Can the H-1B Issue Be Discussed in a Civil Manner in an Open Forum?

Don Tennant

This is a challenge for everyone who feels strongly, whether pro or con, about the H-1B visa issue. The challenge is to discuss a recent H-1B-related development without denigrating anyone, without making unsubstantiated accusations against anyone, without belittling any culture or nationality, and without using a snide or mean-spirited tone to express your views.

 

For this exercise, we'll use an article posted on Computerworld.com last week, titled "Hatch Wants White House to Seek H-1B Expansion." It was written by my former colleague Patrick Thibodeau, one of the best reporters in the business, and one who has covered the H-1B issue for years. Here are the key points from Thibodeau's story:

 

  • At a Senate Finance Committee hearing on Feb. 16, Sen. Orrin Hatch, a republican from Utah, expressed the view that one of the things that would "help our country a great deal is to expand the H-1B and allow these Ph.D.s who are educated here, who want to stay here, who are brilliant, who can help us in the high-tech world and other worlds, to stay here."

 

  • Hatch said it's "ridiculous" that the Obama administration has not taken a clear position on the H-1B visa issue. "We are not doing things that we really ought to do to get competitive," Hatch said. "Weigh in on this H-1B thing. That would help us a great deal."

 

  • Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, the sole witness at the hearing, said he agreed with Hatch. "It's just a question about how best to do it," Geithner said.

 

  • In his State of the Union address last month, President Obama said there should be an easier path to immigration for foreign students who graduate with advanced degrees from universities in the United States.

 

  • Rep. Zoe Lofgren, a democrat from California, has drafted a proposal that would create a new employment-based permanent residency category for advanced-degree graduates that would bypass the need for an H-1B visa.

 


There you have it. Now, let's see if this development can be discussed in a civil manner. I welcome you to share your views.



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Feb 23, 2011 1:17 AM Susan Hall Susan Hall  says:

Don, it seems the answer is no.

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Feb 23, 2011 3:31 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says:

Let the facts speak for themselves.

Check twitter.com/usjobsoffshored to see actual USA jobs advertised only in India for USA jobs in YOUR zip code.  

Thank corporate greed and corrupt lawmakers for creating this nightmare.  How many more experienced tech workers and their families will become homeless this winter, living out of their cars of these H1b visa fraud and abuse? The time has come to hold these parties accountable.

I hope these USA job ads that bypass American talent will finally make lawmakers with guts, ethics and conviction stand up, notice, and act.

There are literally thousands of USA jobs posted only in India that Americans NEVER see.... And, they are hard to find because these unscrupulous sites detect US IP addresses and intentionally hide these jobs from American jobseekers.

Hopefully exposing the truth sets us free.

twitter.com/usjobsoffshored

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Feb 23, 2011 7:10 AM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says: in response to Linda

Linda, congrats for being the first American to support segregated recruiting and hiring!  I thought this attitude had faded away after the successful Civil Rights movement.  It did in the South...

More good news: an American company is seeking an HR recruiter. Possibly for the job you are doing?

OPT Recruiter

Experience: 3 - 5 Years

Location: Hyderabad / Secunderabad

Education: UG - Any Graduate - Any Specialization PG - MBA/PGDM - Any Specialization

Industry Type: IT-Software/ Software Services

Role: Recruitment Exec.

Functional Area: HR / Administration, IR

Posted Date:16 Feb

iTech is looking for a OPT recruiter with experience in H1B transfer and OPT hiring. Should be able to acheive targets assigned and maintain profitability with performance. Should have exceptional communication skills in English.

Linda, our teachers have produced American 4th and 8th graders whom outperform their German counterparts in math and science, according to the prestigious international test, TIMMS.  India and China, the 2 countries where companies recruit most from, don't even participate in this test.

But take a look at what a highly unionized teacher workforce in MA & MN produced:

4th Grade Science Scores

1. Singapore: 587

2.  Massachusetts, 571

3. Taiwan: 557

4. Hong Kong: 554

5.  Minnesota: 551

(these 2 states paid to have their data pulled out separately.)

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Feb 23, 2011 7:37 AM jobs4us jobs4us  says: in response to Linda

Hi Linda,

If the US education system is so bad, why do India's students prefer attending American colleges - and by a huge majority?

Feb 23 2011 Mumbai: With nearly 105,000 Indian students in U.S. higher education institutions, the United States hosts nearly three times as many Indian students as the UK.

