and create a sense of managing it. You can see the h1b usage pattern for knowing the fact. Whenever unemployment goes up H1 filing goes down even approved persons won't come to US due to lose of projects which needed them here.

In 2008 H1 applications (for FY 2009 job start) cap reached in a week and they ended up using lottery system to select applications to accept for processing. On those selected applications most didn't turn for visa processing as they have no projects to work on.

In 2009  (for FY 2010 job start) it took 9 months (Dec 21 2009) to reach max cap. Also all accepted applications doesn't convert into H1 approval and all h1 approval doesn't create new labor addition.

In 2010 (for FY 2011 job start) it took 10 months (Jan 26 2011) to reach max  cap. Also all accepted applications doesn't convert into H1 approval and all h1 approval doesn't create new labor addition.

In 2011 (for FY 2012 job start) as of July 07 2011 it got 20,500 for general and 12,800 on MS quota.

Lets see what unemployment numbers shows

In 2008 Jan total unemployed are 7653K and as of June 2011 it is 14087K.

So total unemployment increase count is 6434K where as H1 b (including person moved from OPT to H1) came to US during this time could (because all accepted applications doesn't convert into H1 approval and all h1 approval doesn't create new labor addition) be maximum 255K.

That count 255k is 4% of newly unemployed after 2008 Jan (6434k). And when you get real number of people got approved and came to US it would not be more than 1%- 2%. Because big companies just file H1 and never get the person into US unless they have right project available.

When compare those number with total unemployment rate it could have contributed (if at all H1b is the only reason for unemployment) 0.01% (255k contributes around +/-0.01% change in unemployment rate) and from 2008 Jan - 2011 Jul unemployment rate changed from min 5.0% to 10.1% ....where the 0.01% for whole 2008 - 2011 H1 count and where the total 5.1% change in unemployment.

You are clearly not focusing on reason for the 5.09% additional jobs lost...instead you simply focusing on 0.01% part of it.

It is not small/simple issue to provide short answer with zero fact...it is tragic change of 14087000 peoples life..we can't close the discussion by simply point finger towards a program/people which could have done nothing for this much drastic change...

If we do so then we are just not bothered about those 14million people and just providing injustice to them.

I provided my side of argument with fact instead of simply generalize with no fact to back it up.

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Jul 21, 2011 11:14 AM X X  says: in response to R. Lawson

Always the sane voice..R.Lawson. Not sure how many have read it but if not, people should read "How an economy grows and why it crashes" by Peter Schiff. That will tell you exactly what is wrong with the Western economies and why the problems are not going away anytime soon - stimuli or quantitative easing notwithstanding. Your point on the gold or precious metal backed currency reflects in the book - the de-linking of value of American currency v/s real worth of goods produced in the economy happened when the dollar became the reserve currency of the world. What we have today is a chimera, no one knows the real worth of anything. Oh, I seem to be going into the territory of "lecturing Americans on what to do with their country", just that I am interested in why the world is the way it is and like to share the "light" (not all Indians are evil cheats you know )

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Jul 21, 2011 11:46 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to who knows

Even if it were a small percentage of the US labor force, it is heavily concentrated in just a few professions, with the lion's share being in technology. Since the US has always had plenty of native born technical talent, the use of guestworker visas is just plain crazy.

I would estimate 3 million H-1Bs may be here, and they can so work if they are out of status, they just work under the table or with faked paperwork just like some other illegals have been known to do. Add in the F1s in the disploma mills, H4s, and the other guestworker visas, and who knows how many lost jobs that could be. We can't even get interviews and they're all working here.

And I've always seen H-1Bs and their supporters trying to direct our attention away from them in a manner that probably tells a tale. "Look at all the illegals from south of the border." or "We're not that many, just a drop in the bucket."

No one ever said the H-1B is causing all the unemployment, just certain segments of the white collar section of the unemployed. Go back to Alan Greenspan's comments in 2007 in the Boston Globe - he told us what the plan had been all along.

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Jul 21, 2011 11:54 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to X

jobs have become transient and geographically agnostic

Maybe for armchair theoreticians. There are real world factors that would affect that neutrality. How comfortable would Indians and the Indian government be if banking and financial software for the Mumbai stock exchange was being developed in Pakistan ? In China ? What about the power grid control system ? The air traffic/railway system ? Would you feel comfortable with that ?