"Many U.S. institutions rank among the best in the world."

tinyurl.com/indiastudentsinusa

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Feb 23, 2011 8:57 AM mataj mataj  says:

Forget about India. Indian IT industry started to shout shortage somewhere around 2005 or 2007. A couple of examples:

www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/06/india_talent_sh.html

economictimes.indiatimes.com/infotech/software/despite-talent-shortage-in-it-india-will-remain-competitive-infosys/articleshow/6520944.cms

That means, that Indian jobs are being offshored to even cheaper places. The most likely destination is Africa, especially Rwanda (no, I'm not kidding)

www.tradeinvestafrica.com/investment_opportunities/917571.htm

and even North Korea

www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-06/kim-jong-il-bowls-for-murdoch-dollars-with-video-games-made-in-north-korea.html

www.gpic.nl/IT_in_NKorea.pdf

The movable IT jobs (skilled or unskilled, creative or routine, doesn't matter) set out on a journey decades ago. Ever since, they are on eternal quest for their holy grail: The cheapest, the crappiest place on Earth that still has an internet connection. You can only pray that your country will never be in such a bad shape as to attract these jobs.

The IT careers in the developed, and even half-developed world are FUBAR, they aren't even worth a discussion anymore. They should have been included into this list a long time ago:

www.holisticsurvival.com/2010/11/29/job-survival-high-paying-careers-set-to-expire/

So... if you've incurred a student debt studying IT- tough. You've been conned big time into investing enormous amount of money, effort and time into a degree in worthlessness, so that banksters, university complex, and their shills could keep their jobs, and line their pockets.

studentloanbubble.com/

www.studentloanjustice.org/

You better start dealing with this, and forget about H1B. I'ts just a freak side show.

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Feb 23, 2011 9:44 AM Drunken Economist Drunken Economist  says:

There's a reason I call him Mumbai Don. It's because he REALLY reminds me of that old Tojo invention of 'Tokyo Rose'.

Same deal too: as soon as the tide starts turning against him & his ilk, he starts asking for 'civility.'

-Drunky

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Feb 23, 2011 10:13 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Drunken Economist

The truth comes tumbling out

h1bvisatips.com/h1btips.asp

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Feb 23, 2011 10:35 AM Donna Conroy, Director Donna Conroy, Director  says:

Segregating recruiting for US job openings will be discussed in an open forum--usually referred to by journalists as the US Senate. 

Durbin addressed this segregated recruiting on May 7th, 2007 on the Senate floor with these words, "They are not required to make any efforts to recruit American workers for these jobs. In fact, they can explicitly discriminate against American workers who apply for the same jobs by recruiting and hiring only workers from their home country."

Since Don Tennant can't post the facts, IT professionals will.  Here's an important fact: the DOJ is on our side.

The GAO is recommending a re-write of H1-b law. The DOJ wants to add these 3 items to new H1-b legislation:

1. a requirement that companies "hire any equally or better qualified Americans" before recruiting foreign citizens "to insure that US workers are not disadvantaged by the H1-b program."

2. a requirement that the Labor Dept. force companies to post the US job opening on the DOL's website--before accessing these corporate visa programs. The DOJ states, "the web site would help US workers determine if they have been impermissibly replaced by H1-b visa holders and identify employers who may be engaged in a pattern or practice of discrimination against US workers."

3. provide DOJ information in all H1-b educational materials and on the public website about "enforcement of worker protections against citizenship status discrimination, will help insure that US workers who may have been discriminated in favor of H1-b holders are able to vindicate their rights."

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Feb 23, 2011 11:10 AM Dolores Dolores  says:

Dunno why we should be civil. They've been insulting us for decades. And, in a time when America needs to get back to work, we are seeing American-based jobs advertised guess where?

_____________________________________________

www.timesjobs.com/candidate/JobDetailView.html?adId=Vj6cUFaygeFzpSvf+uAgZw==&;bc=INT&searchName=inner&from=submit&txtKeywords=

Industry : IT-Software

About Company : An associate of Infogate technologies Inc USA

Posted Date : 22 Feb, 2011 | Job Id : 50129614

    Apply    Job Summary

Key Skills :

Java/J2EE, Spring,Hibernate,Struts,WebSphere,Oracle,Unix Scripting,PL/SQL Experience:

4 - 8 Years Specialization:

Software Engineer Job Function:

IT/Telecom - Software Industry:

IT-Software Qualification:

Post Graduation - MCA/PGDCA School & Graduation - BE/B.Tech Seeking response from H1B - Ready Candidates .

_________________________________________

www.jobsindia.com/jobsearch/jobdetails.asp?jobid=989059

Accounts Payable & Travel and Expenses/ Accounts Receivable & Cash Application

Prerequisites:

Should have a valid B1 visa (Must)

Should be able to join within 15 days

Should have done Transition in F&A (AP/AR/GL)

Candidates should be flexible to work in shifts

Should have excellent communication skills (Written and Verbal)

Advanced level of proficiency with MS Office

______________________________________________________

Does anyone believe we don't have Java developers and Accounts payable people ready and willing to work here in the US? And the EEOC has launched a probe into the practice of not even interviewing unemployed Americans. CLEAR sign of a long term labor glut in America. We should focus on getting our own people back to work, not being generous to aspiring foreign workers.

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Feb 23, 2011 12:52 PM Linda Linda  says: in response to Dolores

I work for a staffing and outsourcing company. I am from the US and of Caucasian descent. The quality of education here in our country is for the most part not technically nor strategically advantaged. Let's look at the example of the current situation in Wisconsin where the Teachers make an average of $100,000.00 per annum and the 8th graders cannot even pass the Assessments to read at their level. Shame on us, should we leave our country to become one of "IDIOCRACY"? See the movie so named and determine if this is how you want your future to appear; personally I hope I do not live to see the day.

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Feb 23, 2011 12:57 PM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Linda

@Linda: your allegations are both untrue and irrelevant. I am saying that perfectly qualified American job candidates are being brusquely bypassed because they are American, for jobs in America. Americans are loading up on education: the student loan debt bubble is proof, so is the boom in technical certifications. You seem to be saying that it is ok not to consider Americans for jobs in America because they are Americans. That's just crazy. The ONLY thing that will save America is to get Americans back to work in America.

Besides, most of the foreign resumes are more or less fictitious. We already know about their little tricks, such as recruiting fresh graduates and then putting them through mock project exercises and quickie jargon training, then editing their resumes to make them look like they have what it takes. Their remaiing American co-workers know this only too well.

You are using vile,  innacurate stereotypes, produced by people who have a pecuniary motive for ruling out American job candidates, as an excuse for blatent discrimination against Americans in their own land.

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Feb 24, 2011 1:06 AM Rudy Torrent Rudy Torrent  says: in response to Brent Poirier

Brent is a predatory immigration lawyer profiting from the high-tech slave trade.  With vile scum like him around, American kids are discouraged from entering the STEM professions because they know some low-wage, low-skill scab will have a guy let Brent find the loopholes to displace the locals.  Fake LCAs, bogus prevailing wage assertions, and all sorts of garbage is the name of the game for the immigrant lawyer lobby.  There will be karmic retribution for folks like Brent and Don when the American workers rise up against these human traffickers.

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Feb 24, 2011 1:09 AM Tunnel Rat Tunnel Rat  says: in response to Rudy Torrent

How to get an H-1B gig:

LIE LIKE A REAL SCAB!!!!

Tip 5 - Go for the Job Regardless of the Required Skills (yeah, like no shit, lie on the f-ing CV like your life depends on it, which it does, scab)

If you like the job description go for it regardless if you have the technical skills or not. Most likely you will get a functional manager who conducts the interview and manages you. You will be able to easily fool the functional manager in to thinking that you are an expert in the required skill set. Then after getting on the job and making friends with other contractors on the job, you will be able to quickly pick up the skill set on the job without the boss ever knowing that you did not have a clue about the given technology. Therefore if you like the job or the location of the job go for it. If you get fired, not a big deal. There are thousands of H1B contractor positions across the United States. You are not tied down to any geographical location, so you have thousands of jobs at your finger tips.

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Feb 24, 2011 1:23 AM W. Ian Blanton W. Ian Blanton  says:

In a civil manner:

"without belittling any culture or nationality"

71% of all H-1Bs go to Indian nationals. One cannot discuss H-1B without discussing India, since that is where the vast majority of them come from.

"one of the things that would "help our country a great deal is to expand the H-1B"

Doing this for the past 13 years has not helped our country. It's caused the economy to decline. Before we expanded H-1B in 1998 and 2000, the economy was booming.

"and allow these Ph.D.s who are educated here"

Yes, many of them are educated at our expense. The U.S. gov't BORROWS a huge amount of $ each year to pay for degrees for students from India and China. Google "Educating the enemy".

"who want to stay here:

Many of them only want to stay here long enough to send a large amount of $ home and retire there. $60K sent home over 6 years is a small fortune in India due to the exchange rate. NRIs send over $45 BILLION of our wealth home every single year. These people have alliegiances to India, not the USA.

"who are brilliant"

If they are brilliant then why has the economy declined since they came here? In many cases, Americans are training these people to do their jobs. Countries such as India from whence these people come are unable to even produce their own commercial operating system. They're not that brilliant.

"who can help us in the high-tech world and other worlds, to stay here."

Again, we've been hearing this argument for the past 13 years and the economy is yet to improve. The economy was booming before they got here. Evidence suggests they are harming the economy, not helping it.

""We are not doing things that we really ought to do to get competitive," Hatch said."

In 1998, before the mass flood of these people, the USA was the most competitive country on earth. We had no competition in IT. Even the Japanese tried to beat us in IT and failed. Since then, our competitors have been coming here to get educated and gain on-the-job skills so they can return home and then compete against us. Training a foreign workforce in America and then sending them home to compete against us never helps keep America competitive. It helps keep foreign countries competitive.

"In his State of the Union address last month, President Obama said there should be an easier path to immigration for foreign students who graduate with advanced degrees from universities in the United States."