It is easy to think that people and products are just interchangeable widgets. But that naive over simplification breaks down when issues of intellectual property, national security and yes, job security enter the picture.

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Jul 21, 2011 12:04 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Now you are spamming...how many times are you going to refer to this article?

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Jul 21, 2011 12:48 PM Uday Uday  says: in response to R. Lawson

Indian currency is openly traded but does not have a capital account convertibility. India runs a current account deficit and not a surplus so overall india imports more than it exports to other countries.

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Jul 22, 2011 2:37 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores

Your Comment:"Even if it were a small percentage of the US labor force, it is heavily concentrated in just a few professions, with the lion's share being in technology.Since the US has always had plenty of native born technical talent, the use of guestworker visas is just plain crazy."

I agree every single drop matters but I disagree every single drop of unemployment is caused by H1b.

I agree there are some frauds in H1b but I disagree every one come on H1 is fraud.

I agree there are some who replace US citizen but I disagree every one come here to replace.And I don't agree in all cases cost of labor was the reason, there are cases where the whole division/project got outsourced due be business doesn't need to maintain big IT division which is not core for them.

Forcing companies to use only a group of available resources would increase cost to that market temporarily (you can see the salaries in India where it gets increased 10 - 15% every year to maintain them) then companies will start looking for full outsourcing (except managers) to bring down the cost.

Your Comment:"I would estimate 3 million H-1Bs may be here, and they can so work if they are out of status, they just work under the table or with faked paperwork just like some other illegals have been known to do.Add in the F1s in the disploma mills, H4s, and the other guestworker visas, and who knows how many lost jobs that could be.We can't even get interviews and they're all working here."

Here you go again€ everyone wants to guess some numbers and never bother to check the facts.What is the basis for your 3 million h1bs are here...from the day H1b program started to till date approved H1b count is 1.5million (you just assumed double of that...I will let you explain how you reached 3 million)....

1.5million is just approved count and how many really came to US will be pure guess.My wild guess would be 75% (after accounting people never came here, people returned in 2 recessions, people returned due to no work and personal reasons) which will be around 1.15million people.

And as of 2010 flcdata (data available from 2000) total h1b application processed and certified is 603708 (this number includes all old &renewal, multiple filing for a person etc).To get real count we need to see approved visa with at least Jan 2011 as end date and that count came down to 203519.Many got GC in last two decades so active h1b resources are just 203519.People who got GC gets to apply for citizenship so unemployment count includes those people (who are citizens by now) too.

Your argument of fake paperwork doesn€™t fit for h1b because they start with right paper work (h1 approval and VISA stamping without which you can't enter US) but it could be out of status and I don€™t see any reasonably educated person with intention to live here would do that.With E-Verify as part of every client work I don€™t think that could even possible unless they work on non IT jobs.Though it is absolutely illegal and there is no valid data to measure the count, better not to assume everyone came on H1 are here illegally.They can get filed GC from their employer which was not that hard a year or two back, so they have very less need to get into illegal mode of working.

And what does H4s has to do anything to unemployment count ?Just because you want to give big dirty picture you decided to add every depends on H1 also doing illegal activity€.is it not stereotyping€.oh€I get it€if it is done by US citizen it is not counted as hate or stereotype comments, it is valid and legitimate claim. Reply

Jul 22, 2011 2:37 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Dolores
When we don€™t know how many H1 are really working at this point how do you know they get interviews and working here, it is full of assumptions filled with stereotype comments.

Your comment:€œAnd I've always seen H-1Bs and their supporters trying to direct our attention away from them in a manner that probably tells a tale."Look at all the illegals from south of the border." or "We're not that many, just a drop in the bucket."€

Another stereotype comment€€all H1bs and supports are mislead you€and you want everyone to believe you can be mislead ?There is issue address it in a right way rather than saying €œall h1bs are illegal, fraud€blah€blah..€.

Your Comment:€œNo one ever said the H-1B is causing all the unemployment, just certain segments of the white collar section of the unemployed.Go back to Alan Greenspan's comments in 2007 in the Boston Globe - he told us what the plan had been all along.€

If not all then how much unemployment is really caused by H1b.

PS:I am ready to stand corrected if any of my data is not correct but I don't buy any vague, stereotype and general arguments it may satisfy that person's ego but does anything good to any suffering community.

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Jul 22, 2011 2:49 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

Unfortunately when someone argues with data the don't get into OCD...but people who keep repeating same thing with nothing to prove shows sign of OCD.