Again, why are we pushing to promote foreign students? We need to educate and support our OWN workers, not foreign students. Many foreign students will come here, get an education, then return home to compete against us. Definitely not good for us.

"Rep. Zoe Lofgren, a democrat from California, has drafted a proposal that would create a new employment-based permanent residency category for advanced-degree graduates that would bypass the need for an H-1B visa."

Another bad idea. Due to historical grievances in many other countries, many of these foreign workers who come here want to keep Americans out of jobs in the USA. I've seen it firsthand time and again. Anti-Americanism is running at an all-time high in the rest of the world these days. Why are we advocating letting foreign people settle here permanently when we've got 13-15 million Americans out of work who can do the jobs? Supporting foreigners instead of Americans is one of the prime causes of our decline.

What we have been doing for 13 years is not working. The economy is not improving. We continue to fly in 100,000 more foreign workers every month, and the unemployment rate keeps creeping up. That means these workers are not creating jobs.

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Feb 24, 2011 1:24 AM W. Ian Blanton W. Ian Blanton  says:

In a civil manner:

"without belittling any culture or nationality"

71% of all H-1Bs go to Indian nationals.One cannot discuss H-1B without discussing India, since that is where the vast majority of them come from.

"one of the things that would "help our country a great deal is to expand the H-1B"

Doing this for the past 13 years has not helped our country.It's caused the economy to decline.Before we expanded H-1B in 1998 and 2000, the economy was booming.

"and allow these Ph.D.s who are educated here"

Yes, many of them are educated at our expense.The U.S.gov't BORROWS a huge amount of $ each year to pay for degrees for students from India and China.Google "Educating the enemy".

"who want to stay here:

Many of them only want to stay here long enough to send a large amount of $ home and retire there.$60K sent home over 6 years is a small fortune in India due to the exchange rate.NRIs send over $45 BILLION of our wealth home every single year.These people have alliegiances to India, not the USA.

"who are brilliant"

If they are brilliant then why has the economy declined since they came here?In many cases, Americans are training these people to do their jobs.Countries such as India from whence these people come are unable to even produce their own commercial operating system.They're not that brilliant.

"who can help us in the high-tech world and other worlds, to stay here."

Again, we've been hearing this argument for the past 13 years and the economy is yet to improve.The economy was booming before they got here.Evidence suggests they are harming the economy, not helping it.

""We are not doing things that we really ought to do to get competitive," Hatch said."

In 1998, before the mass flood of these people, the USA was the most competitive country on earth.We had no competition in IT.Even the Japanese tried to beat us in IT and failed.Since then, our competitors have been coming here to get educated and gain on-the-job skills so they can return home and then compete against us.Training a foreign workforce in America and then sending them home to compete against us never helps keep America competitive.It helps keep foreign countries competitive.

"In his State of the Union address last month, President Obama said there should be an easier path to immigration for foreign students who graduate with advanced degrees from universities in the United States."

Again, why are we pushing to promote foreign students?We need to educate and support our OWN workers, not foreign students.Many foreign students will come here, get an education, then return home to compete against us.Definitely not good for us.

"Rep.Zoe Lofgren, a democrat from California, has drafted a proposal that would create a new employment-based permanent residency category for advanced-degree graduates that would bypass the need for an H-1B visa."

Another bad idea.Due to historical grievances in many other countries, many of these foreign workers who come here want to keep Americans out of jobs in the USA.I've seen it firsthand time and again.Anti-Americanism is running at an all-time high in the rest of the world these days.Why are we advocating letting foreign people settle here permanently when we've got 13-15 million Americans out of work who can do the jobs? Reply

Feb 24, 2011 1:24 AM W. Ian Blanton W. Ian Blanton  says:
Supporting foreigners instead of Americans is one of the prime causes of our decline.

What we have been doing for 13 years is not working.The economy is not improving.We continue to fly in 100,000 more foreign workers every month, and the unemployment rate keeps creeping up.That means these workers are not creating jobs.

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Feb 24, 2011 1:37 AM John C. Welch John C. Welch  says: in response to Linda

There is no education problem in the USA. Americans built the IT industry long before any other countries got involved. In the 2008 International Math Olympiad, Chinese scored #1, Americans scored 2nd, and Indians scored.... um..... 14TH! Does anyone seriously believe we need to import 71% of our H-1Bs from India?

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Feb 24, 2011 1:41 AM John C. Welch John C. Welch  says: in response to Dolores

What this is really all about is the elites. The booming late 90s economy created by American IT workers threatened the elites' power and presitge. Suddenly we were getting more attention than they were. Government became irrelevant, we had a tax surplus, and bankers became irrelevant too. Can't have any of that. No, the once-great American IT profession had to be denigrated and ruined to bring down the American IT worker. Better yet, why not just keep them out of the workforce altogether? Start pumping out news stories about how Americans were stupid, foreign workers we all brilliant and the USA would collapse without them. Well, we've been hearing these lies for over a decade and the economy has collapsed WITH foreign workers. Americans invented IT. If you want the economy to recover, you're going to have to put American IT workers back to work. Period.

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Feb 24, 2011 1:50 AM W. Ian Blanton W. Ian Blanton  says: in response to mataj

A Silicon Valley Executive Calls Indian H-1B Workers Incompetent Cheats and Frauds

vdare.com/letters/tl_102709.htm

"In truth, these are not the best and brightest workers. In many cases involving Indian H-1B holders, they have fake degrees and some have only taken a two-week computer class. Government officials in the Indian town of Bihar recently found 100,000 fake Indian degree certificates. Worse, even legitimate diplomas are useless since the typical Indian degree is from a three-year institution, not four years as required by H-1B standards."

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Feb 24, 2011 2:38 AM Brent Poirier Brent Poirier  says:

We speak of America's competitiveness, our edge in technology. We assume that Americans are responsible for it.One of the lesser-known facts is that a huge amount of our technological advantage is due to talented young foreign nationals.

In our urban areas, kids who grow up in poor neighborhoods want a better life.One way, they discover, is to excel at sports. And they don't just excel -- they become amazing.

The same phenomenon happens in the field of technology. These kids come over here to school, and after they graduate they get one year of work permission.Then they want an H-1B. I have spoken to hundreds of small business owners over the past 25 years, and only one or two said they wanted the foreign workers because they had lower salary expectations. All the rest of them said that they had to have this person, that this person knows the technology, this person created the technology that makes this company click.

Try something. Call your local university. Find a professor in any science department and ask him or her, "How significant is the contribution of foreign researchers to American inventiveness and competitiveness?"  Then call an American entrepreneur, and ask "how important is the inventiveness and the drive of your foreign employees?" You will find that these young foreign professionals are key to America's business development. They deserve credit for America's edge.

From my point of view it is terribly superficial to look at a foreign kid working, and to think "He just took an American's job." If we close our doors to their professionals and investors -- those countries will do the same to us.Then everybody's got trade barriers, and in the name of protecting jobs -- everybody loses. I think that people like Hatch realize that even though we permit tens of thousands of these young professionals to work in America, they are giving far more than they take.They are motivated by the same desire as these kids from the inner city: They want a better life. These professionals come over here from Hong Kong, Mexico, the Philippines -- and they do not take America for granted.They do not take the opportunities America offers to the diligent, for granted.They seize their opportunity.They know that if they want to stay, they don't have to be good -- they have to be great. If they want to stay, they have to jump over very high hurdles to be acknowledged by the immigration authorities as "Aliens of extraordinary ability" or "Outstanding Researchers" -- so that they can get a green card. And though they do it so they can stay here -- who benefits? US. We benefit. Companies started by American entrepreneurs who hire these kids benefit.Over and over they tell me that they cannot do the work without them. The kids are highly motivated, because their getting a green card is what's riding on their job performance, on the uniqueness of their university research, on their patents (how about let's look at how many American products are based on patents filed by foreign professionals? Let's be fair.)

Some of the comment authors complain that these workers send billions of dollars home. Let's take a little deeper look at this. You and I have a terribly hard time making ends meet. On the same salary, these foreign workers not only get by -- they support their families back home.  Reply

Feb 24, 2011 2:38 AM Brent Poirier Brent Poirier  says:
So I have a question: Why is it that we cultivate such resentment against people who demonstrate such a remarkable diligence, industriousness, and devotion to family?

Not only that. The US government recognizes that foreign aid ultimately benefits the USA. The problem is, funneling money through foreign governments often means that huge chunks of it never reaches the people who need it;it's siphoned off by corrupt government officials and their cronies. However, these funds sent abroad by foreign workers to their families, actually reach the grass roots. If you want to look at these hard-earned salaries as foreign aid, then look at it as healthy foreign aid that reaches the right people. From there it helps their whole economy, instead of only benefiting the oligarchs.

If some people take advantage of the system, fine, take appropriate steps.But let's try to take a calm look. Maybe we need a cap on the number of H-1Bs that can go to the citizens of any one country, like we have with green cards, so nobody gets a disproportionate share. On the other hand, we should look at the population statistics, and realize that India is home to a disproportionately large segment of the human race-- so naturally, they will also make up a large segment of the foreign work force.

Finally, I am an immigration lawyer. I'm not a rich lawyer. Most H-1B cases I have done weren't for big corporations, they were for small entrepreneurs, who want the knowlege and drive of these foreign kids so that they can survive. Find out the facts. Contact these companies, contact your universities, find out how valuable these foreign kids are to us. Be fair-minded.

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Feb 24, 2011 3:45 AM Jobs4US Jobs4US  says: in response to Brent Poirier

Brent, just wait until your job gets axed, but before you get your last check you are forced to train your offshore replacements - oh, and sign an agreement that allows your former employer to sue you for no reason whatsoever if you speak the truth about what's happened to you.