And per your definition every researchers will have OCD and thanks for agreeing that at least I did some research rather than hate,stereotype and hate comments.

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Jul 22, 2011 3:01 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Data is one thing. Your own statistical analysis is something else :P

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Jul 22, 2011 3:41 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

I have to type same tired old inarticulate ramblings over and over againIf it looks like OCD, and quacks like OCD, chances are... The crap you are posting as "analysis" isn't worth the pixels it is using. Check some solid referenced research from the Economic Policy Institute. Check the credentials of the people who have posted articles on the subject there. All subject matter experts. (I've posted it before. I'll post it again for your benefit.). I'd like to see your refutation of that real analysis.www.epi.org/publications/entry/bp280Feel free to check out more publications on the subject of H1 visas and their impact on the US workforce from their site.And for your benefit. I've culled some information about the Institute:The Economic Policy Institute, a nonprofit Washington D.C. think tank, was created in 1986 to broaden the discussion about economic policy to include the interests of low- and middle-income workers. Today, with global competition expanding, wage inequality rising, and the methods and nature of work changing in fundamental ways, it is as crucial as ever that people who work for a living have a voice in the economic discourse. EPI was the first - and remains the premier - think tank to focus on the economic condition of low- and middle-income Americans and their families. Its careful research on the status of American workers has become the gold standard in that field. Its encyclopedic State of Working America, issued every two years since 1988, is stocked in university libraries around the world. EPI researchers, who often testify to Congress and are widely cited in the media, first brought to light the disconnect between pay and productivity that marked the U.S. economy in the 1990s and is now widely recognized as a cause of growing inequality.

Now will you shut up and go away. I think you've embarrassed yourself enough for one lifetime.

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Jul 22, 2011 3:59 AM BT1024 BT1024  says: in response to SealTeam6

When speaking about the impact of the H-1b (L1, abuse of B1) visas on the employment situation in the U.S., one thing that often gets left out in the numbers related to unemployment, is the number of Jobs that are Off-shored (offshore outsourced) - As Ron Hira (RIT Prof and Economics Policy Institute contributor) notes, the H-1B (and L1) is the "outsourcing" visa...

  So, with the H-1B visa being used to offshore American jobs, where are the  statistics on how many American jobs have been offshored, thus adding to our unemployment numbers...Though, nobody (not our government) has any statistics on that topic...

That's one area that "RangaS" fails to take into consideration with his statistical analysis.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:04 AM RangaS RangaS  says: in response to BT1024

I don't get RangaS' contrived numbers game . It almost seems like he rehearses this mumbo jumbo as a set of standard talking points to justify his job here. And if his analysis is anything to go by I daresay his engineering skills probably suck too.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:14 AM BT1024 BT1024  says: in response to RangaS

(I realized this a while ago) Looks like somebody finally realized that you can enter comments on this blog, using an already used username/ID... Wth that out of the bag, hopefully folks don't start performing more "imposter" posts...

One difference between your "RangaS" tag and the other "RangaS" person (the one with the large posts), is that his username/ID has a link to an IT Business edge profile.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:19 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

I doubt you really read the full document...

1st you never read anything before comment and 2nd just providing link to a research doesn't add any credibility to your name....I think you just read the Heading and thought all your trash comments are right. Spend some time to enrich your brain by reading full document rather than make conclusion by heading.

Classic example on how you read anything is there in your comment "Sorry I realized that mistake right after I posted it. I'd like to see these guys go up against a panel of industry jornalists and analysts without their layers of handlers protecting them for direct contact."

I review before write but you just write never even review or back it with any data. Don't say this EPI is what you are talking about, because you spoke nothing related to this EPI research other than used the word H1B and some arrogant statements.

Did I argued H1 program is perfect and requires no change ? I never spoke anything on L1 because you never gets any data for public review.

From your great link "The programs should be overhauled rather than

eliminated. They can, and do, serve as an important way for many highly skilled foreign workers and students to stay here permanently, but that pathway must be improved and expedited (see EPI Policy Brief #257, Bridge to Immigration or Cheap Temporary Labor (Hira 2010)). This report next outlines in detail the major defects in both the H-1B and L-1 visa programs, both of which are ripe for reform."