Just wait your chances of something happening to you rise as you get older. No one's job is safe, even yours. 

Besides, what's wrong with taking care of our own citizens? People who have paid their dues, their taxes, and many who have risked their lives to defend our freedom. 

Certainly my father a wounded POW didn't fight in foxholes to defend the United States of Microsoft and corporate greed.

We the people, made this great country what it is and what it can become.... Just wait until American tech workers get their day in court.

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Feb 24, 2011 6:04 AM warior warior  says:

Don ! Do you really want a "Civil Manner" here ??? Do you really want peace Don ??? The damage is already done. We will castrate collaborator like you Don  No kidding man.......

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Feb 24, 2011 6:13 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Brent Poirier

These people can get by on lower salaries because they aren't burdened with our student loan debt and other obligations Americans have to assume. The majority of them are single males, who roam from assignment to assignment for international temp agencies, living on the cheap. Because they don't earn our big American salaries, they can't pay our big American bills. So, everywhere across the US, local tax revenues are falling. This means the closure of local facilities (such as libraries), pinching the public schools, and even turning out streetlights, and a decaying social infrastructure.

The vast, vast majority are not Einsteins. They are not here holding rare, difficult jobs that Americans are hard pressed to do. The vast majority are here in entry level or average jobs that Americans used to do and would love to do again. None of these countries allow comparable percentages of ordinary Americans to enter and take up jobs. They know better.

Brent doesn't want us to close our doors to foreign professionals. But to let in the over one million that we have, we have closed our doors to American professionals in America. It's hideously innappropriate to remove the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of Americans and give their jobs away as a form of foreign aid.

Brent's plaint is nothing but a pious fairy tale, full of imaginary legends, mistaken folkloric beliefs about the H-1B program, and a poison apple for American workers.

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Feb 24, 2011 7:13 AM Wakjob Wakjob  says: in response to Brent Poirier

"One of the lesser-known facts is that a huge amount of our technological advantage is due to talented young foreign nationals."

Can you name one technology that foreign nationals invented? How about even one tech company founded entirely by foreign nationals with no American founders. There are no such technologies and companies. Not profitable ojes that aren't being subsidized by VC money anyway.

Those people who come here and work on the same salaries and get by because they live 20 to a 1 room apartment and eat a bowl of rice a day sitting on the floor. If that's what you want America to be, then you're not advocating the best interests of America.

We're going bankrupt for crying out loud. The U.S. BORROWS and then gives away $150 million every single year to India alone. Do you have any idea how many U.S. Companies could be started every year on $150 million?

As someone who lived and worked for 16 years in Silicon Valley (including at Apple), I have seen firsthand what is going kn. These guest workers are cleaning out our economy and producing next to nothing. Strip-mining it. Harvesting it. They see us as a rich country that has piles of $ they can just put their hands into. That's all it is.

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Feb 24, 2011 8:36 AM Obvious Obvious  says:

Well, the major issue with the H-1b is the fact that is not used as promised.  No one is against the best coming to the US. Make the best citizens if they want.  The fact is most H-1bs are not the best  and brightest. Corporations love the program, as it floods the market and lowers wagers. 

1) According go USCIS stats, over 55% of H-1bs are entry level.

2) Most H-1bs work for outsourcing companies

3) Software Engineering has one of the highest white collar unemployment rates, therefore there is obviously no shortage of skilled workers available.

4) Since the induction of the H-1b program there has been a dramatic decrease in skill level of engineers in the US.  The true best and brightest avoid the field now.

People don't like being lied to.  Therefore they are angry about the H-1b program, as well they should be.   I am surprised Don has a hard time understanding this.

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Feb 24, 2011 12:23 PM Rudy Torrent Rudy Torrent  says: in response to Dolores

Don the Douchebag is at it again, trying to inflame the locals so he can call them xenophobes and racists.  Pay little attention to him -- he is feeding at the trough of his corporate benefactors who sponsor this pathetic little website.  He only desires to get the traffic of TechCrunch, etc. but knows that his flame-baiting only goes so far.  Only a sociopath like Mumbai Don would stoop to such levels, like rubbing salt in the wounds of Millions of American techies that have seen their careers destroyed or, at least, negatively impacted, by his sponsors in NASSCOM and the high-tech junta.

Here's a math question, Don.  If STEM pros are so rare that we have to import them from the slums of the 3rd world, why are salaries declining?  Are you such an economic retard that you do not understand the laws of supply and demand?  Or are you to worried about being called politically incorrect that you have to embrace the hordes of marble-mouth retards flooding our IT departments?  "White Man Bad, Brown Man Good" is your mantra, isn't it, douchebag?

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Feb 25, 2011 2:35 AM Jason Martin Jason Martin  says:

What other country would offer such a fast-track to citizenship?  Few other countries offer citizenship at all! 