It speaks about the flaws in the programs and the fixes required not just eliminate. And the solution they offered is (which I agree 100%)

What we should do

To close the loopholes, the law must be rewritten to establish an effective labor market test, such as a labor certification for each application, and include the following principles:

U.S. workers must not be displaced by guest workers, and employers must demonstrate they have looked for and could not ?nd quali?ed U.S. workers;

Guest workers must be paid true market wages, and employers must pay an annual fee equal to 10% of the average annual wage in the occupation;

Employers using guest workers must be subject to random audits to ensure they are ful?lling the obligations contained in their attestations;

Government agencies in charge of these programs the Departments of Homeland Security, Labor, and State-should be granted the authority, and allocated resources, to ensure the programs are operating properly;

When there is more than a temporary shortage of skilled workers and foreign workers are truly needed, we should bring them in permanently; and,

With respect to the L-1 visa, see Costa (2010).

PS: Now you know got embarrassed enough for one lifetime. God bless you :-). When you bought "ITbusinessedge.com" then you get to say "go away" even then you don't get to say "Shut up". Lots of sign of OCD in your comment, get treated (if you have employment and insurance) before it gets your privilege to live along public.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:23 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to BT1024

When you have no data there is no one can provide insight on that area. But in general I assume 50% jobs created in India are jobs shifted from US. And there is no way you can stop outsourcing unless a government gets into protective mode which US is no where near to that thought.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:31 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to BT1024

If it is so much big deal...here you go...changed my display name. Now you have any problem? Changed my Userxxxxx to RangaS because Roy (one sane person) has problem with that display name.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:32 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

The overhaul would be far more expensive in terms of time and effort than to scrap the existing categories and start from scratch. It is like a fire gutted house. You are better off demolishing it and rebuilding.

The US federal and state governments are struggling with budget cuts and other issues. There isn't the time and money to plug all these loopholes because the way it is, no matter how many you plug people always find new ones. Your presence here in the US is an example.

Well, the battle lines are drawn. As you can see you and I are on opposite sides. The efforts of people like Palmer and the rest will one day be borne out when we don't have people like you around clogging the system with garbage.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:39 AM Brian Tallon Brian Tallon  says: in response to who knows

Testing my newly created IT Business Edge profile (The "BT1024" posts that have an IT Bus Edge profile link from here on out are from the Real BT1024)....

In response to your comment, my point wasn't about stopping the offshoring of jobs (though, I would like to see that end or be cut back, though I just saw a report that the numbers have dropped recently)....

My point was that one of that factors driving/contributing to the unemployment numbers in the U.S., is the offshoring of jobs - AND that is related to usage of the H-1B visa (L1 and B1) - as Ron Hira (RIT Prof and EPI member) has studied and also notes in his report, "Offshoring through the H-1B program is so common that it has been dubbed the "outsourcing visa" by India's former commerce minister".

You really seem to try and quell peoples thoughts about any of the topics - H-1B, L1, B1 and offshoring, when somebody even mentions those topics... Your responses come off like "There's nothing you can do about any of this, that's the way it is, so just accept it"  and the typical response of "steer clear of protectionism it's not good for the U.S.", though, india is one of the most "protectionist" countries (as I have even had some indian citizens make that same statement to me).

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Jul 22, 2011 4:45 AM Brian Tallon Brian Tallon  says: in response to who knows

I don't care what username you use (I am not the IT Business Edge Admin/policeman)- now I am confused, are you the first "Rangas" or another - or are you "SaraR" ?

WHY WOULD you change your "userxxxxx" name to "RangaS", if Roy (R. Lawson) has a problem with the display name "RangaS" - were you trying to annoy Roy ?

now back to the topic at hand (what was the topic ?)...

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Jul 22, 2011 4:46 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to Brian Tallon

I've seen the same tactics employed by posters like RangaS (wouldn't be surprised if he posts his bilge on other boards) on other web sites discussing outsourcing et al. You wonder whether companies like Infosys etc use an army of such posters to flood and disrupt any discussion about the detriments of the H1-B system.

I think at this point a civil lawsuit that names Infosys and the others like Cognizant should be filed. The law firm that got the billions from the tobacco industry should be interested. This could be their next big coup.

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Jul 22, 2011 4:52 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

Super flawed argument...if government doesn't have fund just to change/fix the issue how do you believe they have fund to start from scratch. And what makes you to think new program started from scratch won't have any holes. It took 2 decades (1992 - 2011) to reach to a stage where few changes will make sure it closes all abuse.

And as per your EPI report (created by subject matter experts ...as per you) "The programs should be overhauled rather than eliminated. " and you want to disagree your own subject matter experts ????

Now you want to start a new program and take another 2 decade to fix it, great idea...bring it on let see how it looks and how it works.

wow..wow...now you are taking this blog discussion as a war....really...US has fund for another war :-)...your getting funnier after so many comments.

Palmer is one sane person and you want to ride (like your display name ...ride/use someone else effort) on his effort to show you as a part of those personality ? And Palmer never raised credibility of the person came to work...he raised his companies bad business policy which breaks law. When are you going to put effort in understanding anything (this blog, EPI research and Palmer case) before using it in your comments.

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Jul 22, 2011 5:04 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to Brian Tallon

It is simple and easy to update your display name...and you didn't get that so far ?

nah...he had problem with the display name "userxxxxx"...and did my new display name annoyed you...no right ?

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Jul 22, 2011 5:07 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

Sure I can disagree with what constitutes implementation of the plan. When the overhaul reaches a point of being so extensive(as the one Hira proposes) it is up for debate as to whether that is a new H1 law altogether (I believe it is) or is it the old one modified so completely that nothing remains other than the name of the original visa law for political purposes.

What you do is take numbers from the the DOL and try to apply some lame ass "interpretation", based on absolutely nothing but your own imagination as to what those numbers mean without the context they are presented in or the breakdown of the kinds of jobs that were lost (skilled, unskilled etc).

You can have your fun with your incoherent postings. You are funny in a kind of monkey-with-keyboard kind of way. Amusing at first but eventually tiresome. It apparently is your agenda to come to a foreign country and lecture its people on what is good for them . Sure that attitude will eventually catch up with you.

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Jul 22, 2011 5:17 AM BT1024 BT1024  says: in response to who knows

I'm using the "non-IT Business Edge member" method to make this post, because I don't feel like logging back in with my BT1024 IT Business Edge profile...

Anyhow, "SaraR" - I don't get your wise-arse comment about it being easy to update my display name. I NEVER HAD A DISPLAY NAME up until about 4:30pm EST today - BECAUSE I didn't have an IT Bus. Edge profile - I JUST CREATED ONE at 4:30pm EST today.... SO, I did so, by defining a profile name to match the "BT1024" name that I was using via the  "Non-Member/profile" method to post comments (WHICH IS, for each posting, by providing a name, in the "name" field and an email address in the "email address field"....

So, as I noted, I'm using the "non-member" method to make this post, thus my "BT1024" tag does not have a profile link (as was that was the method I've used up until 4:30pm EST today)....

Anyhow, there you go again, around and around in circles with your responses - which is why I have provided you with a "around and around in circles" response...

Hey, have a nice evening, I've got to go and cook my dinner - maybe I'll check back over the weekend and engage in some more fun stuff with you...

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Jul 22, 2011 5:40 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

I know how the new program will be created if at all they does what you propose....they always start from a set of policy (which always have some hole) and change some text here and there based on committee recommendations. And how the committee gets their recommendations...same old lobby group which works for corporate(s). And then rest I leave it to your wild guess what kind of program it will be. They will create minimum of 1000 holes to abuse the program...and take another 2-3 decades to fix one one one...

At least I got some numbers with lame *** interpretation...instead of throw some vague, hater and stereotype comments and provide links which even I didn't bother to read.

And what kind of person would respond to "monkey-with-keyboard"....this if for your wild guess...and the words you use shows you was amused at first and become tiresome, so take some break and have a great weekend.

I am not lecturing anyone here...and that the way you want to look at it why you keep responding...is it not good to ignore me instead of displaying your ignorance/arrogance....

And thanks for your insight about me that was enlightening....

And I am not here to do any character assignation....which has nothing to do with this blog...

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Jul 22, 2011 5:49 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

Palmer is one sane person and you want to ride (like your display name ...ride/use someone else effort) on his effort to show you as a part of those personality ? And Palmer never raised credibility of the person came to work...he raised his companies bad business policy which breaks law.

Forgot to add this coda. And do you know what happened to Palmer after that ? He got a couple of death threats from that esteemed company's employees. Don  blogged about that not too long ago. So apparently Palmer's professional behavior was not responded to in kind by Infosys.

www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/tennant/infosys-whistleblower-receives-another-death-threat/?cs=46662

And you wonder why you are a joke. Yes, this is war. And it was declared by people like the ones who made the death threat and the company they represent.