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Feb 25, 2011 4:07 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Jason Martin

Lovely folks: www.courthousenews.com/2011/02/25/34452.htm

Let's give them the keys to everything. I'm sure this is what's best for America.

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Feb 25, 2011 6:38 AM mataj mataj  says: in response to Wakjob

Those people who come here and work on the same salaries and get by because they live 20 to a 1 room apartment and eat a bowl of rice a day sitting on the floor.

You came pretty close to the essence of the problem here.

Clinton administration made many things wrong. Admitting China to WTO was one of them. Opening trade barriers does not only open the path for the flow of the cheap plastic junk, but to manners and living standard as well. Workforce living in the democratic countries can't compete on the fair terms with the opressed workforce living in the undemocratic regime. Such competition is detrimental to democracy everywhere.

These guest workers are cleaning out our economy and producing next to nothing. Strip-mining it. Harvesting it. They see us as a rich country that has piles of $ they can just put their hands into. That's all it is.

Another good observation, but you shouldn't blame guest workers for it. It's not their fault, it's systematic. You got to take a look at the big picture. It's not the strip-mining of your economy for $, but something far more valuable: Knowledge & experience. $ is just a doomed piece of paper, losing value by the day. It would be pretty stupid from the Chinese to work for that. The real deal here is: "We give you cheap workforce and access to our markets, you give us your technology". That became pretty obvious when Chinese openly demanded electric car technology, and restricted lantanide export when they've been rejected.

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Feb 25, 2011 8:33 AM warior warior  says:

Where is the cowardly castrated dog baiting us into this "Civil Manner" discussion ?

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Feb 26, 2011 6:53 AM mataj mataj  says: in response to Brent Poirier

One of the lesser-known facts is that a huge amount of our technological advantage is due to talented young foreign nationals.

Technological advantage isn't yours anymore. It belongs to the multinational corporations.

We speak of America's competitiveness, our edge in technology.

It's not about competitiveness, it's about the world "Who's gonna work for less" championship. Not the kind of competition I'd like to win.

Try something.  Call your local university.  Find a professor in any science department and ask him or her, "How significant is the contribution of foreign researchers to American inventiveness and competitiveness?"

I'd rather ask him or her: "How significant are mendacious IT talent shortage shouting and usurious student loans to your job and salary?"

Movable jobs WILL move to the cheapest place in the world, and the only thing that can stop that is WWIII. When jobs move, they also take R&D, universities, and everything else with them after a while. Since the first IT jobs were offshored some 20, 30 years ago, it looks like that time has arrived. Naturally, the US universities won't go down quietly, nobody does, but finally they will have to face the reality, just like everybody else. Degree, that doesn't pay student loan is even worse personal disaster than losing entire savings to pump&dump scam.

Finally, I am an immigration lawyer.

Back there around 1998, a younger colleague of mine got a job offer from the USA. He considered the whole thing very carefully, and found out that, taken everything into account, it's not worth it. Sure, his salary would be considerably higher, but not so high as to justify the risks:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Risks_for_employees

His comment was: "As a matter of fact, I'd lose half of my civil liberties. Even a traffic cop could have my visa revoked, if he wouldn't like my face. I could get expelled in a matter of days." And that was before 9/11. Naturally, he rejected the offer.

Were my colleague's hesitations justified? If this is the case, this could actually be the essence of the problem with H1B. If part of the workforce can't compete on fair terms, it depresses everyone's wages.

Since you are an immigration lawyer, I'd really like to hear your opinion.

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Mar 1, 2011 3:54 AM Ginny Ginny  says: in response to Linda

Linda,

You are lying about teachers making 100k on average.

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Mar 2, 2011 7:28 AM paid a ton paid a ton  says: in response to W. Ian Blanton

"Yes, many of them are educated at our expense."

That's a total baseless statement. I paid out of my pocket 15000$ per semester for 4 semesters by taking loans in India and the so called 60k over 6 years is still not enough to pay back all that money. I am yet to see ROI. And I represent 85% of students who come here to study.

My College has built a new campus within 5 years of my arrival, oh how did that happen? Who pumped all that money? Corporates? Tax money? Nope students like me. And it is still happening.

Target these schools and target the greedy corporates. blocking H1B CANNOT solve anything.

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Mar 2, 2011 7:36 AM paid a ton paid a ton  says: in response to John C. Welch

John, good you brought a very nice point.

Americans scored #2. And what is the ethnicity of these "Americans"?

Shaunak Kishore - Indian descent.

Krishanu Sankar - Indian descent.

If their parents did not come here on H1B years ago, then your team may not have made that #2. Go figure.

And others don't seem American by their names. If you can seriously define American please do. I am all ears.