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Jul 22, 2011 5:51 AM X X  says: in response to SealTeam6

There seem to be fairly virulent people on this board who are wasting everyone's time debating non-issues. I am probably the "enemy", I am in the sales team of one of the large Indian IT providers and I am fairly successful too. However, I am well read, well travelled and have a conscience. Just closed a deal for my company today, luckily, the deals I have won so far havent had "firing" associated with them. I have seen people who were made "redundant" because of some other vendor at my client's office though, still cannot forget that sight and the lady's face. When I read the comments of Americans here, I used to seethe with rage. However, I now get the pain behind them. You would probably want to talk to me more than the H1bs.

On your point of complacence, the first Englishman to visit India was Thomas Roe who came to Emperor Jehangir's court and asked for some trade concessions. This was the 16th century and the Mughal empire was at its peak. The emperor laughed at the strange looking and strangely dressed foreigners and haughtily granted them some land and a port to trade. All successive rulers kept ignoring the Brits who grew from strength to strength till they played one ruler against the other and kept gobbling every kingdom till they eventually became rulers.

In today's world, territorial conquest cannot really happen but weakening of nations through economic devastation would. One thing I know for sure - much of this destruction is self-wrought, and it has to be self-corrected. I am crazy for saying something that may cost me my job - but hey, I have a conscience.

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Jul 22, 2011 6:08 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to X

Having personally been through a layoff where the company brought in H1-B employees and expected the engineers to train them as part of their severance I speak from more than hypothetical conjecture. I walked away, choosing to lose the money rather than play that game. I did have the satisfaction of watching the company fold sometime later due to their stupidity.

Your example of Thomas Roe is a perfect example of the"camel's nose in the tent" analogy. Most great civilizations fall  by the stupidity of their "leader" than by anything else. To modify Eleanor Roosevelt's line "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent", I say that "No country can fail without its cooperation".

This week marked the end of the US manned space program. 50 years of achievements gone with a whimper.  What was once the crown jewel of the US technological prowess is now mothballed and relegated to museum relics. It is now a symbol of America's economic troubles and missteps.

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Jul 22, 2011 6:20 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

I know what happened and I did read that blog too, and you think and believe those keyboard tigers are threat ????

Person of that much courage to stand against big shot will have enough to take care of those keyboard tigers. He stand on his credibility and courage and wish every person with reasonable credibility get courage to blow the whistle to give pain in corporate core people.

By the way is it not easy to trace the source of that email ? even in India they easily trace those kind of culprits (if it is against powerful people only) and bring in front of law...and wonder how could country like US can't ?

No wonder why US went to war on Iraq...just because some anonymous person who has no back bone to face Palmer sent stupid email and the person sent that email has to be punished for attempt murder simple period. Just don't say those stupid emails/people are a reason you to comment as if every immigrant is of same character.

And take the war (if you really have courage) towards those company and who made the death threat...instead of coming to some public blog and claiming you declare war against every person on work visa.

Still wondering how could US has no law to put extra protection for whistle blower at the cost of company.

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Jul 22, 2011 7:01 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

If somebody sent me a death threat repeatedly I think it would be foolish not to concerned. The more troubling thing is it was done by people in his company. Not some anonymous post on a board.

Regarding tracing the email. It all depends on how cooperative Infosys is in letting computer  forensics examine their computers. After the experience of Palmer getting hold of information I somehow think they wouldn't be overly helpful for fear of more stuff being found when detailed scans are doone which show up things like deleted files and emails which might have more potentially incriminating information. I wouldn't put it past them to have wiped everything before handing anything over.

The US went to war with Iran ? News to me. We've done some stupid things but actually that is one thing we haven't done yet. Well Hezbollah is trained in Iran...

You seem to have this idea that war is about planes and bombs.. no .. as "X" pointed out,  it about an insidious invasion and destruction in the US tech job market. It is facilitated by people on both sides.  Until an example is made like of the magnitude of penalizing Infosys to they extent that their US operations are severely curtailed, and they feel the pinch, there can be no letup.

Anyway this thread has run its course.

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Jul 22, 2011 7:54 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to who knows

For all your specious "research",you would be better off looking up "obsessive compulsive disorder".

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Jul 22, 2011 8:29 AM who knows who knows  says: in response to SealTeam6

If any death threat come from my company then I would never worry (but as I am not in Palmer's place to understand his pain) because most IT people are just keyboard tigers.

Is it not Infosys responsibility or legal requirement to provide required details to trace the culprit ? If at all they wiped everything that itself obstruction of justice which is more than enough to bring down more than one in front of law. And I believe Infosys is not that kind enough to protect some unknown person at the cost of getting more troubles.

I stand correct on the typo...I was intend to say war on Iraq...not Iran.

And I don't think the speed Palmer case going on Infosys get more time to clear out any other issues related to visa fraud.

And whatever kind of war you speak it cost...it cost people life,job and dignity.

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Jul 22, 2011 9:33 AM IT_Blogger IT_Blogger  says: in response to hireamerican

Some general observations:

1. Unfortunately, as long as the big corporations wield the power in Congress, they will have their way, which is to do whatever to increase their profits. This will involve a combination of layoffs in high labor markets, outsourcing to cheap labor markets, bringing in cheaper labor from overseas, etc.

2. There is quite a bit of fraud going on in the entire temporary visa-related business (H1, L1, B1, etc). And, thankfully off-late, this has come to light and the powers that be are enlightened and taking appropriate steps to eliminate it. However, not all H1B people are in this category and as someone mentioned, there are a few gems amongst them.

3. I am empathetic to the situation of many American tech professionals who are currently unemployed or under-employed. A temporary, practical suggestion for US citizens in the tech field who are currently unemployed would be for them to try and relocate (anywhere within the country or even overseas). I read somewhere that in China and in parts of the Middle East, caucasians are highly sought after in all kinds of businesses, earning high salaries. I am a US citizen myself and have worked and traveled around the world. The US passport is an extremely potent resource and I think many Americans don't realize that. Go East young man (and young woman) !!!

Finally, please don't shoot the messenger ...

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Jul 22, 2011 9:51 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says: in response to IT_Blogger

Go East young man (and young woman)

Therein lies the rub. Not everybody is "young" (whatever that means in the industry anymore) and able to travel vast distances.

Years ago there was a an adage I heard: "Never piss off a policeman, your waiter/waitress or the IRS". There are good practical reasons for that. I think if the trend of utter callousness of the industry to people who helped build it up continues, I think Wikileaks will suddenly get a lot more in terms of things being swept under the rug. Or baffling outages.

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Jul 22, 2011 10:57 AM SealTeam6 SealTeam6  says:

Return of Mass Layoffs a Grim Sign for U.S. WorkersPutting pressure on an already lousy job market, the mass layoff is making a comeback. In the past week, Cisco, Lockheed Martin and Borders announced a combined 23,000 in job cuts. Those announcements follow 41,432 in planned cuts in June, up 11.6% from May and 5.3% vs. a year earlier, according to Challenger, Gray & Christmas.

finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/return-mass-layoffs-grim-sign-u-workers-190228219.html

Tell me again why we need H1-B and its related ilk ?

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Jul 22, 2011 12:02 PM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

No one cares about the numbers and the analysis you posted. There is absolutely no need to have the H1b program. If there is a shortage, let's train the US workforce. That is what the H1bs do anyway. Most H1bs are 25 year olds and need on the job training.

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Jul 23, 2011 6:10 AM Greasy Greasy  says: in response to who knows

Infosys founder calls for decriminalizing the act of giving a bribe:

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/software-services/Narayana-Murthy-criticised-over-legalising-bribe-comment/articleshow/9333974.cms

He was only endorsing some top official's views apparently !

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Jul 23, 2011 8:09 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to who knows

Those keyboard tigers can aso be mentally instable and act on their threats:P

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Jul 24, 2011 4:09 AM hireamerican hireamerican  says: in response to Concerned_ITGuy

Oh well.....we just need to do an economic boycott of products of these companies. They can sell their wares in the cheap labor market countries and make pennies :P

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Jul 24, 2011 12:29 PM Concerned_ITGuy Concerned_ITGuy  says:

A recent article at marketwatch (link shown below) is concerning. Talks about middle class jobs in jeopardy ... uh oh!

www.marketwatch.com/story/your-well-paid-middle-class-job-is-in-danger-2011-06-16?

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Jul 27, 2011 10:36 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says:

I wonder how many Infy execs are planning to flee the country or have already done so? The criminal organized crime rackets known as Indian bodyshops have commited so many crimes against the American people that they should ALL be locked up and debarred from every using work visas again. This is all about 'payback' by India for Britain's colonization of India 200 years ago. America is being robbed and plundered by these conmen.

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