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Mar 3, 2011 3:28 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to paid a ton

@paid a ton: An American of Indian descent is still an American, a rightful partaker of American culture and education. This is not about race, though you seem to be suggesting that Indians are inherently more intelligent than the rest of the world, while it has been established over and over again that they are not. In fact, your observation and racial chauvanism is a fine example of what Americans have gotten so tired of. We are tired of being ranted at by obnoxious, racist, opportunitstic and greedy foreigners who keep telling us to hand over our jobs and our incomes. They rant that we get paid too much when they are clueless beyond belief about all the things our income must pay for (hint: all the things that make so many Indians want to come live in America, like sewage, pavement, and clean water). To this type of foreigner, America is just one great big pot of gold and they just want to stick their hands in, without any idea of who worked how hard to make it such a nice place, and the values and culture that make it possible. I was raised to admire India and think well of Indians. What has changed my mind is experiences with people such as this. My company does not accept foreign resumes. I'm interested in putting Americans back to work in their own country. Too bad for you. We have let in way too many H-1Bs over the last decade, and that has become obvious to the common citizen at last.

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Mar 3, 2011 7:56 AM Paid a ton Paid a ton  says: in response to Dolores

@Dolores I did not and was not suggesting that Indians are more intelligent than the rest of the world. That is pure creation of your imagination/previous experience.

My retort was purely in response that Indians (yes the race) are not as smart as Americans by giving Math Olympiad comparison is laughable. If your talk is NOT about ethnicity but about American spirit then I will be the first among Indians to appreciate what fellow Americans do to other Americans and even to guests.

Your zeal to put Americans back to work in their own country is very noble cause.

But you are concentrating on the 10% problem while ignoring the remaining 90%. The real problems are

1. Eagerness of corporates to ship jobs to outside countries whether H1Bs in US are recruited or not. They are gearing up for that VERY reason that they are well prepared to NOT get impacted when the final curtain falls on H1B.

If and when it does, then it will not be One American who will be recruited but 3 people for the same cost have already been recruited and trained elsewhere.

2. Eagerness of body shoppers who pay the so called H1Bs 30% of what they charge the clients. And they themselves do nothing but play golf with the H1Bs money.

3. Eagerness of Educational institutions to make tons of money on International students by wooing them with "higher education". Obviously international students want their investment back.

And if you cannot take my message in positive light, but will use my statements out of context then Good luck with your war.

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Mar 4, 2011 11:35 AM Geoffrey Wehrman Geoffrey Wehrman  says: in response to Ginny

According to www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/wisconsin.html

"In Wisconsin, teaching salaries averaged $52,644 in 2009-10, according to the National Education Association."

Teaching salaries aside, the more PhDs and advanced degree holders we can attract to our country, the better off we will be as a whole.  The United States was founded on the principal of freedom, not by Native Americans, but by foreigners who took the land from the natives.  I was born in the United States as a citizen.  I have had many more opportunities for education than most H1-B visa holders.

Further, it is the PhD and advanced degree holders that create jobs in this nation.  Knowledge is power, and we should want to bring as much knowledge as we can into our country.

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Mar 7, 2011 9:54 AM Dolores Dolores  says: in response to Geoffrey Wehrman

Oh, yeah, a few of them start companies and create jobs. But mostly not jobs for Americans. Often, their companies become vehicles for bringing in more of their own folks, or someone else. And what about our own unemployed and underemployed advanced degree holders? It's getting harder and harder to pay off those student loans.

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Apr 1, 2011 1:21 AM tdbear tdbear  says: in response to Brent Poirier

If you think it's such a great idea to have a multi-million invasion of coolie workers

let's do the same for lawyers. Let's let any coolie lawyer just get on a plane and

setup shop. Forgot those pestky local rules requiring a local lawyer no they are

such experts they don't need apply. Yeah I know USA and UK firms are coolie sourcing paralegal work but let's no stop there, why pay $100-1000/hr when

Rajit can do better for only $10-80/hr tops? Just think of the consumer that can now afford access to courts and sue firms like the guy in AL is doing over coolie

not paying taxes, fraud etc.

Ever notice the bar associations aren't pushing this concept but many of their

members are come out of the wood work to push it on other professions?

We know the facts:

1) 71% of H1b are low skilled coolies from a hand full of coolie land coolie sourcing firms

2) At least 18% of them have committed visa fraud per the gov't agency that

reviews the visa requests

3) The ONLY REASON THEY ARE HERE IS TO DRIVE DOWN WAGES AS THEY

ONLY GET JOBS THAT PAY LESS THEN THOSE WHO HELD THE SAME JOB.

We need to end the H! and L visa programs and crackdown on B visa abuse.

along with zero tolerance of hiring illegal aliens. If we upped the fines to $5M

per illegal alien hired, and had mandatory prison time it wouldn't be a few

month before we would be at 3% unemployment, housing and state funding

crisis would be over.

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Jul 21, 2011 6:10 AM Taaza Taaza  says:

People still are searching jobs in US. Its again a brain drain for India. People must stay in their country and should think about it.

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